Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> My copy of of the V7 standalone stuff (which I got from the VTServer
> directory) didn't include an RX driver. Where'd you manage to find one?

So, thanks to a tip (thanks, Jerry! :-), the source has been found:

  https://github.com/chapmajs/vtserver/tree/master/pdpvtstand
  http://www.shiresoft.com/pdp-11/software/ 

For some reason, the TUHS Archive doesn't contain the later versions of
VTServer:

  http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Tools/Tapes/Vtserver/

and in those (unlike the earlier versions), the standalone source is in the
same archive file as VTServer itself.

Noel

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

> On Dec 16, 2017, at 7:59 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 12/16/2017 05:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> So, some of us do not trust the labels on disks.
> 

I don’t trust the labels on my floppies.  

Especially those with with my handwriting.

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/16/2017 05:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> So, some of us do not trust the labels on disks.

Ha.  I lost a bit of hair when I received a batch of 8" hard-sector
disks and tried to make sense of them.   What were obviously sector
headers didn't line up at all with any of the sector holes.

It wasn't until I got to the bottom of the pile that I noticed that one
was a soft-sectored disk.

To make a long story short, it's possible to set some drives for
hard-sectored operation, with sector pulses output to a different pin
than index pulses.  If one simply ignores the separate sector output,
one can use either soft- or hard-sectored floppies in soft-sector mode.

I did verify that this is exactly what the customer had done.

--Chuck

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sat, 16 Dec 2017, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote:

The ones
labelled RT-11 don't actually have RT-11 on them, just some random
files, and these were the ones I had tried to boot from.


Yep.
Being labelled "RT-11" does not mean that they have RT-11 on them.
They could be Compupro disks from the accounting department, containing 
the bookkeeping/invoices for the RT-11 system.
They could be disks from a writer containing a manuscript for an 
instruction manual for RT-11.
They could be transportation department disks relating to Route 11 between 
Louisiana and New York.
They could be Robert Thompson's disk from 2011.  Or just disk #11 of his 
set.

Or "Russia Today"
Or the IBM "RT PC"
Or "Real Time", . . .


Long ago, we had an "interesting" series of discussions here, when 
somebody claimed to have OS/2 on a PDP!  They were apparently PDP disks 
labelled "OS/2". (He also told us that FORTRAN was based on Valtrep 
(1990s); that his 1990s Sun computer was the first computer used for 
e-mail; and he asserted that his "copy everything" program could copy 
alignment disks.)


When people "need" a blank disk, and none are handy, they might use 
ANYTHING.  Therefore, even disks with factory labels identifying them as 
system installation disks don't necessarily have that on them, nor even 
that they are in the format expected for the machine.


We once had a "technician" in the school computer lab reformat several 
boxes of disks, because the machine that he tried them in couldn't 
read them, without even realizing that they were a different digk 
format for a different machine!



So, some of us do not trust the labels on disks.

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Aaron Jackson via cctalk]

Thanks for the tips! :)

Aaron.

allison via cctalk writes:

> If you have a system that can create/format SSSD (base RX01 media
> format) RT11 can
> reformat that as RX02. Of the top of my hear the command is INIT and
> you specify the
> drive and /double. It cannot format a blank disk but it can set a RX01
> format to
> double density.
>
> Note a RX02 on a PDP-11 will not boot RT11 if it has the RX01 boot drive
> in place, you must have
> the RX02 driver built into the boot.
>
> Whenever you have a disk fail its advisable to check the heads for crud
> buildup (on RX01, RX02,
> or RX33 and RX23) as sometimes the binder on the media goes to goo and
> coats the head. If
> that happens the next good disk can have the media gouged off. Been
> there done that. I
> always test new media (dir /bad) on drive 2 so if it fails the system
> still boots and likeliness
> of munging the boot media is lower.
>
> I use my S100 CP/M crate for format blanks for RX01 and using R11CPM I
> can copy files
> between the two system (sneakerware).
>
> To read a RX02 formatted disk you must have a RX02 or one of the
> functional equivalents like a DSD
> or Emulex. PCs cannot without a special board.
>
> A slick trick for Qbus 11s is install a RQDX2/3 and put a RX33 or RX23
> drive on that as the formats
> they use are PC readable at the base ODS. I managed to get a few RQDX3s
> just for that in the various
> Qbus 11s I have. Even if you do not have a MFM hard disk for the
> RQDX2/3 is a good choice for floppies
> and it can format media. It also can store more on the media.
>
>
> Allison
>
>
>
> On 12/16/2017 04:21 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote:
>>  Glad to hear that you cleared that up.   
>>
>> For the other floppies.
>>
>> 1)  DUMP/TERM/RAD50/END:0 DY1: 
>>  If you share the listing that will give us some hints as to the OS on 
>> the floppies.
>>
>> 2) DIR/BAD DY1:
>> will do a bad block scan to see if can read all of the blocks on the 
>> media.  It
>> does not require an RT11 directory, despite the command name.  It uses
>> the utility DUP.SAV with the K option, not DIR.SAV  You will hear the 
>> floppy
>> reset if it sees a bad spot as it attempts a retry.  The number of 
>> retries
>> is configurable via a SET command.
>>
>> For files with an RT11 Directory, DIR/BAD/FILES will include the file 
>> name
>> of files affected by unreadable blocks.
>>
>> You can do the same with the RL02 Drives.
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:28 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk 
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> I just checked all of them in RT-11, out of 12 floppies, two of them
>>> were bad, or at least I am unable to perform dir in RT-11.
>>>
>>> My source of confusion comes from both A) not being able to boot from
>>> any of them, and B) not being able to dump them using vtserver. The ones
>>> labelled RT-11 don't actually have RT-11 on them, just some random
>>> files, and these were the ones I had tried to boot from.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure why vtserver doesn't seem to work though. I have Kermit in
>>> RT-11, is there a way to dump the other drive over this? I would like to
>>> put LSI Unix on one of the floppies, can this be done with Kermit too?
>>>
>>> While on the topic of vtserver, it also doesn't seem to like my RL02
>>> drive. If I try to write to it or dump a cartridge, it tells me that it
>>> was unable to read the labelsector. About the thing vtserver has done is
>>> launch itself over odt.
>>>
>>> RT-11 is unable to list the files on the RL02 drive, but maybe they are
>>> UNIX or maybe they are dead packs...
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Aaron.
>>>
>>>
>>> systems_glitch via cctalk writes:
>>>
 We've gotten around the formatting issue by formatting SSSD using ImageDisk
 on a regular PC (with a floppy controller that supports single density/FM,
 of course). If you want RX02 media there's an XXDP routine to upconvert
 RX01s to RX02s.

