Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Mattis Lind via cctalk]

Den lör 10 okt. 2020 kl 13:23 skrev Stefan Skoglund via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org>:

> ons 2020-10-07 klockan 14:08 -0400 skrev Paul Koning via cctalk:
> >
> > Not flags, that's an HDLC concept.  Bisync uses sync characters (as
> > DDCMP does) but instead of doing framing by byte counts it does it by
> > a frame terminator, and for transparency if that occurs inside the
> > data it has to be escaped.
>
> Bit stuffing ? ie if the payload contains a sequence which is reserved
> add a an escape for example an A after three consecutive spaces.
>

 Bitstuffing is used in HDLC and SDLC and is where you insert a 0 after
five consecutive ones. That is to differentiate it from the flag which has
a zero followed by six ones and then yet another zero.

>
> ON the receiving end remove the A, if it came after three spaces.
>
> Four consecutive spaces in the wire stream, that is a frame marker...
>

BSC has the concept of escape character. They use the DLE which is 0x10 in
EBCDIC.

BSC can operate in transparent and non-transparent mode. Transparent mode
text is initiated with DLE STX while  non-transparent text is just STX.

>
> >
> > Bisync is usually associated with older IBM protocols like 2780, but
> > it's occasionally found elsewhere.


BSC was widely used to connect various IBM terminals like 2260 and 3270.
BSC has a polling concept with the ENQ character which is used to poll
terminals on a shared line for data to send.



> One of my nightmare memories is
> > debugging the communication between a PDP-11/70 running Typeset-11
> > (on IAS) and a Harris 2200 display advertising graphics editing
> > workstation.  That runs Bisync, half duplex, multipoint, with modem
> > control, on an async comm link -- DL11-E devices at the PDP-11
> > end.  Yikes.  At our customer site in downtown Philadelphia, it
> > tended to lock up, but only during the "lobster shift" -- midnight to
> > 8 am.
> >
> > I don't really know anything about that particular protocol beyond
> > what I just mentioned, but I'm fairly sure it didn't have anything to
> > do with IBM products.
> >
> >   paul
> >
> >
>

/Mattis

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Stefan Skoglund via cctalk]

ons 2020-10-07 klockan 14:08 -0400 skrev Paul Koning via cctalk:
> 
> Not flags, that's an HDLC concept.  Bisync uses sync characters (as
> DDCMP does) but instead of doing framing by byte counts it does it by
> a frame terminator, and for transparency if that occurs inside the
> data it has to be escaped.

Bit stuffing ? ie if the payload contains a sequence which is reserved
add a an escape for example an A after three consecutive spaces.

ON the receiving end remove the A, if it came after three spaces.

Four consecutive spaces in the wire stream, that is a frame marker...

> 
> Bisync is usually associated with older IBM protocols like 2780, but
> it's occasionally found elsewhere.  One of my nightmare memories is
> debugging the communication between a PDP-11/70 running Typeset-11
> (on IAS) and a Harris 2200 display advertising graphics editing
> workstation.  That runs Bisync, half duplex, multipoint, with modem
> control, on an async comm link -- DL11-E devices at the PDP-11
> end.  Yikes.  At our customer site in downtown Philadelphia, it
> tended to lock up, but only during the "lobster shift" -- midnight to
> 8 am.
> 
> I don't really know anything about that particular protocol beyond
> what I just mentioned, but I'm fairly sure it didn't have anything to
> do with IBM products.
> 
>   paul
> 
> 

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 10/7/20 2:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 4:49 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
 wrote:

On 10/7/20 1:39 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:


Synchronous serial lines are not typically a feature in the sort of
machines people are likely to be running something like Simh on,
especially laptops.  I'm sure there were Sync serial cards for ISA but
probably not anything more recent.


you could get PCI V.35 cards
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barr-Systems-291456-Sync-Max-PCI-Rev-1-Card/264317672165


I was not aware of this unit.  Thanks for the pointer.


http://www.synclink.com/

for USB..

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk]

On Wed, 7 Oct 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

> > Synchronous serial lines are not typically a feature in the sort of
> > machines people are likely to be running something like Simh on,
> > especially laptops.  I'm sure there were Sync serial cards for ISA but
> > probably not anything more recent.
> > 
> 
> you could get PCI V.35 cards
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barr-Systems-291456-Sync-Max-PCI-Rev-1-Card/264317672165

 Umm, PCI has become almost as legacy as ISA, but here's the first link: 
.
 
that came up with "PCIe HDLC" popped into a web search engine.

 If you were so inclined, you could probably wire it to a contemporary x86 
laptop via one of those Thunderbolt-to-PCIe thingies (for the record: I've 
had one of my older x86 laptops put on FDDI via a similar arrangement with 
a PCIe-PCI bridge wired via the docking station, and could do the same 
right away with my most recent one and its ExpressCard interface).

 FWIW,

  Maciej

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Bob Smith via cctalk]

Hey Dave,
I think the two guys working the tools originally were Bob Rosenbaum
and Harvey Schlesinger.
You are pretty much correct on the diffs between KMC and DMC. KMC had
180NS instruction time, and larger ram than the DMC iirc on that
point.
I worked on both with Remi Lissee.
I designed the DMC line units, and the line united we used in the
Autodin II system - CSS took over the cards.
DOn't forget about the Triax with special modem built i for DMC11.
Those were done for JPL and some others...
The COMM IOP for Autodin II handled a separate set of cards, sync or
async - supporting SDLC/BiSYNC,and Isoc.
After the design of the Autodin chips were done - 2652/5025 - the spec
was changed to add a couple of new CRC requirements,
mathematically insignificant but algorithms designed by Georgia Tech
and Cartwr  was in office So, Zereski and I did a drop in chip
that would add that algorithm set in addition to the nrom VRC/LRC/CRC
one we had already done i nthe chips - 2652 was mine, 5025 was Frank
Z's.
bob smith
badge 


