Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Jon Elson]

On 01/19/2017 09:30 AM, geneb wrote:


If there's only one mirror, he's missing most of it then.  
A Wide Angle Collimator (what they call the "single 
channel" displays) has a partially-reflective first 
surface mirror at a 45 degree angle (the beam splitter) 
and a special curved mirror directly in front of it.
Front, as in toward the front of the aircraft.  Yes, I'd 
forgotten about the beam splitter.  But, I'm sure he DOES 
have that, too.

The display is positioned above the beam splitter.
In his case, for mechanical reasons, he put the display 
below the beam splitter/curved mirror.
  The light path goes down from the crt, is reflected off 
the beam splitter into the mirror and then straight at the 
viewpoint for the user (passing through the beam splitter 
again). That process robs 50-75% of the light that goes 
into it from the CRT.  That's why WACs are really only 
good for night time visuals.


Well, once you are in the closed, dark environment, you 
could do daytime visuals but at reduced light levels, should 
be FINE for a home sim.



Take a look at the "Go Collimated or Go Home" link in my 
sig.  I designed a 737-sized one of those for a friend.  
He built it and uses it with FlightGear.


Ahh, yes, YOU are the guy with the F-15 front end!  Yes, we 
know OF you!

And, yes, FlightGear is completely amazing.

Jon

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[geneb]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:

Well, the aviation community is just INSANE over liability.  And, since the 
outfit that makes the wing marker lights gets sued many times when a light 
plane goes down, even though the cause was pilot error, engine failure, 
instrument failure, running out of fuel, etc. they STILL get sued.


So, I can imagine maybe some plane goes down, and they'd get sued because the 
pilot trained on an uncertified simulator that was cobbled together after a 
surplus purchase.


While I agree that aviation is fed on by lawyers, that wouldn't have been 
a reaons for Boeing's actions in this case.


The simulator would have had to have been re-certified by the FAA (and they 
might not have grandfathered it a 2nd time) in order for any pilot to have 
logged time in it.  No instructor pilot that's rated ATP or higher for 
that type would instruct on it without that certification.


It would be interesting to try if nothing else.  The LCD may not throw 
enough light out to make it readable in a WAC.  Not sure.
It would work FINE!  His sim was a box, so you were in quite dark conditions. 
Some LCDs can actually get pretty bright, and his CRT was not unusually 
bright.  So, I'm sure it would work fine.  These are SMALL mirrors, not for 
the giant wall-size displays, and direct-view.
So, the CRT is facing up, the mirror above it, and you just look into the 
mirror through about a 2' x 2' aperture.  Perfect for a home simulator.


If there's only one mirror, he's missing most of it then.  A Wide Angle 
Collimator (what they call the "single channel" displays) has a 
partially-reflective first surface mirror at a 45 degree angle (the beam 
splitter) and a special curved mirror directly in front of it.  The 
display is positioned above the beam splitter.  The light path goes down 
from the crt, is reflected off the beam splitter into the mirror and then 
straight at the viewpoint for the user (passing through the beam splitter 
again).  That process robs 50-75% of the light that goes into it from the 
CRT.  That's why WACs are really only good for night time visuals.


Here's an example of what a four channel WAC looks like:
http://flightweb.simpits.org/BehindTheScenes/737sim_page4.html

Take a look at the "Go Collimated or Go Home" link in my sig.  I designed 
a 737-sized one of those for a friend.  He built it and uses it with 
FlightGear.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

RE: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[William Maddox]

> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
> Guzis
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 9:09 AM
> ...
> I find it curious that what seems to be collected in the minicomputer area
> seems to be gear of major brands.
> 
> Does anyone collect Varian minis?
> Or General Automation?
> Or any one of the many non-DEC, HP, etc. minis?  Heck, I don't read much
> about DG minis  on this list--and they were a major force

I collect minor-brand scientific and industrial minis as well as DEC, DG,
and HP:  Varian 620/I and 620/L, GA SPC-12,  Computer Automation LSI-2 and
Alpha-16, Honeywell Series 16.   Also DG Nova stuff, including a couple of
complete systems.

--Bill

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Jon Elson]

On 01/18/2017 12:45 PM, geneb wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:



Wow, kind of surprised they were concerned about that.  
Especially a 727 sim, who the heck is still flying THOSE??


They're pretty common in South America and some 3rd world 
countries.  I suspect it was 90% Boeing being a dick and 
10% because they could.


Well, the aviation community is just INSANE over liability.  
And, since the outfit that makes the wing marker lights gets 
sued many times when a light plane goes down, even though 
the cause was pilot error, engine failure, instrument 
failure, running out of fuel, etc. they STILL get sued.


