OT: Samsung Phone email Strikes again WAS: RE: The best hard drives??
> How do I unsubsidized?Terminal cancer here Best to to allJackEvergreen > coloradoSent via the Samsung Galaxy S20+ 5G, an AT 5G smartphone Good to see my emails are not the only ones mangles by the default Samsung email client. ;) Still trying to find an acceptable replacement... -Ali
Re: The best hard drives??
How do I unsubsidized?Terminal cancer here Best to to allJackEvergreen coloradoSent via the Samsung Galaxy S20+ 5G, an AT 5G smartphone Original message From: Peter Corlett via cctalk Date: 11/20/20 15:47 (GMT-07:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: The best hard drives?? On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 09:36:00AM -0500, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:[...]>>> It also turns out that £1 ≈ €1 ≈ $1.> Close, but no cigar. I just bought something from Europe 3 days ago.This rule of thumb only applies to stuff imported from the USA to Europe, orfrom anywhere to the UK. It also only applies to prices quoted to consumers.> Exchange rate: $ 1 USD = € 0.8111 EURSince the actual rate has been about €0.845 for a few months now, I guess yourbank charges 4% over the mid-market rate. That seems a bit high.However, as you surely know, the EU applies tarrifs on imports, and individualcountries also charge consumers VAT. Tariffs tend to be fairly nominal or zerounless there's a trade war going on, whereas VAT varies between 15% and 25%.So if I import a $100 widget, even if it has a zero tariff, I still get to pay21% Dutch VAT which brings it to $121, or €102. Therefore $1 ≈ €1.That same $100 widget imported into the UK becomes $120 due to the 20% VATrate, which comes to £90, but the UK has its own self-inflicted problems whichcause importers loads of extra costs and £100 is easily believable.If I take off my consumer hat and put on my businessman hat, I can import stuffwithout paying VAT and then it is just the $100, €84.50, or £75 suggested bythe exchange rate.
Re: The best hard drives??
On Fri, 20 Nov 2020, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > That same $100 widget imported into the UK becomes $120 due to the 20% VAT > rate, which comes to £90, but the UK has its own self-inflicted problems which > cause importers loads of extra costs and £100 is easily believable. Don't forget a fixed per-clearance administrative fee, covering all the bureaucratic processing, will easily fill the missing £10 (exact amount varies by the carrier). For an item worth $20 received via Royal Mail I recently paid £13.31 customs charges: £5.31 VAT + £8.00 handling fee -- almost doubling the nominal value of the item (and that does not include postage!). Maciej
Re: The best hard drives??
On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 10:34:10AM +0100, mazzinia--- via cctalk wrote: > Interesting read, > What is your opinion of the Seagate exos 7e8 units ? (and does SED make any > difference in ensuring a bit more quality of the platters) I've not used them, but Exos disks ought to be be just fine. You don't stay in business by selling junk to enterprise customers. The Exos 2X14 is a fascinating device due to its dual actuators, and thus has twice the throughput and IOPS. It's like getting two 7TB disks in a single 3.5" slot and uses just one SATA/SAS lane so good for high storage density. I suspect it makes it twice as unreliable though. I also can't find them for sale anywhere.
Re: The best hard drives??
On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 09:36:00AM -0500, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: [...] >>> It also turns out that £1 ≈ €1 ≈ $1. > Close, but no cigar. I just bought something from Europe 3 days ago. This rule of thumb only applies to stuff imported from the USA to Europe, or from anywhere to the UK. It also only applies to prices quoted to consumers. > Exchange rate: $ 1 USD = € 0.8111 EUR Since the actual rate has been about €0.845 for a few months now, I guess your bank charges 4% over the mid-market rate. That seems a bit high. However, as you surely know, the EU applies tarrifs on imports, and individual countries also charge consumers VAT. Tariffs tend to be fairly nominal or zero unless there's a trade war going on, whereas VAT varies between 15% and 25%. So if I import a $100 widget, even if it has a zero tariff, I still get to pay 21% Dutch VAT which brings it to $121, or €102. Therefore $1 ≈ €1. That same $100 widget imported into the UK becomes $120 due to the 20% VAT rate, which comes to £90, but the UK has its own self-inflicted problems which cause importers loads of extra costs and £100 is easily believable. If I take off my consumer hat and put on my businessman hat, I can import stuff without paying VAT and then it is just the $100, €84.50, or £75 suggested by the exchange rate.
Re: The best hard drives??
On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 02:54:27PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >> Five MyBooks bought 18 months ago had debranded He8 disks in there: very >> nice. >> The three Elements a few months back have (non-SMR) WD Reds in them, which is >> OK. Three more are supposedly turning up tomorrow. > Oh blast, I wish I had known then... I've now had time to spin up the server and query all six of these Elements. They are model number WD80EDAZ-11TA3A0, i.e. 7200RPM air-filled Reds. Since you'd normally have to get a Red Pro to guarantee that spec, and those are currently around €260, I'm obviously quite chuffed that I got these for €115-€135 a pop even if they're not the holy grail of He8s. I'm getting 1.03GB/s (or 986MiB/s if you have 10.07 fingers) across the six spindles from copying some random data onto the zpool and then doing a scrub: pool: test state: ONLINE scan: scrub in progress since Fri Nov 20 22:43:28 2020 121G scanned at 1.92G/s, 60.7G issued at 986M/s, 121G total 0B repaired, 50.23% done, 0 days 00:01:02 to go That's faster than the SSDs used for the boot volume. >> It also turns out that £1 ≈ €1 ≈ $1. > Indeed so. Sadly, most Merkins don't know this and wail about not > understanding Weird Forrin Money. What's further distorting prices on some things I import from Germany is that they have a temporary VAT reduction from 19% to 16% due to the plague, but unsurprisingly this made no difference to the VAT-inclusive prices offered to consumers. However, the Dutch VAT rate remained at 21% and since I have to pay the difference when importing so what's actually happened is that Germany has caused a 3% price increase. In some cases its actually 5% because some German sellers used to happily charge the same VAT-inclusive prices to Dutch and German consumers and eat the 2% difference, but 5% is just too much for them to absorb so they charge the "proper" price. Since the Czech Republic also has 21% VAT, do you have this experience too?