On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 3:11 PM Dave Mitton via cctech
 wrote:
>
>
> >Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:29:43 -0700
> >From: Glen Slick 
> >Subject: Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11
> >
> >On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 11:04 AM Paul Koning  wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Oct 7, 2020, at 12:06 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk
> >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ...
> > > > I was curious about this DEC M8704 DMS11-DA that sold cheap a few days
> > > > ago. It has eight SMC COM5025 "Multi-Protocol Universal Synchronous
> > > > Receiver/Transmitter USYNR/T" chips:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/373243388363
> > > >
> > > > Apparently it can't do anything on its own. It needs to be connected
> > > > to a UNIBUS through a companion KMC11 processor board, which might not
> > > > be too common if someone wanted to put together a working
> > > > configuration.
> > >
> > > That model number isn't familiar.
> > >
> > > A KMC-11 is simply a microprocessor that sits on the Unibus and
> > does Unibus cycles to another device on behalf of the host.  The
> > idea is to offload operations so the host can ask for block
> > transfers and the KMC does the individual character I/O operations needed.
> > >
> > > That said, it clearly is not correct that "it can't do anything
> > on its own".  The KMC-11 reaches into the device via its Unibus
> > CSRs.  If you can find a description of its operation, or reverse
> > engineer it, you can clearly write a device driver for it that
> > doesn't rely on a KMC-11.
> > >
> > > paul
> >
> >Well it does appear that M8704 DMS11-DA "can't do anything on its own"
> >directly through the UNIBUS. From a quick visual inspection it only
> >has power and grant continuity traces on the card edge connectors. The
> >connection to the controlling KMC-11 is through the 40-pin Berg
> >connector. So without a KMC-11 an alternate interface through the
> >40-pin Berg connector would be needed.
>
> My first job at DEC was to release the KMC-11 Programmer's Tools
> support for RSX-11.
> (I didn't write them from scratch, two other engineers did that, but
> I did do final debug and QA)
>
> We provided two firmware kit products; the CommIOP-DUP and DZ, which
> controlled the DUP-11 and DZ-11 respectively.
>
> The KMC-11 could do NPR bus transfers to/from the devices, and the
> CommIOP-DUP firmware could do Bisync or X.25 type framing so that you
> got an RSX-11 driver with a packet interface, vs byte at a
> time.   The CommIO-DZ firmware provided various customizable state
> driven things as you might want for a line driven terminal
> concentrator.  I'm pretty sure the packages came with the "source"
> code, so you could customize it if you could understand it.
>
> The DMC-11 did DDMCP support and was basically a KMC with ROM in the
> control store.  And it did use that external connector to the
> proprietary network interface card, DMC-11DA.
>
> In later years, I wrote and released a KMC Tools package for
> VMS-11.  That came with a VMS DMA LP-11 line printer driver I authored.
> I don't remember if the CommIOP tools were supported.  Some VMS
> engineers didn't like these products. (another story)
> (That didn't stop the Lab products guys in Marlboro from using them
> for their applications)
>
> There was a later version called the KMC-11B which doubled the memory
> and probably ran faster too.  It was the same board as the DMP-11
> product which was an improved version of the DMC-11.
>
> These were quad Unibus boards.  In the Q bus world, there was a 6502
> based I/O processor card developed (outside of Networks) (as one-chip
> micros became available) as well.
>
> I have a KMC-11 Programmer's Manual here... I think you'll need a
> print set to figure out that connector.
>
> Dave.
>

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 3:39 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk
 wrote:
> > From: Ethan Dicks
>
> > a DEC sync serial board since that part is nowhere to be found right
> > now.
>
> I dunno, I see them fairly often on eBait (well, often compared to some other
> things, e.g. TU56 parts... :-)

"Part" in this case is "part of the whole", not "computer part"...

The part that is missing in that paragraph is code for Simh that
emulates a DEC sync serial board.

Real DEC sync serial boards aren't that hard to find because almost
nobody has a use for them.

> QBUS or UNIBUS? And there are lots of different ones, which I confess I don't
> fully understand the difference between (e.g. DP11, DQ11, DU11, DUP11, DV11) -
> some of it's single-line/multi-line, and DMA/programmed I/O, but from what few
> details I looked at - while doing:

Yes.  There are many varieties, both Unibus and Qbus.  They have
different serial chips and different host-bus register sets, which is
why I said first one needs to identify which application is to be
used, _then_ choose which board to emulate (or purchase for real
hardware).

> there are also differences in exactly which protocools are supported,
> etc, etc, etc, etc.

Yes.  It all matters.

This stuff used to be hard.  People used to give us $25,000 to solve
the problem.

-ethan

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Peter Allan via cctalk]

Thanks to everyone who has sent suggestions about remote job submission
from a simulated PDP-11 to a simulated IBM/370.

Although I do want to get this working on a simulated PDP-11 running
RSX-11M, the mention of the Unix 'send' command grabbed my attention, since
that rings a vague bell in my memory that there might have been a 'send'
command on the RSX-11M machine that I used in the previous millennium. This
was at a university, so I can imagine someone taking the Unix code and
porting it to RSX-11M.

Of course, this was a long time ago and I might have a faulty memory.

It would still be great to get the proper RSX-11M tools if they exist
somewhere. I am prepared to have a go at writing the appropriate
synchronous interface for simh if those tools do exist. I know that there
is a DUP-11 device already, but the code explicitly says that it does not
implement bisync.

Cheers to all

Peter Allan


On Wed, 7 Oct 2020 at 10:07, Peter Allan  wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to
> be run on RSX-11M.
>
> RJE/HASP
>
> 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator
>
> My aim is to be able to submit a remote job from a simulated PDP-11 on
> simh to a simulated IBM/370 on Hercules. The products that I mentioned seem
> the obvious way to do this, but anything that works would be helpful.
>
> Cheers
>
> Peter Allan
>

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Dave Mitton via cctalk]

Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:29:43 -0700
From: Glen Slick 
Subject: Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 11:04 AM Paul Koning  wrote:
>
> > On Oct 7, 2020, at 12:06 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk 
 wrote:

> >
> > ...
> > I was curious about this DEC M8704 DMS11-DA that sold cheap a few days
> > ago. It has eight SMC COM5025 "Multi-Protocol Universal Synchronous
> > Receiver/Transmitter USYNR/T" chips:
> >
> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/373243388363
> >
> > Apparently it can't do anything on its own. It needs to be connected
> > to a UNIBUS through a companion KMC11 processor board, which might not
> > be too common if someone wanted to put together a working
> > configuration.
>
> That model number isn't familiar.
>
> A KMC-11 is simply a microprocessor that sits on the Unibus and 
does Unibus cycles to another device on behalf of the host.  The 
idea is to offload operations so the host can ask for block 
transfers and the KMC does the individual character I/O operations needed.

>
> That said, it clearly is not correct that "it can't do anything 
on its own".  The KMC-11 reaches into the device via its Unibus 
CSRs.  If you can find a description of its operation, or reverse 
engineer it, you can clearly write a device driver for it that 
doesn't rely on a KMC-11.

>
> paul

Well it does appear that M8704 DMS11-DA "can't do anything on its own"
directly through the UNIBUS. From a quick visual inspection it only
has power and grant continuity traces on the card edge connectors. The
connection to the controlling KMC-11 is through the 40-pin Berg
connector. So without a KMC-11 an alternate interface through the
40-pin Berg connector would be needed.


My first job at DEC was to release the KMC-11 Programmer's Tools 
support for RSX-11.
(I didn't write them from scratch, two other engineers did that, but 
I did do final debug and QA)


We provided two firmware kit products; the CommIOP-DUP and DZ, which 
controlled the DUP-11 and DZ-11 respectively.


The KMC-11 could do NPR bus transfers to/from the devices, and the 
CommIOP-DUP firmware could do Bisync or X.25 type framing so that you 
got an RSX-11 driver with a packet interface, vs byte at a 
time.   The CommIO-DZ firmware provided various customizable state 
driven things as you might want for a line driven terminal 
concentrator.  I'm pretty sure the packages came with the "source" 
code, so you could customize it if you could understand it.


The DMC-11 did DDMCP support and was basically a KMC with ROM in the 
control store.  And it did use that external connector to the 
proprietary network interface card, DMC-11DA.


