Re: Revive 11/34

[william degnan via cctalk]

On Dec 12, 2017 3:41 AM, "Mattis Lind via cctech" 
wrote:
>
> There has been plenty of good suggestions already.
>
> If I were you I would:
>
> 1. Check voltages from the PSU as mentioned previously.
> 2. Check AC LO / DC LO signals as Bill mentioned.
> 3. Strip out every card on the bus except of the terminator boards and the
> M7859 programmers console.
> 4. Put the console in maintenance mode and check that the BUS itself is
OK.
> (http://retrocmp.com/tools/pdp-1134-programmers-console)
> 5. Add more cards, like serial board M7856 or whatever and then use the
> programmers console to probe it.
> 6. Add memory and check a few locations from the programmers console.
> 7. Add the CPU and check that you can read the PSW register at 76  and
> the internal registers starting at 00.
>
> Since the programmers console has its own 8008 on board it is a quite
> powerful tool to diagnose the Unibus and the peripherals even without the
> CPU is present or running.
>
> But note that the M7859 might fail. One of my M7859 had failed and it took
> a while to repair. OC drivers, flip flops and registers was bad. Here is
my
> story :
>
http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-11-04---s-n-ag03092

Here's one more... if possible find a working 11/34 and perform a
diagnostic procedure or measurement there and take notes, then repeat on
your system.  That, and swapping known-working boards when available will
help pinpoint problems where they exist.
Bill

Re: Revive 11/34

[Mattis Lind via cctalk]

There has been plenty of good suggestions already.

If I were you I would:

1. Check voltages from the PSU as mentioned previously.
2. Check AC LO / DC LO signals as Bill mentioned.
3. Strip out every card on the bus except of the terminator boards and the
M7859 programmers console.
4. Put the console in maintenance mode and check that the BUS itself is OK.
(http://retrocmp.com/tools/pdp-1134-programmers-console)
5. Add more cards, like serial board M7856 or whatever and then use the
programmers console to probe it.
6. Add memory and check a few locations from the programmers console.
7. Add the CPU and check that you can read the PSW register at 76  and
the internal registers starting at 00.

Since the programmers console has its own 8008 on board it is a quite
powerful tool to diagnose the Unibus and the peripherals even without the
CPU is present or running.

But note that the M7859 might fail. One of my M7859 had failed and it took
a while to repair. OC drivers, flip flops and registers was bad. Here is my
story :
http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-11-04---s-n-ag03092

RE: Revive 11/34

[william degnan via cctalk]

> >>
> >> Any suggestions as to what to try first?  I may have the bus grant in
backwards.  I have other boards I can try.
> >>

For an 11/34A can one test for DC LO / AC LO?  If so and you don't get the
correct reading that's a show stopper right there.  Remove all but the
essential cards, terminate the UNIBUS to the shortest poss. size and least
RAM.  I no longer have an 11/34A but there are a lot of similarities to the
11/40.  Many cards interchangable.

Bill

Re: Revive 11/34

[william degnan via cctalk]

Ray Fantini knows the 11/34 very well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU8DOKVxDJ8

He helped me with UNIBUS diagnosis.
I am sure you have seen this:
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/

I would definitely start with the power supply and work my way through the
voltage regulators, etc.  If you already did this, I apologize for missing
that you mentioned.

BIll

On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 8:15 AM, william degnan 
wrote:

>
> > >>
> > >> Any suggestions as to what to try first?  I may have the bus grant in
> backwards.  I have other boards I can try.
> > >>
>
> For an 11/34A can one test for DC LO / AC LO?  If so and you don't get the
> correct reading that's a show stopper right there.  Remove all but the
> essential cards, terminate the UNIBUS to the shortest poss. size and least
> RAM.  I no longer have an 11/34A but there are a lot of similarities to the
> 11/40.  Many cards interchangable.
>
> Bill
>

Re: Revive 11/34

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Henk Gooijen

> the M7859 is sort of a UNIBUS device. The (front panel) console only
> communicates with the M7859.

Not quite; it does _mostly_ 'do its thing' over the UNIBUS, but there are
also two special lines carried across the DD11-P backplane to the CPU, 'Halt
Request' and 'Halt Grant' (which is why it has to be in the same backplane as
the CPU); more here:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/KY11-LB_Programmer%27s_Console

> I cannot remember whether a demux for the displays is on the console
> PCB, or on the M7859.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'demux', but... the interface between
the board and console is i) 3 bits of digit, and ii) 6 individual select
lines. Code in the micro on the M7859 sends one digit at a time down the 3
'digit' lines, along with the appropriate 'select' line.


