subject:"Re\: IBM 7074 and then some\: \"Systems we love\" conference"

On 01/25/2017 05:47 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> Based on the bios of the authors, I'm actually more inclined to
> believe the book than annotation of a photo on the IBM web site.

Computerhistory.org mentions that the 1959 date was part of other
information written on the back of the photo.  Nevertheless...

Okay, how about this?

https://www.soa.org/Library/Research/Transactions-Of-Society-Of-Actuaries/1959/January/tsa59v11n3182.aspx

"Transactions of Society of Actuaries"
1959, Volume 11, Number 31

"MR. LLOYD G. ROLLERSON stated for the past 7 years the Crown Life has
been using a seriatim validation method.  They are now  in the process
of installing an IBM,  7070 system, but will retain the seriatim system."

So, how could IBM be installing a 7070 at a life insurance company in
1959 if the machine hadn't been released?

I can dig up more references, if your confidence in the authors of the
1986 book is still unshaken.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

2017-01-25 Thread Eric Smith

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

> So who you gonna believe--a photo taken in 1959 or some guy writing 27
> years later saying it didn't exist?

Based on the bios of the authors, I'm actually more inclined to believe the
book than annotation of a photo on the IBM web site.

>
>   Perhaps they've got the 7070
> confused with the 7074.
>

Doubtful. They do mention the 7074 but don't give much detail.

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

2017-01-25 Thread jim stephens




On 1/25/2017 9:54 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote:

On 01/23/2017 02:00 PM, Steven Maresca wrote:

Just wanted to share an excerpted story just sent to me by a colleague,
regarding an IBM 7074 supplying data to Java middleware, ultimately feeding
a modern webapp stack:
http://thenewstack.io/happens-use-java-1960-ibm-mainframe/

This comes from a conference which occurred last month titled "Systems we
love" :
http://thenewstack.io/systems-we-love/
http://systemswe.love/

Cheers,
Steve


Someone at work recently shared this: http://youtu.be/TPe6UXMDMGM - it's
almost the whole thing ~ 8h long.  You'll have to skip around the breaks.


There is a blog which exposes the video publicly, but the video itself 
is marked to do limited sharing.  I think it is perfect for here, but 
maybe share the referenced blog pages, which has an expanded index in 
case they want to take it down or change it.


Looks like it was an interesting meeting.
thanks
jim

RE: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

2017-01-25 Thread oharamj

I dunno – there’s something about the sheep welcoming the 7070 that struck me 
funny.  

Sent from my Windows 10 phone

From: Chuck Guzis
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 4:01 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

On 01/25/2017 02:07 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> The 7070 was announced in Sept. 1958, but did not ship until April
> 1960.

According to IBM's DPD Chronology  for 1959:

"On August 3, DPD introduces the IBM Datacenter -- facilities in which
customers rent the use of IBM 7070 systems by the hour and supply their
own programmers and operators. DPD foresees a nationwide network of 25
to 30 Datacenters in major cities, with the first three located in New
York City, Chicago and Los Angeles. "

> The first IBM computing device to use transistors and no vacuum tubes
> was the 608 calculator, shipped in December 1957.  IBM's first
> transistorized computers were the 7090 (36-bit scientific,
> transistorized version of 709) shipped in November 1959, and the
> 1401, shipped in early 1960, before the 7070.

As a matter of fact, here's a 7070 on its way to an installation in
Naples in 1959:

https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV2070.html

And I *did* specify computer, not calculator with regard to transistors.

So who you gonna believe--a photo taken in 1959 or some guy writing 27
years later saying it didn't exist?  Perhaps they've got the 7070
confused with the 7074.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

On 01/25/2017 01:37 PM, ben wrote:

> What ever happened to computrons?

Were computrons ever deployed in a real product?  I was under the
impression that they were stillborn.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

On 01/25/2017 02:07 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> The 7070 was announced in Sept. 1958, but did not ship until April
> 1960.