 Thanks,
 Jonathan

 On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
 cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 12/16/2017 10:43 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2017, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote:
>>> Well, would you believe it. It was the disks after all. I can't believe
>>> they are all bad!
>> I can believe it.
>> Were they "bad"?
>> Or just not what they were labelled as being?
> I suspect that they weren't formatted to the 3740 spec (26/128 FM).
> ISTR that the RX02 doesn't have formatting abilities.
>
> The other possibility is that the disks were DS rather than SS
> (different index aperture position).
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Aaron Jackson
>>> PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham
>>> http://aaronsplace.co.uk
>>
>>
>>


-- 
Aaron Jackson
PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham
http://aaronsplace.co.uk

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[allison via cctalk]

If you have a system that can create/format SSSD (base RX01 media
format) RT11 can
reformat that as RX02.  Of the top of my hear the command is INIT and
you specify the
drive and /double.  It cannot format a blank disk but it can set a RX01
format to
double density.

Note a RX02 on a PDP-11 will not boot RT11 if it has the RX01 boot drive
in place, you must have
the RX02 driver built into the boot.

Whenever you have a disk fail its advisable to check the heads for crud
buildup (on RX01, RX02,
or RX33 and RX23) as sometimes the binder on the media goes to goo and
coats the head.  If
that happens the next good disk can have the media gouged off.  Been
there done that.  I
always test new media (dir /bad) on drive 2 so if it fails the system
still boots and likeliness
of munging the boot media is lower.

I use my S100 CP/M crate for format blanks for RX01 and using R11CPM I
can copy files
between the two system (sneakerware).

To read a RX02 formatted disk you must have a RX02 or one of the
functional equivalents like a DSD
or Emulex.  PCs cannot without a special board.

A slick trick for Qbus 11s is install a RQDX2/3 and put a RX33 or RX23
drive on that as the formats
they use are PC readable at the base ODS.  I managed to get a few RQDX3s
just for that in the various
Qbus 11s I have.  Even if you do not have a MFM hard disk for the
RQDX2/3 is a good choice for floppies
and it can format media.  It also can store more on the media.


Allison



On 12/16/2017 04:21 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote:
>  Glad to hear that you cleared that up.   
>
> For the other floppies.
>
> 1)  DUMP/TERM/RAD50/END:0 DY1: 
>  If you share the listing that will give us some hints as to the OS on 
> the floppies.
>
> 2) DIR/BAD DY1:
> will do a bad block scan to see if can read all of the blocks on the 
> media.  It
> does not require an RT11 directory, despite the command name.  It uses
> the utility DUP.SAV with the K option, not DIR.SAV  You will hear the 
> floppy
> reset if it sees a bad spot as it attempts a retry.  The number of retries
> is configurable via a SET command.
>
> For files with an RT11 Directory, DIR/BAD/FILES will include the file name
> of files affected by unreadable blocks.
>
> You can do the same with the RL02 Drives.
>
> Jerry
>
>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:28 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> I just checked all of them in RT-11, out of 12 floppies, two of them
>> were bad, or at least I am unable to perform dir in RT-11.
>>
>> My source of confusion comes from both A) not being able to boot from
>> any of them, and B) not being able to dump them using vtserver. The ones
>> labelled RT-11 don't actually have RT-11 on them, just some random
>> files, and these were the ones I had tried to boot from.
>>
>> I'm not sure why vtserver doesn't seem to work though. I have Kermit in
>> RT-11, is there a way to dump the other drive over this? I would like to
>> put LSI Unix on one of the floppies, can this be done with Kermit too?
>>
>> While on the topic of vtserver, it also doesn't seem to like my RL02
>> drive. If I try to write to it or dump a cartridge, it tells me that it
>> was unable to read the labelsector. About the thing vtserver has done is
>> launch itself over odt.
>>
>> RT-11 is unable to list the files on the RL02 drive, but maybe they are
>> UNIX or maybe they are dead packs...
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Aaron.
>>
>>
>> systems_glitch via cctalk writes:
>>
>>> We've gotten around the formatting issue by formatting SSSD using ImageDisk
>>> on a regular PC (with a floppy controller that supports single density/FM,
>>> of course). If you want RX02 media there's an XXDP routine to upconvert
>>> RX01s to RX02s.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jonathan
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
>>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>
 On 12/16/2017 10:43 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2017, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote:
>> Well, would you believe it. It was the disks after all. I can't believe
>> they are all bad!
> I can believe it.
> Were they "bad"?
> Or just not what they were labelled as being?
 I suspect that they weren't formatted to the 3740 spec (26/128 FM).
 ISTR that the RX02 doesn't have formatting abilities.

