Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
Thanks. That’s how I was able to get on-line (with lots of help from JerryW). Great resource and highly recommended. Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> From: cctalk on behalf of Brian Roth via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 9:51 AM To: Paul Koning via cctalk; Grant Taylor; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? I apologize if this has been mentioned. http://shop-pdp.net/rthtml/tcpip.php Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 9:25 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > On Apr 29, 2019, at 9:05 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: > > On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports running over DECnet, >> but my memory could be faulty. I’ve only used WASD on VMS. > > I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do. > > But how does a web server run over DECnet? > > I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that can > carry HTTP. > > But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a > gateway to TCP/IP. Yes. What I meant is that one could take an existing HTTP client and server, or create one, substituting DECnet sockets for the TCP sockets. The protocol would work just fine that way. You'd need to decide how to deal with DECnet packet boundaries, something TCP doesn't have (a major omission). The simplest is to pay no attention to them, which is what I understand Ultrix "streaming DECnet" sockets to do. An alternative would be to make use of them, for example by saying that the entire HTTP header is in one packet and the payload (if any) follows in separate packets. paul
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
> On Apr 30, 2019, at 9:25 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > > > >> On Apr 29, 2019, at 9:05 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports running over DECnet, >>> but my memory could be faulty. I’ve only used WASD on VMS. >> >> I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do. >> >> But how does a web server run over DECnet? >> >> I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that can >> carry HTTP. >> >> But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a >> gateway to TCP/IP. > > Yes. What I meant is that one could take an existing HTTP client and server, > or create one, substituting DECnet sockets for the TCP sockets. The protocol > would work just fine that way. You'd need to decide how to deal with DECnet > packet boundaries, something TCP doesn't have (a major omission). The > simplest is to pay no attention to them, which is what I understand Ultrix > "streaming DECnet" sockets to do. An alternative would be to make use of > them, for example by saying that the entire HTTP header is in one packet and > the payload (if any) follows in separate packets. > > paul > > DECnet-Ultrix SOCK_STREAM sockets completely ignore message boundaries on both input and output. Early on we ran X-windows over DECnet just by changing the socket address family and the connect/accept logic. Very early on we had to test with SOCK_STREAM since DECnet was the first (and only?) protocol to make use of SOCK_SEQPACKET sockets and there was a crash lurking in the 4.2BSD kernel socket code for such sockets. John.
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
I apologize if this has been mentioned. http://shop-pdp.net/rthtml/tcpip.php Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 9:25 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > On Apr 29, 2019, at 9:05 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: > > On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports running over DECnet, >> but my memory could be faulty. I’ve only used WASD on VMS. > > I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do. > > But how does a web server run over DECnet? > > I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that can > carry HTTP. > > But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a > gateway to TCP/IP. Yes. What I meant is that one could take an existing HTTP client and server, or create one, substituting DECnet sockets for the TCP sockets. The protocol would work just fine that way. You'd need to decide how to deal with DECnet packet boundaries, something TCP doesn't have (a major omission). The simplest is to pay no attention to them, which is what I understand Ultrix "streaming DECnet" sockets to do. An alternative would be to make use of them, for example by saying that the entire HTTP header is in one packet and the payload (if any) follows in separate packets. paul
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
> On Apr 29, 2019, at 9:05 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: > > On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports running over DECnet, >> but my memory could be faulty. I’ve only used WASD on VMS. > > I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do. > > But how does a web server run over DECnet? > > I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that can > carry HTTP. > > But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a > gateway to TCP/IP. Yes. What I meant is that one could take an existing HTTP client and server, or create one, substituting DECnet sockets for the TCP sockets. The protocol would work just fine that way. You'd need to decide how to deal with DECnet packet boundaries, something TCP doesn't have (a major omission). The simplest is to pay no attention to them, which is what I understand Ultrix "streaming DECnet" sockets to do. An alternative would be to make use of them, for example by saying that the entire HTTP header is in one packet and the payload (if any) follows in separate packets. paul
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
On 4/29/19 10:19 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > If you get 2.11BSD up and going (which would require a CPU upgrade, it > won't run on the F11, needs split I+D), you can run a *native* IRC client! > One of the guys on #vc has written a minimalist IRC client that compiles > and runs on 2.11BSD on the PDP-11. > > AFAIK, there was no TCP/IP stack for the BSDs that will run on the F11. > Anyone know of one? What about Ultrix-11? I know it supports the 11/23 and it has TCP/IP. Whether it has both simultaneously I don't remember. bill