Re: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives??
> >How many are aware that the capital of South Dakota, "PIERRE" is >pronounced by the locals "PEER"? > > >Is the "correct" pronunciation the dominant local one? I knew about a city called like my first name, but I never knew that it was pronounced that differently :-D Cheers, Pierre - http://www.digitalheritage.de
Re: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives??
On 11/19/20 3:56 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > How many are aware that the capital of South Dakota, "PIERRE" is > pronounced by the locals "PEER"? > > > Is the "correct" pronunciation the dominant local one? That's the way I learned it. Other US cities: Valparaiso (IN) Edinburgh (IN) Cairo (IL) Des Plaines (IL) Creve Coeur, (MO) (That's "Creeve Core" to you, thank you) etc. etc. One of the strangest US situations is the pronunciation of the Arkansas river. In Kansas and eastern Colorado, it's said the way that it's spelled, with the final "s". Go further downstream into Oklahoma and central Colorado and the state of Arkansas, it's "Arkansaw". I won't delve into the geographical names of the Welsh tract in Pennsylvania... --Chuck
Re: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives??
Why don't you guys take this to another list, where someone might actually see its relevance? Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
Re: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives??
How many are aware that the capital of South Dakota, "PIERRE" is pronounced by the locals "PEER"? Is the "correct" pronunciation the dominant local one?
Re: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives??
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 6:14 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > In most detective programs until at least the late > 50's: Los Angeles == LAS ahn-gall-lees Definitely heard that a bunch on Perry Mason. -ethan
Re: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives??
On 11/19/20 5:06 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: For a while, I lived near "Bawlmer" (Baltimore) On Thu, 19 Nov 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: Huh. I did not know Baltimore was not pronounced boll-tea-more. I was told that the "correct" pronunciation was BAWL-tim-more Well, admittedly, there was a time half a century ago, when certain forces objected to the "MISpronunciation". Radio staff, in response to the pressure, said bawl - TEA-more. Half a century ago, there were horse drawn rag carts, a lot of cobblestone streets, giant mutant rats at the harbor, and major renovation being started. Along route 40, and many other major streets, there were dozens of blocks slated for demolition. They developed a style of their own; they took all of the doors from inside a condemned group of houses and nailed those together to make a fence. So, there would be block after block of multicolored door-fence from street corner to street corner, punctuated at intervals by marble doorsteps. I have heard that the harbor is now a tourist destination; that probably includes a reduction of the rat population. Long Island (NY) was pronounced Lawn-GUY-land If you want a real hoot, try listening to some Old Time Radio. In Gunsmoke: Arkansas == ARE-can-sass In most detective programs until at least the late 50's: Los Angeles == LAS ahn-gall-lees And let's not forget Kato, the Green Hornets faithful val-let. English always was and still is a very fluid language. bill
Re: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives??
On 11/19/20 4:06 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Long Island (NY) was pronounced Lawn-GUY-land The current Long Island accent developed in the mid to late 80's. Most of us living there before that had Bronx or Brooklyn accents... I remember some of my friends would type on a ASR-33 with different accents as well
Re: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives??
For a while, I lived near "Bawlmer" (Baltimore) On Thu, 19 Nov 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: Huh. I did not know Baltimore was not pronounced boll-tea-more. I was told that the "correct" pronunciation was BAWL-tim-more Well, admittedly, there was a time half a century ago, when certain forces objected to the "MISpronunciation". Radio staff, in response to the pressure, said bawl - TEA-more. Half a century ago, there were horse drawn rag carts, a lot of cobblestone streets, giant mutant rats at the harbor, and major renovation being started. Along route 40, and many other major streets, there were dozens of blocks slated for demolition. They developed a style of their own; they took all of the doors from inside a condemned group of houses and nailed those together to make a fence. So, there would be block after block of multicolored door-fence from street corner to street corner, punctuated at intervals by marble doorsteps. I have heard that the harbor is now a tourist destination; that probably includes a reduction of the rat population. Long Island (NY) was pronounced Lawn-GUY-land
Re: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives??
On 19-11-2020 18:11, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > They're soft but not silent in my accent. But you're from the northwest and > all > bets are off when it comes to how the pie-eaters speak. Presumably at least > the > "P" in "psalm" is silent, because that really does sound weird if not. https://www.amazon.com/Pterodactyl-Worst-Alphabet-Book-Ever/dp/1492674311 Julf
Re: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives??
Joolery Febyuary Wenzday New-cu-elar
Re: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives??
On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 17:58, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > As an American, I think Hugh Laurie and Bob Hoskins have quite > acceptable American accents AIUI, most people do. I think it's just to their countrymen that they sound artificial. > as does Jamie Bamber (Lee "Apollo" Adama > in Battlestar Galactica). (*Googles*) Oh! Didn't know he wasn't. But apparently his dad's American, so I guess he grew up hearing it. > The funny thing is I just caught an episode > of Hugh Lauie in Masterpiece Theater "Roadkill" and thought he sounds > "less British" than he did in the days of Fry and Laurie. :-) > We have a Wooster, Ohio, but owing to the local rural accent, there's > a "Wster/Wuhster" pronunciation split. The local joke is > "Wooster, where the cows say 'Muh'". :-D -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives??