> If you get 00 on the dsipaly and when halted it shows 173066 I
> presume it is looping.

Well, I haven't looked at the M9312 ROM code, but if it's anything like the
M9301 code (which I have dumped and disassembled), looping in the ROM at
173066 is not necessarily bad.

There is a listing of some of the ROM code on BitSavers:

  http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/unibus/K-SP-M9312-0-5_Aug78.pdf

but it doesn't seem to cover the stuff at 173000 (which is where the CPU
starts running on power-on) - or maybe I just didn't study the listings
carefully enough.

> If it loops, it will repeatedly read from a device address which is
> most likely the CSR of the boot device.

Depends on the switch settings on the M9312. If it's set to boot, if the
device is there, yes; otherwise it would get a NXM fault. If it's set to go
into the console mode, it's probably trying to read characters (commands)
from the console.

Noel

Re: Revive 11/34

[John Welch via cctalk]

I also have an 11/04 that I went and drug out.  It is configured like this:

11/04:
   AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF 
(Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M7263] (Front/Keypad/DC ON)
 2 [M7847] 
 3 [M7859] 
 4 [M7847] 
 5 GNT 
 6 [M7762] 
 7 [M7840] 
 8 [DILOG] 
 9   {nothing} 
   AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF 
I am thinking I could put a M9203/M7856 into slot 9, and find a M9312 
for slot 3 and maybe this would fire up.  Any suggestions?



On 12/8/2017 3:50 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:

On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:25 PM, John Welch via cctech  wrote:

I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are:

Back/Fans [M8266]  Front of machine where keypad is.

   [M8265]

   [M9312] [M7859]

   [M7762]

   [OPEN]  [M7860]

   [M7840]

   Bus grant in third from front slot

   [M9302] [M7856]
The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running XP

When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered off, 
then back on, and now it says '5'

Any suggestions as to what to try first?  I may have the bus grant in 
backwards.  I have other boards I can try.

Sincerely,
John Welch
:qw


1) The G727A bus grant card is keyed (somewhat). It should be in Row D 
(fourth from the back)
  It won’t seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped 
knuckles remember.

  You can temporarily pull it out to finish the check out.  There’s nothing 
past the
   M7840 that requires DMA.

2) Check the baud rate, stop bits and parity settings on both the Hyperterminal 
and the M785 to make sure they match.
  
3)  Are you seeing a single 7 or 5 on  KY11-LB Programmer Console or on the Hyperterminal?
  
  An other status led’s lit on the KY11-LB?


4) I don’t see any memory listed…  Do you have any M7847’s?

5) Grab a copy of EK-11034-UG-001 PDP-11-34 System User’s Manual for more info.


Jerry



--
Sincerely,
John Welch
281-353-4706 Home
713-725-7017 Cell
:qw

Re: Revive 11/34

[JCWelch via cctalk]

I added an M9302 in Slot9-AB and then moved the M7856 from the 11/34 to 
Slot9-CDEF of the 11/04.  I put a random M9312 in Slot3-AB I turned on the 
11/04.

I have six ‘0’ digits.  I push ctrl+hlt and the display shows 173066.  Looks 
like things are moving.

The ultimate goal is to hook this unit to an RL02, possibility an RX02, a 
console, and then image some RL02 disks.

I need to determine the console line settings and what M9312 with what boot 
ROMs makes sense.  Off to the ranch to see if I can dig a VT100 out of a barn.

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 9, 2017, at 5:07 AM, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooi...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Ahh, that M9203 in slot 9, positions A – B, sounds more familiar (or is it 
M9302?)
The M7856 is often in slot 9 position C – F, when used as console.
Interesting, the 11/04 also has that M7840 installed. Could you pull that board 
(uhmmm, you did), and have a look at the texts in the etch? The “older” boards 
(UNIBUS, and many QBUS too) had a function identificaltion in the etch. Like 
the M7856, which says (IIRC) “SLU & RTC”. Maybe the identification in the Field 
Guide is wrong …
 
Before powering up the 11/04, I would do a thorough mechanical check of it, as 
many times described here … for example: loose screws in the box (took out my 
11/35 arghh, working on a repair!), cables not properly seated, dust and other 
things that should not be there. Just an overal inspection. You could makes 
notes of where the boards are placed and take a picture. Then remove the boards 
(observe ESD guide lines), turn on the power and check the voltages from the 
regulators. Easiest way to do that is removing the bottom cover.  Then you can 
check the voltages on the connection points at the rear end of the 
backplane(s). If needed, adjust the output voltage(s).
Turn off, and wait (measure!) that all voltages have dropped to near zero. 
Install the boards again, connect a terminal and proceed …
 
Back to the 11/34A.
I haven’t turned on my 11/34 for some time, so I forgot whether the 7-segment 
display has 6 or 7 digits.
But what I do know is that they are always all 6 (or 7) on. If that is not the 
case, there is definitely something wrong.
 
