Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Jerome H. Fine]

>Paul Koning wrote:


On Apr 24, 2016, at 8:54 PM, Jerome H. Fine  wrote:


   


Kyle Owen wrote:
 


On a related note, a former DEC field engineer gave me this key (and
keychain). He thought it was a PDP-8 key at first, but it's not the
standard XX2247. It says KBM1100...any ideas what this might go to?

http://imgur.com/a/4v8Hq


I have followed this thread, but have not been interested enough
to keep any of the old posts.
...
The above post suggests that XX2247 was used for the PDP-8.
If so, was any specific key used for the PDP-11?
   



XX2247 was the standard key for the PDP-11.  And the VAXen, at least until DEC switched 
to plastic blank "keys" instead.


Thanks to Tony Duell,  Jay West, Dennis Boone and Paul Koning.

The reason I was asking is that I want a "hidden" HELP command
for one of the PDP-11 programs that I wish to enhance.  That HELP
command will require a "hidden" value, so what better number than
2247 for the value that will be required.  The command will not
actually be hidden, of course, since there will be some documentation.
But until the code associated with the HELP command is activated
by using the HELP command, the user will not see the "hidden" stuff.

It helps to have a sense of humour and look for a bit of fun when
code is being written.

Jerome Fine

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Dennis Boone]

 > You were able to deduce that from the "GRB 2"? Is that authoritative?
 > If so, I'd like to add it to the 11/05-10 page on the Computer
 > History Wiki.

Yes, I looked up "GRB 2" in the Chicago codebook.  The Chicago
designation for the blank is K5K.

De

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Dennis Boone

>> it says "Chicago Lock Co" and "GRB 2"

> Aha.
> Cut 215 on Ilco S1041T.

You were able to deduce that from the "GRB 2"? Is that authoritative? If so,
I'd like to add it to the 11/05-10 page on the Computer History Wiki.

Also, I have an original XX2065 (Data General) which I have no use for; if
anyone has an XX2247 they'd like to trade for it (new is fine too), please
let me know.

Noel

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Dennis Boone]

 > I have an original (which was used to make a ton of replicas for
 > people a while back); it says "Chicago Lock Co" and "GRB 2". No idea
 > what the latter means. The copies were made with Hillman Y11 and FR4
 > blanks (both work, but one has to be trimmed a bit, length-wise).

Aha.

Cut 215 on Ilco S1041T.

De

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Dennis Boone

> Haven't managed to id the 11/05 key yet.

I have an original (which was used to make a ton of replicas for people a
while back); it says "Chicago Lock Co" and "GRB 2". No idea what the latter
means. The copies were made with Hillman Y11 and FR4 blanks (both work, but
one has to be trimmed a bit, length-wise).

Noel

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Paul Koning]

> On Apr 24, 2016, at 8:54 PM, Jerome H. Fine  wrote:
> 
> >Kyle Owen wrote:
> 
>> On a related note, a former DEC field engineer gave me this key (and
>> keychain). He thought it was a PDP-8 key at first, but it's not the
>> standard XX2247. It says KBM1100...any ideas what this might go to?
>> 
>> http://imgur.com/a/4v8Hq
>> 
> I have followed this thread, but have not been interested enough
> to keep any of the old posts.
> ...
> The above post suggests that XX2247 was used for the PDP-8.
> If so, was any specific key used for the PDP-11?

XX2247 was the standard key for the PDP-11.  And the VAXen, at least until DEC 
switched to plastic blank "keys" instead.

paul

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Dennis Boone]

 > All the H967's I've seen had non-ace keys for the back doors.  Most
 > (if not all, can't remember) of my H960's use non-ace keys for the
 > back doors.

I believe the common back door key is a National C415A.  Cut 12343 b-t
on an Ilco 1069N blank.  These are also used in electrical panels, so
are trivially available on eBay and such.

Haven't managed to id the 11/05 key yet.

De

RE: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[tony duell]

> Just for curiosity, which Key codes were used for the PDP-11
> systems?  I used to have some PDP-11 racks for RL02 drives
> with a Qbus PDP-11/23 inside and I thought I remembered that
> XX2247 was used on them, but I would just like to know for sure.
> Actually, the more I think about it, just an Alan key was used.
> 
> The above post suggests that XX2247 was used for the PDP-8.
> If so, was any specific key used for the PDP-11?

