Re: Strange Teledisk question
> Find a copy of Anadisk and see what it reports regarding sector > ordering. Also, you might try "sector" mode with the "Diagnostic Read" > function, though that requires a bit of knowledge. I did have a look at that, now that the show we were getting ready for is finished I can spend a bit more time analysing. I used Anadisk to get disk details for ImageDisk because that’s usually the first utility I go for. It was just pure fluke that I suggested he re-imaged the disk with Teledisk and was amazed that it worked. > Another thing to try is to grab a copy of Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk > utility and see if it gets the copy right. You could also image both > disks and compare the images. I’ll do that too. Hurray for ‘special case’ code though :) > People still have diskette drives? Somebody has apparently got an HxC emulator running in a Waveterm but we didn’t have time to investigate that route. Because the Waveterm is still thinking there’s 8” drives in there it keeps the motor running constantly and only drops the head to read a sample. Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaursf: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk
Re: Strange Teledisk question
> On 24 Jun 2018, at 03:03, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > What kind of drives does the Waveterm use? I mentioned that in the original message, YE-Data YD380 HD with Shugart interface > What kind of disk controller? WD FDC1793. The main board is an Eltec Eurocom II V7. > For example: > 96tpi (80 tracks per side) drives can read 48tpi (40 tracks per side) disks, > and can write them to virgin disks, but, when RE-writing them, leave part of > the old (wide) track alongside. Those RE-written disks are readable by a > 96tpi drive, but not necessarily by a 48tpi drive. The PC’s drive is simply the IBM version of the same drive, it’s a YE-Data YD380B. We format a disk using the PPG utilitiy (PPGA.EXE) then write a disk image to it, reread that disk with Teledisk and re-rewrite it again with Teledisk back to the same disk. > PC is NEC-style FDC. The motherboard in the PC we’re using is an Abit board containing a Winbond SuperIO chip, I can’t remember which variant but it seems most Athlon-based boards have one of these chips on, my own imaging machine is an Abit KV8Pro with a Winbond W83627HF. What that is based on I have no idea. > > WD-style disk controllers (such as 179x) can handle post index gap smaller > than NEC-style can. For reading with NEC controllers, that can often be > handled by masking the index pulse. > > WD-style controllers can read sectors that have a WRONG number in the side > number field, but NEC can't ignore that field. The good news there is on > formats that use a wrong number in the side number field (such as Kaypro DS), > the WD controller doesn't MIND if it encounters the correct number in that > field. So you’re saying that the WD controller is a lot more easy-going for slightly awry disks whereas the NEC one is more strict? That could make sense in this case were we going from WD to NEC but we’re going the other way around. > The FDADAP adapter's primary difference between a simple cable is support of > TG43, a signal to indicate that it is on an inner track, for > write-precompensation, etc. For 8” drives yes, which at some point I will be using assuming both my 8” drives work, but it should also let me connect up a non-IBM drive to my PC if I read the description correctly. Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaursf: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk
Re: Strange Teledisk question
On 06/23/2018 04:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I had hoped that Chuck would have an answer. > > If you have two disks that are nominally the same, and one works and the > other doesn't, then there is obviously something different. > > If the sector contents are the same, then the next step would be to > examine the headers, gaps, and addressmarks. > > For example, > if the gap after index pulse, before the first sector ofeach track is > too short, then it may not be able to read the sector header of the > first sector. (A serious and common problem with NEC-style FDC, not > usually a prolem with WD-style FDC) > > Do you have a way to examine the raw track encoding? > I used a track read with a WD 179x (slightly modified "Trakcess" on > TRS80 Model 3), and "TE" with the Central Point Option Board. Find a copy of Anadisk and see what it reports regarding sector ordering. Also, you might try "sector" mode with the "Diagnostic Read" function, though that requires a bit of knowledge. Another thing to try is to grab a copy of Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk utility and see if it gets the copy right. You could also image both disks and compare the images. TeleDisk has a lot of "special case" code. People still have diskette drives? --Chuck
Re: Strange Teledisk question
What kind of drives does the Waveterm use? What kind of disk controller? For example: 96tpi (80 tracks per side) drives can read 48tpi (40 tracks per side) disks, and can write them to virgin disks, but, when RE-writing them, leave part of the old (wide) track alongside. Those RE-written disks are readable by a 96tpi drive, but not necessarily by a 48tpi drive. PC is NEC-style FDC. WD-style disk controllers (such as 179x) can handle post index gap smaller than NEC-style can. For reading with NEC controllers, that can often be handled by masking the index pulse. WD-style controllers can read sectors that have a WRONG number in the side number field, but NEC can't ignore that field. The good news there is on formats that use a wrong number in the side number field (such as Kaypro DS), the WD controller doesn't MIND if it encounters the correct number in that field. SOME NEC-style FDCs can not handle 128 bytes per sector. Some can. The FDADAP adapter's primary difference between a simple cable is support of TG43, a signal to indicate that it is on an inner track, for write-precompensation, etc.