On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 12:20:36PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: [...] >> But yesterday, I discovered that the 'L' in words such as "palm", "balm" and >> "psalm" is _no longer_ silent and is actively pronounced in some regions of >> the US, and mere surprise was no longer adequate and I was forced to resort >> to astonishment. They're soft but not silent in my accent. But you're from the northwest and all bets are off when it comes to how the pie-eaters speak. Presumably at least the "P" in "psalm" is silent, because that really does sound weird if not. > Nobody around here will use Worcestershire sauce, because they are afraid to > even try to pronounce it. Call it "Lea and Perrins" like the rest of us, except in Sheffield where it's called "Henderson's" for reasons that Yorkshiremen will readily expand upon in depth, regardless of whether or not you actually wanted to know.
Re: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives??
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 11:14 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
wrote:
> (Aside: it is amusing to me, at least, that some British actors
> succeeded in Hollywood or TV analogues thereof, playing Americans, in
> what to other Brits sound like unconvincing accents: Hugh Laurie
> ("House"), Bob Hoskins ("Who Framed Roger Rabbit?").)
As an American, I think Hugh Laurie and Bob Hoskins have quite
acceptable American accents, as does Jamie Bamber (Lee "Apollo" Adama
in Battlestar Galactica). The funny thing is I just caught an episode
of Hugh Lauie in Masterpiece Theater "Roadkill" and thought he sounds
"less British" than he did in the days of Fry and Laurie.
> It took me decades to realise, but P G Wodehouse's famed fictional
> character Bertie Wooster has the same name. "Wooster" is just a
> phonetic rendering of "Worcester". Any placename with "chester" or
> variant thereof is ~2000 years old...
>Worcester → "Wooster"
We have a Wooster, Ohio, but owing to the local rural accent, there's
a "Wster/Wuhster" pronunciation split. The local joke is
"Wooster, where the cows say 'Muh'".
-ethan
Re: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives??
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 21:20, Fred Cisin via cctalk
wrote:
>
> And the machines that Calcomp made (570, etc.) were called "plodders"
I am well-used to that one; I think all Brits are, from TV and cinema.
(Aside: it is amusing to me, at least, that some British actors
succeeded in Hollywood or TV analogues thereof, playing Americans, in
what to other Brits sound like unconvincing accents: Hugh Laurie
("House"), Bob Hoskins ("Who Framed Roger Rabbit?").)
> Nobody around here will use Worcestershire sauce, because they are
> afraid to even try to pronounce it.
It took me decades to realise, but P G Wodehouse's famed fictional
character Bertie Wooster has the same name. "Wooster" is just a
phonetic rendering of "Worcester". Any placename with "chester" or
variant thereof is ~2000 years old, because it derives from the Latin
"castrum" used by the Romans. Castra were Roman fortified bases.
Sounds drift a lot over two millennia.
Gloucester → "Gloster"
Leicester → "Lester"
Worcester → "Wooster"
My personal favourite is Woolfardisworthy. It's a pretty little
village, but its name sounds so different, they put the phonetic
version on signposts too, so outsiders can actually find it: Woolsery.
> For a while, I lived near "Bawlmer" (Baltimore)
Huh. I did not know Baltimore was not pronounced boll-tea-more.
I've watched this many times but never clocked on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfIWX5vGTEk ← sweary but highly amusing
> (The most significant landmark is the B R O M O S E L T Z E R clock - what
> time is it when both hands are on 'O's?)
*Googles it* Coo...
--
Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: The best hard drives??
On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 6:24 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On 11/18/20 8:16 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 6:00 PM Paul Koning via cctalk <
> > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Nov 18, 2020, at 5:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
> >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Tangential to this, I've long wondered about some things relating to
> >>> SSDs. Are there any solid figures on their retention period after
> years
> >>> of being unpowered?
> >>>
> >>> The reason I ask is that I've long been in the habit of simply shelving
> >>> an old hard drive when I upgrade or replace a system. I've got hard
> >>> drives that still work that hail back to the days of OS/2 1.1; some
> >>> larger ones go back to the 1970s.
> >>
> >> You should be able to find the answer in the drive specs.
> >>
> >> As I understand it, there are two rather different ranges of answer
> >> depending on whether you're looking at an enterprise class drive, which
> is
> >> optimized for high speed and large total amount of data written, vs. a
> >> consumer drive. The power-off retention spec is much shorter for the
> >> enterprise drives. I forgot the numbers; I vaguely remember it being
> less
> >> than a year.
> >>
> >
> > For SSD devices, based on NAND Flash, the specs for retention are 90 days
> > for enterprise drives and 1 year for consumer drives, both at 20C. The
> > difference allows enterprise drives to trade retention for increased
> write
> > rate.
> >
> >
> >> If the drive has power it will do something analogous to DRAM refresh to
> >> keep the bits in good shape. But it seems that the HDD rule that you
> can
> >> just set a drive on the shelf for a decade (ditto with other magnetic
> >> media) does not necessarily carry over to SSD.
> >>
> >
> > Yes. NAND is just a bunch of small capacitors that decay over time. The
> bit
> > error rate increases following the arrhenius law. The ECC that goes along
> > with NAND is paired to allow NAND that's almost worn out to still retain
> > data for {3 months/1 year} given its expected bit error rate when it's
> > almost worn out when programmed, coupled with the expected decay during
> the
> > specified retention time.
> >
> > Also note I said "at 20C." The acceleration effect can be quite
> pronounced
> > should the data center suffer some catastrophic event that leaves it
> > without power in a super hot environment for weeks or months. At ~70C the
> > acceleration factor can be as high as 30-90x, which can render enterprise
> > drives not reliable after a few days baking at high temperatures.
> >
> > Brand new NAND, on the other hand, typically has retention capabilities
> > measured in years or tens of years. It's the wear and tear of use that
> > makes it less reliable, often much less reliable. And the multi level per
> > cell technologies are much worse than the single level per cell. It's one
> > reason that the smaller number of bits per cell NAND tends to last longer
> > than larger bits per cell, all other things being equal. The smaller
> > process sizes also were less reliable since they could store fewer
> > electrons (sometimes as few as a dozen or two per state). 3D NAND was so
> > much better because it could grow vertically, allowing NAND manufacturers
> > to return to larger process sizes and still increase density, also giving
> > better endurance for a time...
