Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?
On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 11:37:49AM -0400, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I've used the SCSI2SD with great success with vintage DEC computers. > On QBUS machines, both vax and pdp-11, it has worked with Emulex UC07, TD > systems Viking, Andromeda SCDC and the DEC RQZX1 controllers. > I have used it on native SCSI controllers in VAX 3100, VLC 4000 and 64 bit > ALPHA machines. > > The only other point I would make is that you need a linux system with a > SCSI controller to move data in/out of the SCSI2SD. I am using a 64 bit > Debian system and I found that the 32 bit SCSI2SD utility wouldn't run on > the 64 bit machine and needed to be recompiled. However, I still use a > Windows 7 computer to setup the SCSI2Sd via USB. That is most likely due to missing libraries. On a 64 bit Linux system, by default only 64 bit libraries are installed (duh), but usually you can install 32 bit libraries to support 32 bit binaries. Exactly how to go about it of course depends on your distribution. Kind regards, Alex. > On 3/18/2019 10:15 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > > What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be > > SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this > > list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. > > > > Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not > > seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a > > supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the > > V6 available. > > > > It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without > > following the GPL. > > > > V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware > > supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was > > after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be > > consistent with the era. > > > > Chuck > -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?
The system I use (OSX) to mange the SCSI2SD cards configuration and firmware doesn't have a SCSI. I'd think of it more as a "nice to have" than a requirement. The V6 cards allow data exchange via USB2. If you have the appropriate images, you can just DD the data directly to the microSD cards on OSX and Linux. I move and backup images for RT11, XXDP, NeXT (Intel and 68K), SunSparc, Linux and VMS this way. The V5 cards have shown themselves to be quite versatile in my shop. Jerry On 3/20/19 10:37 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: I've used the SCSI2SD with great success with vintage DEC computers. On QBUS machines, both vax and pdp-11, it has worked with Emulex UC07, TD systems Viking, Andromeda SCDC and the DEC RQZX1 controllers. I have used it on native SCSI controllers in VAX 3100, VLC 4000 and 64 bit ALPHA machines. The only other point I would make is that you need a linux system with a SCSI controller to move data in/out of the SCSI2SD. I am using a 64 bit Debian system and I found that the 32 bit SCSI2SD utility wouldn't run on the 64 bit machine and needed to be recompiled. However, I still use a Windows 7 computer to setup the SCSI2Sd via USB. Doug On 3/18/2019 10:15 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?
I've used the SCSI2SD with great success with vintage DEC computers. On QBUS machines, both vax and pdp-11, it has worked with Emulex UC07, TD systems Viking, Andromeda SCDC and the DEC RQZX1 controllers. I have used it on native SCSI controllers in VAX 3100, VLC 4000 and 64 bit ALPHA machines. The only other point I would make is that you need a linux system with a SCSI controller to move data in/out of the SCSI2SD. I am using a 64 bit Debian system and I found that the 32 bit SCSI2SD utility wouldn't run on the 64 bit machine and needed to be recompiled. However, I still use a Windows 7 computer to setup the SCSI2Sd via USB. Doug On 3/18/2019 10:15 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the V6 available. It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without following the GPL. V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be consistent with the era. Chuck
RE: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?
They are very particular, and you need to be careful. I have one in DVD drive and it won't work with normal single ended SCSI only LVD. Dave > -Original Message- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of TeoZ via cctalk > Sent: 19 March 2019 20:29 > To: Chuck Guzis ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? > > Those are ATAPI to SCSI. > > -Original Message- > From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 3:38 PM > To: Rico Pajarola via cctalk > Subject: Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? > > FWIW, there are a couple of Addonics AEC7722 adapters (SCSI-to-IDE) > selling for $50-70 on eBay. Don't know a thing about them, though. > > --Chuck > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?
Those are ATAPI to SCSI. -Original Message- From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 3:38 PM To: Rico Pajarola via cctalk Subject: Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? FWIW, there are a couple of Addonics AEC7722 adapters (SCSI-to-IDE) selling for $50-70 on eBay. Don't know a thing about them, though. --Chuck --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?