As far as I know DEC never used a key lock on their cabinet doors. 
You might well need an allen key to remove the back of the rack 
cabinet, for example.

I have come across 3 keys for console switches on DEC machines : 

The XX2247 which is used on (at least) PDP8's and PDP11's

The later plastic tubular key with no pins in the lock. This is
used on later machines, VAXen, DECSA, etc. The XX2247
will fit this switch, but not the reverse.

A yale-type key used on the PDP11/05 and PDP11/10.

-tony

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Jerome H. Fine]

>Kyle Owen wrote:


On a related note, a former DEC field engineer gave me this key (and
keychain). He thought it was a PDP-8 key at first, but it's not the
standard XX2247. It says KBM1100...any ideas what this might go to?

http://imgur.com/a/4v8Hq


I have followed this thread, but have not been interested enough
to keep any of the old posts.

Just for curiosity, which Key codes were used for the PDP-11
systems?  I used to have some PDP-11 racks for RL02 drives
with a Qbus PDP-11/23 inside and I thought I remembered that
XX2247 was used on them, but I would just like to know for sure.
Actually, the more I think about it, just an Alan key was used.

The above post suggests that XX2247 was used for the PDP-8.
If so, was any specific key used for the PDP-11?

Jerome Fine

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Dennis Boone]

 > On a related note, a former DEC field engineer gave me this key (and
 > keychain). He thought it was a PDP-8 key at first, but it's not the
 > standard XX2247. It says KBM1100...any ideas what this might go to?

VAXen were used in GE EDACS repeater controllers, so perhaps one of
those systems?

De

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Dennis Boone]

 > What do you think of the Klom imitation of it?

Initial impressions of the Klom K-747 tubular key cutter

The Klom K-747 cutter is designed to cut Chicago ACE type tubular
keys, and the Fort equivalents.  It is available in at least four
key barrel sizes, 7.0mm, 7.3mm, 7.5mm and 7.8mm.  The "common" size
seems to be 7.8mm, which is the inside dimension of the key barrel.
(In US measurements of such tools given in inches, it seems more
common to specify the O.D.)  The 7.8mm size is the appropriate one
for cutting e.g. DEC XX2247 keys.

Comparing the Klom to the drawings and photos of the HPC device in
the HPC manual, the Klom has some differences: more labeling than
the HPC, less projection of the cutter shaft out the back, and more
contact between the cutter knob and the depth knob at the bottom of
a cut, a rotating key shaft.  In the absence of a Klom manual, the
HPC manual is useful in interacting with the Klom version in spite
of the differences between the devices.

The design concept is straightforward and should be fairly easy to use.
The unit comes with a T-style key gauge, but no manual or 2.5mm hex
key for making adjustments.  The Klom unit provides spring and bearing
detents to help hold the key to the proper pin position and the depth
knob at the selected setting.  With a key inserted for cutting, the
device is about 5 inches long, and just under 2 inches in diameter.
Overall, construction seems sturdy.  The finish is black paint which
seems to scratch fairly easily.

The Klom design does not allow cutting of left or right offset keys.

Both the rotational position knob and the cutter depth arrived in
need of adjustment.  Both operations are obvious.  The rotational
adjustment is trivial, since the shaft on which the key mounts for
cutting has detents.  All one must do is turn the key to the first
position, then loosen the set screw in the knob to align the "1" on
the knob with the true line.  The depth calibration is not as easy,
since one must adjust the distance the cutter shaft is slid into the
device by loosening the set screw in the knob, pushing it in a whisker,
and tightening the set screw.  Since the designated difference between
cut depths is 0.016", this is fiddly.

Chicago ACE numbers pins clockwise from the 1 o'clock position
(looking into the lock).  Fort numbers pins counterclockwise from
the 11 o'clock position.  There is also a difference in pin depth
numbering between the two manufacturers.  The Klom unit matches the
Chicago scheme.  The HPC manual describes these numbering schemes,
and the information there applies to the Klom as well.  You will need
to understand these differences, as well as which variant was used to
specify the bitting you will use, to cut a usable key.  Both brands
have some numbering painted on their knobs.  It seems that it would
quite easy to paint full rotation and depth numbering for both Chicago
and Fort schemes on them, which would make using the devices easier
for novices, but neither does this.

