RE: Original CAD code in the wild?

[Paul McJones via cctalk]

Also, the computer history museum has a listing, so someone might be interested 
in getting the original code running on an emulator:

http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102726903

> On May 26, 2018, at 10:00 AM, ste...@malikoff.com wrote:
> 
> I don't know if any source is still available, but for a long time I've been 
> fascinated by Ivan Sutherland's Sketchpad running on the TX-2:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USyoT_Ha_bA
> 
> Since Sutherland's technical report is also on the web 
> (https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-574.html) I reckon it would 
> make for a great 3rd-year Computer Science graphics assignment, to replicate 
> Sketchpad using a high level language. A look through the report shows the 
> use of rings, linked lists, recursion, storage considerations, maths, 
> graphics and so on (only needing to replace the light pen with the mouse of 
> course) which could be a fascinating exercise for a student. Yes there are 
> already Sketchpad-named apps and Sketchpad-like programs, but I'm not sure if 
> there is a near-100% faithful recreation of that original program as demoed 
> in the film out there.
> 
> Steve.

Re: Original CAD code in the wild?

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

Commodore 64/128 CAD programs, and maybe sample files

http://www.vintagecomputer.net/commodore/64/d64_library/CAD/

BIll

On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 2:43 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk  wrote:

>
>
> On 5/25/18 7:16 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:
> > I don't know if any source is still available, but for a long time I've
> been fascinated by Ivan Sutherland's Sketchpad running on the TX-2:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USyoT_Ha_bA
>
>
> It isn't. I've asked Ivan and he hasn't been willing to release it, mainly
> because he doesn't think anyone will be able
> to do anything with the code because the TX-2 instruction set was in a
> constant state of flux.
>
> There were a few things CHM got from Ivan within the past few years. I'll
> see if someone else had better luck.
>
>
>
>

Re: Original CAD code in the wild?

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 5/25/18 7:16 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:
> I don't know if any source is still available, but for a long time I've been 
> fascinated by Ivan Sutherland's Sketchpad running on the TX-2:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USyoT_Ha_bA


It isn't. I've asked Ivan and he hasn't been willing to release it, mainly 
because he doesn't think anyone will be able
to do anything with the code because the TX-2 instruction set was in a constant 
state of flux.

There were a few things CHM got from Ivan within the past few years. I'll see 
if someone else had better luck.

RE: Original CAD code in the wild?

[Steve Malikoff via cctalk]

I don't know if any source is still available, but for a long time I've been 
fascinated by Ivan Sutherland's Sketchpad running on the TX-2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USyoT_Ha_bA

Since Sutherland's technical report is also on the web 
(https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-574.html) I reckon it would 
make for
a great 3rd-year Computer Science graphics assignment, to replicate Sketchpad 
using a high level language. A look through the report shows the
use of rings, linked lists, recursion, storage considerations, maths, graphics 
and so on (only needing to replace the light pen with the mouse
of course) which could be a fascinating exercise for a student.
Yes there are already Sketchpad-named apps and Sketchpad-like programs, but I'm 
not sure if there is a near-100% faithful recreation of that
original program as demoed in the film out there.

Steve.

RE: Original CAD code in the wild?

[Rick Bensene via cctalk]

Many moons ago, at Tektronix, I did a stint working in the Scientific Computer 
Center's Computer-Aided Design Development group.
There was a software package, written in FORTRAN (77, I believe) on Tek's 
Control Data Cyber 73 system running KRONOS, called PIRATE.
It was an automated circuit board placer/router.  It would take in netlist 
information, along with information about board geometry and locations of fixed 
components, along with a library of component information (e.g., IC pinouts and 
packaging geometry), and generate Gerber photoplotter output, and NC drill 
tapes.

The timeframe I was in the group was around 1977 to 1981 or so. 