According to IBM's DPD Chronology  for 1959:

"On August 3, DPD introduces the IBM Datacenter -- facilities in which
customers rent the use of IBM 7070 systems by the hour and supply their
own programmers and operators. DPD foresees a nationwide network of 25
to 30 Datacenters in major cities, with the first three located in New
York City, Chicago and Los Angeles. "

> The first IBM computing device to use transistors and no vacuum tubes
> was the 608 calculator, shipped in December 1957.  IBM's first
> transistorized computers were the 7090 (36-bit scientific,
> transistorized version of 709) shipped in November 1959, and the
> 1401, shipped in early 1960, before the 7070.

As a matter of fact, here's a 7070 on its way to an installation in
Naples in 1959:

https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV2070.html

And I *did* specify computer, not calculator with regard to transistors.

So who you gonna believe--a photo taken in 1959 or some guy writing 27
years later saying it didn't exist?  Perhaps they've got the 7070
confused with the 7074.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

2017-01-25 Thread Eric Smith

On Jan 24, 2017 7:57 PM, "Chuck Guzis"  wrote:
> The 7070 was very early (1958) and is probably the first (or close to
> the first) IBM transistorized computer.

The 7070 was announced in Sept. 1958, but did not ship until April 1960.

The first IBM computing device to use transistors and no vacuum tubes was
the 608 calculator, shipped in December 1957.  IBM's first transistorized
computers were the 7090 (36-bit scientific, transistorized version of 709)
shipped in November 1959, and the 1401, shipped in early 1960, before the
7070.

Source: _IBM's Early Computers_, Bashe, Johnson, Palmer, and Pugh, 1986,
MIT Press

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

2017-01-25 Thread ben


On 1/25/2017 11:55 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 01/25/2017 09:39 AM, Jon Elson wrote:


Well, of course.  If you look at the design of some of the last gasps
of the tube generation like the Bendix G15, you will see what
incredible hoops they had to jump through to make a viable product.
Or, look at SAGE, which filled an enormous building with walls of
tube-encrusted cabinets.  Transistors and core memory really changed
the landscape completely.  On the other hand, computers like the LINC
were quite useful with a really modest number of transistors,
certainly no more than 1000 or so, while the 7070 used 30,000!


Try, say, the PB-250, with 400 transistors; a 22 bit machine.  There was
a healthy mistrust of early transistors.  Witness the one-transistor
DTMF encoder used on early Touch-Tone phones or the very low transistor
count in the early Dataphones.

Nowadays, of course, we think of a million transistors as being modest.


What ever happened to computrons?


--Chuck


Ben.

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

On 01/25/2017 09:39 AM, Jon Elson wrote:

> Well, of course.  If you look at the design of some of the last gasps
> of the tube generation like the Bendix G15, you will see what
> incredible hoops they had to jump through to make a viable product.
> Or, look at SAGE, which filled an enormous building with walls of
> tube-encrusted cabinets.  Transistors and core memory really changed
> the landscape completely.  On the other hand, computers like the LINC
> were quite useful with a really modest number of transistors,
> certainly no more than 1000 or so, while the 7070 used 30,000!

Try, say, the PB-250, with 400 transistors; a 22 bit machine.  There was
a healthy mistrust of early transistors.  Witness the one-transistor
DTMF encoder used on early Touch-Tone phones or the very low transistor
count in the early Dataphones.

Nowadays, of course, we think of a million transistors as being modest.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

2017-01-25 Thread Ray Arachelian

On 01/23/2017 02:00 PM, Steven Maresca wrote:
> Just wanted to share an excerpted story just sent to me by a colleague,
> regarding an IBM 7074 supplying data to Java middleware, ultimately feeding
> a modern webapp stack:
> http://thenewstack.io/happens-use-java-1960-ibm-mainframe/
>
> This comes from a conference which occurred last month titled "Systems we
> love" :
> http://thenewstack.io/systems-we-love/
> http://systemswe.love/
>
> Cheers,
> Steve
>
Someone at work recently shared this: http://youtu.be/TPe6UXMDMGM - it's
almost the whole thing ~ 8h long.  You'll have to skip around the breaks.

