Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022, it was written Have you tried Misumi? The only problem I had was that you have to be VAT registered. I had a friend order for me. Yes, and that is exactly the problem. Christian
RE: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
> Have you tried Misumi? The only problem I had was that you have to be > VAT > registered. I had a friend order for me. > > https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/223000860382/ > > I used the 150 mm / 6mm variety and as far as I can tell it works > nicely. I > have been running a tape in a Tektronix 4051 for some time and haven > seen > any shedding. Not daily exactly but 20 times over half a year. I second the Misumi brand. I haven't seen any of the issues mentioned on this thread with those bands. Of course I am only a hobbyist so not putting them through any crazy paces. I mainly use them for the 5100 and 5110. They are significantly more expensive then the Amazon mix bag ones but may be worth it. -Ali
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
> > Well, both the SF-7000 as well as the SF-6500 (the size for QIC > cartridges) are de facto unavailable/out of stock/whatever. > The only alternative that I could find are the Mobilon Bands from > Nisshinbo. But same story, I can't order them, there is no store that I > could do that. > Have you tried Misumi? The only problem I had was that you have to be VAT registered. I had a friend order for me. https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/223000860382/ I used the 150 mm / 6mm variety and as far as I can tell it works nicely. I have been running a tape in a Tektronix 4051 for some time and haven seen any shedding. Not daily exactly but 20 times over half a year. /Mattis > Christian >
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
On Thu, 20 Jan 2022, it was written On Jan 20, 2022, at 00:23, Christian Corti via cctech wrote: What bands did you use/buy? I ask because the Baumgartens Plastibands aren't available in the required size (as if they are not produced any more). I bought the assorted sizes pack (SF-7000, I think). Each pack had maybe 10 of the green ones I use in QIC tape carts, so I bought multiple packs and put the rest of the bands into household use. Well, both the SF-7000 as well as the SF-6500 (the size for QIC cartridges) are de facto unavailable/out of stock/whatever. The only alternative that I could find are the Mobilon Bands from Nisshinbo. But same story, I can't order them, there is no store that I could do that. Christian
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
> On Jan 20, 2022, at 00:23, Christian Corti via cctech > wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Jan 2022, Jonathan Chapman wrote: >> Just as a follow-up, I retensioned and read both tapes with clear bands this >> morning, and they're fine. Since they were parked, there shouldn't have been >> anything important there, and it looks like the removed oxide is staying on >> the band. > > What bands did you use/buy? I ask because the Baumgartens Plastibands aren't > available in the required size (as if they are not produced any more). > I bought the assorted sizes pack (SF-7000, I think). Each pack had maybe 10 of the green ones I use in QIC tape carts, so I bought multiple packs and put the rest of the bands into household use. alan
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022, Jonathan Chapman wrote: Just as a follow-up, I retensioned and read both tapes with clear bands this morning, and they're fine. Since they were parked, there shouldn't have been anything important there, and it looks like the removed oxide is staying on the band. What bands did you use/buy? I ask because the Baumgartens Plastibands aren't available in the required size (as if they are not produced any more). Christian
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
Just as a follow-up, I retensioned and read both tapes with clear bands this morning, and they're fine. Since they were parked, there shouldn't have been anything important there, and it looks like the removed oxide is staying on the band. Thanks, Jonathan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Wednesday, January 19th, 2022 at 10:46, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/18/22 22:32, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > On 1/18/22 8:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > > > You should be warned that Plastibands > > > > > > do deteriorate after a year or so--I have a package of them that cannot > > > > > > be stretched without breaking. > > > > Do you keep them in sealed bags? I keep mine in a zip-lock and the ones > > > > that I got a couple years ago stretch just fine. (I checked after I saw > > > > this.) > > No, I didn't--I did keep them in a dark, cool place, however. Now, I > > keep bands in my freezer. > > --Chuck
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
On 1/18/22 22:32, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/18/22 8:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> You should be warned that Plastibands >> do deteriorate after a year or so--I have a package of them that cannot >> be stretched without breaking. >> > > Do you keep them in sealed bags? I keep mine in a zip-lock and the ones > that I got a couple years ago stretch just fine. (I checked after I saw > this.) No, I didn't--I did keep them in a dark, cool place, however. Now, I keep bands in my freezer. --Chuck
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
On 1/18/22 8:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: You should be warned that Plastibands do deteriorate after a year or so--I have a package of them that cannot be stretched without breaking. Do you keep them in sealed bags? I keep mine in a zip-lock and the ones that I got a couple years ago stretch just fine. (I checked after I saw this.)