 The other possibility is that the disks were DS rather than SS
 (different index aperture position).

 --Chuck



>>
>> --
>> Aaron Jackson
>> PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham
>> http://aaronsplace.co.uk
>
>
>

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

 Glad to hear that you cleared that up.   

For the other floppies.

1)  DUMP/TERM/RAD50/END:0 DY1: 
 If you share the listing that will give us some hints as to the OS on the 
floppies.

2) DIR/BAD DY1:
will do a bad block scan to see if can read all of the blocks on the media. 
 It
does not require an RT11 directory, despite the command name.  It uses
the utility DUP.SAV with the K option, not DIR.SAV  You will hear the floppy
reset if it sees a bad spot as it attempts a retry.  The number of retries
is configurable via a SET command.

For files with an RT11 Directory, DIR/BAD/FILES will include the file name
of files affected by unreadable blocks.

You can do the same with the RL02 Drives.

Jerry

> On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:28 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> I just checked all of them in RT-11, out of 12 floppies, two of them
> were bad, or at least I am unable to perform dir in RT-11.
> 
> My source of confusion comes from both A) not being able to boot from
> any of them, and B) not being able to dump them using vtserver. The ones
> labelled RT-11 don't actually have RT-11 on them, just some random
> files, and these were the ones I had tried to boot from.
> 
> I'm not sure why vtserver doesn't seem to work though. I have Kermit in
> RT-11, is there a way to dump the other drive over this? I would like to
> put LSI Unix on one of the floppies, can this be done with Kermit too?
> 
> While on the topic of vtserver, it also doesn't seem to like my RL02
> drive. If I try to write to it or dump a cartridge, it tells me that it
> was unable to read the labelsector. About the thing vtserver has done is
> launch itself over odt.
> 
> RT-11 is unable to list the files on the RL02 drive, but maybe they are
> UNIX or maybe they are dead packs...
> 
> Thanks,
> Aaron.
> 
> 
> systems_glitch via cctalk writes:
> 
>> We've gotten around the formatting issue by formatting SSSD using ImageDisk
>> on a regular PC (with a floppy controller that supports single density/FM,
>> of course). If you want RX02 media there's an XXDP routine to upconvert
>> RX01s to RX02s.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Jonathan
>> 
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 12/16/2017 10:43 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
 On Sat, 16 Dec 2017, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote:
> Well, would you believe it. It was the disks after all. I can't believe
> they are all bad!
 
 I can believe it.
 Were they "bad"?
 Or just not what they were labelled as being?
>>> 
>>> I suspect that they weren't formatted to the 3740 spec (26/128 FM).
>>> ISTR that the RX02 doesn't have formatting abilities.
>>> 
>>> The other possibility is that the disks were DS rather than SS
>>> (different index aperture position).
>>> 
>>> --Chuck
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
> --
> Aaron Jackson
> PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham
> http://aaronsplace.co.uk

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Aaron Jackson via cctalk]

I just checked all of them in RT-11, out of 12 floppies, two of them
were bad, or at least I am unable to perform dir in RT-11.

My source of confusion comes from both A) not being able to boot from
any of them, and B) not being able to dump them using vtserver. The ones
labelled RT-11 don't actually have RT-11 on them, just some random
files, and these were the ones I had tried to boot from.

I'm not sure why vtserver doesn't seem to work though. I have Kermit in
RT-11, is there a way to dump the other drive over this? I would like to
put LSI Unix on one of the floppies, can this be done with Kermit too?

While on the topic of vtserver, it also doesn't seem to like my RL02
drive. If I try to write to it or dump a cartridge, it tells me that it
was unable to read the labelsector. About the thing vtserver has done is
launch itself over odt.

RT-11 is unable to list the files on the RL02 drive, but maybe they are
UNIX or maybe they are dead packs...

Thanks,
Aaron.


systems_glitch via cctalk writes:

> We've gotten around the formatting issue by formatting SSSD using ImageDisk
> on a regular PC (with a floppy controller that supports single density/FM,
> of course). If you want RX02 media there's an XXDP routine to upconvert
> RX01s to RX02s.
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> On 12/16/2017 10:43 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> > On Sat, 16 Dec 2017, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote:
>> >> Well, would you believe it. It was the disks after all. I can't believe
>> >> they are all bad!
>> >
>> > I can believe it.
>> > Were they "bad"?
>> > Or just not what they were labelled as being?
>>
>> I suspect that they weren't formatted to the 3740 spec (26/128 FM).
>> ISTR that the RX02 doesn't have formatting abilities.
>>
>> The other possibility is that the disks were DS rather than SS
>> (different index aperture position).
>>
>> --Chuck
>>
>>
>>


--
Aaron Jackson
PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham
http://aaronsplace.co.uk

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[systems_glitch via cctalk]

We've gotten around the formatting issue by formatting SSSD using ImageDisk
on a regular PC (with a floppy controller that supports single density/FM,
of course). If you want RX02 media there's an XXDP routine to upconvert
RX01s to RX02s.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 12/16/2017 10:43 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> > On Sat, 16 Dec 2017, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote:
> >> Well, would you believe it. It was the disks after all. I can't believe
> >> they are all bad!
> >
> > I can believe it.
> > Were they "bad"?
> > Or just not what they were labelled as being?
>
> I suspect that they weren't formatted to the 3740 spec (26/128 FM).
> ISTR that the RX02 doesn't have formatting abilities.
>
> The other possibility is that the disks were DS rather than SS
> (different index aperture position).
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/16/2017 10:43 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2017, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote:
>> Well, would you believe it. It was the disks after all. I can't believe
>> they are all bad!
> 
> I can believe it.
> Were they "bad"?
> Or just not what they were labelled as being?