So, I can imagine maybe some plane goes down, and they'd get 
sued because the pilot trained on an uncertified simulator 
that was cobbled together after a surplus purchase.


A friend of mine got 4 mirrors out of Vital II sims, and 
has one on a large X-Y display.  He wrote a sim program 
that ran on a Data General Nova clone (he built it 
himself, not a commercial clone). It is no longer 
working, some stuff went up in smoke last time he turned 
it on.  But, would be great to put a giant LCD monitor on 
those mirrors and use it with FlightGear.


It would be interesting to try if nothing else.  The LCD 
may not throw enough light out to make it readable in a 
WAC.  Not sure.
It would work FINE!  His sim was a box, so you were in quite 
dark conditions.  Some LCDs can actually get pretty bright, 
and his CRT was not unusually bright.  So, I'm sure it would 
work fine.  These are SMALL mirrors, not for the giant 
wall-size displays, and direct-view.
So, the CRT is facing up, the mirror above it, and you just 
look into the mirror through about a 2' x 2' aperture.  
Perfect for a home simulator.


Jon

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[geneb]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:

Conductron-Missouri was an outfit that may have been started by ex-McDonnell 
people, and did a large portion of their business supplying electronic 
systems to McDonnell.  It was later bought by McDonnell, and became McDonnell 
Douglas Electronics Co.

Ahh, ok.

Wow, kind of surprised they were concerned about that.  Especially a 727 sim, 
who the heck is still flying THOSE??


They're pretty common in South America and some 3rd world countries.  I 
suspect it was 90% Boeing being a dick and 10% because they could.


A friend of mine got 4 mirrors out of Vital II sims, and has one on a large 
X-Y display.  He wrote a sim program that ran on a Data General Nova clone 
(he built it himself, not a commercial clone). It is no longer working, some 
stuff went up in smoke last time he turned it on.  But, would be great to put 
a giant LCD monitor on those mirrors and use it with FlightGear.


It would be interesting to try if nothing else.  The LCD may not throw 
enough light out to make it readable in a WAC.  Not sure.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Jon Elson]

On 01/18/2017 07:08 AM, geneb wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:


On 01/17/2017 01:50 PM, geneb wrote:


I used to work on a 727 flight simulator that used a 
Varian 620 to generate the visuals.  The display was 
capable of addressing 1024 points of light and that's 
how the runways and airport outline were drawn. Pretty 
neat stuff.  Here's some pics of the system that ran the 
sim:
http://flightweb.simpits.org/BehindTheScenes/727sim_page1.html 

Was that a McDonnell Vital system?  That's where the 
Varian I had came from. Vital II had stroke writing and 
variable beam width, ideal for painting the runway, 
stripes, numbers, etc.


It's a Vital I.  I don't recall a McDonnell branding 
though.  I _think_ the 727-100 sim was built by 
Conductron-Missouri, which was the same company that build 
the 737-200 that was located in the next room.


Conductron-Missouri was an outfit that may have been started 
by ex-McDonnell people, and did a large portion of their 
business supplying electronic systems to McDonnell.  It was 
later bought by McDonnell, and became McDonnell Douglas 
Electronics Co.


The sad thing is, both sims are gone.  Simulator Training 
went bankrupt due to the aviation industry disruption 
caused by 9/11. A guy from Boeing/Alteon showed up with a 
corporate credit card. I didn't have the resources to bid 
against him. :( The 727 went for $1200 and the $737 went
for $1500. Both sims were fully operational and both were 
purposefully destroyed after purchase.


Wow, kind of surprised they were concerned about that.  
Especially a 727 sim, who the heck is still flying THOSE??


A friend of mine got 4 mirrors out of Vital II sims, and has 
one on a large X-Y display.  He wrote a sim program that ran 
on a Data General Nova clone (he built it himself, not a 
commercial clone). It is no longer working, some stuff went 
up in smoke last time he turned it on.  But, would be great 
to put a giant LCD monitor on those mirrors and use it with 
FlightGear.


Jon

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[geneb]

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:


On 01/17/2017 01:50 PM, geneb wrote:


I used to work on a 727 flight simulator that used a Varian 620 to generate 
the visuals.  The display was capable of addressing 1024 points of light 
and that's how the runways and airport outline were drawn. Pretty neat 
stuff.  Here's some pics of the system that ran the sim:
http://flightweb.simpits.org/BehindTheScenes/727sim_page1.html 

Was that a McDonnell Vital system?  That's where the Varian I had came from. 
Vital II had stroke writing and variable beam width, ideal for painting the 
runway, stripes, numbers, etc.