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

2017-01-25 Thread Jon Elson


On 01/25/2017 12:19 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 01/24/2017 10:01 PM, Jon Elson wrote:


And, the 7074 was a serious computer, given the vintage.  Either 4 or
6 us core cycle time was QUITE good in 1961 or so.  10 us
instruction execution time was pretty decent.

I find the whole period amazing.   Consider that the 709 was introduced
in mid 1958.  It's only 6 years to the S/360.  It seems that when
transistor manufacture matured enough, the floodgates really opened.
After 1958, nobody but developing or Warsaw pact countries even
considered vacuum tube computing.

Well, of course.  If you look at the design of some of the 
last gasps of the tube generation like the Bendix G15, you 
will see what incredible hoops they had to jump through to 
make a viable product. Or, look at SAGE, which filled an 
enormous building with walls of tube-encrusted cabinets.  
Transistors and core memory really changed the landscape 
completely.  On the other hand, computers like the LINC were 
quite useful with a really modest number of transistors, 
certainly no more than 1000 or so, while the 7070 used 30,000!


Jon

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

On 01/24/2017 10:01 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

> And, the 7074 was a serious computer, given the vintage.  Either 4 or
> 6 us core cycle time was QUITE good in 1961 or so.  10 us
> instruction execution time was pretty decent.

I find the whole period amazing.   Consider that the 709 was introduced
in mid 1958.  It's only 6 years to the S/360.  It seems that when
transistor manufacture matured enough, the floodgates really opened.
After 1958, nobody but developing or Warsaw pact countries even
considered vacuum tube computing.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference


On 01/24/2017 11:14 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Given that the whole SMS thing was the common denominator 
among the 7000 and 1400 and 1620 lines, it's hard to say 
who was first. But the 7070 was first delivered. --Chuck 
Which is damned amazing, as the 7070 was a VERY ambitious 
machine. 30,000 transistors, 22,000 diodes on 14,000 circuit 
cards.  TOTALLY mind boggling.


And, the 7074 was a serious computer, given the vintage.  
Either 4 or 6 us core cycle time was QUITE good in 1961 or 
so.  10 us instruction execution time was pretty decent.


Jon

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

On 01/24/2017 07:55 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

> Well, they were all built using SMS card technology, and a few
> pictures seem to show very similar backplane setup. I didn't know the
> 7070 was the first of that generation.  While the first 7030 was
> delivered after the 7070, development of the Stretch probably started
> first.

Yup, I was going by delivery dates.  "If you can't deliver it, it
doesn't exist".  IIRC, Gene Amdahl and friends originally proposed a
design using point-contact transistors (trying to get a uniform batch of
those was "interesting").  The proposal died a couple of times, until
IBM pitched what was then vaporware to LANL (then LASL).  Development
was started in 1956, according to WikiP.

Given that the whole SMS thing was the common denominator among the 7000
and 1400 and 1620 lines, it's hard to say who was first.  But the 7070
was first delivered.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference


On 01/24/2017 08:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 01/24/2017 06:37 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

On 01/24/2017 12:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

Was the 7070 IBM's first machine with a wire-wrapped backplane?
--Chuck

No, all SMS machines used similar wire wrapping.  So, I think that
goes back to the 7030 (Stretch) and probably 1620, 1401 and others of
that time.  I'm pretty sure those preceded the 70xx series.

The 7070 was very early (1958) and is probably the first (or close to
the first) IBM transistorized computer.  The 1620 and 1401 were both
1959 introductions.  First delivery of STRETCH to LANL was 1961.


Well, they were all built using SMS card technology, and a 
few pictures seem to show very similar backplane setup.
I didn't know the 7070 was the first of that generation.  
While the first 7030 was delivered after the 7070, 
development of the Stretch probably started first.


Jon

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

On 01/24/2017 06:37 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 01/24/2017 12:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> Was the 7070 IBM's first machine with a wire-wrapped backplane?
>> --Chuck
> No, all SMS machines used similar wire wrapping.  So, I think that
> goes back to the 7030 (Stretch) and probably 1620, 1401 and others of
> that time.  I'm pretty sure those preceded the 70xx series.