I suspect that they weren't formatted to the 3740 spec (26/128 FM).
ISTR that the RX02 doesn't have formatting abilities.

The other possibility is that the disks were DS rather than SS
(different index aperture position).

--Chuck

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sat, 16 Dec 2017, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote:

Well, would you believe it. It was the disks after all. I can't believe
they are all bad!


I can believe it.
Were they "bad"?
Or just not what they were labelled as being?

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Aaron Jackson via cctalk]

> > From: Aaron Jackson
>
> > It was the disks after all.
>
> Well, I'm glad you got it working. Where'd you get a good floppy?
>
>   Noel

Friend popped over with an RX02 drive and a working RT-11 floppy. The
drive worked with my controller so I tried the disk in my own drive and
it booted up straight away.

He suggested it might be likely that all my drives were magnetically
erased before I got them. I think this is quite likely.

There is still one RX02 mystery though... VTserver will not dump the
working disk, despite the system being able to boot from it. It's double
density, so I am a bit surprised.

Thanks,
Aaron.

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Aaron Jackson

> It was the disks after all.

Well, I'm glad you got it working. Where'd you get a good floppy?

Noel

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Aaron Jackson via cctalk]

Well, would you believe it. It was the disks after all. I can't believe
they are all bad!

Just booted straight into RT-11.

Thanks all for your help anyway. Time to play.

Aaron.



Aaron Jackson via cctalk writes:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I originally posted this on VCFed (which was new to me) but the
> moderation queue has had me waiting for about 3 days, so I thought I'd
> ask here as well, the usual of gurus. :)
>
> I was recently sent an RXV21 controller so I could test out my RX02
> drive. When I power up the PDP-11 or reset the machine I get the nice
> clunking sound which I have been told is normal. I expect I wouldn't
> hear this if the ribbon cable was in the wrong way.
>
> To test, I tried to use VTserver to dump the contents of a disk, but it
> immediately threw an error. I soon realised there are two DIP switches
> on the logic board of the RX02 drive which had to be adjusted to work
> with the RXV21. So, I had some progress. Output of VTserver almost
> looked promising but then it hangs, as below:
>
> ]] Tape record n from device xx is written as xx(0,0,n)
> ]] Disk drive xx is written as xx(0,0,0)
> ]]
> ]] Enter name of input record/device: rx(0,0,0)
> ]] Enter name of output record/device: vt(0,0,1)
> ]]
> ]] Opened copy.out read-write
> ]]
>
> So, following some advice I booted via TU58em into XXDP and ran the
> diagnostics:
>
> ]] DR>STA
> ]]
> ]] CHANGE HW (L)  ? N
> ]]
> ]] CHANGE SW (L)  ? N
> ]]
> ]] CZRXFB0 SYS FTL ERR  00040 ON UNIT 00 TST 011 SUB 000 PC: 003476
> ]]  CSR BITS - LGC TST
> ]]   AC LOW FATAL ERROR
> ]]   REG ACTUAL=00
> ]]   REG EXPECT=00
> ]]
> ]]   POSSIBLE FAILING "FRU'S":
> ]] INTERFACE - M8029
> ]]
> ]]   UNIT#0 RXCSR=00 RXESR=00 CMD=00 ->
> ]]  ->NO PWR, CABLED BACKWARDS, STRAPPED RX01, PDP-8
> ]]  DROP UNIT#0 FROM TEST
> ]]
> ]] PASS ABRTD THS UNIT
> ]] CZRXFB0 SYS FTL ERR  00040 ON UNIT 01 TST 011 SUB 000 PC: 003476
> ]]  CSR BITS - LGC TST
> ]]   AC LOW FATAL ERROR
> ]]   REG ACTUAL=00
> ]]   REG EXPECT=00
> ]]
> ]]   POSSIBLE FAILING "FRU'S":
> ]] INTERFACE - M8029
> ]]
> ]]   UNIT#1 RXCSR=00 RXESR=00 CMD=00 ->
> ]]  ->NO PWR, CABLED BACKWARDS, STRAPPED RX01, PDP-8
> ]]  DROP UNIT#1 FROM TEST
> ]]
> ]] PASS ABRTD THS UNIT
> ]] CZRXFB0 EOP1
> ]] 2 TOTAL ERRS
>
> So, the possible errors according to XXDP:
>
> - Bad power - I get 25v, 5v and -5v. The motors are spinning, not
>   convinced it is this?
>
> - Cable backwards - I don't think I'd be hearing that clunk.
>
> - Strapped RX01 - I don't know what this means
>
> - PDP8 - eh?
>
> If anyone has any suggestions it would be great to hear them.
>
> Thanks,
> Aaron.


-- 
Aaron Jackson
PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham
http://aaronsplace.co.uk

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Aaron Jackson

>> My copy of of the V7 standalone stuff (which I got from the VTServer
>> directory) didn't include an RX driver. Where'd you manage to find one?