In later years, I wrote and released a KMC Tools package for 
VMS-11.  That came with a VMS DMA LP-11 line printer driver I authored.
I don't remember if the CommIOP tools were supported.  Some VMS 
engineers didn't like these products. (another story)
(That didn't stop the Lab products guys in Marlboro from using them 
for their applications)


There was a later version called the KMC-11B which doubled the memory 
and probably ran faster too.  It was the same board as the DMP-11 
product which was an improved version of the DMC-11.


These were quad Unibus boards.  In the Q bus world, there was a 6502 
based I/O processor card developed (outside of Networks) (as one-chip 
micros became available) as well.


I have a KMC-11 Programmer's Manual here... I think you'll need a 
print set to figure out that connector.


Dave. 

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Ethan Dicks

> a DEC sync serial board since that part is nowhere to be found right
> now.

I dunno, I see them fairly often on eBait (well, often compared to some other
things, e.g. TU56 parts... :-)

QBUS or UNIBUS? And there are lots of different ones, which I confess I don't
fully understand the difference between (e.g. DP11, DQ11, DU11, DUP11, DV11) -
some of it's single-line/multi-line, and DMA/programmed I/O, but from what few
details I looked at - while doing:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/DP11-A_synchronous_serial_line_interface
  http://gunkies.org/wiki/DUP11_synchronous_serial_line_interface

there are also differences in exactly which protocools are supported,
etc, etc, etc, etc.

Noel

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Mattis Lind via cctalk]

Den ons 7 okt. 2020 kl 22:19 skrev Peter Coghlan via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org>:

>
>
> However, I know of at least two projects which implement bisync line to
> TCP/IP gateways to interface to IBM terminals using additional hardware.
> Perhaps it might be possible to adapt one or both to do RJE?  Here is one
> of them:
>
> http://www.9track.net/hercules/dlsw/
>
> I can't quite put a hand on a url for the other one right now but the
> author posts here regularly so hopefully he will chime in.
>
>
>
Actually Matt Burke's project is about SNA/SDLC, not BSC. He is using the
3705 emulation in Hercules, not the 2703 emulation that is in commadpt.c

I have been working a bit with Hercules and BSC. There are a number of
things that are a bit peculiar with the Hercules implementation since it
simply pushes the bytes it receives from the channel program onto the TCP
socket. All the bytes added by the 2703 itself is omitted. This means:

1. No CRC bytes are sent
2. No leading SYN SYN are sent. SYN can be seen in the stream if added by
the channel program as a time fill.
3. No Trailing PAD is sent.

The read turn-around takes place immediately as soon as the bytes are
pushed into the socket. So if the actual sending of the bytes takes longer
time the 2703 emulation will not notice this. Something that can be
problematic with real world serial lines.

There is a tiny bug in Hercules 3.13 that has to be fixed to get it working
properly. https://github.com/rbowler/spinhawk/issues/94
Trying to use BSC in Hyperion-SDL 4.xx causes a core dump.
https://github.com/SDL-Hercules-390/hyperion/issues/319

I have successfully used the Hercules BSC implementation with the bug fixed
to attach a real BSC connected 3270 compatible terminal.
Here are some information:
https://github.com/MattisLind/alfaskop_emu/tree/master/Utils/BSCGateway/BSCBridge
and https://github.com/MattisLind/alfaskop_emu/

https://youtu.be/H1Sxt7xjn4Y
https://youtu.be/CFfB3yCN9OI

/Mattis

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 7:32 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk
 wrote:
> Ethan Dicks wrote:
> > There are no implementations of sync serial devices in Simh.  That
> > would have to be written in any case.  The DU11 and DUV11 are very
> > simple PIO serial lines with, IIRC, a COM5025 USART...
>
> This is (more or less, not exactly) what the orginal 2703/bisync emulation
> in Hercules does...
>
> The bisync/RJE protocol is a great fit for being generated by hardware and
> being sent over a dedicated line.  It is a poor fit for being generated
> by software and being sent over a shared TCP/IP network.

I completely agree.  It's terribly chatty and expects turnarounds
very, very quickly.  The OP didn't indicate the distance of what he
wanted to accomplish, so I've just been considering both ends are in
the same room, not in two different locations - i.e., a demo not a
real-world production-ready solution.

> There is lots
> of bandwidth wasting chatter and lots of CPU is consumed in mostly achieving
> nothing useful.

Totally.

> Applications tend to be coded with fixed, short timeout values.

Yes.

> The link I included describes how to avoid these difficulties for NJE
> by using a very different protocol which is specifically designed for sending
> NJE over TCP/IP networks.  I believe a similar approach is needed to do RJE
> successfully, especially if it is to end up working across the internet rather
> than just across a lab under ideal conditions.

Indeed.  If the goal is to have it work across the internet rather
than across the room, yes, an additional management layer is needed.

-ethan

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 6:26 PM Dennis Boone via cctalk
 wrote:
> Folks seem to be mostly going at hardware here, but the o.p. indicated
> emulation.

Indeed.  I brought up real hardware because that is the foundation of
my knowledge of RJE but I wasn't intending to propose that as a
solution.  I've been describing a way to tackle this problem with
emulation, including having to write an emulator for a DEC sync serial
board since that part is nowhere to be found right now.

>  I'll point out, since I haven't seen mention of it, that
> Kevin Jordan's Nostalgic Computing Center has many of its emulated
> systems linked via RJE - the Cybers, the Primes, and the VM/CMS machine
> at least.
>
> http://www.nostalgiccomputing.org/index.html

That's definitely cool, and I see they have the 4381 connected to the
CDC Cyber 175 via HASP.  That's definitely the link to inspect for
implementation details.

-ethan

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Peter Coghlan via cctalk]

Ethan Dicks wrote:
> 
> There are no implementations of sync serial devices in Simh.  That
> would have to be written in any case.  The DU11 and DUV11 are very
> simple PIO serial lines with, IIRC, a COM5025 USART.  It would not be
> a huge undertaking to write up a module to emulate one and attach it
> to the virtual bus and have it also just open up a TCP socket.
> 
> One could use 'netcat' or something similar to open up and talk to
> both the PDP-11 socket and the Hercules socket to make the connection.
> 

This is (more or less, not exactly) what the orginal 2703/bisync emulation
in Hercules does but it is not really sufficient for RJE, for a number of
reasons.

The bisync/RJE protocol is a great fit for being generated by hardware and
being sent over a dedicated line.  It is a poor fit for being generated
by software and being sent over a shared TCP/IP network.  There is lots
of bandwidth wasting chatter and lots of CPU is consumed in mostly achieving
nothing useful.

The bisync/RJE protocol needs a close to real-time response and is not a
good fit for a network which can produce variable delays.  Buffers in
applications tend to be organised on a just-in-time basis.  The flow control
needs to be able to tell the far end to stop sending data immediately and
dribble in shortly as network buffers get cleared or unexpectedly delayed
packets arrive.  One end also expects that once data is successfully sent
out, it is practically sure to arrive almost immediately at the far end,
not get piled into buffers and suffer random delays.  (I have tried assuming
that if sufficient TCP/IP network bandwidth is provided, the flow control
will not get triggered.  This didn't work.  In practice, if one end has data
to send, it will keep blasting it out until the far end tells it to stop and
then it expects it to stop near instantly.)  Applications tend to be coded
with fixed, short timeout values.