> >
>
> An interesting write-up. Brings up a question on a slightly related
> item. Do Compact Flash and SD have the same short life when not
> powered? What things like Flash Memory used to hold firmware on
> other kinds of chips.
>
Yes. They do. It's all the same NAND. However, as I said, freshly made NAND
tends to have very long retention times, so for those use cases, the
application is fine. Unless you are doing a lot of writing to the drive
where the firmware is on, you'll see good results. And a lot usually means
on the order or rewriting the drive every day. Almost all CF (larger than
around 16MB) and SD cards (larger than about 32MB) have wear leveling as
well, which periodically moves the cold OS data around to even out the P/E
cycles the erase blocks across the device. Also, most of the time, the
firmware is in devices that's powered on, so it will move the data should
it decay too much, even when there's not a lot of traffic to the drive
(especially, that's when the FTL loves to do its housekeeping).
'writing often' for NAND in this context is usually measured in 'several
times per day', though with QLC drives, this can be as little as 0.3 or
0.1. The drive writes per day (DWPD) is a spec sheet item these days, and
different levels of drive have differing values clustering around 0.3, 1, 3
and higher...
Warner
Re: The best hard drives??
On 11/18/20 8:16 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 6:00 PM Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Nov 18, 2020, at 5:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
Tangential to this, I've long wondered about some things relating to
SSDs. Are there any solid figures on their retention period after years
of being unpowered?
The reason I ask is that I've long been in the habit of simply shelving
an old hard drive when I upgrade or replace a system. I've got hard
drives that still work that hail back to the days of OS/2 1.1; some
larger ones go back to the 1970s.
You should be able to find the answer in the drive specs.
As I understand it, there are two rather different ranges of answer
depending on whether you're looking at an enterprise class drive, which is
optimized for high speed and large total amount of data written, vs. a
consumer drive. The power-off retention spec is much shorter for the
enterprise drives. I forgot the numbers; I vaguely remember it being less
than a year.
For SSD devices, based on NAND Flash, the specs for retention are 90 days
for enterprise drives and 1 year for consumer drives, both at 20C. The
difference allows enterprise drives to trade retention for increased write
rate.
If the drive has power it will do something analogous to DRAM refresh to
keep the bits in good shape. But it seems that the HDD rule that you can
just set a drive on the shelf for a decade (ditto with other magnetic
media) does not necessarily carry over to SSD.
Yes. NAND is just a bunch of small capacitors that decay over time. The bit
error rate increases following the arrhenius law. The ECC that goes along
with NAND is paired to allow NAND that's almost worn out to still retain
data for {3 months/1 year} given its expected bit error rate when it's
almost worn out when programmed, coupled with the expected decay during the
specified retention time.
Also note I said "at 20C." The acceleration effect can be quite pronounced
should the data center suffer some catastrophic event that leaves it
without power in a super hot environment for weeks or months. At ~70C the
acceleration factor can be as high as 30-90x, which can render enterprise
drives not reliable after a few days baking at high temperatures.
Brand new NAND, on the other hand, typically has retention capabilities
measured in years or tens of years. It's the wear and tear of use that
makes it less reliable, often much less reliable. And the multi level per
cell technologies are much worse than the single level per cell. It's one
reason that the smaller number of bits per cell NAND tends to last longer
than larger bits per cell, all other things being equal. The smaller
process sizes also were less reliable since they could store fewer
electrons (sometimes as few as a dozen or two per state). 3D NAND was so
much better because it could grow vertically, allowing NAND manufacturers
to return to larger process sizes and still increase density, also giving
better endurance for a time...
An interesting write-up. Brings up a question on a slightly related
item. Do Compact Flash and SD have the same short life when not
powered? What things like Flash Memory used to hold firmware on
other kinds of chips.
bill
Re: The best hard drives??
On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 6:00 PM Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>
> > On Nov 18, 2020, at 5:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Tangential to this, I've long wondered about some things relating to
> > SSDs. Are there any solid figures on their retention period after years
> > of being unpowered?
> >
> > The reason I ask is that I've long been in the habit of simply shelving
> > an old hard drive when I upgrade or replace a system. I've got hard
> > drives that still work that hail back to the days of OS/2 1.1; some
> > larger ones go back to the 1970s.
>
> You should be able to find the answer in the drive specs.
>
> As I understand it, there are two rather different ranges of answer
> depending on whether you're looking at an enterprise class drive, which is
> optimized for high speed and large total amount of data written, vs. a
> consumer drive. The power-off retention spec is much shorter for the
> enterprise drives. I forgot the numbers; I vaguely remember it being less
> than a year.
>
For SSD devices, based on NAND Flash, the specs for retention are 90 days
for enterprise drives and 1 year for consumer drives, both at 20C. The
difference allows enterprise drives to trade retention for increased write
rate.
> If the drive has power it will do something analogous to DRAM refresh to
> keep the bits in good shape. But it seems that the HDD rule that you can
> just set a drive on the shelf for a decade (ditto with other magnetic
> media) does not necessarily carry over to SSD.
>
Yes. NAND is just a bunch of small capacitors that decay over time. The bit
error rate increases following the arrhenius law. The ECC that goes along
with NAND is paired to allow NAND that's almost worn out to still retain
data for {3 months/1 year} given its expected bit error rate when it's
almost worn out when programmed, coupled with the expected decay during the
specified retention time.
Also note I said "at 20C." The acceleration effect can be quite pronounced
should the data center suffer some catastrophic event that leaves it
without power in a super hot environment for weeks or months. At ~70C the
acceleration factor can be as high as 30-90x, which can render enterprise
drives not reliable after a few days baking at high temperatures.