> I am using the version from here: https://github.com/sethm/vtserver/

After offline discussion with Aaron, we clarified that that site only has the
binary for the standalone tools. The copy on the TUHS archive:

 http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Tools/Tapes/Vtserver/v7_standalone.tar.gz

although it has the source, doesn't include the RX driver. Does anyone know
the whereabouts for the source for the (later) version of the standalone
stuff, which includes the RX driver? Thanks!

Noel

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Aaron Jackson via cctalk]

Noel Chiappa via cctalk writes:

> > Aaron Jackson
>
> > if I try to dump using vtserver using a floppy which passed the
> > diagnostics, it fails.
>
> My copy of of the V7 standalone stuff (which I got from the VTServer
> directory) didn't include an RX driver. Where'd you manage to find one?
> (I need one for my own use, plus I want to look at the source, to help
> with this.)
>
>   Noel

I am using the version from here: https://github.com/sethm/vtserver/

It's likely that there is still an issue with reading the data, or the
floppy is still bad but some how managed to pass the test anyway.

Thanks,
Aaron.

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> Aaron Jackson

> if I try to dump using vtserver using a floppy which passed the
> diagnostics, it fails.

My copy of of the V7 standalone stuff (which I got from the VTServer
directory) didn't include an RX driver. Where'd you manage to find one?
(I need one for my own use, plus I want to look at the source, to help
with this.)

Noel

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

> On Dec 9, 2017, at 1:25 PM, Aaron Jackson  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Jerry. That was very helpful. Found a stray piece of metal lying
> across the board next to an AND gate, which is slightly
> disconcerting. Possibly a stray wire clipping. Both drives pass the
> diagnostics.
> 
> It's strange though, if I try to dump using vtserver using a floppy
> which passed the diagnostics, it fails. So, not sure. Will have to
> investigate a bit more.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Aaron.

Glad it all worked out.   I can’t advise on the VTServer issue as 
I have not used it.  Perhaps others can advise further.

Have fun!

Jerry

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Aaron Jackson via cctalk]

> On Dec 8, 2017, at 5:17 PM, Aaron Jackson  wrote:
>>
 On Dec 8, 2017, at 12:53 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk 
  wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 3:03 PM, Aaron Jackson  
> wrote:
>>
>> Manual says it should be S1=off, S2=on for RX211 and RXV21
>
> In the photo, I think S1 is on and S2 is off. Check them with an
> ohmmeter if in doubt!
>
> -tony

 Yes - you are right. I switched them back to how they were when I got
 the drive. I think one of the switches was half down because XXDP
 actually does something now.

 Most of the tests now look something like this:

 CZRXFB0 DVC FTL ERR  00034 ON UNIT 00 TST 031 SUB 000 PC: 003476
 SECTOR ADR - LGC TST
 SECTOR ADDRESS ERROR
  EXPECTED SECTOR=18.
TARGET SECTOR=17.

 I suppose these should match?

 Starting to think I might need to confuse myself with my logic analyzer
 and the RX02 control board.

 Thanks,
 Aaron.
>>>
>>> To isolate the problem further, try to see if any of the errors follow
>>> the media  as you move them between drives.
>>>
>>> If the same errors occur on both drives, regardless of media then the
>>> RX02 system board or perhaps the Qbus controller are at fault.
>>> The field maintenance prints should allow you to trace the fault down
>>> a bit further,  with or w/o a logic analyzer.
>>>
>>> How many different types of errors do you see?
>>>
>>> Jerry
>>
>> Thanks for the info Jerry.
>>
>> I get read errors, data errors, density errors, sector addressing
>> errors. Probably every kind of error xxdp can give :)
>>
>> Please see this link if you are interested:
>>
>> https://aaronsplace.co.uk/private/o/48859c14f6a619a5316d6af37d60579c.txt
>>
>> I will take a proper look through the field manuals tomorrow, and also
>> try what you suggested with trying the same media in both drives.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Aaron.
>
>
>  When you have many errors it can be hard to separate the primary fault(s) 
> from the knock-on errors.
>  The M7745/M7744 or Media Errors dominate the entries.
>
> 1) Try to verify the media is a DEC 8 Inch formatted RX02 or RX01 if you do 
> not know the source of the
>  the disks.   The disk should have only 1 hole punched for index  on the 
> media itself.   Even if it is
>  a DEC Brand, there’s still possibility that the media has been exposed 
> to strong magnetic fields.
>
>  I have not seen much natural  bit-rot on my floppy media, but YMMV.   If 
> could find someone local
>  with RX02 drives to confirm your media, that would also help rule out 
> some things.
>
>   Many third party drives and controllers that were DEC compatible also 
> had the ability to do a
>   low level format of media, something the native RX02 did not.  So if 
> the media type is correct, but
>   the format is not, they may be salvageable (with complete loss of 
> original data).
>
> 2) Check the connections between the drives and controllers. Gently clean 
> contacts, especially anything
> gold plated.  Getting clean signals from the floppies is critical if the 
> RW electronics are to function.
>
> 3) Try and contrast to the other drive as previously covered.
>
> This will help rule out a few things and provide some better direction.
>
>
> Jerry

Thanks Jerry. That was very helpful. Found a stray piece of metal lying
across the board next to an AND gate, which is slightly
disconcerting. Possibly a stray wire clipping. Both drives pass the
diagnostics.

It's strange though, if I try to dump using vtserver using a floppy
which passed the diagnostics, it fails. So, not sure. Will have to
investigate a bit more.