Van: cctech <cctech-boun...@classiccmp.org> namens John Welch via cctech 
<cct...@classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: Saturday, December 9, 2017 12:49:01 AM
Aan: Jerry Weiss; cct...@classiccmp.org
Onderwerp: Re: Revive 11/34
 
I also have an 11/04 that I went and drug out.  It is configured like this:

11/04:
   AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF 
(Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M7263] (Front/Keypad/DC ON)
 2 [M7847] 
 3 [M7859] 
 4 [M7847] 
 5 GNT 
 6 [M7762] 
 7 [M7840] 
 8 [DILOG] 
 9   {nothing} 
   AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF 
I am thinking I could put a M9203/M7856 into slot 9, and find a M9312 
for slot 3 and maybe this would fire up.  Any suggestions?


On 12/8/2017 3:50 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:
> On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:25 PM, John Welch via cctech <cct...@classiccmp.org> 
> wrote:
>> I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are:
>>
>> Back/Fans [M8266]  Front of machine where keypad is.
>>
>>[M8265]
>>
>>[M9312] [M7859]
>>
>>[M7762]
>>
>>[OPEN]  [M7860]
>>
>>[M7840]
>>
>>Bus grant in third from front slot
>>
>>[M9302] [M7856]
>> The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running 
>> XP
>>
>> When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered off, 
>> then back on, and now it says '5'
>>
>> Any suggestions as to what to try first?  I may have the bus grant in 
>> backwards.  I have other boards I can try.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> John Welch
>> :qw
>
> 1) The G727A bus grant card is keyed (somewhat). It should be in Row D 
> (fourth from the back)
>   It won’t seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped 
> knuckles remember.
>
>   You can temporarily pull it out to finish the check out.  There’s 
> nothing past the
>M7840 that requires DMA.
>
> 2) Check the baud rate, stop bits and parity settings on both the 
> Hyperterminal and the M785 to make sure they match.
>   
> 3)  Are you seeing a single 7 or 5 on  KY11-LB P

RE: Revive 11/34

[Henk Gooijen via cctalk]

Ahh, that M9203 in slot 9, positions A – B, sounds more familiar (or is it 
M9302?)

The M7856 is often in slot 9 position C – F, when used as console.

Interesting, the 11/04 also has that M7840 installed. Could you pull that board 
(uhmmm, you did), and have a look at the texts in the etch? The “older” boards 
(UNIBUS, and many QBUS too) had a function identificaltion in the etch. Like 
the M7856, which says (IIRC) “SLU & RTC”. Maybe the identification in the Field 
Guide is wrong …



Before powering up the 11/04, I would do a thorough mechanical check of it, as 
many times described here … for example: loose screws in the box (took out my 
11/35 arghh, working on a repair!), cables not properly seated, dust and other 
things that should not be there. Just an overal inspection. You could makes 
notes of where the boards are placed and take a picture. Then remove the boards 
(observe ESD guide lines), turn on the power and check the voltages from the 
regulators. Easiest way to do that is removing the bottom cover.  Then you can 
check the voltages on the connection points at the rear end of the 
backplane(s). If needed, adjust the output voltage(s).

Turn off, and wait (measure!) that all voltages have dropped to near zero. 
Install the boards again, connect a terminal and proceed …



Back to the 11/34A.

I haven’t turned on my 11/34 for some time, so I forgot whether the 7-segment 
display has 6 or 7 digits.

But what I do know is that they are always all 6 (or 7) on. If that is not the 
case, there is definitely something wrong.




Van: cctech <cctech-boun...@classiccmp.org> namens John Welch via cctech 
<cct...@classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: Saturday, December 9, 2017 12:49:01 AM
Aan: Jerry Weiss; cct...@classiccmp.org
Onderwerp: Re: Revive 11/34

I also have an 11/04 that I went and drug out.  It is configured like this:

11/04:
   AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF 
(Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M7263] (Front/Keypad/DC ON)
 2 [M7847] 
 3 [M7859] 
 4 [M7847] 
 5 GNT 
 6 [M7762] 
 7 [M7840] 
 8 [DILOG] 
 9   {nothing} 
   AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF 
I am thinking I could put a M9203/M7856 into slot 9, and find a M9312
for slot 3 and maybe this would fire up.  Any suggestions?