Interesting stuff happens if the TCP/IP socket is not connected when attempts
are made to send data.  Applications tend to assume that any errors are fatal
and they just give up.

The link I included describes how to avoid these difficulties for NJE
by using a very different protocol which is specifically designed for sending
NJE over TCP/IP networks.  I believe a similar approach is needed to do RJE
successfully, especially if it is to end up working across the internet rather
than just across a lab under ideal conditions.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:56 PM Bob Smith  wrote:
> Sig 2652 is an alternative to the 5025. 5025 is based on the DP11 MSI
> design by Frank Zereski at dec, the 26t2 is based on my design for the
> DMC/KMC line units that could run DDCM{< BiSync-ADDCP-BDLC

Good to know about both of those chips.  I happen to have several
dozen tubes of original COM5025 chips from our old COMBOARD stock.
Several lifetimes' supply.  It's not like people are building
modem-speed sync serial boards anymore.

-ethan

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

Well, the solution is simple: Build a UNibus to USB interface so SIMH 
can use the physical devices properly. That can't be too hard...


C

On 10/7/2020 6:26 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote:

Folks seem to be mostly going at hardware here, but the o.p. indicated
emulation.  I'll point out, since I haven't seen mention of it, that
Kevin Jordan's Nostalgic Computing Center has many of its emulated
systems linked via RJE - the Cybers, the Primes, and the VM/CMS machine
at least.

http://www.nostalgiccomputing.org/index.html

De

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Dennis Boone via cctalk]

Folks seem to be mostly going at hardware here, but the o.p. indicated
emulation.  I'll point out, since I haven't seen mention of it, that
Kevin Jordan's Nostalgic Computing Center has many of its emulated
systems linked via RJE - the Cybers, the Primes, and the VM/CMS machine
at least.

http://www.nostalgiccomputing.org/index.html

De

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Bob Smith via cctalk]

Sig 2652 is an alternative to the 5025. 5025 is based on the DP11 MSI
design by Frank Zereski at dec, the 26t2 is based on my design for the
DMC/KMC line units that could run DDCM{< BiSync-ADDCP-BDLC

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:04 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 4:49 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
>  wrote:
> > On 10/7/20 1:39 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
> >
> > > Synchronous serial lines are not typically a feature in the sort of
> > > machines people are likely to be running something like Simh on,
> > > especially laptops.  I'm sure there were Sync serial cards for ISA but
> > > probably not anything more recent.
> >
> > you could get PCI V.35 cards
> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barr-Systems-291456-Sync-Max-PCI-Rev-1-Card/264317672165
>
> I was not aware of this unit.  Thanks for the pointer.
>
> > probably for SNA
>
> Looks like it has a variety of targets.  That Zilog 16C32 is a real
> kitchen-sink serial chip, way more complicated than the Z8530.
>
> It is definitely way more advanced than the stuff I was working with
> from the mid-70s and early-80s.
>
> Overkill for this task, but definitely capable, depending on what the
> PCI end looks like.  The serial chip is fine.  It will do whatever.
>
> -ethan

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 4:49 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
 wrote:
> On 10/7/20 1:39 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
>
> > Synchronous serial lines are not typically a feature in the sort of
> > machines people are likely to be running something like Simh on,
> > especially laptops.  I'm sure there were Sync serial cards for ISA but
> > probably not anything more recent.
>
> you could get PCI V.35 cards
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barr-Systems-291456-Sync-Max-PCI-Rev-1-Card/264317672165

I was not aware of this unit.  Thanks for the pointer.

> probably for SNA

Looks like it has a variety of targets.  That Zilog 16C32 is a real
kitchen-sink serial chip, way more complicated than the Z8530.

It is definitely way more advanced than the stuff I was working with
from the mid-70s and early-80s.

Overkill for this task, but definitely capable, depending on what the
PCI end looks like.  The serial chip is fine.  It will do whatever.

-ethan

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 10/7/20 1:48 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

On 10/7/20 1:39 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:


Synchronous serial lines are not typically a feature in the sort of
machines people are likely to be running something like Simh on,
especially laptops.  I'm sure there were Sync serial cards for ISA but
probably not anything more recent.



you could get PCI V.35 cards
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barr-Systems-291456-Sync-Max-PCI-Rev-1-Card/264317672165

probably for SNA



http://barrcentral.com/manuals/SYNC%20MAX%20PCI%20Adapter%20Manual%20Rev2.pdf

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 10/7/20 1:39 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:


Synchronous serial lines are not typically a feature in the sort of
machines people are likely to be running something like Simh on,
especially laptops.  I'm sure there were Sync serial cards for ISA but
probably not anything more recent.



you could get PCI V.35 cards
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barr-Systems-291456-Sync-Max-PCI-Rev-1-Card/264317672165

probably for SNA

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 4:19 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk
 wrote:
> > I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to
> > be run on RSX-11M.
> >
> > RJE/HASP
> > 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator
> >
> > My aim is to be able to submit a remote job from a simulated PDP-11 on simh
> > to a simulated IBM/370 on Hercules.
>
> I suspect the products you mention above are designed to interface to a
> real synchronous serial line?

Yes.  The actual hardware was anything from a dumb PIO serial card
where the host CPU does all the protocol, to expensive, intelligent
serial cards that run an entire protocol engine and just push input
and output files across the hardware bus.

>  In my experience with Hercules, simulating
> a generalised synchronous serial line effectively in software is pretty
> fraught.  I don't know if simh attempts to do this or if it allows the
> simulated system access to real synchronous serial hardware in the host
> system.

Synchronous serial lines are not typically a feature in the sort of
machines people are likely to be running something like Simh on,
especially laptops.  I'm sure there were Sync serial cards for ISA but
probably not anything more recent.

What simh does for async muxes like the DZ11 is to open up TCP
sockets, one per serial line, then you connect to those for
interactive sessions and such.

There are no implementations of sync serial devices in Simh.  That
would have to be written in any case.  The DU11 and DUV11 are very
simple PIO serial lines with, IIRC, a COM5025 USART.  It would not be
a huge undertaking to write up a module to emulate one and attach it
to the virtual bus and have it also just open up a TCP socket.

One could use 'netcat' or something similar to open up and talk to
both the PDP-11 socket and the Hercules socket to make the connection.

> The protocol used for 2703 over TCP/IP emulation in Hercules is not really
> up to doing much more than trivial RJE transfers.  It can't really manage
> NJE either. (NJE is mostly just RJE with another layer added on.)

When I did this sort of thing in the 80s and 90s, we didn't have NJE -
we supported RJE over 3780 and HASP (same hardware, different protocol
engine loads).  I remember having to have a list of what the RJE
commands were over each type of console (in particular, I remember
there was IBM and CDC commands that differed).  I also remember using
a bit of JCL to tell the remote (IBM) end where to pipe the files and
where to send the results (line printer, disk file on our end, etc)

> Back in the 1980s, a requirement arose to be able to transport NJE across
> the internet for the BITNET network.  A protocol was devised to enable this
> to be done effectively:
>
> http://www.nic.funet.fi/pub/netinfo/CREN/brfc0002.text

I have heard of this, but I was never on BITNET back in the day.

