RE: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS

[Marc Verdiell]

Woot! I finally got my HP 7970E (yeah, a year in the making!), HP 88780, and
Overland Data OD3201 9-track tapes all working at the same time. One on
HP-IB, one on SCSI-1, and one on Parallel Port interface. Only my ever
finicky Qualstars got jealous and decided not to play ball. Here is a family
video:
https://youtu.be/eCBxNhEzIfc
The DOS computer is a vintage Dolch PAC 65. 
Thanks for all here who helped with tips, documentation and software.

Marc

Re: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/06/2015 11:54 AM, Rich Alderson wrote:


Of course, that's mostly true for those machines restricted to silly
octets as their native data representation. :->


And one finds odd-byte-sized records not infrequently in big iron--and 
then you have to ask "where do most half-inch 9-track tapes originate?" 
 It ain't from DEC, for sure.


FWIW, my routines don't bother to pad to an even byte boundary.

--Chuck

Re: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS

[John Wilson]

On Tue, Oct 06, 2015 at 06:54:09PM +, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> But most popular tape
>> labeling schemes will always produce even-lengthed records, so there's no
>> difference.
>
>Of course, that's mostly true for those machines restricted to silly octets as
>their native data representation. :->

Believe me, I was totally thinking of the TM03/TM78 in 36-bit mode when
I stuck "most" in there.  :-)

John Wilson
D Bit

RE: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS

[Rich Alderson]

From: John Wilson
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2015 12:33 AM

> On Sat, Oct 03, 2015 at 09:49:49PM -0700, Marc Verdiell wrote:
>> Your program worked beautifully writing a SIMH format file on my HP 88780
>> tape!

> The difference is that SIMH's native format pads records to even sizes before
> appending the "length" longword, and E11's doesn't.  But most popular tape
> labeling schemes will always produce even-lengthed records, so there's no
> difference.

Of course, that's mostly true for those machines restricted to silly octets as
their native data representation. :->

Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:ri...@livingcomputermuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

Re: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS

[simon]

well, we at hack42 are discussing a pertec to usb converter based on a 
microcontroller. pertec seems straightforward, now how to present the 
drive to the os...


Simon

On 03-10-15 10:20, Mike Ross wrote:

Question: will this kind of hookup work with a USB-SCSI converter? If
so, are there any specific brands and models known to work? I'm
interested in both SE & differential, 50 pin & 68 pin.

Or does it need a traditional Adaptec or similar card?

Preferably under Linux; Windows possible but deprecated.

Mike

On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 7:52 PM, John Wilson  wrote:

On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 11:28:49PM -0700, Marc Verdiell wrote:

Thanks for your STP2T02.exe  SCSI tape to SIMH program. Ran like a champ
under Win98 DOS, first time. It's the only utility that did work out of the
box to read a tape from my SCSI-1 HP 88780 9-track into a SIMH file,  out of
the 5 or so I tried.  Before I jump to Linux, which seems to be the more
straightforward option, does anyone have the reverse tool to write a SIMH
image file on a 9 Track tape under Windows/DOS? None of the utilities I
found using Windows Tape APIs could deal with my tape SCSI-1 early
interface, they all expect some basic (SCSI-2?) functions that are not
implemented.


My "ST.EXE" program (available from http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/
including source) runs on real DOS (not Windows) and can write from an
E11-format .TAP file (which SIMH uses a garbled version of, but they're
interchangeable for *even* record lengths which are 99% of the universe)
to a real tape.  It works on my HP 88780, and my Qualstar 1260S and even
a DEC TZ30 or TK50Z-GA (which aren't quite full SCSI-1).  Not picky at all.
"st wput foo.tap" should write your image out.  You need a DOS ASPI driver
for your SCSI card, and you'll need to use something like "-f scsi5:" on
the command line (or set the TAPE environment variable) so ST will know
which SCSI ID (etc.) to use.

John Wilson
D Bit






--
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

Re: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS

[John Wilson]

On Sat, Oct 03, 2015 at 09:49:49PM -0700, Marc Verdiell wrote:
>Your program worked beautifully writing a SIMH format file on my HP 88780
>tape!

Beauty -- glad to hear it!

The difference is that SIMH's native format pads records to even sizes before
appending the "length" longword, and E11's doesn't.  But most popular tape
labeling schemes will always produce even-lengthed records, so there's no
difference.