Brand new NAND, on the other hand, typically has retention capabilities
measured in years or tens of years. It's the wear and tear of use that
makes it less reliable, often much less reliable. And the multi level per
cell technologies are much worse than the single level per cell. It's one
reason that the smaller number of bits per cell NAND tends to last longer
than larger bits per cell, all other things being equal. The smaller
process sizes also were less reliable since they could store fewer
electrons (sometimes as few as a dozen or two per state). 3D NAND was so
much better because it could grow vertically, allowing NAND manufacturers
to return to larger process sizes and still increase density, also giving
better endurance for a time...
Warner
Re: The best hard drives??
> On Nov 18, 2020, at 5:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > Tangential to this, I've long wondered about some things relating to > SSDs. Are there any solid figures on their retention period after years > of being unpowered? > > The reason I ask is that I've long been in the habit of simply shelving > an old hard drive when I upgrade or replace a system. I've got hard > drives that still work that hail back to the days of OS/2 1.1; some > larger ones go back to the 1970s. You should be able to find the answer in the drive specs. As I understand it, there are two rather different ranges of answer depending on whether you're looking at an enterprise class drive, which is optimized for high speed and large total amount of data written, vs. a consumer drive. The power-off retention spec is much shorter for the enterprise drives. I forgot the numbers; I vaguely remember it being less than a year. If the drive has power it will do something analogous to DRAM refresh to keep the bits in good shape. But it seems that the HDD rule that you can just set a drive on the shelf for a decade (ditto with other magnetic media) does not necessarily carry over to SSD. paul
Re: The best hard drives??
On 11/18/20 4:45 PM, mazzi...@tin.it wrote: > https://www.elinfor.com/article/E/l/Electron%20and%20temperature%20diagram.jpg > > In theory. > In any case it would not be wise to keep an ssd unpowered for various years. Yech. So in, say, 5 years, you can call it "toast"? --Chuck
RE: The best hard drives??
https://www.elinfor.com/article/E/l/Electron%20and%20temperature%20diagram.jpg In theory. In any case it would not be wise to keep an ssd unpowered for various years. -Original Message- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 11:57 PM To: Steven M Jones via cctalk Subject: Re: The best hard drives?? Tangential to this, I've long wondered about some things relating to SSDs. Are there any solid figures on their retention period after years of being unpowered? The reason I ask is that I've long been in the habit of simply shelving an old hard drive when I upgrade or replace a system. I've got hard drives that still work that hail back to the days of OS/2 1.1; some larger ones go back to the 1970s. --Chuck
Re: The best hard drives??
Chuck, I am concerned about SSDs because thy can only be written to a limited number of times. Spinning platters have unlimited write cycles barring a hardware or electronics failure. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 11/18/2020 4:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Tangential to this, I've long wondered about some things relating to SSDs. Are there any solid figures on their retention period after years of being unpowered? The reason I ask is that I've long been in the habit of simply shelving an old hard drive when I upgrade or replace a system. I've got hard drives that still work that hail back to the days of OS/2 1.1; some larger ones go back to the 1970s. --Chuck
Re: The best hard drives??
Tangential to this, I've long wondered about some things relating to SSDs. Are there any solid figures on their retention period after years of being unpowered? The reason I ask is that I've long been in the habit of simply shelving an old hard drive when I upgrade or replace a system. I've got hard drives that still work that hail back to the days of OS/2 1.1; some larger ones go back to the 1970s. --Chuck
Re: The best hard drives?? (joke)
On 11/17/2020 7:09 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 11/17/20 8:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Most "Merikens" just let the bank do the conversion when they buy from overseas. On 11/17/20 8:03 PM, Liam Proven wrote: Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise for using that nickname. :-( On Tue, 17 Nov 2020, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: Don't feel bad us "Merikens" tend to be thick skinned. Time for one of my favorites. Question: How do you describe someone who speaks three languages? Answer: Trilingual Question: How do you describe someone who speaks two languages? Answer: Bilingual Question: How do you describe someone who speaks one language? Answer: American Most of us "merkens" haven't truly mastered one language. Well, we did settle on one of the most ambiguous and confusing languages in the world!! bill Austrailan? Runs...
Re: The best hard drives??
On 11/16/20 7:27 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: In the opinions of you experts out there considering reliability being number one on the list with speed be number two on the list what would you folks consider to be the best SATA drives on the market? Not an expert, but I'm as dependent on spinning rust as everybody else... HGST has gotten my vote and a considerable amount of my money over the years. I favored their 2.5" IDE and then SATA drives for ages, back to before they bought the business from IBM. BackBlaze reporting was a factor in switching to HGST/Toshiba 3.5" 3TB drives many years ago from Seagate, when Toshiba was producing the HGST design after some complicated deal splitting up HGST's product lines. More recently I upgraded my main array to HGST He8 drives, and picked up a box of NOS 600GB 2.5" SAS drives for system disks. All of these are used in ZFS raidz2 setups in HP rackmount servers/JBODs 2-3 versions behind current. --S.
Re: The best hard drives??
Paul, You are entirely correct when it comes to temperature. Even ten or 20 degrees F can severely shorten the life of a HDD. It looks like I will be getting HGST drives even though I have had some difficulties with them. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! I don't have much to offer; my experience with enterprise class HDDs is mostly SAS (unless you go way back over 10 years). I didn't even know that such a thing as "enterprise class SATA" exists. One caution: I can't point to any manufacturer as "always good" or "always bad". The reality is that drive design is an incredibly hairy job, and small issues can appear in a given model to mess up the reliability of a particular design. Sometimes those design issues don't appear until some time after release. In other words, the fact that brand X has really good 4 TB drives doesn't necessarily tell you much about their 8 TB drives. Conversely, if brand Y had a bad implementation of 3 TB drives, that probably doesn't carry over to later models (not even later models in the same size, let alone in different sizes). If you run your drives in a well cooled enclosure, that will help. I've seen some drives that became problematic when run at the high end of their temperature specs, as might happen in high powered servers or in storage arrays with lots of drives in a small enclosure. Some failure modes are related to temperature, and if your drives are well below the spec limit that will help. Conversely, do pay attention to HDD temperature specs. Those numbers should be taken seriously. A lot of electronics can be run moderately over temperature without serious consequences, but the mechanics of hard drives are often far less forgiving. paul
Re: The best hard drives??