It's a Vital I.  I don't recall a McDonnell branding though.  I _think_ 
the 727-100 sim was built by Conductron-Missouri, which was the same 
company that build the 737-200 that was located in the next room.



Yeah, I think the rack cabinet I have matches the one in your photo.


Nice!

The sad thing is, both sims are gone.  Simulator Training went bankrupt 
due to the aviation industry disruption caused by 9/11.  A guy from 
Boeing/Alteon showed up with a corporate credit card.  I didn't have 
the resources to bid against him. :( The 727 went for $1200 and the $737 went
for $1500. Both sims were fully operational and both were purposefully 
destroyed after purchase.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Christian Corti]

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, Chuck Guzis wrote:

I find it curious that what seems to be collected in the minicomputer
area seems to be gear of major brands.


Me too :-)


Does anyone collect Varian minis?


Yes! We have a couple of Varian 620/f (some with expansion boxes)


Or General Automation?


Yes!! We have an SPC-16/65 that I really would like to restore, but I lack 
a) all kind of documents/schematics/software and b) the memory board. I 
could probably build a replacement for the memory board if I had the 
technical documentation for the machine.
We also have the FPs and boards of two GA16-2?? (I know that someone has 
the CPU boxes and racks where these came from but I don't recall who it 
was).



Or any one of the many non-DEC, HP, etc. minis?  Heck, I don't read much
about DG minis  on this list--and they were a major force.


Dietz MINCAL 523; a micro-programmed 19 bit minicomputer with foil 
micro-/macroprogram ROM (micro and macro programs share the same 
address and data bus) and a mixture of sign/magnitude and twos-complement 
arithmetic. It was *great* fun to reverse enginere just *everything* from 
the confuse backplane wiring (no bus) to recreating the mnemonics and 
disassembling the monitor and microcode.


Christian

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Jon Elson]

On 01/17/2017 01:50 PM, geneb wrote:


I used to work on a 727 flight simulator that used a 
Varian 620 to generate the visuals.  The display was 
capable of addressing 1024 points of light and that's how 
the runways and airport outline were drawn. Pretty neat 
stuff.  Here's some pics of the system that ran the sim:
http://flightweb.simpits.org/BehindTheScenes/727sim_page1.html 



Was that a McDonnell Vital system?  That's where the Varian 
I had came from.  Vital II had stroke writing and variable 
beam width, ideal for painting the runway, stripes, numbers, 
etc.


Yeah, I think the rack cabinet I have matches the one in 
your photo.


Jon

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Pete Lancashire]

I had a DG Nova (guess one could call it a Nova 1) Loaned it to who I
though was a friend, he vanished one day. The Nova showed up at a
local surplus store but even though I had proof it was mine, I had the
release letter from the company I worked for and got it from, he would
not even sell it to me.

Had one maybe two unused development boards and an extender, and a few
tapes, one being BASIC.

Interesting instruction format

-pete

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 9:09 AM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> I find it curious that what seems to be collected in the minicomputer
> area seems to be gear of major brands.
>
> Does anyone collect Varian minis?
> Or General Automation?
> Or any one of the many non-DEC, HP, etc. minis?  Heck, I don't read much
> about DG minis  on this list--and they were a major force.
>
> --Chuck
>
>

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Paul Koning]

> On Jan 17, 2017, at 2:50 PM, geneb  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:
> 
>> On 01/17/2017 11:09 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>> I find it curious that what seems to be collected in the minicomputer
>>> area seems to be gear of major brands.
>>> Does anyone collect Varian minis?
>> I had a Varian 620F a long time ago.  It was a whole bunch of wire-wrap 
>> boards.  It sort of tried to work, but was very flaky.  I was able to store 
>> some words into the core memory, but it seemed like every couple minutes it 
>> would zero out a word or two (I guess it was failing to write back the 
>> contents after the destructive readout.)  Without schematics, it was 
>> impossible to do much about it.
> 
> I used to work on a 727 flight simulator that used a Varian 620 to generate 
> the visuals.  The display was capable of addressing 1024 points of light and 
> that's how the runways and airport outline were drawn. Pretty neat stuff.  
> Here's some pics of the system that ran the sim:
> http://flightweb.simpits.org/BehindTheScenes/727sim_page1.html

Nice.