On 12/8/2017 3:50 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:
> On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:25 PM, John Welch via cctech <cct...@classiccmp.org> 
> wrote:
>> I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are:
>>
>> Back/Fans [M8266]  Front of machine where keypad is.
>>
>>[M8265]
>>
>>[M9312] [M7859]
>>
>>[M7762]
>>
>>[OPEN]  [M7860]
>>
>>[M7840]
>>
>>Bus grant in third from front slot
>>
>>[M9302] [M7856]
>> The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running 
>> XP
>>
>> When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered off, 
>> then back on, and now it says '5'
>>
>> Any suggestions as to what to try first?  I may have the bus grant in 
>> backwards.  I have other boards I can try.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> John Welch
>> :qw
>
> 1) The G727A bus grant card is keyed (somewhat). It should be in Row D 
> (fourth from the back)
>   It won’t seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped 
> knuckles remember.
>
>   You can temporarily pull it out to finish the check out.  There’s 
> nothing past the
>M7840 that requires DMA.
>
> 2) Check the baud rate, stop bits and parity settings on both the 
> Hyperterminal and the M785 to make sure they match.
>
> 3)  Are you seeing a single 7 or 5 on  KY11-LB Programmer Console or on the 
> Hyperterminal?
>
>   An other status led’s lit on the KY11-LB?
>
> 4) I don’t see any memory listed…  Do you have any M7847’s?
>
> 5) Grab a copy of EK-11034-UG-001 PDP-11-34 System User’s Manual for more 
> info.
>
>
> Jerry
>

--
Sincerely,
John Welch
281-353-4706 Home
713-725-7017 Cell
:qw

Fwd: Re: Revive 11/34

[John Welch via cctalk]

Update:

This is the map of the machine:


   AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF 
(Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M8266] (Front/Keypad/DC ON)
 2 [M8265] 
 3 [M9312] [M7859] 
 4 [M7891] 
 5 [M7762] 
 6 [M7860] 
 7 [M7840] 
 8 GNT 
 9 [M9302] [M7856] 
   AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF 

Reseating the ribbon cable on the M7859 changed the display.  I have 
replaced the M7840 with a G7273.


Now when I power on it says (dim)0, (bright)0, blank, (dim)0, blank, blank.

I have reseated the M7859, I don't think I have another one.

Maybe I should hit it with a vacuum.

I had forgotten about needing to cut a wire for DMA.  Can you give me a 
refresher on how to tell which slots are cut?  I remember having to turn 
the chassis over and looking for a particular wire but that was >15 
years ago.

On 12/8/2017 3:17 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Van: John Welch via cctech
> Verzonden: vrijdag 8 december 2017 21:25
> Aan: cct...@classiccmp.org
> Onderwerp: Revive 11/34
>
>
>
> I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are:
>
> Back/Fans [M8266]  Front of machine where keypad is.
>
>    [M8265]
>
>    [M9312] [M7859]
>
>    [M7762]
>
>    [OPEN]  [M7860]
>
>    [M7840]
>
>    Bus grant in third from front slot
>
>    [M9302] [M7856]
> The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running
> XP
>
> When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered
> off, then back on, and now it says '5'
>
> Any suggestions as to what to try first?  I may have the bus grant in
> backwards.  I have other boards I can try.
>
> Sincerely,
> John Welch
> :qw
>
>
>
>
>
> It is not completely clear (to me) how the modules are installed in the
>
> backplane. Standing in front of the 11/34 processor box (looking at the
>
> console), slot number 1 is at the right side. Each slot has 6 positions.
>
> Position A is at the rear side, followed by B thru F. Position F is
>
> thus at the front side.
>
> There is no confusion about the first 4 slots.
>
>
>
> Slot 1 and 2 hold the 11/34A processor boards, with M8266 in slot 1,
>
> and M8265 in slot 2.
>
> Slot 3, positions A and B has the M9312 bootstrap/terminator board,
>
> and slot3, positions C thru F has the M7859 KY11-LB programmer's console
>
> interface board.
>
> Slot 4 holds the RL11 interface. This module does "DMA", so the NPR
>
> jumper must be cut (open) on the backplane.
>
> Slot 5 has an SPC in positions C thru F. I had to look it up; it is the
>
> DR11-C.
>
>
>
> We are up to slot 6. Now things get "interesting" ... is that M7840 a 
typo?