Thanks again,
Aaron.

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 12/8/2017 4:34 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote:

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


On Dec 8, 2017, at 5:17 PM, Aaron Jackson  wrote:
=
3) Try and contrast to the other drive as previously covered.

This will help rule out a few things and provide some better direction.



I know that there some very low-level disk analysis tools (Kyroflux or
something?) Would it be feasible to use one of those tools to verify the
format and data integrity of the floppies?

-- Charles
This brings up a point I'm interested in.  I've got a kryoflux and the 
parts that hopefully will let me run regular 8" drive.  Does anyone have 
experience writing RX01 or RX02 images with such drives onto blank media 
(non dec pre-formatted)?


I'm really hoping to create test media to use before I risk any of the 
masters I have to any drives (I have a Minc 11 with a lot of floppies).


I hope to image all the media I have via the same 8" drives, and not 
fiddle with the Minc or RX02 I have, but to just get them going, and use 
them on systems.


thanks
Jim

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Charles Anthony via cctalk]

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Dec 8, 2017, at 5:17 PM, Aaron Jackson  wrote:
> >
> =
> 3) Try and contrast to the other drive as previously covered.
>
> This will help rule out a few things and provide some better direction.
>
>
I know that there some very low-level disk analysis tools (Kyroflux or
something?) Would it be feasible to use one of those tools to verify the
format and data integrity of the floppies?

-- Charles

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

On Dec 8, 2017, at 5:17 PM, Aaron Jackson  wrote:
> 
>>> On Dec 8, 2017, at 12:53 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
 On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 3:03 PM, Aaron Jackson  
 wrote:
> 
> Manual says it should be S1=off, S2=on for RX211 and RXV21
 
 In the photo, I think S1 is on and S2 is off. Check them with an
 ohmmeter if in doubt!
 
 -tony
>>> 
>>> Yes - you are right. I switched them back to how they were when I got
>>> the drive. I think one of the switches was half down because XXDP
>>> actually does something now.
>>> 
>>> Most of the tests now look something like this:
>>> 
>>> CZRXFB0 DVC FTL ERR  00034 ON UNIT 00 TST 031 SUB 000 PC: 003476
>>> SECTOR ADR - LGC TST
>>> SECTOR ADDRESS ERROR
>>>  EXPECTED SECTOR=18.
>>>TARGET SECTOR=17.
>>> 
>>> I suppose these should match?
>>> 
>>> Starting to think I might need to confuse myself with my logic analyzer
>>> and the RX02 control board.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Aaron.
>> 
>> To isolate the problem further, try to see if any of the errors follow
>> the media  as you move them between drives.  
>> 
>> If the same errors occur on both drives, regardless of media then the
>> RX02 system board or perhaps the Qbus controller are at fault.  
>> The field maintenance prints should allow you to trace the fault down
>> a bit further,  with or w/o a logic analyzer.
>> 
>> How many different types of errors do you see?
>> 
>> Jerry
> 
> Thanks for the info Jerry.
> 
> I get read errors, data errors, density errors, sector addressing
> errors. Probably every kind of error xxdp can give :)
> 
> Please see this link if you are interested:
> 
> https://aaronsplace.co.uk/private/o/48859c14f6a619a5316d6af37d60579c.txt
> 
> I will take a proper look through the field manuals tomorrow, and also
> try what you suggested with trying the same media in both drives.
> 
> Thanks,
> Aaron.


 When you have many errors it can be hard to separate the primary fault(s) from 
the knock-on errors.
 The M7745/M7744 or Media Errors dominate the entries.
 
1) Try to verify the media is a DEC 8 Inch formatted RX02 or RX01 if you do not 
know the source of the 
 the disks.   The disk should have only 1 hole punched for index  on the 
media itself.   Even if it is
 a DEC Brand, there’s still possibility that the media has been exposed to 
strong magnetic fields.

 I have not seen much natural  bit-rot on my floppy media, but YMMV.   If 
could find someone local 
 with RX02 drives to confirm your media, that would also help rule out some 
things.   

  Many third party drives and controllers that were DEC compatible also had 
the ability to do a 
  low level format of media, something the native RX02 did not.  So if the 
media type is correct, but
  the format is not, they may be salvageable (with complete loss of 
original data).

2) Check the connections between the drives and controllers. Gently clean 
contacts, especially anything
gold plated.  Getting clean signals from the floppies is critical if the RW 
electronics are to function.

3) Try and contrast to the other drive as previously covered.  

This will help rule out a few things and provide some better direction.


Jerry 

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Aaron Jackson via cctalk]

>> On Dec 8, 2017, at 12:53 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 3:03 PM, Aaron Jackson  
>>> wrote:
 
 Manual says it should be S1=off, S2=on for RX211 and RXV21
>>> 
>>> In the photo, I think S1 is on and S2 is off. Check them with an
>>> ohmmeter if in doubt!
>>> 
>>> -tony
>> 
>> Yes - you are right. I switched them back to how they were when I got
>> the drive. I think one of the switches was half down because XXDP
>> actually does something now.
>> 
>> Most of the tests now look something like this:
>> 
>> CZRXFB0 DVC FTL ERR  00034 ON UNIT 00 TST 031 SUB 000 PC: 003476
>> SECTOR ADR - LGC TST
>>  SECTOR ADDRESS ERROR
>>   EXPECTED SECTOR=18.
>> TARGET SECTOR=17.
>> 
>> I suppose these should match?
>> 
>> Starting to think I might need to confuse myself with my logic analyzer
>> and the RX02 control board.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Aaron.
>
> To isolate the problem further, try to see if any of the errors follow
> the media  as you move them between drives.  
>
> If the same errors occur on both drives, regardless of media then the
> RX02 system board or perhaps the Qbus controller are at fault.  
> The field maintenance prints should allow you to trace the fault down
> a bit further,  with or w/o a logic analyzer.
>
> How many different types of errors do you see?
>
> Jerry

Thanks for the info Jerry.