I don't have any of that old code, sadly.   But, I figured I'd mention it here, 
as perhaps maybe somewhere, someone has it.
I remember that the first name of the guy that wrote it was Roger, but for the 
life of me, I can't remember his last name.
I recall that Roger was brilliant, and was constantly tweaking the placement 
and maze-router algorithms to improve the placement and routing performance.
 It could do complex multi-layer boards, with internal vias, ground planes and 
power planes, etc.   

It would be cool if it could be found and archived.

-Rick
--
Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com

Re: Original CAD code in the wild?

[Paul McJones via cctalk]

Randy,

Although there are people interested in collecting historic software 
(especially source code), I don’t know of a central place to discuss it. I’ve 
collected the original IBM 704 Fortran/Fortran II compiler, the original IBM 
709x Lisp II interpreter, and various other things (see 
http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects). As you build up your collection 
of CAD-related source code, I would encourage you to offer copies to the 
Computer History Museum (http://www.computerhistory.org/artifactdonation/) for 
long-term preservation.


Paul McJones
http://www.mcjones.org/dustydecks/

On May 21, 2018, Randy Dawson  wrote:

> For a while I have collected bits of legacy CAD, most recently Martin 
> Hepperle sent me what I believe is the last version of Hank Christianson's 
> MOVIE.BYU, a FORTRAN based 3D modeling and animation system.
> I also have experimented with the original Berkley SPICE, also written in 
> FORTRAN.
> ...
> My question is, did any of the source code for these systems, Applicon, 
> Auto-Trol, Calma, ComputerVision, thousands of lines of primarily FORTRAN 
> ever make it out, where we could read and study this original body of 
> mathematical geometry done on computers?
> 
> I know we are primarily a hardware group here, but where is the interest in 
> the software discussed?
> 
> Randy

Re: Original CAD code in the wild?

[John Foust via cctalk]

At 09:31 PM 5/20/2018, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
>For a while I have collected bits of legacy CAD, most recently 
>Martin Hepperle sent me what I believe is the last version of 
>Hank Christianson's MOVIE.BYU, a FORTRAN based 3D modeling and animation 
>system.

I supported MovieBYU 3D object import/export in my 3D conversion tool, 
InterChange.  Although it didn't have any commercial appeal, it did 
impress the BYU grads at Viewpoint Datalabs.  

I look forward to seeing more emulated and virtual machine recreations
of old software situations.  You should be able to run an old environment
easily on a desktop or even in a web browser.  I think they're educational 
for students of today and tomorrow.

Is that MovieBYU code on the web somewhere?

At 06:37 PM 5/22/2018, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
>"The BRL-CAD source code repository is the oldest known public
>version-controlled codebase in the world that's still under active
>development, dating back to 1983-12-16 00:10:31."
>[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRL-CAD ]
>
>I could not verify this claim, because I could not load SourceForge
>page before my patience ran out (thank you, Javascript, I guess).

I remember ordering BRL-CAD source and manuals, perhaps directly
from them in the late 1980s.  It was massive even back then.

- John

Re: Original CAD code in the wild?

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

On 5/22/2018 5:18 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
> At 09:31 AM 5/22/2018, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:
>> I still have an Intergraph IP2000 workstation (with software loaded),
>> install media (but not license keys to load it) and Intergraph disk
>> controllers, high speed concentrators (pre-Ethernet) and ethernet
>> controllers.
> 
> Did you get that from Nicolet or ETC?  I think I was once offered
> a workstation like that but I forget which Madison friend offered it.
> 
> - John
> 
> 

Neither.  Wisconsin DOT, Superior office (if I recall correctly), via
State of Wisconsin surplus.  Two huge screens along with, but I only
have one hooked up.  Haven't run it in years, though.

Re: Original CAD code in the wild?

[Pete Lancashire via cctalk]

As I clean out if I run across the nine track mag tape of TekCADand
mechanical 2D CAD package you can have it. It is source code of 80 column
cards of Fortran IV.