>
> The field guide says that this is a KE11-B Extended Arithmetic Element.
>
> I do not know that board, is it "hex" or "quad"?
>
> Not sure that board belongs there ... and if it is quad, I assume it has
>
> to be in positions C thru F. I would suggest to pull this module, and
>
> check the NPR wire presence on the backplane. You need a G727A or G7273
>
> in this slot when the M7840 is removed.
>
>
>
> If you are not skipping slots (see below), we are now at slot 7. There
>
> is probably a G727A grant continuity card (aka "knockle buster") in
>
> position D. That would be OK, but if the NPR jumper is cut on the
>
> backplane, you would need a G7273 continuity and NPR card in positions
>
> C - D. It is easy to have the G727 put in wrong. The 4 copper "jumper"
>
> traces should be facing the next higher-numbered slot.
>
>
>
> Then you say that the next slot has the M9202 (in position A - B) and
>
> the M7856 (SLU and RTC) in positions C thru F.
> The M9202 connects two system units (backplanes). So, what is the next
>
> backplane?  Or do you have the M9202 in slot 8 and slot 9, positions
>
> A - B?  I have never seen that ...
>
>
>
> I am missing one slot. The 11/34 backplane has 9 slots.
>
>
>
> When you power up the system, the display should show 6 octal numbers.
>
> If only one digit shows a number (7 or 5 or whatever), there is an
>
> issue with the console itself, or the M7859. The 6 digits of the display
>
> are multiplexed. Maybe the connection cable between the console and the
>
> M7859 - damaged/knicked? It is worth checking out the simpler things 
first.

>
>
>
> Henk.

--
Sincerely,
John Welch
281-353-4706 Home
713-725-7017 Cell
:qw

Re: Re; Revive 11/34

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

> On Dec 9, 2017, at 8:23 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> From: Jerry Weiss
> 
> And the same for Jerry...
> 
>> It won't seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped
>> knuckles remember. 
> 
> Nope, they go in quite fine the wrong way around; I just checked.
> 
> Make sure they are in the right connector (D) and the right way around; I
> haven't checked to see if damage is likely to result on an error - does
> anyone know offhand?

Yup, they insert reversed.

I remember the limited keying resulted in a offset that you could sense if
you had any feeling left in those fingers.  If both edges aren’t flush
with the connector, its backwards.

RE: Revive 11/34

[Henk Gooijen via cctalk]

AFAICR (…), the M7859 is sort of a UNIBUS device. The (front panel) console 
only communicates with the M7859.

The  M7859 writes/read to/from memory using the UNIBUS. Have a look at the 
schematics of the console.

I cannot remember whether a demux for the displays is on the console PCB, or on 
the M7859.

I also have a few dead M7859’s too. Of one I know that one of the two 4-bit 
memory chips is faulty, the others

I never investigated.



If you get 00 on the dsipaly and when halted it shows 173066 I presume it 
is looping. You can use the

front panel to single step. If it loops, it will repeatedly read from a device 
address which is most likely the

CSR of the boot device. 173066 is an address of the boot PROMs on the M9312.

So, your 11/04 seems fine so far …


Van: cctalk <cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org> namens Noel Chiappa via cctalk 
<cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: Saturday, December 9, 2017 5:15:18 PM
Aan: cctalk@classiccmp.org
CC: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Onderwerp: Re: Revive 11/34

> From: John Welch

> Can you give me a refresher on how to tell which slots are cut? I
> remember having to turn the chassis over and looking for a particular
> wire

Yeah; you can use the G7273 as a 'crib', since it has the NPG jumper on it.
That jumper goes from CA1 to CB1: component side, third connector (counting
from the A connector), first and second pins (again counting from the A
connector end). A lot of the slots will still have their jumpers in, which
is how you can confirm you're looking at the right pins; look for slots
without them.


> I also have an 11/04 that I went and drug out.

Yeah, the M7263 is the KD11-D CPU, the M7847's are MS11-E's (one of them will
be useful as a first-stage debug for the 11/34, once you've verified, in the
-11/04, that they work - the M7891 MS11-L is rare and valuable, I'd rather not
use that until everything up to that point in the -11/34 is known working -
you could try pulling the two M7847's from the -11/04 and try plugging in the
M7891, to verify that it's sort of OK).

> I am thinking I could put a M9203/M7856 into slot 9, and find a M9312
> for slot 3 and maybe this would fire up. Any suggestions?

As always, first pull all the boards and check the power supply (if it's been
a long time since it was last powered on, re-form the electrolytics in the
power supply first, before powering it on), then put in the _minimal_ set of
boards and get those working.