> I have implemented this protocol in Hercules here:
>
> https://github.com/rbowler/spinhawk/
>
> Unfortunately, this protocol is specific to NJE, it does not work for RJE.

Ah well.

I _think_ the way forward is to choose a 2780/3780 package for the
PDP-11, then write a sync serial device handler for a compatible type
of board, and let TCP connect the dots, so to speak.  If the goal is
to run from a real PDP-11, that's an entirely different matter and
would probably require finding a way to add a USART to modern hardware
to pick up the bytes from the real PDP-11.  This bridge device would
then make a network connection to Hercules to complete the circuit.

-ethan

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Peter Coghlan via cctalk]

> Hi folks,
>   
> I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to
> be run on RSX-11M.
> 
> RJE/HASP
> 
> 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator
> 
> My aim is to be able to submit a remote job from a simulated PDP-11 on simh
> to a simulated IBM/370 on Hercules. The products that I mentioned seem the
> obvious way to do this, but anything that works would be helpful.
> 

I suspect the products you mention above are designed to interface to a
real synchronous serial line?  In my experience with Hercules, simulating
a generalised synchronous serial line effectively in software is pretty
fraught.  I don't know if simh attempts to do this or if it allows the
simulated system access to real synchronous serial hardware in the host
system.  If the latter, this doesn't get you any closer to a connection to
Hercules because Hercules does not have code to drive a real synchronous
serial line.

However, I know of at least two projects which implement bisync line to
TCP/IP gateways to interface to IBM terminals using additional hardware.
Perhaps it might be possible to adapt one or both to do RJE?  Here is one
of them:

http://www.9track.net/hercules/dlsw/

I can't quite put a hand on a url for the other one right now but the
author posts here regularly so hopefully he will chime in.

Or, it might be possible to use an intermediate gateway such as a MicroVAX
with a synchronous serial interface.

The protocol used for 2703 over TCP/IP emulation in Hercules is not really
up to doing much more than trivial RJE transfers.  It can't really manage
NJE either. (NJE is mostly just RJE with another layer added on.)

Back in the 1980s, a requirement arose to be able to transport NJE across
the internet for the BITNET network.  A protocol was devised to enable this
to be done effectively:

http://www.nic.funet.fi/pub/netinfo/CREN/brfc0002.text

I have implemented this protocol in Hercules here:

https://github.com/rbowler/spinhawk/

Unfortunately, this protocol is specific to NJE, it does not work for RJE.
In order to get RJE in and out of Hercules with any degree of reliability
and efficiency, it would be necessary to come up with an equally suitable
protocol or tweak the NJE protocol appropriately.

If you can come up with a way of getting NJE over TCP/IP out of your
simulated PDP-11 on simh, you can trivially connect that to my code in
Hercules in order to end up with NJE connections to either VM/370 RSCS
or MVS (both with suitable tweaks).  Not so useful if what you really
want is RJE though.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

> Cheers
> 
> Peter Allan

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 11:04 AM Paul Koning  wrote:
>
> > On Oct 7, 2020, at 12:06 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk  
> > wrote:
> >
> > ...
> > I was curious about this DEC M8704 DMS11-DA that sold cheap a few days
> > ago. It has eight SMC COM5025 "Multi-Protocol Universal Synchronous
> > Receiver/Transmitter USYNR/T" chips:
> >
> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/373243388363
> >
> > Apparently it can't do anything on its own. It needs to be connected
> > to a UNIBUS through a companion KMC11 processor board, which might not
> > be too common if someone wanted to put together a working
> > configuration.
>
> That model number isn't familiar.
>
> A KMC-11 is simply a microprocessor that sits on the Unibus and does Unibus 
> cycles to another device on behalf of the host.  The idea is to offload 
> operations so the host can ask for block transfers and the KMC does the 
> individual character I/O operations needed.
>
> That said, it clearly is not correct that "it can't do anything on its own".  
> The KMC-11 reaches into the device via its Unibus CSRs.  If you can find a 
> description of its operation, or reverse engineer it, you can clearly write a 
> device driver for it that doesn't rely on a KMC-11.
>
> paul

Well it does appear that M8704 DMS11-DA "can't do anything on its own"
directly through the UNIBUS. From a quick visual inspection it only
has power and grant continuity traces on the card edge connectors. The
connection to the controlling KMC-11 is through the 40-pin Berg
connector. So without a KMC-11 an alternate interface through the
40-pin Berg connector would be needed.

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Oct 7, 2020, at 11:00 AM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
>> At least in the 2780 emulation case, where BISYNC protocol handling is in 
>> software and the serial ports just are raw byte pipes.
> 
> Yes, Bisync is just a stream of raw bytes, but ISTR the COM5025 (the
> common 1970s USART for this purpose) might throw in flag bytes or
> something minor that the application doesn't know about or see, but
> the other end sees in the received byte stream. 

Not flags, that's an HDLC concept.  Bisync uses sync characters (as DDCMP does) 
but instead of doing framing by byte counts it does it by a frame terminator, 
and for transparency if that occurs inside the data it has to be escaped.

Bisync is usually associated with older IBM protocols like 2780, but it's 
occasionally found elsewhere.  One of my nightmare memories is debugging the 
communication between a PDP-11/70 running Typeset-11 (on IAS) and a Harris 2200 
display advertising graphics editing workstation.  That runs Bisync, half 
duplex, multipoint, with modem control, on an async comm link -- DL11-E devices 
at the PDP-11 end.  Yikes.  At our customer site in downtown Philadelphia, it 
tended to lock up, but only during the "lobster shift" -- midnight to 8 am.

I don't really know anything about that particular protocol beyond what I just 
mentioned, but I'm fairly sure it didn't have anything to do with IBM products.

paul

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Oct 7, 2020, at 12:06 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> ...
> I was curious about this DEC M8704 DMS11-DA that sold cheap a few days
> ago. It has eight SMC COM5025 "Multi-Protocol Universal Synchronous
> Receiver/Transmitter USYNR/T" chips:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/373243388363
> 
> Apparently it can't do anything on its own. It needs to be connected
> to a UNIBUS through a companion KMC11 processor board, which might not
> be too common if someone wanted to put together a working
> configuration.

That model number isn't familiar.

A KMC-11 is simply a microprocessor that sits on the Unibus and does Unibus 
cycles to another device on behalf of the host.  The idea is to offload 
operations so the host can ask for block transfers and the KMC does the 
individual character I/O operations needed.

That said, it clearly is not correct that "it can't do anything on its own".  
The KMC-11 reaches into the device via its Unibus CSRs.  If you can find a 
description of its operation, or reverse engineer it, you can clearly write a 
device driver for it that doesn't rely on a KMC-11.

paul

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

Interesting. I think these came from that E-COM US Postal Service thing 
in the late 1980's where the USPS built a pilot system to allow you to 
go into a post office, give them a letter, then they would scan the 
letter, route it through a network of pdp11's to the destination PO 
where it was then printed out and delivered. Yes, I think this was when 
a Fax machine was a very very big thing.