> On Nov 18, 2020, at 4:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > On Wed, 18 Nov 2020, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: Do you think that we can get back to the original question?? >>> Knowing this list, that won't happen. >> >> HGST! > > I apologize to Al for S/N ratio. > > I honestly have little or nothing to offer, but appreciate reading it - > lately I have had need of a bunch of 2.5" SATA drives for my Seagatre > GoFlex-TV video streamers, so I have been shucking (thanks for filling me in > on the correct term!) Seagate 2TB Backup Plus externals. > > I am pleased that 2TB SSD is now avaailable. > > > But, I will now try some of the HGST 2.5" SATA drives. I don't have much to offer; my experience with enterprise class HDDs is mostly SAS (unless you go way back over 10 years). I didn't even know that such a thing as "enterprise class SATA" exists. One caution: I can't point to any manufacturer as "always good" or "always bad". The reality is that drive design is an incredibly hairy job, and small issues can appear in a given model to mess up the reliability of a particular design. Sometimes those design issues don't appear until some time after release. In other words, the fact that brand X has really good 4 TB drives doesn't necessarily tell you much about their 8 TB drives. Conversely, if brand Y had a bad implementation of 3 TB drives, that probably doesn't carry over to later models (not even later models in the same size, let alone in different sizes). If you run your drives in a well cooled enclosure, that will help. I've seen some drives that became problematic when run at the high end of their temperature specs, as might happen in high powered servers or in storage arrays with lots of drives in a small enclosure. Some failure modes are related to temperature, and if your drives are well below the spec limit that will help. Conversely, do pay attention to HDD temperature specs. Those numbers should be taken seriously. A lot of electronics can be run moderately over temperature without serious consequences, but the mechanics of hard drives are often far less forgiving. paul
Re: The best hard drives??
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: Do you think that we can get back to the original question?? Knowing this list, that won't happen. HGST! I apologize to Al for S/N ratio. I honestly have little or nothing to offer, but appreciate reading it - lately I have had need of a bunch of 2.5" SATA drives for my Seagatre GoFlex-TV video streamers, so I have been shucking (thanks for filling me in on the correct term!) Seagate 2TB Backup Plus externals. I am pleased that 2TB SSD is now avaailable. But, I will now try some of the HGST 2.5" SATA drives. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: The best hard drives??
Do you think that we can get back to the original question?? Knowing this list, that won't happen. HGST! -- : Ethan O'Toole
Re: The best hard drives??
On 11/18/20 8:57 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: Do you think that we can get back to the original question?? Knowing this list, that won't happen.
Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives??
Most of us "merkens" haven't truly mastered one language. On Wed, 18 Nov 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: I was very surprised to discover a couple of years ago that many in the USA pronounce "squirrel" as "skwerl". My surprise was subsequently pushed to its limits when I discovered that the 'L' in 'solder' has become silent and it is now commonly pronounced "sodder". And the machines that Calcomp made (570, etc.) were called "plodders" But yesterday, I discovered that the 'L' in words such as "palm", "balm" and "psalm" is _no longer_ silent and is actively pronounced in some regions of the US, and mere surprise was no longer adequate and I was forced to resort to astonishment. Nobody around here will use Worcestershire sauce, because they are afraid to even try to pronounce it. For a while, I lived near "Bawlmer" (Baltimore) (The most significant landmark is the B R O M O S E L T Z E R clock - what time is it when both hands are on 'O's?) OB_ON_Topic: That was the origin of the Seequa Chameleon, the only computer [that I know of] to come with 3.25" drives (that Dysan had bet the company on. As part of that "bet", for a very brief time, all of the most major software packages were available on 3.25" disks!) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: The best hard drives??
Hello all, Do you think that we can get back to the original question?? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 11/18/2020 10:49 AM, Todd Goodman via cctalk wrote: At least you didn't call us all "Merkins"... On 11/17/2020 8:03 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 at 15:36, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: Most "Merikens" just let the bank do the conversion when they buy from overseas. Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise for using that nickname. :-(
Re: The best hard drives??
On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 11:49:44AM -0500, Todd Goodman via cctalk wrote: > At least you didn't call us all "Merkins"... I've done that and yes before you ask I know what it means. *whistles innocently* _ - d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://www.db.net/~db
Re: The best hard drives??
At least you didn't call us all "Merkins"... On 11/17/2020 8:03 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 at 15:36, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: Most "Merikens" just let the bank do the conversion when they buy from overseas. Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise for using that nickname. :-(
Re: The best hard drives??
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 17:15, Diane Bruce wrote: > > My expat FIL was from Lancs. Good part is I learned how to make a decent pot > of tea. The bad is, I couldn't understand him half the time. Being from Lancashire myself, I can't see the problem, but the rest of the UK regards us as impenetrable. Prime example: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6u0reg Discussion: https://www.goodiesruleok.com/articles.php?id=17 -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: The best hard drives??
On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 01:02:39PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 02:53, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Most of us "merkens" haven't truly mastered one language. ... > "balm" and "psalm" is _no longer_ silent and is actively pronounced in > some regions of the US, and mere surprise was no longer adequate and I > was forced to resort to astonishment. My expat FIL was from Lancs. Good part is I learned how to make a decent pot of tea. The bad is, I couldn't understand him half the time. I also couldn't understand half the time the Newfie working for me years ago. If you pronounce the 't' in Ottawa you aren't from here. And let's not even mention that Rhotic R that is missing in Burma in some dialects. Accents are weird and amusing at times. :-) -- - d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://www.db.net/~db
Re: The best hard drives??