> I added an M9302 in Slot9-AB and then moved the M7856 from the 11/34 to
> Slot9-CDEF of the 11/04. I put a random M9312 in Slot3-AB I turned on
> the 11/04.
> I have six '0' digits. I push ctrl+hlt and the display shows 173066.
> Looks like things are moving.

Yup, that's working. Now you have a working machine, you can board-swap in
from the -11/34 to check other boards out. Major, major help!!

The first thing I'd try would be the M7859, KY11-LB, from the -11/34 over
here. If it doesn't work in the -11/04 (with only that board changed), i)
you've isolated the problem, and ii) you can probably use the one from the
-11/04 to get the -11/34 working (unless there's something _else_ broken in
the -11/34 as well).

NOTE: Don't plug the good one from the -11/04 into the -11/34 - or do
anything else with the -11/34 - until you've checked the voltages in the
-11/34!!!

If the M7859, KY11-LB from the -11/34 _does_ work in the -11/04, time to keep
looking. The console itself is so dumb it's unlikely to be the problem, but
you never know; might we worth swapping. I'm having a hard time seeing what
problems in the /34 CPU, etc could cause the symptoms you're seeing - are
they still there with only the absolute minimal board set?

Noel

Re: Revive 11/34

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: John Welch 

> Can you give me a refresher on how to tell which slots are cut? I
> remember having to turn the chassis over and looking for a particular
> wire

Yeah; you can use the G7273 as a 'crib', since it has the NPG jumper on it.
That jumper goes from CA1 to CB1: component side, third connector (counting
from the A connector), first and second pins (again counting from the A
connector end). A lot of the slots will still have their jumpers in, which
is how you can confirm you're looking at the right pins; look for slots
without them.


> I also have an 11/04 that I went and drug out.

Yeah, the M7263 is the KD11-D CPU, the M7847's are MS11-E's (one of them will
be useful as a first-stage debug for the 11/34, once you've verified, in the
-11/04, that they work - the M7891 MS11-L is rare and valuable, I'd rather not
use that until everything up to that point in the -11/34 is known working -
you could try pulling the two M7847's from the -11/04 and try plugging in the
M7891, to verify that it's sort of OK).

> I am thinking I could put a M9203/M7856 into slot 9, and find a M9312
> for slot 3 and maybe this would fire up. Any suggestions?

As always, first pull all the boards and check the power supply (if it's been
a long time since it was last powered on, re-form the electrolytics in the
power supply first, before powering it on), then put in the _minimal_ set of
boards and get those working.


> I added an M9302 in Slot9-AB and then moved the M7856 from the 11/34 to
> Slot9-CDEF of the 11/04. I put a random M9312 in Slot3-AB I turned on
> the 11/04.
> I have six '0' digits. I push ctrl+hlt and the display shows 173066.
> Looks like things are moving.

Yup, that's working. Now you have a working machine, you can board-swap in
from the -11/34 to check other boards out. Major, major help!!

The first thing I'd try would be the M7859, KY11-LB, from the -11/34 over
here. If it doesn't work in the -11/04 (with only that board changed), i)
you've isolated the problem, and ii) you can probably use the one from the
-11/04 to get the -11/34 working (unless there's something _else_ broken in
the -11/34 as well).

NOTE: Don't plug the good one from the -11/04 into the -11/34 - or do
anything else with the -11/34 - until you've checked the voltages in the
-11/34!!!

If the M7859, KY11-LB from the -11/34 _does_ work in the -11/04, time to keep
looking. The console itself is so dumb it's unlikely to be the problem, but
you never know; might we worth swapping. I'm having a hard time seeing what
problems in the /34 CPU, etc could cause the symptoms you're seeing - are
they still there with only the absolute minimal board set?

Noel

Re; Revive 11/34

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Henk Gooijen

A few comments to you about Henk's points:

> Standing in front of the 11/34 processor box (looking at the console),
> slot number 1 is at the right side.

That's for the 10-1/2" box; the 5-1/4" is different. Which is this?

> Each slot has 6 positions. Position A is at the rear side, followed by
> B thru F. Position F is thus at the front side.

I prefer to say that connector A is at the right, when facing the component
side of a hex-wide card which has the handles at the top, and the contact
fingers at the bottom.

(Make doubly sure you never plug a card in backwards! It will almost
certainly kill the card. In theory they are keyed so you can't, but idiots
like me have been known to do it! :-)

> The 4 copper "jumper" traces should be facing the next higher-numbered
> slot.

I.e. on the so-called 'solder' side of the card, not the 'component' side.
(All the cards face the same way.)