Interesting part is they used these boards for interconnections. The 
actual node was a pdp11/23 CPU with 256kb of memory, one or more of 
these things (which if I recall could handle 8 serial lines each), a 
multifunction board with clock, parallel interface (for printer), serial 
ports, and of course a pair of RM02 disk drives.


Before you consider that to be an impossible system, each system had a 
special Plessy bus in a BA11 type chassis that had a voltage regulator 
to make the +12, a Q bus/Unibus backplane that had a Plessy Quineverter 
to talk to the Unibus stuff. Even the RM02 so the Quniverter did have 
DMA capability but I don't recall if it has a unibus map (I have one or 
two of those here somewhere as well. I have a lot of stuff)


This is how Doug and I met at Alan Frisbee's place in Greenbelt to split 
a horde of RM02 disk drives and other stuff. Man this is going back 
years, but I think I still have a lot of the documentation for this 
project somewhere in the paper piles, it was a weird concept.




On 10/7/2020 12:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

On 10/7/20 8:29 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
That sounds like it, and I might have been the one to upload the 
drivers. Let me find one in the shed and take a picture.




https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1988/0185/report.pdf

https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1991/0262/report.pdf

from Larry Baker


they were popular X.25 cards that had BSD support
I think that's what we used at Apple to get on NSFnet

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 1:50 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
 wrote:
> On 10/7/20 10:32 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
>
> > Using a KMC11 is similar
>
> Other than the KMC being a Unibus bandwidth hog.

Similar in principle, not in implementation.

COMBOARDs were quite well behaved.  The DMA engine was PIO on the M68K
side so max bandwidth, even from a tight Bcc loop, was ~200KB/sec

-ethan

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

For those that might want to look at the roots, there are a few
references at the bottom of this page to IBM Bisync docs.

http://www.3780-emulation.com/3780-emulation-bisync-protocol.htm

The other publication which really contains the meat of Bisync is the
manual for the Data 100 2780/3780 workstation

I thought I ran across a PDF of the manual one time, but couldn't find
it looking just now.  Here's what I could fine on Data 100.

http://www.cbi.umn.edu/resources/mncomphist-d.html

If we can scare up the docs, they go into adequate detail to make (or
debug) an RJE workstation

-ethan

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Will Cooke via cctalk]

On 10/07/2020 11:11 AM Chris Zach via cctalk  wrote:
has a Z80A SIO, DMA, DMA,DMA, CPU,and a CTC whatever that was. Three


CTC is a Counter Timer Circuit -- Two(?) sixteen bit timers with various modes 
and input/output options.

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 10/7/20 10:32 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:


Using a KMC11 is similar


Other than the KMC being a Unibus bandwidth hog.

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 10/7/2020 10:32 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 12:07 PM Glen Slick via cctalk
 wrote:

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 8:37 AM Ethan Dicks wrote:

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:07 AM Peter Allan wrote:

RJE/HASP
2780/3780 Protocol Emulator

I used to do this with specialty hardware...

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/softwareResults/Software_Results_Comboard_Brochure_1983.pdf

There were also intelligent sync serial engines for this from other
vendors, including DEC (KMC11, and probably a later one but the device
name escapes me).

I was curious about this DEC M8704 DMS11-DA that sold cheap a few days
ago. It has eight SMC COM5025 "Multi-Protocol Universal Synchronous
Receiver/Transmitter USYNR/T" chips:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/373243388363

Apparently it can't do anything on its own. It needs to be connected
to a UNIBUS through a companion KMC11 processor board, which might not
be too common if someone wanted to put together a working
configuration.

I have very dim memories of that arrangement - it was definitely
ordinary that you had a dedicated I/O processor to run multiple lines.

Part of the salable benefit of the COMBOARD was having an 8MHz 68000
manage the actual protocol - it moved block file data to/from the DEC
host via DMA.  The M68K wrapped it up as needed, handled
re-transmission, etc.

Using a KMC11 is similar, IIRC, certainly at the bottom levels.

-ethan


-ethan

The protocol HASP used was unique because they had a novel BSC protocol 
handshake to reduce delays on the link due to handshake latency.


The normal protocol had an ack requirement that involved dead time on 
the link till the ACK had returned.  The HASP workstation protocol sent 
an ack on the front end  of another record if the prior record came and 
streamed data with NAKs as needed stopping and causing handshake 
delays.  A good link was much better used than a usual BSC link.


Also if you were printing an reading job submission data it got an 
almost full duplex use of the link speed going as the acks for prior 
records were prefaced on the front of the next data, rather than a 
standalone turn of the link just for ack.


Hasp had a term for their data protocol that's not come back to me.

The link between Hercules and whatever simulator's BSC would need to be 
able to handle that bit of trickery.


Thanks
Jim

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 12:07 PM Glen Slick via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 8:37 AM Ethan Dicks wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:07 AM Peter Allan wrote:
> > > RJE/HASP
> > > 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator
> >
> > I used to do this with specialty hardware...
> >
> > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/softwareResults/Software_Results_Comboard_Brochure_1983.pdf
> >
> > There were also intelligent sync serial engines for this from other
> > vendors, including DEC (KMC11, and probably a later one but the device
> > name escapes me).
>
> I was curious about this DEC M8704 DMS11-DA that sold cheap a few days
> ago. It has eight SMC COM5025 "Multi-Protocol Universal Synchronous
> Receiver/Transmitter USYNR/T" chips:
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/373243388363
>
> Apparently it can't do anything on its own. It needs to be connected
> to a UNIBUS through a companion KMC11 processor board, which might not
> be too common if someone wanted to put together a working
> configuration.

I have very dim memories of that arrangement - it was definitely
ordinary that you had a dedicated I/O processor to run multiple lines.

Part of the salable benefit of the COMBOARD was having an 8MHz 68000
manage the actual protocol - it moved block file data to/from the DEC
host via DMA.  The M68K wrapped it up as needed, handled
re-transmission, etc.

Using a KMC11 is similar, IIRC, certainly at the bottom levels.

-ethan


-ethan

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 10/7/20 9:36 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

On 10/7/20 8:29 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

That sounds like it, and I might have been the one to upload the drivers. Let 
me find one in the shed and take a picture.



https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1988/0185/report.pdf

https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1991/0262/report.pdf

from Larry Baker


they were popular X.25 cards that had BSD support
I think that's what we used at Apple to get on NSFnet


https://books.google.com/books?id=UB0EMBAJ=PA25

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 10/7/20 8:29 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

That sounds like it, and I might have been the one to upload the drivers. Let 
me find one in the shed and take a picture.



https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1988/0185/report.pdf

https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1991/0262/report.pdf

from Larry Baker


they were popular X.25 cards that had BSD support
I think that's what we used at Apple to get on NSFnet

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

Ok, here are pics of three of them that I dug out. Ring any bells?

https://i.imgur.com/YZ4pUtY.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/QcHbkjY.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/i68mtFW.jpg

Not as cool as the Chaosnet boards, but still interesting. Each board 
has a Z80A SIO, DMA, DMA,DMA, CPU,and a CTC whatever that was. Three 
EPROMS. One doesn't have the SIO but does have 4 PROMs and one EPROM.