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 04:21, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote: > > On Nov 17, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk > mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote: > > Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise > for using that nickname. :-( > > Liam, …. does it actually make it better that you were posting to the wrong > list? No, it doesn't. :-( -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: The best hard drives??
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 02:53, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Most of us "merkens" haven't truly mastered one language. I was very surprised to discover a couple of years ago that many in the USA pronounce "squirrel" as "skwerl". My surprise was subsequently pushed to its limits when I discovered that the 'L' in 'solder' has become silent and it is now commonly pronounced "sodder". But yesterday, I discovered that the 'L' in words such as "palm", "balm" and "psalm" is _no longer_ silent and is actively pronounced in some regions of the US, and mere surprise was no longer adequate and I was forced to resort to astonishment. -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: The best hard drives??
On Nov 17, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote: Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise for using that nickname. :-( Liam, …. does it actually make it better that you were posting to the wrong list? I say this without rancor because generally you are right about our financial (and other) self-centeredness, I have to admit it. Heck, I’m from Texas, and *we* do it to the rest of the United States - to say nothing of furriners. But one of ‘murikas biggest problems right now may stem at least partly from people referring, within their "in-crowd", to the "out-crowd" in a disparaging manner. Our political system is veering rapidly from a functional democracy (1) to a non-functional democracy (2) because of this. I strongly suspect almost nobody in either leading political party today would give me anything more than a blank look if I quoted to them the last lines of our Pledge of Allegiance: “one nation …. **indivisible**, with liberty and justice **for all**.” (double emphasis added). Even within our own borders, we can find plenty of reasons to disagree *without* having resort to stereotyping nicknames. And yet, every other word in a political discussion these days is emotionally loaded. Not that it’s a huge deal, but, just for a while, it might be worth your consideration to think whether a nickname you don’t want to use in one group, for fear of offending, is a great idea to use in a different group. Echo chambers and internet bubbles being what they are, setting a trend of tolerance and respect for outsiders could do a lot of good these days. All, sorry for the decidedly off-topic post, (figurative) freshly healing eyeball scars from watching the debates leading up to our recent election. ——— (1) The old-fashioned New England Town Hall meeting. Everyone gets their turn to speak and is listened to, arguments happen but so does compromise, and by the end of the meeting a vote is hardly necessary because the best compromise solution has become obvious to all. (2) per Ambrose Bierce in “The Devil’s Dictionary”: Three wolves and a Sheep sitting down to decide what’s for dinner.
Re: The best hard drives??
On 11/17/20 8:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Most "Merikens" just let the bank do the conversion when they buy from overseas. On 11/17/20 8:03 PM, Liam Proven wrote: Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise for using that nickname. :-( On Tue, 17 Nov 2020, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: Don't feel bad us "Merikens" tend to be thick skinned. Time for one of my favorites. Question: How do you describe someone who speaks three languages? Answer: Trilingual Question: How do you describe someone who speaks two languages? Answer: Bilingual Question: How do you describe someone who speaks one language? Answer: American Most of us "merkens" haven't truly mastered one language. Well, we did settle on one of the most ambiguous and confusing languages in the world!! bill
Re: The best hard drives??
Most "Merikens" just let the bank do the conversion when they buy from overseas. On 11/17/20 8:03 PM, Liam Proven wrote: Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise for using that nickname. :-( On Tue, 17 Nov 2020, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: Don't feel bad us "Merikens" tend to be thick skinned. Time for one of my favorites. Question: How do you describe someone who speaks three languages? Answer:Trilingual Question: How do you describe someone who speaks two languages? Answer:Bilingual Question: How do you describe someone who speaks one language? Answer:American Most of us "merkens" haven't truly mastered one language.
Re: The best hard drives??
On 11/17/20 8:03 PM, Liam Proven wrote: On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 at 15:36, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: Most "Merikens" just let the bank do the conversion when they buy from overseas. Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise for using that nickname. :-( Don't feel bad us "Merikens" tend to be thick skinned. Time for one of my favorites. Question: How do you describe someone who speaks three languages? Answer:Trilingual Question: How do you describe someone who speaks two languages? Answer:Bilingual Question: How do you describe someone who speaks one language? Answer:American bill
Re: The best hard drives??
On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 at 15:36, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Most "Merikens" just let the bank do the conversion when they buy > from overseas. Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise for using that nickname. :-( -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
RE: The best hard drives??
> > HGST. 4TB seem really good. > > or the equivalent Toshiba > > 4TB Hitachi drives have been REALLY reliable for me. 3rd (or fourth that). I have 20 of them in my NAS. Great drives. Seagate enterprise drives have been good to me as well... but those are from a different era when Seagate made quality HW and had the warranty to match. -Ali
Re: The best hard drives??
On 11/16/20 9:37 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: HGST. 4TB seem really good. or the equivalent Toshiba 4TB Hitachi drives have been REALLY reliable for me.
Re: The best hard drives??
On Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:27:45 -0600 Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Hello all, > In the opinions of you experts out there considering reliability > being number one on the list with speed be number two on the list what > would you folks consider to be the best SATA drives on the market? > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! I find the drive stats of a major cloud vendor to be very helpful. AFAIK, Backblaze is the only vendor that publishes their results quarterly: https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backblaze-hard-drive-stats-q3-2020/ Cheers! Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
Re: The best hard drives??
On 11/17/20 8:54 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 at 10:26, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: Five MyBooks bought 18 months ago had debranded He8 disks in there: very nice. The three Elements a few months back have (non-SMR) WD Reds in them, which is OK. Three more are supposedly turning up tomorrow. Oh blast, I wish I had known then... It also turns out that £1 ≈ €1 ≈ $1. Close, but no cigar. I just bought something from Europe 3 days ago. Exchange rate: $ 1 USD = € 0.8111 EUR Indeed so. Sadly, most Merkins don't know this and wail about not understanding Weird Forrin Money. Most "Merikens" just let the bank do the conversion when they buy from overseas. bill
Re: The best hard drives??