I saw (but never used) a Varian 16 bit mini in college.  Forgot the model 
number; I used to have the handbook but it seems to have been lost.  It was 
used because of its microprogramming capabilities.  The control panel was 
unusual: lights and switches basically, but the switches were membrane 
push-buttons.  So the entire front panel was a smooth surface.

paul

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[geneb]

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, Jon Elson wrote:


On 01/17/2017 11:09 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

I find it curious that what seems to be collected in the minicomputer
area seems to be gear of major brands.

Does anyone collect Varian minis?
I had a Varian 620F a long time ago.  It was a whole bunch of wire-wrap 
boards.  It sort of tried to work, but was very flaky.  I was able to store 
some words into the core memory, but it seemed like every couple minutes it 
would zero out a word or two (I guess it was failing to write back the 
contents after the destructive readout.)  Without schematics, it was 
impossible to do much about it.


I used to work on a 727 flight simulator that used a Varian 620 to 
generate the visuals.  The display was capable of addressing 1024 points 
of light and that's how the runways and airport outline were drawn. 
Pretty neat stuff.  Here's some pics of the system that ran the sim:

http://flightweb.simpits.org/BehindTheScenes/727sim_page1.html

g.


--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

RE: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Jay West]

General automation - yes. I have a zebra 1750, 2820, and 3000.
Microdata M6000
I have lots of DG gear as well... but that's starting to get sent out here
and there :)

J

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 11:09 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you
own? [Tek 4132]

I find it curious that what seems to be collected in the minicomputer area
seems to be gear of major brands.

Does anyone collect Varian minis?
Or General Automation?
Or any one of the many non-DEC, HP, etc. minis?  Heck, I don't read much
about DG minis  on this list--and they were a major force.

--Chuck

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Al Kossow]

On 1/17/17 9:09 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> Does anyone collect Varian minis?
>

I had a few 620's, the most interesting was the 18-bit version.

No software to speak of for them. I even talked to the guy who ended up
supporting them down in LA when Sperry spit them out. The only thing he
had was a diagnostic tape.

Probably the most interesting Varian system I had was an integrated data
acquistion system they built with a fixed head disk and point plot display.
I'm hoping the person who bought it is able to save the software which in
theory is still in core an on the disk.

--

We have some software at CHM for the General Automation 18/30, which is a
little more interesting since it was very similar architecturally to the IBM
1800. The name comes from it being a cross between the 1800 and 1130.

--

I recovered some software for the Computer Automation museum a while ago
http://www.computer-automation-museum.org/ca/
don't know if there's been much activity there.

--

Primarily, it seems the activity has been centering around people working on
various simulators for minis in SIMH.

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2017-Jan-17, at 9:13 AM, william degnan wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
>> I find it curious that what seems to be collected in the minicomputer
>> area seems to be gear of major brands.
>> 
>> Does anyone collect Varian minis?
>> Or General Automation?
>> Or any one of the many non-DEC, HP, etc. minis?  Heck, I don't read much
>> about DG minis  on this list--and they were a major force.
>> 
>> --Chuck
>> 
>> 
> I think it's simply an availability thing ...I have manuals for a lot of
> the non DEC minis, have to settle for simH, where am I going to get a
> Varian?

Right here (satire):

www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-VARIAN-DATA-MACHINES-620-L-100-COMPUTER-620L100-620-L100-/311466122329

I'd love to collect also-ran minis, I find the variety and architectural 
variations and forgotten history interesting.
But as you say: availability. And then the peripherals and software to make 
complete systems are even rarer.
And documentation. 

And on the rare occasions when they do show up, nowadays you get silly prices 
like this one.
That unit has been on ebay for many months, maybe near or over a year now.
I think it started out at 10,000 or some such.

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Paul Koning]

> On Jan 17, 2017, at 12:13 PM, william degnan  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
>> I find it curious that what seems to be collected in the minicomputer
>> area seems to be gear of major brands.
>> 
>> Does anyone collect Varian minis?...
>> 
>> 
> I think it's simply an availability thing ...I have manuals for a lot of
> the non DEC minis, have to settle for simH, where am I going to get a
> Varian?

Yes, they are bound to be harder to find.  But with decent manuals you can add 
them to SIMH.  It's not that hard.  Then it becomes a matter of finding 
software.

Things seem to be worse yet with non-US computers.  You see very little mention 
of those, and (apart from BESM) nothing in SIMH.  UK computers get mentioned 
once in a while, other parts of Europe even less.  As a former Dutchman, I've 
wanted to find Philips computer documentation -- it seems to be non-existent.  
The first machine I did significant work on was a Philips PR8000; the grand 
total coverage of that machine on the WWW appears to be a one line entry in a 
book listing computers manufactured in the 1970s.  Similarly, I know Siemens 
made minicomputers, because I used a precision plotter driven by one of those 
-- a machine used around that time to draw postage stamp and paper money 
designs for the Dutch government.  Haven't seen that one either.