I get read errors, data errors, density errors, sector addressing
errors. Probably every kind of error xxdp can give :)

Please see this link if you are interested:

https://aaronsplace.co.uk/private/o/48859c14f6a619a5316d6af37d60579c.txt

I will take a proper look through the field manuals tomorrow, and also
try what you suggested with trying the same media in both drives.

Thanks,
Aaron.

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

> On Dec 8, 2017, at 12:53 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 3:03 PM, Aaron Jackson  
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Manual says it should be S1=off, S2=on for RX211 and RXV21
>> 
>> In the photo, I think S1 is on and S2 is off. Check them with an
>> ohmmeter if in doubt!
>> 
>> -tony
> 
> Yes - you are right. I switched them back to how they were when I got
> the drive. I think one of the switches was half down because XXDP
> actually does something now.
> 
> Most of the tests now look something like this:
> 
> CZRXFB0 DVC FTL ERR  00034 ON UNIT 00 TST 031 SUB 000 PC: 003476
> SECTOR ADR - LGC TST
>  SECTOR ADDRESS ERROR
>   EXPECTED SECTOR=18.
> TARGET SECTOR=17.
> 
> I suppose these should match?
> 
> Starting to think I might need to confuse myself with my logic analyzer
> and the RX02 control board.
> 
> Thanks,
> Aaron.

To isolate the problem further, try to see if any of the errors follow
the media  as you move them between drives.  

If the same errors occur on both drives, regardless of media then the
RX02 system board or perhaps the Qbus controller are at fault.  
The field maintenance prints should allow you to trace the fault down
a bit further,  with or w/o a logic analyzer.

How many different types of errors do you see?

Jerry

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[js--- via cctalk]

On 12/8/2017 2:13 PM, Aaron Jackson via 
cctalk wrote:

I wonder if there's a problem with the floppy you are using?

Remember, the RX0x drives can't hard reformat the floppies (as in, write the
sector headers), so if the floopy has a problem, you can't fix it with the
RX02.

Noel

Possibly, but I ran the same test on about 4 floppies and failed in the
same way. I bought a box of 13 floppy disks a while ago off eBay, so
unless the box was kept on top of a magnet or something, I'd expect at
least one of them to work.


On the contrary, I wouldn't expect ANY of your floppy disks to work.

Having been through getting an RX01 rejuvenated and working again, I had to 
fresh format some diskettes.

- J.

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Aaron Jackson via cctalk]

> > From: Aaron Jackson
>
> > Most of the tests now look something like this:
> > ...
> >  SECTOR ADDRESS ERROR
> >   EXPECTED SECTOR=18.
> > TARGET SECTOR=17.
>
> I wonder if there's a problem with the floppy you are using?
>
> Remember, the RX0x drives can't hard reformat the floppies (as in, write the
> sector headers), so if the floopy has a problem, you can't fix it with the
> RX02.
>
>   Noel

Possibly, but I ran the same test on about 4 floppies and failed in the
same way. I bought a box of 13 floppy disks a while ago off eBay, so
unless the box was kept on top of a magnet or something, I'd expect at
least one of them to work.

Some of them have quite interesting names:

  Rutherford Appleton Laboratory Software

and

  Code from Neutron Divider

So I am quite interested to see what's on them.

Thanks,
Aaron.

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Aaron Jackson

> Most of the tests now look something like this:
> ...
>  SECTOR ADDRESS ERROR
>   EXPECTED SECTOR=18.
> TARGET SECTOR=17.

I wonder if there's a problem with the floppy you are using?

Remember, the RX0x drives can't hard reformat the floppies (as in, write the
sector headers), so if the floopy has a problem, you can't fix it with the
RX02.

Noel

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Aaron Jackson via cctalk]

> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 3:03 PM, Aaron Jackson  wrote:
>>
>> Manual says it should be S1=off, S2=on for RX211 and RXV21
>
> In the photo, I think S1 is on and S2 is off. Check them with an
> ohmmeter if in doubt!
>
> -tony

Yes - you are right. I switched them back to how they were when I got
the drive. I think one of the switches was half down because XXDP
actually does something now.

Most of the tests now look something like this:

CZRXFB0 DVC FTL ERR  00034 ON UNIT 00 TST 031 SUB 000 PC: 003476
 SECTOR ADR - LGC TST
  SECTOR ADDRESS ERROR
   EXPECTED SECTOR=18.
 TARGET SECTOR=17.

I suppose these should match?

Starting to think I might need to confuse myself with my logic analyzer
and the RX02 control board.

Thanks,
Aaron.