The 7070 was very early (1958) and is probably the first (or close to
the first) IBM transistorized computer.  The 1620 and 1401 were both
1959 introductions.  First delivery of STRETCH to LANL was 1961.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference


On 01/24/2017 12:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Was the 7070 IBM's first machine with a wire-wrapped 
backplane? --Chuck 
No, all SMS machines used similar wire wrapping.  So, I 
think that goes back to the 7030 (Stretch)
and probably 1620, 1401 and others of that time.  I'm pretty 
sure those preceded the 70xx series.


Jon

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

On 01/24/2017 09:25 AM, Jon Elson wrote:

> I wonder how late IBM still supported the 7074 microcode emulation?
> And, of course, anybody could write a software-level emulation for
> the 7074, in IBM or other hardware.  One reason maybe to not run simh
> on a PC is if the data comes in on old mag tapes (gasp, maybe even
> 556 BPI NRZI half-inch tapes)?

That would seem to me to be an insane decision also.  How many 2400' 556
 bpi 7-track tapes can you fit on a 1TB PC drive?  Why fool with
maintaining a bank of drives in that light?

The biquinary coding used on the 7070 different from that of the 650.  A
two-out of 5 bit scheme was used (01236, with 0 being represented as
12).   IIRC, the 650 used 7 bits.  A word was 10 digits plus sign; a
reference to 55 bit length is made, which would seem to devote a whole
digit to the sign--it's not clear why this was done, as the sign appears
to have only 2 values.

https://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/afips/1959/5054/00/50540222.pdf

Has a good detailed run-down.  There are some interesting details; for
example, although it employed a digit-sequential ALU, circuitry
apparently did leading nonsignificant zero detection, so that only the
number of significant digits was operated upon.

Another interesting aspect was the scatter/gather tape I/O facility.
One normally thinks of this as a feature on later gear; to see it in
1959 is a bit surprising.  Also interesting is hardware prioritizing of
I/O operations.

Was the 7070 IBM's first machine with a wire-wrapped backplane?

--Chuck

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference


On 01/24/2017 12:00 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 01/23/2017 09:42 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

On 01/23/2017 07:45 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

This blog seems to indicate that there is NO 7074, but an emulator
running on 370 hardware.

http://nikhilism.com/post/2016/systems-we-love/

This makes a lot more sense, some of these microcode emulations were
still available of fairly late machines.  Also, it probably would not
be real hard to write a decent emulator for the 7074 and run it on
modern hardware.  Once you are using emulation, why not keep the host
hardware current?

Too bad the excerpts from the original talk are totally scrambled.

It wouldn't surprise me if the IBM S/370 isn't being emulated as well.
It wouldn't be the first time for "nested" emulation.

Is there a "recursive" emulator setup wherein one machine emulates
another one...where the final emulation is for the original hardware?


I have no idea, although VM/370 systems tended to have a LOT 
of instances of OS'es and virtual machines running.


I wonder how late IBM still supported the 7074 microcode 
emulation? And, of course, anybody could write a 
software-level emulation for the 7074, in IBM or other 
hardware.  One reason maybe to not run simh on a PC is if 
the data comes in on old mag tapes (gasp, maybe even 556 BPI 
NRZI half-inch tapes)?


Jon

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference


On 01/23/2017 11:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

Bob Bener has written a short squib about how the 7070 came into being:

http://www.bobbemer.com/BIRTH.HTM

Funny, in a tragic way.


WOW!  But, at the end, he says the 707x is a 6-bit machine.  
It seems, in fact, that the 707x was a WORD machine, not a 
character machine.  There is a fair amount of info on it 
that seems to confirm this.  Also, the stated speeds seem to 
be invariant for short vs. long (10-digit) operations, 
pretty much proving it was a word machine.