On Tue, May 22, 2018, 4:37 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 02:31:58AM +, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
> [...]
> >
> > www.cadhistory.net
> >
> > The Engineering Design Revolution
> > www.cadhistory.net
> > The Engineering Design Revolution. The People, Companies and
> > Computer Systems That Changed Forever the Practice of
> > Engineering. By. David E. Weisberg
>
> Looks interesting. Thanks a lot for bringing this up.
>
> > My question is, did any of the source code for these systems,
> > Applicon, Auto-Trol, Calma, ComputerVision, thousands of lines of
> > primarily FORTRAN ever make it out, where we could read and study
> > this original body of mathematical geometry done on computers?
>
> I suspect you already know, but just to be sure:
>
> "The BRL-CAD source code repository is the oldest known public
> version-controlled codebase in the world that's still under active
> development, dating back to 1983-12-16 00:10:31."
>
> [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRL-CAD ]
>
> I could not verify this claim, because I could not load SourceForge
> page before my patience ran out (thank you, Javascript, I guess).
>
> --
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola
>
> --
> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
> ** **
> ** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
>
>

Re: Original CAD code in the wild?

[Tomasz Rola via cctalk]

On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 02:31:58AM +, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> 
> www.cadhistory.net
> 
> The Engineering Design Revolution
> www.cadhistory.net
> The Engineering Design Revolution. The People, Companies and
> Computer Systems That Changed Forever the Practice of
> Engineering. By. David E. Weisberg

Looks interesting. Thanks a lot for bringing this up.

> My question is, did any of the source code for these systems,
> Applicon, Auto-Trol, Calma, ComputerVision, thousands of lines of
> primarily FORTRAN ever make it out, where we could read and study
> this original body of mathematical geometry done on computers?

I suspect you already know, but just to be sure:

"The BRL-CAD source code repository is the oldest known public
version-controlled codebase in the world that's still under active
development, dating back to 1983-12-16 00:10:31."

[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRL-CAD ]

I could not verify this claim, because I could not load SourceForge
page before my patience ran out (thank you, Javascript, I guess).

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

Re: Original CAD code in the wild?

[John Foust via cctalk]

At 09:31 AM 5/22/2018, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:
>I still have an Intergraph IP2000 workstation (with software loaded),
>install media (but not license keys to load it) and Intergraph disk
>controllers, high speed concentrators (pre-Ethernet) and ethernet
>controllers.

Did you get that from Nicolet or ETC?  I think I was once offered
a workstation like that but I forget which Madison friend offered it.

- John

Re: Original CAD code in the wild?

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

On 5/20/2018 9:31 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
> For a while I have collected bits of legacy CAD, most recently Martin 
> Hepperle sent me what I believe is the last version of Hank Christianson's 
> MOVIE.BYU, a FORTRAN based 3D modeling and animation system.
> 
> I also have experimented with the original Berkley SPICE, also written in 
> FORTRAN.
> 
> 
> This weekend, I am reading "the Engineering Design Revolution", a 650 page 
> history of the CAD industry by David Weisberg, who was there and worked for 
> many of the companies in the beginning of the industry, I highly recommend 
> this for anyone interested in CAD:
> 
> 
> www.cadhistory.net
> 
> The Engineering Design Revolution
> www.cadhistory.net
> The Engineering Design Revolution. The People, Companies and Computer Systems 
> That Changed Forever the Practice of Engineering. By. David E. Weisberg
> 
> 
> 
> My question is, did any of the source code for these systems, Applicon, 
> Auto-Trol, Calma, ComputerVision, thousands of lines of primarily FORTRAN 
> ever make it out, where we could read and study this original body of 
> mathematical geometry done on computers?
> 
> 
> I know we are primarily a hardware group here, but where is the interest in 
> the software discussed?
> 
> 
> Randy
> 
> 
> 
> 

You can add Intergraph to that list, as well (their IGDS CAD software is
 survived bw www.bentley.com - a company that produced a PC version of
Intergraph's IGDS, and which almost got sued out of existence, forced to
merge, and then finally separated and survived).  [The Wiki on
MicroStation indicates that MicroStation was initially sold by
Intergraph.  That is not correct: it was initially a completely separate
company, and sold the software directly].  Intergraph itself is nothing
but a shell.