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
On 1/18/22 11:38, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jan 18, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> My opinion is that if you're trying to use DC carts for archival >> storage, you should have your (tape) head examined. >> >> Not archival storage, just day-to-day operation on old stuff, like >> Sun3/Sun4, AT UNIX PC, etc. > > Can you do tape operations over TCP/IP to a machine with a better drive, or a > VTL? On VMS, the last tape backups I did on a physical box, were to a > virtual tape drive on a SIMH/VAX system. If this is a SCSI QIC drive, I'd suggest moving to DLT, 8mm or even DDS. None of these suffer from the "broken bad" problem. SCSI tape drives as a class, are pretty much interchangeable as there's an ANSI spec for the command set. If it's a QIC-02 interface, you might want to look into emulation using an MCU. QIC-02 interface is stupid simple and any moderately capable MCU should be able to generate the required signals. You can probably fit the contents of every QIC tape that you own on a single SD card. QIC-36 is going to be a bit more difficult, but there were (and maybe still are) QIC-36-to-QIC-02 bridge boards around. My .02 for whatever its depreciated value is worth. --Chuck
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
> On Jan 18, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk > wrote: > >> My opinion is that if you're trying to use DC carts for archival > storage, you should have your (tape) head examined. > > Not archival storage, just day-to-day operation on old stuff, like Sun3/Sun4, > AT UNIX PC, etc. Can you do tape operations over TCP/IP to a machine with a better drive, or a VTL? On VMS, the last tape backups I did on a physical box, were to a virtual tape drive on a SIMH/VAX system. Zane
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
On Jan 18, 2022, at 8:58 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >> As someone that has worked with computer tapes for nearly 40 years, I have >> to question the sanity of this. These > tapes are *HOW* old? What was their intended lifespan? While we all like to > keep our hardware as original as possible, does it really make sense to try > to run systems in this day and age with QIC tapes? > > Well, you gotta use something to back up those ESDI drives. > > I'm finding the TK50's and TK70's to be pretty good, the big massive problem > with them is those two pulleys having the grease dried up. Since one of them > runs the tape tachometer they need to spin freely and smoothly. > > Count the turns on the top bolt as you remove it, take off the pulleys, > lubricate or replace the bearings, reassemble, good for another 20 years or > so. > > QIC Yeah that's not going to work well. Times change. I’m also not using MFM or ESDI drives. I converted my Q-Bus HW to SCSI 20+ years ago. When I get it back up and running, I plan to convert it to SCSI2SD. OTOH, I am trying, for some insane reason to get a DSSI system going. I started converting my SCSI based DEC HW to SCSI2SD last summer. Having said that, that’s good news on the TK50’s and TK70’s, I have a couple boxes in my office (so somewhat nicely stored) that I need to read, in my nonexistent free time. My plan has been to buy a refurbished SBB that will read them. I’m more likely to trust the TK50 in my PDP-11 than the 4mm DAT. I’ve read 30 year old 9-track tapes on production hardware, and I’ve read very old TK50’s (as well as other DLT-style tapes). Things like QIC, 8mm, and 4mm, I try my best to avoid on production systems. Zane
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
On 1/18/22 11:21 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: I don't do a reinstall of SunOS every day, though! Fair enough. If I had a process where something might fail in between uses, I'd augment the process to re-write the image to a (new instance of) tape before I try to use it. Yeah, it's not like irreplaceable data is being lost. But when they fail, you have to at least re-band another tape, and with this stuff pulling oxide off, probably clean the drive too. And of course write a new tape out. I get that. I was actually thinking of something more dastardly like a process that generates data as a one and done. As such the entire process that generates the data needs to be re-done. Extrapolate backwards /after/ doing the physical tape maintenance. "Tape" is I think what most people call them :P Ya. But "tape" is not descriptive in my opinion, especially when you have other types of tape; DLT, DAT, 9-track, etc. ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
> However, "couple (of) months" seems incongruent with "day-to-day". I don't do a reinstall of SunOS every day, though! > I am assuming that the day-to-day operation to mean that the source data > is still accessible on the source system. As such, it's probably simply > a matter of annoyance when a QIC* fails and you must re-do the process > that was using it. Yeah, it's not like irreplaceable data is being lost. But when they fail, you have to at least re-band another tape, and with this stuff pulling oxide off, probably clean the drive too. And of course write a new tape out. > *Can I use /just/ QIC as a proper name or should I say /QIC/ /cartridge/ > analogous to VIN number? "Tape" is I think what most people call them :P Thanks, Jonathan
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
On 1/18/22 11:09 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: Not archival storage, just day-to-day operation on old stuff, like Sun3/Sun4, AT UNIX PC, etc. Okay. I can see that. However, "couple (of) months" seems incongruent with "day-to-day". I am assuming that the day-to-day operation to mean that the source data is still accessible on the source system. As such, it's probably simply a matter of annoyance when a QIC* fails and you must re-do the process that was using it. *Can I use /just/ QIC as a proper name or should I say /QIC/ /cartridge/ analogous to VIN number? Works well enough for my needs :) I've got a small stack of QICs I use primarily with the Suns, they are reliable enough. Again, we're not storing launch codes on these or shooting them to the moon or something, I just want tape bands that don't destroy tape. ACK -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