It may be that some of those computers aren't all that interesting, in the 
sense of not offering any unusual capabilities or architecture wrinkles.  But 
that's certainly not true for all of them; the PR8000, for example, has an 
approach to interrupts that's quite efficient and one I haven't seen since.

paul

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Jon Elson]

On 01/17/2017 11:09 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

I find it curious that what seems to be collected in the minicomputer
area seems to be gear of major brands.

Does anyone collect Varian minis?
I had a Varian 620F a long time ago.  It was a whole bunch 
of wire-wrap boards.  It sort of tried to work, but was very 
flaky.  I was able to store some words into the core memory, 
but it seemed like every couple minutes it would zero out a 
word or two (I guess it was failing to write back the 
contents after the destructive readout.)  Without 
schematics, it was impossible to do much about it.


Jon

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[william degnan]

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

> I find it curious that what seems to be collected in the minicomputer
> area seems to be gear of major brands.
>
> Does anyone collect Varian minis?
> Or General Automation?
> Or any one of the many non-DEC, HP, etc. minis?  Heck, I don't read much
> about DG minis  on this list--and they were a major force.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
I think it's simply an availability thing ...I have manuals for a lot of
the non DEC minis, have to settle for simH, where am I going to get a
Varian?

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Chuck Guzis]

I find it curious that what seems to be collected in the minicomputer
area seems to be gear of major brands.

Does anyone collect Varian minis?
Or General Automation?
Or any one of the many non-DEC, HP, etc. minis?  Heck, I don't read much
about DG minis  on this list--and they were a major force.

--Chuck

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 07:27:00PM -0600, Jay West wrote:
> Yes. Please do!
> 
> Pontus wrote...
> There is a system quite like it standing in the halls of the maths
> department here. I'll have to take a closer look next time I'm there.
> 

I'll go there on thursday. I suspect it will be anticlimactic, I think 
it's newer. But I'll take a picture, it's a neat setup.

/P

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Chuck Guzis]

 From: allison 
> 
> The 32016 was not clocked very fast nor did it have any pipelines to
> speak of.

I recall the National dog-and-pony show guys showing up and having a
good long talk with them.  The 320xx sounded like a very advanced chip
when compared with the usual 8086 or Z8000 stuff.

I recall that the design work for National was being done by an outside
outfit--that it wasn't a home-grown product.

At any rate, the discussion came down to "When can we get sample silicon?"

There was the rub.  "Real Soon Now".  I think we were quoted something
like 18 months for early steppings.   Didn't happen, not in 18 months,
nor in 24.  By the time silicon was being offered, we had long moved on.

I do have a 32CG06 in my collection.  It came from a Panasonic laser
printer.

--Chuck

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Ken Seefried]

From: Al Kossow 
>
> That reminds me I need to dig out the Genix sources I have.
>

I'd really like to see that, if it ever came to light.

KJ

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Ken Seefried]

From: allison 
>
>The 32016 was not clocked very fast nor did it have any pipelines to
>speak of.

True.  And lots of interesting bugs; some show-stoppers in early steppings.

>If the 32016 had a second generation, some tweaks and faster process it
>might have had hope but like 68k and Z8000 it was good idea but late.

It had 2 additional generations of general purpose procs (32332 &
32532) and a number of embedded iterations (ns32gc, ns32fx).  But,
yeah, too late relative to to i8086.

KJ

RE: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Jay West]

Yes. Please do!

Pontus wrote...
There is a system quite like it standing in the halls of the maths
department here. I'll have to take a closer look next time I'm there.

/P

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Steven M Jones]

On 01/15/2017 08:23, Al Kossow wrote:
> 
> 
> On 1/14/17 7:20 PM, allison wrote:
> 
>> If the 32016 had a second generation
> 
> It had several generations. The 32532 saw some use in laser printers.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS320xx

This kind of "buries the lead," however -- the NS32532 inspired the
pc532 by George Scolaro and Dave Rand at the very end of the 1980s. This
very capable and fairly complex design was freely available, right down
to the Gerber files and PAL equations.

Dave and George had previously worked on a PC/AT coprocessor board using
the 32016 for Definicon. The pc532 eventually supported MINIX, Mach, and
NetBSD ports. Phil Budne and some others on this list participated - I
could only afford to cheer from the sidelines...

NatSemi reworked various 32k chip designs into versions for embedded
use, eventually. The 32cg16, based on the 32016, had a healthy run in
printers for several years before the 32gx32 came along.