There is a little bit of play in several places that could affect
accuracy: the depth knob rotates a large screw whose threads could be
tighter; the end cap that holds the key on the shaft can wobble enough
to shift the key side to side a wee bit.  The cutter shaft also has
more play than is probably necessary, but that won't affect depth.

Since this is a low-cost Chinese device one would expect a few issues,
and this device does present a few:

* Both sets of detents were a bit grouchy at first, as if there was
a bit of manufacturing debris inside, but seemed to settle down some
after a few minutes use.

* I managed to accidentally rotate the depth adjustment a couple of
times while making a cut.  The knob that turns the cutter meets the
depth adjustment knob at the bottom of the cut, and depending on how
hard you're pressing, friction between the two may be enough to cause
the problem.  Murphy is (as always) on hand to ensure that when the
knob moves, it goes toward a deeper setting, spoiling the key.  This is
a design issue that will have to be worked around by paying careful
attention during use.  It would be nice if the depth could be locked.
There are set screws to adjust the spring tension on the detents,
and I tightened them a little.  This helped some, but not enough.

* In my first attempts, I had some small variations in depth of cut
between different pins that were supposed to have the same value.
The above notes on play probably explain this.  Practice will help.
I haven't tested enough yet to opine on the impact in terms of marginal
or bad keys.

* It would be nice if the key gauge was labeled on both sides, since
when holding it in one hand and the key in the other, one uses it
face up for odd cut sizes and face down for evens.  (You could also
turn the key around, but it's easier to keep track of where you are
if you flip the gauge.)  I find the T-style gauge easier to use for
fine evaluation of depth, and the Southord style 

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Mike Stein]

- Original Message - 
From: "Paul Koning" <paulkon...@comcast.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" <cct...@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)



> On Apr 19, 2016, at 4:15 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.st...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I finally found my micrometer; is there a cross-reference of pin # vs. depth 
> or just a list of standard depths for ACE keys somewhere?

Look here, http://www.hpcworld.com/mobile/km/pocketcutup/index.html, click "See 
the manual", it's at the bottom of the first page.



Well, that doesn't quite match Fred's numbers below, but close enough:

http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_and_space.htm#Chicago_Tubular_Space_and_Depth
> The depths by number are:
> 1 - 0.0155"
> 2 - 0.0310"
> 3 - 0.0465"
> 4 - 0.0620"
> 5 - 0.0775"
> 6 - 0.093"
> 7 - 0.1085"
> 8 - 0.1240"

So, assuming I did it right the code for the XX4306 key used in some Cromemco 
models is 5514457; anybody else want to confirm that?

m

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Dennis Boone]

 > It's a little costly for the amount of need that we have.  What do
 > you think of the Klom imitation of it?

I've got one of the Klom imitations coming.  Report to follow...

If it helps anyone, I can produce Chicago double-sided keys from code.
This sort of thing:

http://www.repeater-builder.com/keyspage/photos/key-2007.jpg

De

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Fred Cisin]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Mike Stein wrote:
I finally found my micrometer; is there a cross-reference of pin # vs. 
depth or just a list of standard depths for ACE keys somewhere?


Yes.  Called a "depth and space reference" (different for manufacturer, 
and sometimes blank)

5 years ago, we had a similar discussion:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote:

Not sure about tolerances (my brother is a locksmith but I'm not), but
according to...


http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_and_space.htm#Chicago_Tubular_Space_and_Depth

The depths by number are:
1 - 0.0155"
2 - 0.0310"
3 - 0.0465"
4 - 0.0620"
5 - 0.0775"
6 - 0.093"
7 - 0.1085"
8 - 0.1240"

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[geneb]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Fred Cisin wrote:


On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote:
Look here, http://www.hpcworld.com/mobile/km/pocketcutup/index.html, click 
"See the manual", it's at the bottom of the first page.
Looks like a neat little machine.  I don't have one (or any knowledge of 
these devices), but if I needed keys like that I'd consider it.


It's a little costly for the amount of need that we have.
What do you think of the Klom imitation of it?


If someone wants to send me a 3D model of a key, I'll try 3D printing one 
to see how that works out.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Fred Cisin]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote:

Look here, http://www.hpcworld.com/mobile/km/pocketcutup/index.html, click "See the 
manual", it's at the bottom of the first page.
Looks like a neat little machine.  I don't have one (or any knowledge of 
these devices), but if I needed keys like that I'd consider it.