Jon

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

On 01/23/2017 09:42 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 01/23/2017 07:45 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> 
> This blog seems to indicate that there is NO 7074, but an emulator 
> running on 370 hardware.
>> http://nikhilism.com/post/2016/systems-we-love/
> 
> This makes a lot more sense, some of these microcode emulations were 
> still available of fairly late machines.  Also, it probably would not
> be real hard to write a decent emulator for the 7074 and run it on
> modern hardware.  Once you are using emulation, why not keep the host
> hardware current?
> 
> Too bad the excerpts from the original talk are totally scrambled.

It wouldn't surprise me if the IBM S/370 isn't being emulated as well.
It wouldn't be the first time for "nested" emulation.

Is there a "recursive" emulator setup wherein one machine emulates
another one...where the final emulation is for the original hardware?

--Chuck

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

Bob Bener has written a short squib about how the 7070 came into being:

http://www.bobbemer.com/BIRTH.HTM

Funny, in a tragic way.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

2017-01-23 Thread Jon Elson


On 01/23/2017 07:45 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

This blog seems to indicate that there is NO 7074, but an 
emulator running on 370 hardware.

http://nikhilism.com/post/2016/systems-we-love/


This makes a lot more sense, some of these microcode 
emulations were still available of fairly late machines.  
Also, it probably would not be real hard to write a decent 
emulator for the 7074 and run it on modern hardware.  Once 
you are using emulation, why not keep the host hardware current?


Too bad the excerpts from the original talk are totally 
scrambled.


Jon

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

On 01/23/2017 09:21 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

> Oh, and the picture in the article is CLEARLY a posed IBM sales
> brochure photo, and not from the recent operation at the unnamed
> government agency.

The photo's from Wikipedia, and is a photo of the system at the
Deutsches Museum in Munich, which is a place in which to spend several
days wandering about.  It's a marvelous collection of everything:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140820132312-15475825-ibm-vintage-machinery-in-munich-deutsches-museum

--Chuck

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

2017-01-23 Thread Jon Elson


On 01/23/2017 09:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 01/23/2017 05:45 PM, Jon Elson wrote:


WOW  That is QUITE amazing!  And, I can't possibly imagine why
anyone in their right mind would do this! Seems an emulator on a PC
would be faster, and way more reliable, not to mention taking up MUCH
less space, power and cooling.  How reliable can a 60 year old
machine possibly be? Where do you get parts?  There have to be a
whole lot of special parts that are deteriorating, like the plastic
parts on the console.  Even the PC boards (IBM SMS cards) are pretty
fragile, easily damaged during rework, and some of them dissipate a
lot of power, causing slow thermal degradation.

Are we SURE this isn't a preview of the April 1st edition?

I wondered about this too.  Even the USAF eventually replaced the 7080s
with S/370 running emulation.  Keeping a 7074 running (if my memories of
keeping a 7094 going are accureate) would be quite some task.


Yes!  There's all sorts of little things that would drive 
you nuts. Things like cooling fans, power supply capacitors, 
cable routing hardware (clamps, ties, etc.)  that they no 
longer make.  it would be a constant job of finding suitable 
replacements for unavailable parts.  The 7000 series had 
"pages" that made up a "book" with tons of old wiring that 
flexed every time you opened up the pages to access the 
circuit cards.  I just CAN'T believe somebody is actually 
keeping such a machine in daily service.  (On the other 
hand, CHM does have a working 1401, that also requires 
folding out racks of boards to access the cards, flexing 
similar cables.)


Wikipedia says the 7070 had 14,000 SMS circuit cards, with 
30,000 transistors and 22,000 diodes.  Having worked on some 
much more recent gear with Germanium transistors, I saw 
about 10% of them were bad.  I didn't run that gear long 
once I fixed it, I sold it on eBay before any more went 
out.  But, I can't imagine that a machine with that many 
components could keep running awfully long between failures.


As for the 1-6 ms response time, that is totally bogus.  The 
article is complete gibberish, talking about a vast library 
of mag tape and ms response time in the same sentence.  
Maybe the 7074 prepares data weekly for some other (newer) 
system that is actually connected online.  And, of course, 
to connect anything to the 7074, you'd have to build custom 
hardware.  RS-232 had not even been invented when the 
7000-series came out.  They did have a 1414 unit that 
apparently was some kind of comm adapter, but I'll bet it 
took milliseconds to send one character.