On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 at 10:26, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > Five MyBooks bought 18 months ago had debranded He8 disks in there: very nice. > The three Elements a few months back have (non-SMR) WD Reds in them, which is > OK. Three more are supposedly turning up tomorrow. Oh blast, I wish I had known then... > It also turns out that £1 ≈ €1 ≈ $1. Indeed so. Sadly, most Merkins don't know this and wail about not understanding Weird Forrin Money. -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
RE: The best hard drives??
Interesting read, What is your opinion of the Seagate exos 7e8 units ? (and does SED make any difference in ensuring a bit more quality of the platters) -Original Message- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Corlett via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 10:27 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The best hard drives?? On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 12:37:23AM -0500, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: [...] > HGST. 4TB seem really good. I have a half-dozen of those in raidz2 on my workstation and can confirm. HGST disks are good enough that WD bought them, declared them to be so good that they are clearly Enterprise drives, and doubled the price overnight. Which is why I stopped at six. The current wheeze is to "shuck" (remove the internal disk from) externals such as the WD Elements and MyBook. They'll contain the worst of whatever happens to be in stock at WD and the units up to 6TB are therefore to be avoided -- in particular, you will get atrocious DM-SMR disks or other consumer-grade junk -- but 8TB and above will get you something decent. The downside is that they nobble the firmware slightly to have aggressive powerdown and other tweaks to suit the intended use cases of external USB disks. The upside is that the hardware is the same. Well, another downside is that you have to spend a few minutes carefully cracking open the cases without breaking the tabs so that they can be reassembled in case the disks need to be RMAd. We've all got spudgers, right? (You can also shuck Seagates, of course, but then you end up with a terrible Seagate. Lacie and Intenso externals will also contain nasty Seagate disks. Good Seagates exist, but are expensive enough that you might as well get SAS disks and be done with it. I'm still running a (dwindling) fleet of shucked 2TB Seagates from a decade ago when they didn't yet suck.) Five MyBooks bought 18 months ago had debranded He8 disks in there: very nice. The three Elements a few months back have (non-SMR) WD Reds in them, which is OK. Three more are supposedly turning up tomorrow. I'm generally getting 8TB disks for €120-140 each from either amazon.de or amazon.nl. Sometimes the best prices only appear when they're on backorder and then they randomly turn up a month or two later after I've forgotten I've ordered them, but that's fine for my needs. It beats paying €300 full retail for the same disk just so I can have it sooner. The shucking landscape does shift over time as shown by me getting "only" Reds in the last batch instead of He8s previously. If you need a disk in several years time you should do a bit of research and double-check before taking this advice lest WD have started doing a DM-SMR line of 8TB disks specially for these enclosures. It also turns out that £1 ≈ €1 ≈ $1.
Re: The best hard drives??
On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 12:37:23AM -0500, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: [...] > HGST. 4TB seem really good. I have a half-dozen of those in raidz2 on my workstation and can confirm. HGST disks are good enough that WD bought them, declared them to be so good that they are clearly Enterprise drives, and doubled the price overnight. Which is why I stopped at six. The current wheeze is to "shuck" (remove the internal disk from) externals such as the WD Elements and MyBook. They'll contain the worst of whatever happens to be in stock at WD and the units up to 6TB are therefore to be avoided -- in particular, you will get atrocious DM-SMR disks or other consumer-grade junk -- but 8TB and above will get you something decent. The downside is that they nobble the firmware slightly to have aggressive powerdown and other tweaks to suit the intended use cases of external USB disks. The upside is that the hardware is the same. Well, another downside is that you have to spend a few minutes carefully cracking open the cases without breaking the tabs so that they can be reassembled in case the disks need to be RMAd. We've all got spudgers, right? (You can also shuck Seagates, of course, but then you end up with a terrible Seagate. Lacie and Intenso externals will also contain nasty Seagate disks. Good Seagates exist, but are expensive enough that you might as well get SAS disks and be done with it. I'm still running a (dwindling) fleet of shucked 2TB Seagates from a decade ago when they didn't yet suck.) Five MyBooks bought 18 months ago had debranded He8 disks in there: very nice. The three Elements a few months back have (non-SMR) WD Reds in them, which is OK. Three more are supposedly turning up tomorrow. I'm generally getting 8TB disks for €120-140 each from either amazon.de or amazon.nl. Sometimes the best prices only appear when they're on backorder and then they randomly turn up a month or two later after I've forgotten I've ordered them, but that's fine for my needs. It beats paying €300 full retail for the same disk just so I can have it sooner. The shucking landscape does shift over time as shown by me getting "only" Reds in the last batch instead of He8s previously. If you need a disk in several years time you should do a bit of research and double-check before taking this advice lest WD have started doing a DM-SMR line of 8TB disks specially for these enclosures. It also turns out that £1 ≈ €1 ≈ $1.
Re: The best hard drives??
On Mon, Nov 16, 2020, 10:37 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >In the opinions of you experts out there considering reliability > being > > number one on the list with speed be number two on the list what would > you > > folks consider to be the best SATA drives on the market? > > GOD Bless and Thanks, > > rich! > > HGST. 4TB seem really good. > > You can also see what backblaze stats currently says. > All the HGST Helium drives are quite good. The 6TB and 8TB are the most reliable, with the 10TB and 12TB being just barely less reliable (measurablely less, but only just). All of these models much better than the non helium drives (I think the 4TB is not Helium, but still quite good). They are almost in the same class as SSDs for reliability, at least in well regulated environments. Warner -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > >
Re: The best hard drives??
In the opinions of you experts out there considering reliability being number one on the list with speed be number two on the list what would you folks consider to be the best SATA drives on the market? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! HGST. 4TB seem really good. You can also see what backblaze stats currently says. -- : Ethan O'Toole
The best hard drives??
Hello all, In the opinions of you experts out there considering reliability being number one on the list with speed be number two on the list what would you folks consider to be the best SATA drives on the market? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich!