I too have been using these for a few years; also on mostly 90s workstations and servers (Sun, SGI, Alpha, Apple, etc). I think I have about a dozen or so V5 boards. I've not tried the V6, as I've heard numerous stories of poor compability. The multi-mode emulation works fine. I booted my Sun SPARCStation 10 from a Solaris ISO using CD-ROM emulation mode and installed the OS onto an emulated HDD running on the same SCSI2SD. --- Jim Stefanik Dallas Vintage Computing Center From: Sophie Haskins via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, 19 March 2019 07:58 To: Charles Dickman; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? I've had pretty great luck with using SCSI2SDs in my various mostly-90s workstations (https://blog.pizzabox.computer/, among a few others). In a few cases (VAXstation 4000 VLC, Quadra 610) you need to put the settings to emulate a "real" model of drive, but otherwise compatibility has been pretty good. Someone later in the thread mentioned tape support - I haven't used it, but the configuration utility has the option to set a given SCSI ID to present itself as a tape drive. I have a feeling I'm gonna need to explore this when I get around to trying to get my Sun 3/80 running... Sophie -Original Message- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Charles Dickman via cctalk Sent: Monday, March 18, 2019 10:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the V6 available. It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without following the GPL. V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be consistent with the era. Chuck
Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?
FWIW, there are a couple of Addonics AEC7722 adapters (SCSI-to-IDE) selling for $50-70 on eBay. Don't know a thing about them, though. --Chuck
Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?
Is it perfect? No. Is it worth a try? Absolutely! I have both V5 and V6 and they work very well "most of the time". Some machines just don't like them (usually in the form of frequent bus resets). Some machines work better with the V5 and others better with the V6, and sometimes settings need to be tweaked, but overall I am very happy with them. I use them mostly as a CD-ROM replacement for installing the OS, and it saves enormous amounts of time and CD-Rs. Speed is definitely not an issue. On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 3:16 AM Charles Dickman via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be > SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this > list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. > > Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not > seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a > supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the > V6 available. > > It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without > following the GPL. > > V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware > supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was > after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be > consistent with the era. > > Chuck >
RE: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?
I've had pretty great luck with using SCSI2SDs in my various mostly-90s workstations (https://blog.pizzabox.computer/, among a few others). In a few cases (VAXstation 4000 VLC, Quadra 610) you need to put the settings to emulate a "real" model of drive, but otherwise compatibility has been pretty good. Someone later in the thread mentioned tape support - I haven't used it, but the configuration utility has the option to set a given SCSI ID to present itself as a tape drive. I have a feeling I'm gonna need to explore this when I get around to trying to get my Sun 3/80 running... Sophie -Original Message- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Charles Dickman via cctalk Sent: Monday, March 18, 2019 10:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the V6 available. It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without following the GPL. V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be consistent with the era. Chuck
Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?
I’m using v5.1 on a PDP-11/23 with an Emulex UC07 and it works well. I haven’t tried it on any other systems though. Get Outlook for iOS On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 4:32 AM -0400, "Sven Schnelle via cctalk" wrote: Hi, On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 10:15:48PM -0400, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be > SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this > list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. I own the V6 of this thing, and mostly used it with my HP9000/300 systems. In the beginning i had some trouble with HP-UX running from it, but there were some updates in the source repo end of last year which fixed these issues. I never had a V5, so i can't compare. > Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not > seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a > supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the > V6 available. > > It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without > following the GPL. It's partly open-source. The source code for the ST micro controller is open, but the FPGA part not. Only a binary blob is in the source repository. Regards Sven
Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?
Hi, On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 10:15:48PM -0400, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be > SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this > list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. I own the V6 of this thing, and mostly used it with my HP9000/300 systems. In the beginning i had some trouble with HP-UX running from it, but there were some updates in the source repo end of last year which fixed these issues. I never had a V5, so i can't compare. > Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not > seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a > supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the > V6 available. > > It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without > following the GPL. It's partly open-source. The source code for the ST micro controller is open, but the FPGA part not. Only a binary blob is in the source repository. Regards Sven
RE: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?