Oh, and the picture in the article is CLEARLY a posed IBM 
sales brochure photo, and not from the recent operation at 
the unnamed government agency.


Jon

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

On 01/23/2017 05:45 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

> WOW  That is QUITE amazing!  And, I can't possibly imagine why 
> anyone in their right mind would do this! Seems an emulator on a PC
> would be faster, and way more reliable, not to mention taking up MUCH
> less space, power and cooling.  How reliable can a 60 year old
> machine possibly be? Where do you get parts?  There have to be a
> whole lot of special parts that are deteriorating, like the plastic
> parts on the console.  Even the PC boards (IBM SMS cards) are pretty
> fragile, easily damaged during rework, and some of them dissipate a
> lot of power, causing slow thermal degradation.
> 
> Are we SURE this isn't a preview of the April 1st edition?

I wondered about this too.  Even the USAF eventually replaced the 7080s
with S/370 running emulation.  Keeping a 7074 running (if my memories of
keeping a 7094 going are accureate) would be quite some task.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

2017-01-23 Thread Jon Elson


On 01/23/2017 01:00 PM, Steven Maresca wrote:

Just wanted to share an excerpted story just sent to me by a colleague,
regarding an IBM 7074 supplying data to Java middleware, ultimately feeding
a modern webapp stack:
http://thenewstack.io/happens-use-java-1960-ibm-mainframe/

This comes from a conference which occurred last month titled "Systems we
love" :
http://thenewstack.io/systems-we-love/
http://systemswe.love/

Cheers,
Steve

WOW  That is QUITE amazing!  And, I can't possibly 
imagine why anyone in their right mind would do this!
Seems an emulator on a PC would be faster, and way more 
reliable, not to mention taking up MUCH less space,
power and cooling.  How reliable can a 60 year old machine 
possibly be?  Where do you get parts?  There have to be a 
whole lot of special parts that are deteriorating, like the 
plastic parts on the console.  Even the PC boards (IBM SMS 
cards) are pretty fragile, easily damaged during rework, and 
some of them dissipate a lot of power, causing slow thermal 
degradation.


Are we SURE this isn't a preview of the April 1st edition?

Jon

David Gelernter - was Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

2017-01-23 Thread Toby Thain

On 2017-01-23 6:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 01/23/2017 12:25 PM, Paul Koning wrote:

On Jan 23, 2017, at 2:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 01/23/2017 11:00 AM, Steven Maresca wrote:

Just wanted to share an excerpted story just sent to me by a
colleague, regarding an IBM 7074 supplying data to Java
middleware, ultimately feeding a modern webapp stack:
http://thenewstack.io/happens-use-java-1960-ibm-mainframe/

The 7074 was referred to as a "supercomputer". Can any decimal
machine really bear that title?

I suppose it could. ...

The 7070/74 was just a member of the 7000 line. The 7030 STRETCH and
even the 7090/94 were both binary and far faster.

It's just that I bridle a bit when hearing the young 'uns refer to any
physically large machine as a "supercomputer".

It's the same feeling that I get when I see press releases today that
relate that David Gelernter single-handedly developed the parallel
computation. He's not old enough; at 61, he was still in high school
during the ILLIAC IV era.

Gelernter's profile may have been boosted by a Scientific American
special issue on Advanced Computing (1987). It featured his experimental
Linda system. It's certainly I first heard of him -- I think it was this
article:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/programming-for-advanced-computing/

And stuff like this wouldn't have hurt either (found just now while
googling the above citation):

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/19/business/david-gelernter-s-romance-with-linda.html?pagewanted=all

And, well... in more recent news...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2017/01/18/david-gelernter-fiercely-anti-intellectual-computer-scientist-is-being-eyed-for-trumps-science-adviser/

--Toby

Now, get off of my lawn!

--Chuck

RE: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

2017-01-23 Thread oharamj

Oh, no.  Of course not.  Perish the thought.