Man, they were odd.


On 10/7/2020 11:06 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 9:46 AM Chris Zach via cctalk
 wrote:

I do have a bunch of Unibus 3270/X.25 boards from a third party vendor.
Big big boards with a bunch of Z80's on them to do all the protocol
work. Anyone interested in me digging them out and figuring out what
they were?


Do you have a way to share photos?  I'd be looking for vendor labels,
EPROM labels, and especially legible chip photos of 40 or 48-pin DIP
chips (one or two of which are likely to be USARTs - common ones to
look for are COM5025 and Zilog Z8530)

We used the COM5025 on our Unibus COMBOARDs (one model for Bisync and
one for SNA, but because of memory differences between our own boards,
not for protocol reasons).  Our VAXBI and Qbus boards, designed after
1984, used the Z8530.  We had HASP, 3780, and SNA available for the
Qbus board.

There are likely other chips, but those are the ones I have direct
experience with (and code examples for)

-ethan

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 8:37 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:07 AM Peter Allan via cctalk
>  wrote:
> > I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to
> > be run on RSX-11M.
> >
> > RJE/HASP
> > 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator
>
> I used to do this with specialty hardware...
>
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/softwareResults/Software_Results_Comboard_Brochure_1983.pdf
>
> ... and there were "non-intelligent" mostly-software HASP and 3780
> emulators, but I say mostly-software because you still needed a serial
> interface that could do Bisync (BSC) - like the DP(V)11 or DU(V)11.
> ISTR these chewed up a bunch of CPU, even on a VAX, and that's why we
> had a market for a $2,500 card and $20,000 license.
>
> While I do have all the code (and a fair amount of the hardware) from
> Software Results, writing a COMBOARD emulator would be rather complex
> - the core is a 68000 (easy enough to start from) with a COM5025 or
> Z8530 for a USART (probably not a ready-to-drop-in chunk of code) plus
> a DMA engine to the host bus implemented in two ways (different
> COMBOARD models).  That last bit would require deep understanding of
> the original hardware.
>
> There were also intelligent sync serial engines for this from other
> vendors, including DEC (KMC11, and probably a later one but the device
> name escapes me).

I was curious about this DEC M8704 DMS11-DA that sold cheap a few days
ago. It has eight SMC COM5025 "Multi-Protocol Universal Synchronous
Receiver/Transmitter USYNR/T" chips:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/373243388363

Apparently it can't do anything on its own. It needs to be connected
to a UNIBUS through a companion KMC11 processor board, which might not
be too common if someone wanted to put together a working
configuration.

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

That sounds like it, and I might have been the one to upload the 
drivers. Let me find one in the shed and take a picture.


C

On 10/7/2020 10:44 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

On 10/7/20 6:46 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

I do have a bunch of Unibus 3270/X.25 boards from a third party vendor.


ACC (Advanced Computer Communications)?

If you can find it, the PDP-11 RJE product was released to DECUS

I have it on fiche, but that would be tedious to reconstruct.

I don't think the comms requirements were that onerous. I thought it
worked with just a DU or DV11 single-line non-DMA synchronous controller.
The original RJEs couldn't run over 9600 bps. Supporting multiple 
synchronous

channels required the fancier hardware.

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 10:14 AM Jay Jaeger via cctalk
 wrote:
> I remembered reading a man page for 2780/3780 emulation under UNIX back
> in the day (turns out it was for AT PWB UNIX), and found it:
>
> http://quintile.net/pwb/rje_guide.pdfManual
>
> Code seems to exist in
>
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/USDL/spencer_pwb.tar.gz
>
> (And maybe other copies of PWB UNIX at tuhs.org)

I don't have links, but I remember there being a 2780 emulation
package for Ultrix-32 (VAX).  I don't remember right now if it was as
far back as v1.1; I could be remembering something from v.2.0, the
other version we were running in the late 80s.

-ethan

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 9:46 AM Chris Zach via cctalk
 wrote:
> I do have a bunch of Unibus 3270/X.25 boards from a third party vendor.
> Big big boards with a bunch of Z80's on them to do all the protocol
> work. Anyone interested in me digging them out and figuring out what
> they were?

Do you have a way to share photos?  I'd be looking for vendor labels,
EPROM labels, and especially legible chip photos of 40 or 48-pin DIP
chips (one or two of which are likely to be USARTs - common ones to
look for are COM5025 and Zilog Z8530)

We used the COM5025 on our Unibus COMBOARDs (one model for Bisync and
one for SNA, but because of memory differences between our own boards,
not for protocol reasons).  Our VAXBI and Qbus boards, designed after
1984, used the Z8530.  We had HASP, 3780, and SNA available for the
Qbus board.

There are likely other chips, but those are the ones I have direct
experience with (and code examples for)

-ethan

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 10:20 AM Paul Koning via cctalk
 wrote:
> >> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:07 AM Peter Allan via cctalk
> >>  wrote:
> >>> I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to
> >>> be run on RSX-11M.
> >>>
> >>> RJE/HASP
> >>> 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator

> > Hercules does have 2703 emulation, and bisync emulation does seem to be
> > present in SimH.  I think both support some level of TCP, so you might
> > be able to lash them up that way - but I would expect some hiccups along
> > the way.  But that would indeed still leave the software question from
> > the original post.

I found this looking for info on Hercules and 2703 emulation...

https://hercules-390.yahoogroups.narkive.com/520q2GNv/a-hercules-rfc-about-rje

> I would think that the simulators have very little to do here, at least on 
> the PDP11 end.  If a sync serial device is emulated as a stream of bytes, the 
> rest is up to the software.

Yes.  The CPU simulation on the PDP-11 side has nothing special to do,
but I don't see that there is device emulation for DU11 or DV11 sync
serial cards, and the application code running on the PDP-11 side is
going to want to see those device registers.  The transport layer is
immaterial, of course.

> At least in the 2780 emulation case, where BISYNC protocol handling is in 
> software and the serial ports just are raw byte pipes.

Yes, Bisync is just a stream of raw bytes, but ISTR the COM5025 (the
common 1970s USART for this purpose) might throw in flag bytes or
something minor that the application doesn't know about or see, but
the other end sees in the received byte stream.  It's been a few
decades since I've scoped a line, and I'd have to pull our code to see
what we fed to the COM5025 on the COMBOARD.

> Then it's a matter of finding RJ2780 software.  I know it exists for RSTS, 
> though I've never used it.  (It uses the KG11 to accelerate CRC processing, 
> I'm not sure if that's optional or required.)  RJ2780 was a product family 
> available with a number of operating systems so I'd assume RSTS isn't the 
> only OS that had it.  Finding a copy might be an interesting exercise -- that 
> appears to be the road block Peter is talking about.
>
> paul
>
>

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 10/7/20 6:46 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

I do have a bunch of Unibus 3270/X.25 boards from a third party vendor.


ACC (Advanced Computer Communications)?

If you can find it, the PDP-11 RJE product was released to DECUS

I have it on fiche, but that would be tedious to reconstruct.

I don't think the comms requirements were that onerous. I thought it
worked with just a DU or DV11 single-line non-DMA synchronous controller.
The original RJEs couldn't run over 9600 bps. Supporting multiple synchronous
channels required the fancier hardware.