It's a little costly for the amount of need that we have.
What do you think of the Klom imitation of it?

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Paul Koning]

> On Apr 19, 2016, at 4:15 PM, Mike Stein  wrote:
> 
> I finally found my micrometer; is there a cross-reference of pin # vs. depth 
> or just a list of standard depths for ACE keys somewhere?

Look here, http://www.hpcworld.com/mobile/km/pocketcutup/index.html, click "See 
the manual", it's at the bottom of the first page.

Looks like a neat little machine.  I don't have one (or any knowledge of these 
devices), but if I needed keys like that I'd consider it.

paul

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Mike Stein]

I finally found my micrometer; is there a cross-reference of pin # vs. depth or 
just a list of standard depths for ACE keys somewhere?

m

Re: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> On Feb 25, 2016, at 5:01 PM, Jay West  wrote:
> 
> But I did find there is apparently a service http://key.me where you take a
> picture of your key with their app, and they mail you a copy (or if there is
> a kiosk of theirs in your area, you can do it real time there).

Ooh! I can't wait to get my hands on a copy of *their* customer database :-)

RE: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Fred Cisin]

Some municipalities have restrictions on it, ranging from no restrictions to
outright ban, or requiring the locksmith to keep on file the identity of who
requested a key, and/or "proof" of ownership of the lock (physically
bringing it in, letter on company letterhead, etc.)


On Thu, 25 Feb 2016, Jay West wrote:

My current locksmith - the first time I went in and asked him to cut a key,
he said since it was stamped "do not duplicate" I would have to bring in the
item it went to. I walked out. Came back later that day with a two wheeler,
and lifted an HP 2100S cpu onto his counter. He no longer asks ;)


Many locksmiths, including most big-box home improvement stores (who no 
longer keep a decent array of keys), will cut a duplicate of a key that 
has a piece of masking tape over a "Do Not Duplicate" stamp!
It is illegal to duplicate a DO-NOT-Duplicate key for anybody too stupid 
to cover the staamp.



One thing strikes me... how to prevent incorrect data. I can think of two
types; A) Someone just types in bogus info, and B) I'm sure that over the
decades... someone in some computer room somewhere replaced a lock for
system XYZ with a standard off the shelf one. If they measure it and send in
the info - we have no way of knowing if that was a (computer) manufacturer
supplied lock and thus helpful to others, or some one-off that someone
installed themselves and thus an invalid datapoint.
Perhaps only list an entry if more than one person submits identical data?


Howzbout: list any that are reported, and a count of how many report that 
particular info.  That way, a single instance provides a hint of possible 
inaccuracies (easy to do), or even completely different than standard 
lock.   A dozen people reporting identical data is a pretty good 
confirmation, and if it doesn't work for you, then YOUR lock may have been 
replaced at some point.
If only one other person has that machine, I'd rather have their 
unconfimed measurements than a void in the database.



BTW, a decent machinist could easily build an Ace lock picking tool that 
is calibrated - the sliders could be set to me the same depths as any Ace 
key.  Without knowledge of commercial availability, I designed one (but 
didn't build) in high school half a century ago.

RE: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

[Jay West]

Fred wrote...
-
Some municipalities have restrictions on it, ranging from no restrictions to
outright ban, or requiring the locksmith to keep on file the identity of who
requested a key, and/or "proof" of ownership of the lock (physically
bringing it in, letter on company letterhead, etc.)
-
My current locksmith - the first time I went in and asked him to cut a key,
he said since it was stamped "do not duplicate" I would have to bring in the
item it went to. I walked out. Came back later that day with a two wheeler,
and lifted an HP 2100S cpu onto his counter. He no longer asks ;)

Fred that's fantastic info, thanks a ton. I imagine that if I post the info,
it's up to anyone wanting a key to find a locksmith that will do it, or
drive to a different municipality, etc I'm just supplying the data :)

One thing strikes me... how to prevent incorrect data. I can think of two
types; A) Someone just types in bogus info, and B) I'm sure that over the
decades... someone in some computer room somewhere replaced a lock for
system XYZ with a standard off the shelf one. If they measure it and send in
the info - we have no way of knowing if that was a (computer) manufacturer
supplied lock and thus helpful to others, or some one-off that someone
installed themselves and thus an invalid datapoint.

Perhaps only list an entry if more than one person submits identical data?

J