> When you power up the system, the display should show 6 octal numbers.
> If only one digit shows a number (7 or 5 or whatever), there is an
> issue with the console itself, or the M7859.

The M7859's are, for some reason, particularly prone to failures. About half
the ones I've seen weren't working at first. There's no one chip that seems
to be the usual suspect, I've seen several different failure modes.


> From: Jerry Weiss

And the same for Jerry...

> It won't seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped
> knuckles remember. 

Nope, they go in quite fine the wrong way around; I just checked.

Make sure they are in the right connector (D) and the right way around; I
haven't checked to see if damage is likely to result on an error - does
anyone know offhand?

> Check the cable orientation. 

Note that one DEC manual (the KY11-LB Maintenance Manual) shows the wrong
orientation! See here:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/KY11-LB_Programmer%27s_Console

at "Cable Connection and Documentation Error" for more.

> I believe the cabling for the M7859 is a little different between the two

The /34 has two narrow 'maintainence' cables, the /04 only one. But you can
ignore these if you're not using the maintenance mode on the front console,
and only plug in the wide cable.

Noel

Re: Revive 11/34

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

> On 12/8/2017 3:50 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:
>> On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:25 PM, John Welch via cctech 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are:
>>> 
>>> Back/Fans [M8266]  Front of machine where keypad is.
>>>   [M8265]
>>>   [M9312] [M7859]
>>>   [M7762]
>>>   [OPEN]  [M7860]
>>>   [M7840]
>>>   Bus grant in third from front slot
>>>   [M9302] [M7856]
>>> The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running 
>>> XP
>>> 
>>> When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered off, 
>>> then back on, and now it says '5'
>>> 
>>> Any suggestions as to what to try first?  I may have the bus grant in 
>>> backwards.  I have other boards I can try.
>>> 
>>> Sincerely,
>>> John Welch
>>> :qw
>>> 
>> 
>> 1) The G727A bus grant card is keyed (somewhat). It should be in Row D 
>> (fourth from the back)
>>  It won’t seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped 
>> knuckles remember. 
>> 
>>  You can temporarily pull it out to finish the check out.  There’s 
>> nothing past the 
>>   M7840 that requires DMA.

Ignore this last suggestion (see below).

>> 
>> 2) Check the baud rate, stop bits and parity settings on both the 
>> Hyperterminal and the M785 to make sure they match. 
>>  
>> 3)  Are you seeing a single 7 or 5 on  KY11-LB Programmer Console or on the 
>> Hyperterminal?
>>  
>>  An other status led’s lit on the KY11-LB?
>> 
>> 4) I don’t see any memory listed…  Do you have any M7847’s?  
>> 
>> 5) Grab a copy of EK-11034-UG-001 PDP-11-34 System User’s Manual for more 
>> info.
>> 
>> 
>> Jerry
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> On Dec 8, 2017, at 5:26 PM, John Welch via cctech  
> wrote:
> 
> Update:
> This is the map of the machine:
> 
>    AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF 
> (Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M8266] (Front/Keypad/DC ON)
>  2 [M8265] 
>  3 [M9312] [M7859] 
>  4 [M7891] 
>  5 [M7762] 
>  6 [M7860] 
>  7 [M7840] 
>  8 GNT 
>  9 [M9302] [M7856] 
>    AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF 
> Reseating the ribbon cable on the M7859 changed the display.  I have replaced 
> the M7840 with a G7273.
> Now when I power on it says (dim)0, (bright)0, blank, (dim)0, blank, blank.
> I have reseated the M7859, I don't think I have another one.
> Maybe I should hit it with a vacuum.
> I had forgotten about needing to cut a wire for DMA.  Can you give me a 
> refresher on how to tell which slots are cut?  I remember having to turn the 
> chassis over and looking for a particular wire but that was >15 years ago.

Your update has a M7891 (MS11) which addresses the memory questions.

The Programmers Console display is not correct.  It should be 7 digits, either 
000 when running or some other data or address value.
Check the cable orientation.  see 
http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/KY11-LB_MaintMan.pdf
 

 chapter 9.

A light cleaning and reseating all the boards is an easy place to start.

For NPG changes see 
http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/1134_UsersManual.pdf
 

 section 4.2.2.2

Ignore my earlier comment about leaving out the G727a.  I had slipped into QBUS 
thinking mode in error.