John Wilson
D Bit

RE: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS

[Dave G4UGM]

Seeing as all the programs mentioned appear to only have  Windows versions 
available then if by "this kind of approach" you meant using the programs 
mentioned, its not going to work on Linux "out of the box".
A quick web search shows that at least some SCSI adaptors don't work in the way 
I expected

http://forum.silverfast.com/canoscan-2700-and-scsi-usb-adaptator-t4703.html

which implies that rather than present the disk to Windows as a SCSI controller 
and devices, the SCSI2USB presents it as a USB storage device. The programs 
below appear to expect an ASPI driver so I think the answer is these don't work 
either. 

Dave

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross
> Sent: 03 October 2015 09:21
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS
> 
> Question: will this kind of hookup work with a USB-SCSI converter? If so, are
> there any specific brands and models known to work? I'm interested in both
> SE & differential, 50 pin & 68 pin.
> 
> Or does it need a traditional Adaptec or similar card?
> 
> Preferably under Linux; Windows possible but deprecated.
> 
> Mike
> 
> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 7:52 PM, John Wilson <wil...@dbit.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 11:28:49PM -0700, Marc Verdiell wrote:
> >>Thanks for your STP2T02.exe  SCSI tape to SIMH program. Ran like a
> >>champ under Win98 DOS, first time. It's the only utility that did work
> >>out of the box to read a tape from my SCSI-1 HP 88780 9-track into a
> >>SIMH file,  out of the 5 or so I tried.  Before I jump to Linux, which
> >>seems to be the more straightforward option, does anyone have the
> >>reverse tool to write a SIMH image file on a 9 Track tape under
> >>Windows/DOS? None of the utilities I found using Windows Tape APIs
> >>could deal with my tape SCSI-1 early interface, they all expect some
> >>basic (SCSI-2?) functions that are not implemented.
> >
> > My "ST.EXE" program (available from
> > http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/
> > including source) runs on real DOS (not Windows) and can write from an
> > E11-format .TAP file (which SIMH uses a garbled version of, but
> > they're interchangeable for *even* record lengths which are 99% of the
> > universe) to a real tape.  It works on my HP 88780, and my Qualstar
> > 1260S and even a DEC TZ30 or TK50Z-GA (which aren't quite full SCSI-1).
> Not picky at all.
> > "st wput foo.tap" should write your image out.  You need a DOS ASPI
> > driver for your SCSI card, and you'll need to use something like "-f
> > scsi5:" on the command line (or set the TAPE environment variable) so
> > ST will know which SCSI ID (etc.) to use.
> >
> > John Wilson
> > D Bit
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> http://www.corestore.org
> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

RE: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS

[Dave G4UGM]

I think that the options are limited these days. As far as I can tell the 
Adaptech USB Exchange isn't supported past XP. I have no idea if it works as I 
don't have one to try. They also seem "Rare and Expensive"

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161840342686

You can get a machine with a traditional PCI slot and use an older Adaptec SCSI 
adaptor. (I keep a box of these and a machine with a PCI slot). You can get 
PCI-Express adaptors but the cheap ones won't fit in my desktop as it only has 
a PCI-Express X1 slot and most of the adaptors need an X4 slot... e.g.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281812515989

and the X1 versions are expensive...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291539495842

and these are both U320 standard so only Low Voltage Differential (LVD) devices 
will work and many older disks are 5V single ended...
... of course you can get converters but the price is high

http://www.paralanstore.net/index.php?main_page=index=60_1

So  keep an old machine and pray it does not break.