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[allison via cctalk]

On 12/08/2017 09:45 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I originally posted this on VCFed (which was new to me) but the
> moderation queue has had me waiting for about 3 days, so I thought I'd
> ask here as well, the usual of gurus. :)
>
> I was recently sent an RXV21 controller so I could test out my RX02
> drive. When I power up the PDP-11 or reset the machine I get the nice
> clunking sound which I have been told is normal. I expect I wouldn't
> hear this if the ribbon cable was in the wrong way.
>
> To test, I tried to use VTserver to dump the contents of a disk, but it
> immediately threw an error. I soon realised there are two DIP switches
> on the logic board of the RX02 drive which had to be adjusted to work
> with the RXV21. So, I had some progress. Output of VTserver almost
> looked promising but then it hangs, as below:
>
> ]] Tape record n from device xx is written as xx(0,0,n)
> ]] Disk drive xx is written as xx(0,0,0)
> ]]
> ]] Enter name of input record/device: rx(0,0,0)
> ]] Enter name of output record/device: vt(0,0,1)
> ]]
> ]] Opened copy.out read-write
> ]]
>
> So, following some advice I booted via TU58em into XXDP and ran the
> diagnostics:
>
> ]] DR>STA
> ]]
> ]] CHANGE HW (L)  ? N
> ]]
> ]] CHANGE SW (L)  ? N
> ]]
> ]] CZRXFB0 SYS FTL ERR  00040 ON UNIT 00 TST 011 SUB 000 PC: 003476
> ]]  CSR BITS - LGC TST
> ]]   AC LOW FATAL ERROR
> ]]   REG ACTUAL=00
> ]]   REG EXPECT=00
> ]]
> ]]   POSSIBLE FAILING "FRU'S":
> ]] INTERFACE - M8029
> ]]
> ]]   UNIT#0 RXCSR=00 RXESR=00 CMD=00 ->
> ]]  ->NO PWR, CABLED BACKWARDS, STRAPPED RX01, PDP-8
> ]]  DROP UNIT#0 FROM TEST
> ]]
> ]] PASS ABRTD THS UNIT
> ]] CZRXFB0 SYS FTL ERR  00040 ON UNIT 01 TST 011 SUB 000 PC: 003476
> ]]  CSR BITS - LGC TST
> ]]   AC LOW FATAL ERROR
> ]]   REG ACTUAL=00
> ]]   REG EXPECT=00
> ]]
> ]]   POSSIBLE FAILING "FRU'S":
> ]] INTERFACE - M8029
> ]]
> ]]   UNIT#1 RXCSR=00 RXESR=00 CMD=00 ->
> ]]  ->NO PWR, CABLED BACKWARDS, STRAPPED RX01, PDP-8
> ]]  DROP UNIT#1 FROM TEST
> ]]
> ]] PASS ABRTD THS UNIT
> ]] CZRXFB0 EOP1
> ]] 2 TOTAL ERRS
>
> So, the possible errors according to XXDP:
>
> - Bad power - I get 25v, 5v and -5v. The motors are spinning, not
>   convinced it is this?
>
> - Cable backwards - I don't think I'd be hearing that clunk.
>
> - Strapped RX01 - I don't know what this means
>
> - PDP8 - eh?
>
> If anyone has any suggestions it would be great to hear them.
>
> Thanks,
> Aaron.

Why not do the obvious and flip the able at one end?  Its not like it
can hurt something.

FYI the two switches are for set for PDP-8 (12 bit) operation and the
other sets is for RX01
or RX02 mode.  RX01 mode locks the logic for RX01 operation only and the
RX02 mode
allows it to do both RX01 and RX02 media.

]]  ->NO PWR, CABLED BACKWARDS, STRAPPED RX01, PDP-8

That means check for:
 No power, drive has now power.
 Cable reversed
 set for RX01 or Set for PDP-8

Its a list of things that can be wrong to make it not work.

Allison

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 3:03 PM, Aaron Jackson  wrote:
>
> Manual says it should be S1=off, S2=on for RX211 and RXV21

In the photo, I think S1 is on and S2 is off. Check them with an
ohmmeter if in doubt!

-tony

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Aaron Jackson via cctalk]

> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk
>  wrote:
>
>> - Strapped RX01 - I don't know what this means
>>
>> - PDP8 - eh?
>
> No idea as to the fault (heck, it's not in front of me with a logic analyser
> to hand), but I think I can explain that.
>
> There is a pair of DIP switches on the controller board (the upper board
> in the RX02 itself, the one that hinges up). Three of the 4 settings are
> used : RX02 (which is the one you want, it is an RX02 drive to link
> to an RX211 or RXV21 interface), RX01 (turns the drive into a single-
> density-only RX01-a-like to link to an RX11 or RXV11) and 'PDP8' which
> is used to link to an RX8e for Omnibus PDP8 machines. The switch
> settings are in one of the manuals, you should check them.
>
> -tony

I think I have this set correctly, can be seen in this photo, unless I
misunderstand the colouring. Originally it was the other way around and
VTserver would throw an error instead of hang. I can try it again, with
the originally settings, under xxdp and see what happens.

http://aaronsplace.co.uk/private/pics/rx02insides/logic.jpg

Manual says it should be S1=off, S2=on for RX211 and RXV21

Re: RX02 Difficulties

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk
 wrote:

> - Strapped RX01 - I don't know what this means
>
> - PDP8 - eh?

No idea as to the fault (heck, it's not in front of me with a logic analyser
to hand), but I think I can explain that.

There is a pair of DIP switches on the controller board (the upper board
in the RX02 itself, the one that hinges up). Three of the 4 settings are
used : RX02 (which is the one you want, it is an RX02 drive to link
to an RX211 or RXV21 interface), RX01 (turns the drive into a single-
density-only RX01-a-like to link to an RX11 or RXV11) and 'PDP8' which
is used to link to an RX8e for Omnibus PDP8 machines. The switch
settings are in one of the manuals, you should check them.

-tony