> On Dec 8, 2017, at 5:49 PM, John Welch  wrote:
> 
> I also have an 11/04 that I went and drug out.  It is configured like this:
> 
> 11/04:
>    AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF  
> (Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M7263]  (Front/Keypad/DC ON)
>  2 [M7847]  
>  3 [M7859]  
>  4 [M7847]  
>  5 GNT  
>  6 [M7762]  
>  7 [M7840]  
>  8 [DILOG]  
>  9   {nothing}  
>    AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF  
> I am 

Re: Revive 11/34

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:25 PM, John Welch via cctech  wrote:
> 
> I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are:
> 
> Back/Fans [M8266]  Front of machine where keypad is.
> 
>   [M8265]
> 
>   [M9312] [M7859]
> 
>   [M7762]
> 
>   [OPEN]  [M7860]
> 
>   [M7840]
> 
>   Bus grant in third from front slot
> 
>   [M9302] [M7856]
> The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running XP
> 
> When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered off, 
> then back on, and now it says '5'
> 
> Any suggestions as to what to try first?  I may have the bus grant in 
> backwards.  I have other boards I can try.
> 
> Sincerely,
> John Welch
> :qw


1) The G727A bus grant card is keyed (somewhat). It should be in Row D 
(fourth from the back)
 It won’t seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped 
knuckles remember. 

 You can temporarily pull it out to finish the check out.  There’s nothing 
past the 
  M7840 that requires DMA.

2) Check the baud rate, stop bits and parity settings on both the Hyperterminal 
and the M785 to make sure they match. 
 
3)  Are you seeing a single 7 or 5 on  KY11-LB Programmer Console or on the 
Hyperterminal?
 
 An other status led’s lit on the KY11-LB?

4) I don’t see any memory listed…  Do you have any M7847’s?  

5) Grab a copy of EK-11034-UG-001 PDP-11-34 System User’s Manual for more info.


Jerry

RE: Revive 11/34

[Henk Gooijen via cctalk]

Van: John Welch via cctech
Verzonden: vrijdag 8 december 2017 21:25
Aan: cct...@classiccmp.org
Onderwerp: Revive 11/34

I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are:

Back/Fans [M8266]  Front of machine where keypad is.

   [M8265]

   [M9312] [M7859]

   [M7762]

   [OPEN]  [M7860]

   [M7840]

   Bus grant in third from front slot

   [M9302] [M7856]
The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running
XP

When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered
off, then back on, and now it says '5'

Any suggestions as to what to try first?  I may have the bus grant in
backwards.  I have other boards I can try.

Sincerely,
John Welch
:qw


It is not completely clear (to me) how the modules are installed in the
backplane. Standing in front of the 11/34 processor box (looking at the
console), slot number 1 is at the right side. Each slot has 6 positions.
Position A is at the rear side, followed by B thru F. Position F is
thus at the front side.
There is no confusion about the first 4 slots.

Slot 1 and 2 hold the 11/34A processor boards, with M8266 in slot 1,
and M8265 in slot 2.
Slot 3, positions A and B has the M9312 bootstrap/terminator board,
and slot3, positions C thru F has the M7859 KY11-LB programmer's console
interface board.
Slot 4 holds the RL11 interface. This module does "DMA", so the NPR
jumper must be cut (open) on the backplane.
Slot 5 has an SPC in positions C thru F. I had to look it up; it is the
DR11-C.

We are up to slot 6. Now things get "interesting" ... is that M7840 a typo?
The field guide says that this is a KE11-B Extended Arithmetic Element.
I do not know that board, is it "hex" or "quad"?
Not sure that board belongs there ... and if it is quad, I assume it has
to be in positions C thru F. I would suggest to pull this module, and
check the NPR wire presence on the backplane. You need a G727A or G7273
in this slot when the M7840 is removed.

If you are not skipping slots (see below), we are now at slot 7. There
is probably a G727A grant continuity card (aka "knockle buster") in
position D. That would be OK, but if the NPR jumper is cut on the
backplane, you would need a G7273 continuity and NPR card in positions
C - D. It is easy to have the G727 put in wrong. The 4 copper "jumper"
traces should be facing the next higher-numbered slot.

Then you say that the next slot has the M9202 (in position A - B) and
the M7856 (SLU and RTC) in positions C thru F.
The M9202 connects two system units (backplanes). So, what is the next
backplane?  Or do you have the M9202 in slot 8 and slot 9, positions
A - B?  I have never seen that ...

I am missing one slot. The 11/34 backplane has 9 slots.

When you power up the system, the display should show 6 octal numbers.
If only one digit shows a number (7 or 5 or whatever), there is an
issue with the console itself, or the M7859. The 6 digits of the display
are multiplexed. Maybe the connection cable between the console and the
M7859 - damaged/knicked? It is worth checking out the simpler things first.

Henk.