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
If you get 2.11BSD up and going (which would require a CPU upgrade, it won't run on the F11, needs split I+D), you can run a *native* IRC client! One of the guys on #vc has written a minimalist IRC client that compiles and runs on 2.11BSD on the PDP-11. AFAIK, there was no TCP/IP stack for the BSDs that will run on the F11. Anyone know of one? Thanks, Jonathan On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 9:05 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports running over > > DECnet, but my memory could be faulty. I’ve only used WASD on VMS. > > I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do. > > But how does a web server run over DECnet? > > I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that > can carry HTTP. > > But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a > gateway to TCP/IP. > > #confused #eagerToLearn > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die >
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports running over DECnet, but my memory could be faulty. I’ve only used WASD on VMS. I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do. But how does a web server run over DECnet? I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that can carry HTTP. But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a gateway to TCP/IP. #confused #eagerToLearn -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
> On Apr 29, 2019, at 5:40 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > > I've been thinking it would be neat (strange?) to have HTTP client/server > running over DECnet instead of TCP. Object number would be 80, of course. > > On Ultrix it seems this should be quite easy, given that it has "stream mode" > DECnet sockets that act very much like TCP streams. I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports running over DECnet, but my memory could be faulty. I’ve only used WASD on VMS. Zane
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
I've been thinking it would be neat (strange?) to have HTTP client/server running over DECnet instead of TCP. Object number would be 80, of course. On Ultrix it seems this should be quite easy, given that it has "stream mode" DECnet sockets that act very much like TCP streams. paul
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
Ok, that's good to know. Thanks. On 4/29/19, 8:29 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Cameron Kaiser via cctalk" wrote: > I'll have to see if I have the Gopher client installed on my disk image. > If not I'll install it and see how it goes. Great idea! The nice thing about Gopher is that even if you don't, the protocol is so trivial to speak and parse menus that you could probably bang a simple client out in an afternoon or less. -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs. -- Bruce Johnson
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
> I'll have to see if I have the Gopher client installed on my disk image. > If not I'll install it and see how it goes. Great idea! The nice thing about Gopher is that even if you don't, the protocol is so trivial to speak and parse menus that you could probably bang a simple client out in an afternoon or less. -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs. -- Bruce Johnson
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
I’ll have to see if I have the Gopher client installed on my disk image. If not I’ll install it and see how it goes. Great idea! Rich Get Outlook for iOS On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:25 AM -0400, "Cameron Kaiser via cctalk" wrote: > >> Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running? > > > > I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write, > > parse and display. > > > That might be true, but what sites still provide that service. Funny you should ask. gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/ -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- You can't fake the funk. -- Arnold X. Perkins --
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 6:14 PM Richard Cini via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > So, for playing around, what can I practically do with this? Is it even > possible to access any Web sites (unconventional browsing for sure; I’ve > read about telnetting to port 80)? I’m sure email is possible, as is > FTP/Telnet (I’ve used that inside my lab setup), but I don’t really know > where to start with that. > > > > If anyone has any pointers/suggestions, I’d appreciate it. > So, having just gone through some of this with my TeleVideo stuff, my suggestion is to do a bit of work on both the client (PDP-11) and something a bit faster, which can handle encryption etc. I wrote a couple of simple web services and some Z80 code (obviously your PDP-11 code will be a bit different but with a similar concept), to parse the HTML on something using a web service (I used an apache CGI script to make it simple), and send the parsed results to the client. It's not interactive, but it seemed like the most elegant solution to the problem. If you want to see my code, check out "cgi/tvi-lynx.pl" and "almmmost/z80/LYNXGET.ZASM": https://github.com/vax11/almmmost Pat
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
There is a TCP/IP stack available for RT-11, although I've never tried it. It apparently works with both DEQNA and DELQA cards, and I suspect you've got one or the other in your 11/23. http://shop-pdp.net/rthtml/tcpip.php It is possible, but also very painful, to view websites using the telnet client "GET / HTTP/1.1" followed by two returns should give you a page. I think it's more fun to do the opposite. My PDP-11/73 (in a 11/23+ chassis) is accessible via the web, when it's powered up. http://catbert.rhwyd.co.uk https://web.archive.org/web/20190420150036/http://catbert.rhwyd.co.uk/ So there's plenty of room to have fun :) Aaron Richard Cini via cctalk writes: > All – > > > > Over the last few months, I’ve built myself a nice little PDP-11/23 with a > SCSI interface/drive, extra SLUs and Ethernet. With the help of a few people, > I was able to get an Ethernet configuration running, which is kind of cool. > It’s been a great learning process getting this up and running. It’s a Q18 > system, so memory is limited and I don’t think able to run BSD (I’m running > RT-11 right now). > > > > So, for playing around, what can I practically do with this? Is it even > possible to access any Web sites (unconventional browsing for sure; I’ve read > about telnetting to port 80)? I’m sure email is possible, as is FTP/Telnet > (I’ve used that inside my lab setup), but I don’t really know where to start > with that. > > > > If anyone has any pointers/suggestions, I’d appreciate it. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Rich -- Aaron Jackson - M6PIU Researcher at University of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk/