Off the top of my head, I can only recall the pc532 and the later model
of ETH's Ceres workstations as examples of "single-user" machines using
the '532. And of course if anybody wants to get rid of one, I'd be happy
to oblige... ;)

Links:
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC532
   http://www.netbsd.org/ports/pc532
   http://cpu-ns32k.net/index.html

--S.

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 10:20:56AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote:
> 
> 
> On 1/15/17 10:02 AM, Jay West wrote:
> > I'd have to say my HP-2000 systems that are running are the rarest that I'm 
> > aware of.
> > So I fairly strongly suspect that my running HP-2000's are the only ones 
> > left, anywhere.
> 
> probably true.
> 
> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102682887

There is a system quite like it standing in the halls of the maths 
department here. I'll have to take a closer look next time I'm there.

/P

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Jon Elson]

On 01/15/2017 10:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote:


On 1/14/17 6:29 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

I got versions of Genix and Xenix with it.

Do you still have Xenix?
I don't think so, but I'll look a bit more.  I may have 
overwritten those with Genix.
I do have the 24 or so Genix install disks.  These are 5.25" 
floppies.  I doubt I have anything that will read them, and 
have no idea what condition they are in.  The do look clean, 
so no serious degradation.


Jon

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Al Kossow]

On 1/15/17 10:02 AM, Jay West wrote:
> I'd have to say my HP-2000 systems that are running are the rarest that I'm 
> aware of.
> So I fairly strongly suspect that my running HP-2000's are the only ones 
> left, anywhere.

probably true.

http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102682887

is probably an Access system, I never looked to see if it has the 
interprocessor comm link

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Raymond Wiker]

> On 15 Jan 2017, at 17:23 , Al Kossow  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 1/14/17 7:20 PM, allison wrote:
> 
>> If the 32016 had a second generation
> 
> It had several generations. The 32532 saw some use in laser printers.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS320xx 

There was an MMU-less version of the 32532 (32gx32, I think) which was more 
common in embedded applications. The 32532 was used in the PC532 – I'm 
sometimes regretting letting mine go.

RE: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Jay West]

I'd have to say my HP-2000 systems that are running are the rarest that I'm 
aware of. I know of a few folks who have various bits and pieces towards 
assembling one, but not complete. I know two collectors who (each) have most if 
not all of the parts, but the systems are far from operational and likely never 
will be.

So I fairly strongly suspect that my running HP-2000's are the only ones left, 
anywhere. I have one HP-2000/Access system using dual 2100A/S cpus with HP 
paper tape readers and punches, another HP-2000/Access system using dual 
21MX/E's, and an HP-2000/E using one 21MX. Each of those have their own 7900, 
7906 disc drives and 7970 (not the 2000/E) tape units.

I think the most I ever paid for a system at once was $1500 for a "system", and 
about $2000 for a pallet of two incomplete systems. But in order to get the 3 
HP-2000 systems mentioned above and running, I'm sure it's edged uncomfortably 
into the 5 digit range.

All the other systems in my collection, while perhaps highly sought after... 
there are tens if not hundreds of identical systems in other collectors hands.

J

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Al Kossow]

On 1/14/17 7:20 PM, allison wrote:

> If the 32016 had a second generation

It had several generations. The 32532 saw some use in laser printers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS320xx

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Al Kossow]

On 1/14/17 6:29 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> 

> I got versions of Genix and Xenix with it.

Do you still have Xenix?

That reminds me I need to dig out the Genix sources I have.

There were a couple of companies that made PC cards with the chipset on it, and
once company that made a Q-Bus co-processor that used an 11/23 runing RSX-11M
as an I/O processor.

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Al Kossow]

I dug out the boards that I have to dump the eproms, and a while back put up 
what I had for schematics on bitsavers.

On 1/14/17 3:40 PM, Rick Bensene wrote:
> 
> 
>> From: "Rick Bensene" 
>>> - A Tektronix 4132 Unix workstation  using a National 32016 CPU and a 
>>> 4.2bsd port called UTek
>>>
> Jon wrote:
> 
>> Gee, how does it perform?  I built a clone of a Logical Microcomputer Co. 
>> 32016 Multibus system and got it working.  
>> But, it was glacially slow!  I did have some memory that was likely a little 
>> slower than the stock memory, but it wasn't insanely slow.  But, firing up 
>> certain things >like editors was just maddening.  And, I'm not talking about 
>> Emacs, just vi.  I eventually got a MicroVAX-II to replace it, and, yes, 
>> that DID have a cache to speed >up the memory, but it was quite a difference.
> 
> Well...considering the era, it wasn't too bad.  By today's standards, yeah, 
> it's pretty darned slow.
> Vi starts up pretty quick, even with a couple of terminals running on it.   
> It runs rogue pretty nicely, quick enough for multiple people to play it at 
> once.
> 
> The machine has 7MB of RAM, which really helps.   Without additional RAM, 
> there's only 1MB on the main board, and running it with just 1MB makes it 
> incredibly slow.  There isn't any external cache.  
> 
> It's fun to fire it up and just relive the days when I was on cloud nine to 
> have my own personal Unix workstation that I built myself from parts.
> 
> -Rick
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[allison]