> I wince at the idea of running with QIC tape. But my experience is with > QIC-80 tapes of the '90s Yes, small ftape QIC-80s were certainly in the "not great" category! Thanks, Jonathan
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
> My opinion is that if you're trying to use DC carts for archival storage, you should have your (tape) head examined. Not archival storage, just day-to-day operation on old stuff, like Sun3/Sun4, AT UNIX PC, etc. > As someone that has worked with computer tapes for nearly 40 years, I have to > question the sanity of this. These > tapes are HOW old? What was their intended lifespan? While we all > like to keep our hardware as original as possible, does it really make > sense to try to run systems in this day and age with QIC tapes? Works well enough for my needs :) I've got a small stack of QICs I use primarily with the Suns, they are reliable enough. Again, we're not storing launch codes on these or shooting them to the moon or something, I just want tape bands that don't destroy tape. Thanks, Jonathan
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
On 1/18/22 8:33 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: https://i.imgur.com/48EfOQG.jpg Ouch! With my luck, that would have been the index / start of tape marker rendering the rest of the tape mostly unusable. That's after sitting parked a couple months. Um I would naively think that would invalidate any test / concern unless it was specifically for the problem that you're describing. I have a Dysan doing it too. The Dysan had been re-banded with a boiled 3M band and run for years like that with no shedding. Is that belt or tape media? I (mis)took it to be tape media. I have another Dysan with a green Plastiband in it which is also fine, minimal/no shed. So, I think we may need to re-evaluate if the clear Amazon cheap "plastibands" are perhaps totally incompatible with tape. My naive understanding was that they were Good Enough™ to get data off of the tape as in one (or a few) last hurrah(s) for data recovery. (Comparing multiple reads.) I know, I know..."just use the band to get data off." But I want to *run* QICs without having to destroy them constantly. I wince at the idea of running with QIC tape. But my experience is with QIC-80 tapes of the '90s which were so unreliable as to be in the same category as AOL floppy disks during the late '90s around the transition to CD-ROMs. As in I would trust an AOL floppy disk to better hold my data for a week than I would a QIC-80 tape to hold data for a month, much less a year. ...and I didn't even trust an AOL floppy to go from computer to computer for 5 minutes. -- Talk about a race to the bottom for quality. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
As someone that has worked with computer tapes for nearly 40 years, I have to question the sanity of this. These tapes are *HOW* old? What was their intended lifespan? While we all like to keep our hardware as original as possible, does it really make sense to try to run systems in this day and age with QIC tapes? Well, you gotta use something to back up those ESDI drives. I'm finding the TK50's and TK70's to be pretty good, the big massive problem with them is those two pulleys having the grease dried up. Since one of them runs the tape tachometer they need to spin freely and smoothly. Count the turns on the top bolt as you remove it, take off the pulleys, lubricate or replace the bearings, reassemble, good for another 20 years or so. QIC Yeah that's not going to work well. Times change.
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
On 1/18/22 07:33, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > https://i.imgur.com/48EfOQG.jpg > > That's after sitting parked a couple months. I have a Dysan doing it too. The > Dysan had been re-banded with a boiled 3M band and run for years like that > with no shedding. I have another Dysan with a green Plastiband in it which is > also fine, minimal/no shed. So, I think we may need to re-evaluate if the > clear Amazon cheap "plastibands" are perhaps totally incompatible with tape. > > I know, I know..."just use the band to get data off." But I want to *run* > QICs without having to destroy them constantly. > Big difference here--Al and I are interested in getting the stuff off and tossing the cart afterwards. You should be warned that Plastibands do deteriorate after a year or so--I have a package of them that cannot be stretched without breaking. And I've got factory 3M carts with the original bands where the same thing has happened--it's just harder to see. To be clear (no pun intended), I wipe the clear ones down with isopropanol before installing. Regardless, they're all TPU. P.S. If you're interested in fun, try re-banding a TR-7 cart successfully. My opinion is that if you're trying to use DC carts for archival storage, you should have your (tape) head examined. It's an old, cheap (for the time) medium with a fatal design flaw. --Chuck
Re: WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
On Jan 18, 2022, at 7:33 AM, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote: > > I know, I know..."just use the band to get data off." But I want to *run* > QICs without having to destroy them constantly. As someone that has worked with computer tapes for nearly 40 years, I have to question the sanity of this. These tapes are *HOW* old? What was their intended lifespan? While we all like to keep our hardware as original as possible, does it really make sense to try to run systems in this day and age with QIC tapes? Can you emulate the tape device? Zane
WARNING: Clear QIC Tape Bands
https://i.imgur.com/48EfOQG.jpg That's after sitting parked a couple months. I have a Dysan doing it too. The Dysan had been re-banded with a boiled 3M band and run for years like that with no shedding. I have another Dysan with a green Plastiband in it which is also fine, minimal/no shed. So, I think we may need to re-evaluate if the clear Amazon cheap "plastibands" are perhaps totally incompatible with tape. I know, I know..."just use the band to get data off." But I want to *run* QICs without having to destroy them constantly. Thanks, Jonathan