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
> >> Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running? > > > > I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write, > > parse and display. > > > That might be true, but what sites still provide that service. Funny you should ask. gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/ -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- You can't fake the funk. -- Arnold X. Perkins --
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
On 04/29/2019 03:20 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 4/28/2019 11:34 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >>> Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running? >> >> I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write, >> parse and display. >> > That might be true, but what sites still provide that service. > A web novel app might work. 5K of REAL text, 5Meg of ads,pop ups and > java script. :( > Ben. > > > With a PDP-11/23 and full boat ram (18bit) you can run more than RT-11 and something like V6 unix or maybe RSX might be a better choice for anything networking. An OS that supports swapping and maybe virtual memory would help even at the expense of speed. Networking does require some level of multitasking as well so RT-11/FB is likely more useful than vanilla RT. Allison
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
It was thus said that the Great ben via cctalk once stated: > On 4/28/2019 11:34 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > >>Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running? > > > >I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write, > >parse and display. > > > That might be true, but what sites still provide that service. There are quite a few active gopher sites out there. You can start with: gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/world but wait! There's more! gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/fun/xkcd gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/feeds/latest gopher://gopher.altexxanet.org/1/textfiles.com gopher://1436.ninja/1/Project_Gutenberg_in_Gopherspace gopher://hngopher.com/ gopher://sdf.org/1/users/julienxx/Lobste.rs and some phlogs (gopher blogs): gopher://gopher.black/1/moku-pona gopher://i-logout.cz/1/en/bongusta/ (although there's some overlap between these two). -spc
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
On 4/28/2019 11:34 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running? I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write, parse and display. That might be true, but what sites still provide that service. A web novel app might work. 5K of REAL text, 5Meg of ads,pop ups and java script. :( Ben.
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
> Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running? I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write, parse and display. -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- Complete indifference to suffering is our duty. -- V. I. Lenin -
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
> On April 28, 2019 at 11:24 AM Richard Cini via cctech > wrote: > > So, for playing around, what can I practically do with this? Is it even > possible to access any Web sites (unconventional browsing for sure; I’ve read > about telnetting to port 80)? I’m sure email is possible, as is FTP/Telnet > (I’ve used that inside my lab setup), but I don’t really know where to start > with that. > > > > If anyone has any pointers/suggestions, I’d appreciate it. > Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running? https://lynx.browser.org/ "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery "The names of global variables should start with // " -- https://isocpp.org
Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 5:24 PM Will Cooke via cctech wrote: > > > On April 28, 2019 at 11:24 AM Richard Cini via cctech < > cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > So, for playing around, what can I practically do with this? Is it even > possible to access any Web sites (unconventional browsing for sure; I’ve > read about telnetting to port 80)? I’m sure email is possible, as is > FTP/Telnet (I’ve used that inside my lab setup), but I don’t really know > where to start with that. > > > > > > > > If anyone has any pointers/suggestions, I’d appreciate > it. > > > > Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running? > https://lynx.browser.org/ Text only without crypto might be possible. However, with the hard limit of 64k+64k, even with overlays, is going to be a heavy lift. Warner > "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing > left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de > Saint-Exupery > > > "The names of global variables should start with// " -- > https://isocpp.org >
What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11?
All – Over the last few months, I’ve built myself a nice little PDP-11/23 with a SCSI interface/drive, extra SLUs and Ethernet. With the help of a few people, I was able to get an Ethernet configuration running, which is kind of cool. It’s been a great learning process getting this up and running. It’s a Q18 system, so memory is limited and I don’t think able to run BSD (I’m running RT-11 right now). So, for playing around, what can I practically do with this? Is it even possible to access any Web sites (unconventional browsing for sure; I’ve read about telnetting to port 80)? I’m sure email is possible, as is FTP/Telnet (I’ve used that inside my lab setup), but I don’t really know where to start with that. If anyone has any pointers/suggestions, I’d appreciate it. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