On 01/14/2017 09:29 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>
> On 01/14/2017 05:40 PM, Rick Bensene wrote:
>>
>>> From: "Rick Bensene" 
 - A Tektronix 4132 Unix workstation  using a National 32016 CPU and a
 4.2bsd port called UTek

>> Jon wrote:
>>
>>> Gee, how does it perform?  I built a clone of a Logical
>>> Microcomputer Co. 32016 Multibus system and got it working.
>>> But, it was glacially slow!  I did have some memory that was likely
>>> a little slower than the stock memory, but it wasn't insanely slow. 
>>> But, firing up certain things >like editors was just maddening. 
>>> And, I'm not talking about Emacs, just vi.  I eventually got a
>>> MicroVAX-II to replace it, and, yes, that DID have a cache to speed
>>> >up the memory, but it was quite a difference.
>> Well...considering the era, it wasn't too bad.  By today's standards,
>> yeah, it's pretty darned slow.
>> Vi starts up pretty quick, even with a couple of terminals running on
>> it.   It runs rogue pretty nicely, quick enough for multiple people
>> to play it at once.
>>
>> The machine has 7MB of RAM, which really helps.   Without additional
>> RAM, there's only 1MB on the main board, and running it with just 1MB
>> makes it incredibly slow.  There isn't any external cache.
That can be because of swapping for most everything to disk.  uVAX that
is...

> Ahh, that may be part of the difference.  I can't remember how much
> memory I had on it.  I would not be surprised if it was as tiny as 128
> KB, or maybe 256 KB.  I'll check my schematics to see how many address
> lines were implemented.

My uVAXII used to run a Notes file and 5 regular users including me with
DECwindows (it was a GPX).
Speed compared to the latest single user 3ghz box does not compare but
unlike many PC its oS
does not eat its feet when stressed. 

MicroVAX tricks for speed were things like two disk controllers one
purely for swapping with say a RD31 (they were fast
for their size)  and the OS and users on separate disks using the second
controller.

The only pokey machine was the uVAX2000 as it was maxed at 12meg of ram
ad the only disk controller was
not fast nor pretty i that it was very dependent of the OS to handle the
scatter gather in memory as the disk only
had something like a 16K memory window for DMA.  Not the CPUs fault,
just minimization of hardware has costs.

>> It's fun to fire it up and just relive the days when I was on cloud
>> nine to have my own personal Unix workstation that I built myself
>> from parts.
>>
>>
> If mine hadn't performed so poorly, I might have continued to use it,
> and upgraded parts.
> I got versions of Genix and Xenix with it.  These were likely early
> ports for the 32016, and may have had poor implementations for the MMU
> for instance.
>
The 32016 was not clocked very fast nor did it have any pipelines to
speak of.  I needed all the help it could
get and lots of ram plus fast ram (no wait states) helped some.If
ther ewas a MMU it ran a bit better as the
OS didn't have to swap to the then rather slow disks with small read
write caches.

If the 32016 had a second generation, some tweaks and faster process it
might have had hope but like 68K
and Z8000 it was good idea but late.  The 8088 and 8086 had that space
and were generally even then
capable of going faster.  

Generally any machine that did virtualization or swapping was at the
mercy of the disks of the day
as some drives and their controllers were slow. 

Allison
> Jon
>

RE: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Rick Bensene]

I initially wrote in response to this thread:
 - A Tektronix 4132 Unix workstation  using a National 32016 CPU and 
 a 4.2bsd port called UTek

>> Jon responded:
>>
>>> Gee, how does it perform?  I built a clone of a Logical Microcomputer Co. 
>>> 32016 Multibus system and got it working.
>>> But, it was glacially slow!  I did have some memory that was likely a 
>>> little slower than the stock memory, but it wasn't insanely slow.  But, 
>>> firing up certain >>>things like editors was just maddening.  And, I'm not 
>>> talking about Emacs, just vi.  I eventually got a MicroVAX-II to replace 
>>> it, and, yes, that DID have a cache 
>>>to speed  up the memory, but it was quite a difference.

..and I responded with:

>> Well...considering the era, it wasn't too bad.  By today's standards, yeah, 
>> it's pretty darned slow.
>> Vi starts up pretty quick, even with a couple of terminals running on it.   
>> It runs rogue pretty nicely, quick enough for multiple people to play it at 
>> once.
>>
>> The machine has 7MB of RAM, which really helps.   Without additional RAM, 
>> there's only 1MB on the main board, and running it with just 1MB makes it 
>> >>incredibly slow.  There isn't any external cache.

And Jon wrote back:

>Ahh, that may be part of the difference.  I can't remember how much memory I 
>had on it.  I would not be surprised if it was as tiny as 128 KB, or maybe 256 
>KB.  >I'll check my schematics to see how many address lines were 
>implemented.''

With that little memory, even with cache, it was bound to be slow, and probably 
ended up paging a lot.
>
> If mine hadn't performed so poorly, I might have continued to use it, and 
> upgraded parts.
> I got versions of Genix and Xenix with it.  These were likely early ports for 
> the 32016, and may have had poor implementations for the MMU for instance.

The real difference was likely that UTek was a pretty true port of Berkeley 4.2 
for the VAX, which was a really good fit for the mature (for the time) virtual 
memory management features offered by BSD Unix, and the  demand-paged virtual 
memory capabilities of the 32016 chipset.

-Rick

 

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Jon Elson]

On 01/14/2017 05:40 PM, Rick Bensene wrote:



From: "Rick Bensene" 

- A Tektronix 4132 Unix workstation  using a National 32016 CPU and a
4.2bsd port called UTek


Jon wrote:


Gee, how does it perform?  I built a clone of a Logical Microcomputer Co. 32016 
Multibus system and got it working.
But, it was glacially slow!  I did have some memory that was likely a little slower 
than the stock memory, but it wasn't insanely slow.  But, firing up certain things 
>like editors was just maddening.  And, I'm not talking about Emacs, just vi.  I 
eventually got a MicroVAX-II to replace it, and, yes, that DID have a cache to speed 
>up the memory, but it was quite a difference.

Well...considering the era, it wasn't too bad.  By today's standards, yeah, 
it's pretty darned slow.
Vi starts up pretty quick, even with a couple of terminals running on it.   It 
runs rogue pretty nicely, quick enough for multiple people to play it at once.

The machine has 7MB of RAM, which really helps.   Without additional RAM, 
there's only 1MB on the main board, and running it with just 1MB makes it 
incredibly slow.  There isn't any external cache.
Ahh, that may be part of the difference.  I can't remember how much 
memory I had on it.  I would not be surprised if it was as tiny as 128 
KB, or maybe 256 KB.  I'll check my schematics to see how many address 
lines were implemented.

It's fun to fire it up and just relive the days when I was on cloud nine to 
have my own personal Unix workstation that I built myself from parts.


If mine hadn't performed so poorly, I might have continued to use it, 
and upgraded parts.
I got versions of Genix and Xenix with it.  These were likely early 
ports for the 32016, and may have had poor implementations for the MMU 
for instance.


Jon

RE: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own? [Tek 4132]

[Rick Bensene]

> From: "Rick Bensene" 
>> - A Tektronix 4132 Unix workstation  using a National 32016 CPU and a 
>> 4.2bsd port called UTek
>>
Jon wrote:

>Gee, how does it perform?  I built a clone of a Logical Microcomputer Co. 
>32016 Multibus system and got it working.  
>But, it was glacially slow!  I did have some memory that was likely a little 
>slower than the stock memory, but it wasn't insanely slow.  But, firing up 
>certain things >like editors was just maddening.  And, I'm not talking about 
>Emacs, just vi.  I eventually got a MicroVAX-II to replace it, and, yes, that 
>DID have a cache to speed >up the memory, but it was quite a difference.

Well...considering the era, it wasn't too bad.  By today's standards, yeah, 
it's pretty darned slow.
Vi starts up pretty quick, even with a couple of terminals running on it.   It 
runs rogue pretty nicely, quick enough for multiple people to play it at once.

The machine has 7MB of RAM, which really helps.   Without additional RAM, 
there's only 1MB on the main board, and running it with just 1MB makes it 
incredibly slow.  There isn't any external cache.  

It's fun to fire it up and just relive the days when I was on cloud nine to 
have my own personal Unix workstation that I built myself from parts.

-Rick