> -Original Message- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Charles Dickman > via cctalk > Sent: 19 March 2019 02:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? > > What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be > SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this > list. I > am curious about how well it works and which version to get. I a pre-V6 one for my Atari but have never used it in the Atari. It is now in my IBM PC Server but its only used for backup. Its in a single ended SCSI-1 card and its noticeably slower than the fast/wide spinning disks in the RAID array. > > Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not > seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a > supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the > V6 available. > V5 is GPL and the guy who built it was more than willing to talk about the code. I was wondering about adding tape support but he says that’s harder than you think... > It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without > following the GPL. > Yes, Chinese vendors... > V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware > supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was after > speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be consistent > with the era. > I think a lot of hardware supports synchronous transfers. I think for me it was the narrow/wide that slowed it down. > Chuck Dave
Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?
On 3/18/2019 9:15 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the V6 available. It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without following the GPL. V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be consistent with the era. Chuck I've had mixed success. Neither a V5.1 nor a V6.03 worked with my MicroVAX 3100 M95, it's built in SCSI interface and OpenVMS V7.3. Light access worked but as soon as you tried any kind of actual work it threw hoards of mount verification messages and errors piled up and became unusuable. On the other hand, the V5.1 worked terrific on my Compaq AlphaServer DS10 with a Qlogic ISP1020 SCSI card and OpenVMS V8.4 Others have had success with MicroVAXen and V7.3 and earlier so I think it's my system, but I haven't had time to work it out yet. -- John H. Reinhardt PRRT&HS #8909 C&O HS #11530 N-Trak #7566
Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?
> What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be > SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this > list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. Depends on the machine and the OS. Worked well in a PowerBook with MacOS, but NetBSD on my IIci threw all kinds of problems with it. Works great in my Solbourne S3000, but opened the SCSI fuse on my rare PowerBook "800." I don't know if v6 is appreciably better. Most of my experience is with v5. Odds are it will work but it's not a panacea, nor (in fairness) is it sold as one. Some observations in more detail: https://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2018/11/and-now-for-something-completely.html -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- Apathetic dyslexic agnostic: "I don't care if there's a dog" ---
Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?
On 3/18/19 7:22 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 7:16 PM Charles Dickman via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the V6 available. It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without following the GPL. V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be consistent with the era. Chuck I've been using the V5 boards in a variety of systems for a few years now -- VAX (micro-and-otherwise), PDP-11 (via the usual Emulex and CMD controllers), Sun-2 and Sun-3 workstations, HP/Apollo 400 systems, a Symbolics XL1200, various old Macintosh systems and probably some other things I've forgotten. At LCM+L we're using them in our VAX-11/785 and 730, and we're using a V6 in our 7000-640. I've had very few issues and the developer has been very responsive to bug reports (though I'll admit it's been a couple of years since I've had to report one). The V5 is plenty fast for most vintage gear, I don't think they come close to hitting the max throughput. That's what I'd recommend for the systems you're talking about. - Josh I have only used the V5 boards. I have not tried them on as many systems as Josh, but otherwise I have had similar position experiences using them. I have been using them on sun4c and sun4m systems. alan
Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?
On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 7:16 PM Charles Dickman via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be > SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this > list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. > > Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not > seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a > supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the > V6 available. > > It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without > following the GPL. > > V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware > supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was > after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be > consistent with the era. > > Chuck > I've been using the V5 boards in a variety of systems for a few years now -- VAX (micro-and-otherwise), PDP-11 (via the usual Emulex and CMD controllers), Sun-2 and Sun-3 workstations, HP/Apollo 400 systems, a Symbolics XL1200, various old Macintosh systems and probably some other things I've forgotten. At LCM+L we're using them in our VAX-11/785 and 730, and we're using a V6 in our 7000-640. I've had very few issues and the developer has been very responsive to bug reports (though I'll admit it's been a couple of years since I've had to report one). The V5 is plenty fast for most vintage gear, I don't think they come close to hitting the max throughput. That's what I'd recommend for the systems you're talking about. - Josh
SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?
What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the V6 available. It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without following the GPL. V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be consistent with the era. Chuck