I still have an Intergraph IP2000 workstation (with software loaded),
install media (but not license keys to load it) and Intergraph disk
controllers, high speed concentrators (pre-Ethernet) and ethernet
controllers.

No source code, though.

JRJ

Re: Original CAD code in the wild?

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

>From: Al Kossow

> NASTRAN is available 

That's a finite element modeling code, isn't it? (I guess it all depends on
what the OP meant by 'CAD'...)

Noel

Re: Original CAD code in the wild?

[Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk]

Noel Chiappa wrote:
> the original Stanford SUDS is still available, I think.

Yes, it's available from saildart.org.

Re: Original CAD code in the wild?

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 5/21/18 6:03 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

> Another old CAD program is NEC2, the antenna (etc.) simulator. 

I forgot to post about it here, but NASTRAN is available on github along with a 
lot of other NASA code.

https://github.com/nasa/

It is unlikely that the sources ever made it out from the CAD companies that 
gobbled each other up in the 70's to 90's

Re: Original CAD code in the wild?

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On May 21, 2018, at 7:52 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> From: Randy Dawson
> 
>> For a while I have collected bits of legacy CAD
>> ... 
>> My question is, did any of the source code for these systems
>> .. ever make it out
> 
> Well, not quite what you're asking about, I think (it sounds like you're
> interested in MechE CAD, not EE, even though SPICE was mentioned), but the
> original Stanford SUDS is still available, I think.

Another old CAD program is NEC2, the antenna (etc.) simulator.  Derivatives of 
it are still around.  About 20 years ago I found a version (in FORTRAN IV) 
which had been tweaked for DEC Fortran, and worked fine with gfortran.  I found 
that the documentation and full source code were available from the US 
Government (in printed form).

paul

Re: Original CAD code in the wild?

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Randy Dawson

> For a while I have collected bits of legacy CAD
> ... 
> My question is, did any of the source code for these systems
> .. ever make it out

Well, not quite what you're asking about, I think (it sounds like you're
interested in MechE CAD, not EE, even though SPICE was mentioned), but the
original Stanford SUDS is still available, I think.

> I know we are primarily a hardware group here, but where is the
> interest in the software discussed?

Is that a plaint ('how come we don't do software'), or a query ('where is
software discussed')? If the latter, it tends to be system specific, from
what I've seen - e.g. there's 'TUHS' for Unix, "its-hackers" for ITS, etc.

Noel

Re: Original CAD code in the wild?

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

prolly hiding in closets of architecutre offices enineerin frims


On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 9:31 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> For a while I have collected bits of legacy CAD, most recently Martin
> Hepperle sent me what I believe is the last version of Hank Christianson's
> MOVIE.BYU, a FORTRAN based 3D modeling and animation system.
>
> I also have experimented with the original Berkley SPICE, also written in
> FORTRAN.
>
>
> This weekend, I am reading "the Engineering Design Revolution", a 650 page
> history of the CAD industry by David Weisberg, who was there and worked for
> many of the companies in the beginning of the industry, I highly recommend
> this for anyone interested in CAD:
>
>
> www.cadhistory.net
>
> The Engineering Design Revolution
> www.cadhistory.net
> The Engineering Design Revolution. The People, Companies and Computer
> Systems That Changed Forever the Practice of Engineering. By. David E.
> Weisberg
>
>
>
> My question is, did any of the source code for these systems, Applicon,
> Auto-Trol, Calma, ComputerVision, thousands of lines of primarily FORTRAN
> ever make it out, where we could read and study this original body of
> mathematical geometry done on computers?
>
>
> I know we are primarily a hardware group here, but where is the interest
> in the software discussed?
>
>
> Randy
>
>
>
>