Re: Strange Teledisk question
On Sat, Jun 23, 2018 at 5:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > All the disk images for the Waveterm have been created using programs >>> written by PPG users. For some reason any disk we wrote with them >>> wouldn’t read correctly in the machine itself UNTIL we made a new >>> image of that disk using Teledisk 2.15 then re-wrote it back to the >>> same floppy. My question is why should that make so much of a >>> difference between working and non-working disks? >>> >> On Sat, 23 Jun 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> I'd love to be able to tell you, but I really haven't fooled with the >> thing for something like 17 years. >> > > I had hoped that Chuck would have an answer. > > If you have two disks that are nominally the same, and one works and the > other doesn't, then there is obviously something different. > > If the sector contents are the same, then the next step would be to > examine the headers, gaps, and addressmarks. > Also, sector ordering can be an issue with more obscure formats... Though most drives can cope with non-consecutive ordering... In some cases, track width may also matter, especially for 40 track formats. > For example, > if the gap after index pulse, before the first sector ofeach track is too > short, then it may not be able to read the sector header of the first > sector. (A serious and common problem with NEC-style FDC, not usually a > prolem with WD-style FDC) > > Do you have a way to examine the raw track encoding? > I used a track read with a WD 179x (slightly modified "Trakcess" on TRS80 > Model 3), and "TE" with the Central Point Option Board. > I used to mess around with different drives on different machines. These days I find that kyroflux just works (on the right drive) and I don't have to mess with weird things. It has a small learning curve, but it allowed me, through brute force, to read the Rainbow Venix disks that were otherwise not readable... It was ~$100 well spent... Warner
Re: Strange Teledisk question
All the disk images for the Waveterm have been created using programs written by PPG users. For some reason any disk we wrote with them wouldn’t read correctly in the machine itself UNTIL we made a new image of that disk using Teledisk 2.15 then re-wrote it back to the same floppy. My question is why should that make so much of a difference between working and non-working disks? On Sat, 23 Jun 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: I'd love to be able to tell you, but I really haven't fooled with the thing for something like 17 years. I had hoped that Chuck would have an answer. If you have two disks that are nominally the same, and one works and the other doesn't, then there is obviously something different. If the sector contents are the same, then the next step would be to examine the headers, gaps, and addressmarks. For example, if the gap after index pulse, before the first sector ofeach track is too short, then it may not be able to read the sector header of the first sector. (A serious and common problem with NEC-style FDC, not usually a prolem with WD-style FDC) Do you have a way to examine the raw track encoding? I used a track read with a WD 179x (slightly modified "Trakcess" on TRS80 Model 3), and "TE" with the Central Point Option Board. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: Strange Teledisk question
On 06/23/2018 02:17 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > All the disk images for the Waveterm have been created using programs > written by PPG users. For some reason any disk we wrote with them > wouldn’t read correctly in the machine itself UNTIL we made a new > image of that disk using Teledisk 2.15 then re-wrote it back to the > same floppy. My question is why should that make so much of a > difference between working and non-working disks? I'd love to be able to tell you, but I really haven't fooled with the thing for something like 17 years. --Chuck
Strange Teledisk question
Hi folks, For the last few weeks I’ve been helping the owner of a PPG2.2 synthesizer get the ‘computer’ side of it, a Waveterm A, running. The Waveterm is a 6809-based single board computer running FLEX that was designed to use 8” drives, then at some point they modified it slightly to use 5.25” HD drives instead but changed very little - to connect up to the main board they made a 34-50pin adapter. The drives are YE-Data YD380 with a Shugart interface so without some sort of signal bender like a DBit FDADAP I couldn’t just plug them into a PC. However, the YE-Data YD380B has an IBM interface so we used one of those, same mechanism so we figured it should work. All the disk images for the Waveterm have been created using programs written by PPG users. For some reason any disk we wrote with them wouldn’t read correctly in the machine itself UNTIL we made a new image of that disk using Teledisk 2.15 then re-wrote it back to the same floppy. My question is why should that make so much of a difference between working and non-working disks? Trivia: for anyone aware of the 80s UK Music industry this very machine was used for the hit ‘You spin me round (like a record)’ by Dead Or Alive. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaursf: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk