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Oct 7, 2020, at 10:14 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 10/7/2020 8:41 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:07 AM Peter Allan via cctalk
>>  wrote:
>>> I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to
>>> be run on RSX-11M.
>>> 
>>> RJE/HASP
>>> 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator
>> 
>> 
> 
> Hercules does have 2703 emulation, and bisync emulation does seem to be
> present in SimH.  I think both support some level of TCP, so you might
> be able to lash them up that way - but I would expect some hiccups along
> the way.  But that would indeed still leave the software question from
> the original post.

I would think that the simulators have very little to do here, at least on the 
PDP11 end.  If a sync serial device is emulated as a stream of bytes, the rest 
is up to the software.  At least in the 2780 emulation case, where BISYNC 
protocol handling is in software and the serial ports just are raw byte pipes.

Then it's a matter of finding RJ2780 software.  I know it exists for RSTS, 
though I've never used it.  (It uses the KG11 to accelerate CRC processing, I'm 
not sure if that's optional or required.)  RJ2780 was a product family 
available with a number of operating systems so I'd assume RSTS isn't the only 
OS that had it.  Finding a copy might be an interesting exercise -- that 
appears to be the road block Peter is talking about.

paul

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

On 10/7/2020 8:41 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:07 AM Peter Allan via cctalk
>  wrote:
>> I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to
>> be run on RSX-11M.
>>
>> RJE/HASP
>> 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator
> 
> I used to do this with specialty hardware...
> 
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/softwareResults/Software_Results_Comboard_Brochure_1983.pdf
> 
>> ...
>> My aim is to be able to submit a remote job from a simulated PDP-11 on simh
>> to a simulated IBM/370 on Hercules. The products that I mentioned seem the
>> obvious way to do this, but anything that works would be helpful.
> 
> I think the idea is fantastic.  At the very least, after you identify
> a suitable software package for your target, there would need to be
> emulation written for whatever sync serial devices that the package
> can talk to, for the PDP-11 side.  I have no idea what sort of sync
> serial emulation is provided by Hercules, but if you can configure a
> TCP socket that pretends to be a BSC port, then that's what you'd
> need.
> 
> This is eminently do-able, but would likely require a fair bit of
> plumbing to get operational.
> 
> -ethan
> 

Hercules does have 2703 emulation, and bisync emulation does seem to be
present in SimH.  I think both support some level of TCP, so you might
be able to lash them up that way - but I would expect some hiccups along
the way.  But that would indeed still leave the software question from
the original post.

I remembered reading a man page for 2780/3780 emulation under UNIX back
in the day (turns out it was for AT PWB UNIX), and found it:

http://quintile.net/pwb/rje_guide.pdfManual

Code seems to exist in

http://minnie.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/USDL/spencer_pwb.tar.gz

(And maybe other copies of PWB UNIX at tuhs.org)

And then there is this, too, from 15-17 years ago, which would take work
to move to the PDP-11, of course, as this is a PC program.

https://hercules-390.yahoogroups.narkive.com/gGgUdOKm/rje80-3780-emulator-for-hercules-beta-version-available

It still seems to exist in the files area of hercules-390 in groups.io
under the "Yahoo Group files archive".

I'd love to do the same thing with a UNIVAC 1004 talking to an 1108
(actually, an IBM 1410 with a telegraph attachment emulating the 1004),
but I don't think the current modern OS/2200 emulation would support it.  ;)

JRJ

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

I do have a bunch of Unibus 3270/X.25 boards from a third party vendor. 
Big big boards with a bunch of Z80's on them to do all the protocol 
work. Anyone interested in me digging them out and figuring out what 
they were?


On 10/7/2020 9:41 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:07 AM Peter Allan via cctalk
 wrote:

I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to
be run on RSX-11M.

RJE/HASP
2780/3780 Protocol Emulator


I used to do this with specialty hardware...

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/softwareResults/Software_Results_Comboard_Brochure_1983.pdf

... and there were "non-intelligent" mostly-software HASP and 3780
emulators, but I say mostly-software because you still needed a serial
interface that could do Bisync (BSC) - like the DP(V)11 or DU(V)11.
ISTR these chewed up a bunch of CPU, even on a VAX, and that's why we
had a market for a $2,500 card and $20,000 license.

While I do have all the code (and a fair amount of the hardware) from
Software Results, writing a COMBOARD emulator would be rather complex
- the core is a 68000 (easy enough to start from) with a COM5025 or
Z8530 for a USART (probably not a ready-to-drop-in chunk of code) plus
a DMA engine to the host bus implemented in two ways (different
COMBOARD models).  That last bit would require deep understanding of
the original hardware.

There were also intelligent sync serial engines for this from other
vendors, including DEC (KMC11, and probably a later one but the device
name escapes me).


My aim is to be able to submit a remote job from a simulated PDP-11 on simh
to a simulated IBM/370 on Hercules. The products that I mentioned seem the
obvious way to do this, but anything that works would be helpful.


I think the idea is fantastic.  At the very least, after you identify
a suitable software package for your target, there would need to be
emulation written for whatever sync serial devices that the package
can talk to, for the PDP-11 side.  I have no idea what sort of sync
serial emulation is provided by Hercules, but if you can configure a
TCP socket that pretends to be a BSC port, then that's what you'd
need.

This is eminently do-able, but would likely require a fair bit of
plumbing to get operational.

-ethan

Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:07 AM Peter Allan via cctalk
 wrote:
> I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to
> be run on RSX-11M.
>
> RJE/HASP
> 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator

I used to do this with specialty hardware...

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/softwareResults/Software_Results_Comboard_Brochure_1983.pdf

... and there were "non-intelligent" mostly-software HASP and 3780
emulators, but I say mostly-software because you still needed a serial
interface that could do Bisync (BSC) - like the DP(V)11 or DU(V)11.
ISTR these chewed up a bunch of CPU, even on a VAX, and that's why we
had a market for a $2,500 card and $20,000 license.

While I do have all the code (and a fair amount of the hardware) from
Software Results, writing a COMBOARD emulator would be rather complex
- the core is a 68000 (easy enough to start from) with a COM5025 or
Z8530 for a USART (probably not a ready-to-drop-in chunk of code) plus
a DMA engine to the host bus implemented in two ways (different
COMBOARD models).  That last bit would require deep understanding of
the original hardware.

There were also intelligent sync serial engines for this from other
vendors, including DEC (KMC11, and probably a later one but the device
name escapes me).

> My aim is to be able to submit a remote job from a simulated PDP-11 on simh
> to a simulated IBM/370 on Hercules. The products that I mentioned seem the
> obvious way to do this, but anything that works would be helpful.

I think the idea is fantastic.  At the very least, after you identify
a suitable software package for your target, there would need to be
emulation written for whatever sync serial devices that the package
can talk to, for the PDP-11 side.  I have no idea what sort of sync
serial emulation is provided by Hercules, but if you can configure a
TCP socket that pretends to be a BSC port, then that's what you'd
need.

This is eminently do-able, but would likely require a fair bit of
plumbing to get operational.

-ethan