Sent from my Windows 10 phone

From: Toby Thain
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2017 12:45 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

On 2017-01-23 5:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 01/23/2017 11:00 AM, Steven Maresca wrote:
>> Just wanted to share an excerpted story just sent to me by a
>> colleague, regarding an IBM 7074 supplying data to Java middleware,
>> ultimately feeding a modern webapp stack:
>> http://thenewstack.io/happens-use-java-1960-ibm-mainframe/
>
> The 7074 was referred to as a "supercomputer".  Can any decimal machine
> really bear that title?
>
> The USAF used 7080s well into the 1980s--another decimal system.  One of
> the the reasons for doing so was a system implemented in 7080 COBOL with
> miles and miles of undocumented Autocoder patches.No one person had
> a full grasp of the resulting system and its nuances.

Thank God this could not happen today!
--T

>
> --Chuck
>
>

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

2017-01-23 Thread Charles Anthony

On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Mouse  wrote:

> >> The 7074 was referred to as a "supercomputer".  Can any decimal
> >> machine really bear that title?
> > I suppose it could.  I would apply the term to a computer that's the
> fastest$
>
> Consider Babbage's Analytical Engine.  It was decimal and it was, not
> so much by intrinsic merit as by lack of competition, the fastest
> machine of its day.
>
> Admittedly, it ended up being little but vapourware until modern times.
> But applying "supercomputer" to vapourware machines is a longstanding
> tradition (though perhaps not one dating back quite to Babbage's day).
>
>
"The Holy Roman Empire, which was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire"

-- Charles

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

2017-01-23 Thread Mouse

>> The 7074 was referred to as a "supercomputer".  Can any decimal
>> machine really bear that title?
> I suppose it could.  I would apply the term to a computer that's the fastest$

Consider Babbage's Analytical Engine.  It was decimal and it was, not
so much by intrinsic merit as by lack of competition, the fastest
machine of its day.

Admittedly, it ended up being little but vapourware until modern times.
But applying "supercomputer" to vapourware machines is a longstanding
tradition (though perhaps not one dating back quite to Babbage's day).

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
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Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

2017-01-23 Thread Paul Koning

> On Jan 23, 2017, at 2:16 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
> On 01/23/2017 11:00 AM, Steven Maresca wrote:
>> Just wanted to share an excerpted story just sent to me by a
>> colleague, regarding an IBM 7074 supplying data to Java middleware,
>> ultimately feeding a modern webapp stack: 
>> http://thenewstack.io/happens-use-java-1960-ibm-mainframe/
> 
> The 7074 was referred to as a "supercomputer".  Can any decimal machine
> really bear that title?

I suppose it could.  I would apply the term to a computer that's the fastest 
out there by a fair margin, and uses innovative or distinctive bits of 
architecture to make it so.  A CDC 6600 clearly qualifies on that basis, as do 
the Cray 1 and the ILLIAC IV.  I've heard the IBM Stretch mentioned as well, I 
don't know it enough to comment.  It seems hard to imagine that a decimal 
machine could overcome the inherent disadvantages of being decimal so 
successfully that it can reach supercomputer status, but in theory I suppose it 
might be possible.

paul

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference

2017-01-23 Thread Toby Thain


On 2017-01-23 5:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 01/23/2017 11:00 AM, Steven Maresca wrote:

Just wanted to share an excerpted story just sent to me by a
colleague, regarding an IBM 7074 supplying data to Java middleware,
ultimately feeding a modern webapp stack:
http://thenewstack.io/happens-use-java-1960-ibm-mainframe/


The 7074 was referred to as a "supercomputer".  Can any decimal machine
really bear that title?

The USAF used 7080s well into the 1980s--another decimal system.  One of
the the reasons for doing so was a system implemented in 7080 COBOL with
miles and miles of undocumented Autocoder patches.No one person had
a full grasp of the resulting system and its nuances.


Thank God this could not happen today!
--T



--Chuck

Re: IBM 7074 and then some: "Systems we love" conference