Dave Wade
G4UGM

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross
> Sent: 03 October 2015 11:07
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS
> 
> Well that link gave some things to think about - but I was thinking more of a
> generic 'legacy SCSI disks and tapes into a modern computer'
> without necessarily being to picky about which OS or application to use
> with them - but generally yes going to and from physical devices to image
> files.
> 
> Mike
> 
> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Seeing as all the programs mentioned appear to only have  Windows
> versions available then if by "this kind of approach" you meant using the
> programs mentioned, its not going to work on Linux "out of the box".
> > A quick web search shows that at least some SCSI adaptors don't work
> > in the way I expected
> >
> > http://forum.silverfast.com/canoscan-2700-and-scsi-usb-adaptator-t4703
> > .html
> >
> > which implies that rather than present the disk to Windows as a SCSI
> controller and devices, the SCSI2USB presents it as a USB storage device. The
> programs below appear to expect an ASPI driver so I think the answer is
> these don't work either.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> >> Ross
> >> Sent: 03 October 2015 09:21
> >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> >> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> >> Subject: Re: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS
> >>
> >> Question: will this kind of hookup work with a USB-SCSI converter? If
> >> so, are there any specific brands and models known to work? I'm
> >> interested in both SE & differential, 50 pin & 68 pin.
> >>
> >> Or does it need a traditional Adaptec or similar card?
> >>
> >> Preferably under Linux; Windows possible but deprecated.
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 7:52 PM, John Wilson <wil...@dbit.com> wrote:
> >> > On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 11:28:49PM -0700, Marc Verdiell wrote:
> >> >>Thanks for your STP2T02.exe  SCSI tape to SIMH program. Ran like a
> >> >>champ under Win98 DOS, first time. It's the only utility that did
> >> >>work out of the box to read a tape from my SCSI-1 HP 88780 9-track
> >> >>into a SIMH file,  out of the 5 or so I tried.  Before I jump to
> >> >>Linux, which seems to be the more straightforward option, does
> >> >>anyone have the reverse tool to write a SIMH image file on a 9
> >> >>Track tape under Windows/DOS? None of the utilities I found using
> >> >>Windows Tape APIs could deal with my tape SCSI-1 early interface,
> >> >>they all expect some basic (SCSI-2?) functions that are not
> implemented.
> >> >
> >> > My "ST.EXE" program (available from
> >> > http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/
> >> > including source) runs on real DOS (not Windows) and can write from
> >> > an E11-format .TAP file (which SIMH uses a garbled version of, but
> >> > they're interchangeable for *even* record lengths which are 99% of
> >> > the
> >> > universe) to a real tape.  It works on my HP 88780, and my Qualstar
> >> > 1260S and even a DEC TZ30 or TK50Z-GA (which aren't quite full SCSI-1).
> >> Not picky at all.
> >

Re: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS

[Mike Ross]

Well that link gave some things to think about - but I was thinking
more of a generic 'legacy SCSI disks and tapes into a modern computer'
without necessarily being to picky about which OS or application
to use with them - but generally yes going to and from physical
devices to image files.

Mike

On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Seeing as all the programs mentioned appear to only have  Windows versions 
> available then if by "this kind of approach" you meant using the programs 
> mentioned, its not going to work on Linux "out of the box".
> A quick web search shows that at least some SCSI adaptors don't work in the 
> way I expected
>
> http://forum.silverfast.com/canoscan-2700-and-scsi-usb-adaptator-t4703.html
>
> which implies that rather than present the disk to Windows as a SCSI 
> controller and devices, the SCSI2USB presents it as a USB storage device. The 
> programs below appear to expect an ASPI driver so I think the answer is these 
> don't work either.
>
> Dave
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross
>> Sent: 03 October 2015 09:21
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: Re: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS
>>
>> Question: will this kind of hookup work with a USB-SCSI converter? If so, are
>> there any specific brands and models known to work? I'm interested in both
>> SE & differential, 50 pin & 68 pin.
>>
>> Or does it need a traditional Adaptec or similar card?
>>
>> Preferably under Linux; Windows possible but deprecated.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 7:52 PM, John Wilson <wil...@dbit.com> wrote:
>> > On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 11:28:49PM -0700, Marc Verdiell wrote:
>> >>Thanks for your STP2T02.exe  SCSI tape to SIMH program. Ran like a
>> >>champ under Win98 DOS, first time. It's the only utility that did work
>> >>out of the box to read a tape from my SCSI-1 HP 88780 9-track into a
>> >>SIMH file,  out of the 5 or so I tried.  Before I jump to Linux, which
>> >>seems to be the more straightforward option, does anyone have the
>> >>reverse tool to write a SIMH image file on a 9 Track tape under
>> >>Windows/DOS? None of the utilities I found using Windows Tape APIs
>> >>could deal with my tape SCSI-1 early interface, they all expect some
>> >>basic (SCSI-2?) functions that are not implemented.
>> >
>> > My "ST.EXE" program (available from
>> > http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/
>> > including source) runs on real DOS (not Windows) and can write from an
>> > E11-format .TAP file (which SIMH uses a garbled version of, but
>> > they're interchangeable for *even* record lengths which are 99% of the
>> > universe) to a real tape.  It works on my HP 88780, and my Qualstar
>> > 1260S and even a DEC TZ30 or TK50Z-GA (which aren't quite full SCSI-1).
>> Not picky at all.
>> > "st wput foo.tap" should write your image out.  You need a DOS ASPI
>> > driver for your SCSI card, and you'll need to use something like "-f
>> > scsi5:" on the command line (or set the TAPE environment variable) so
>> > ST will know which SCSI ID (etc.) to use.
>> >
>> > John Wilson
>> > D Bit
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> http://www.corestore.org
>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
>



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/02/2015 11:28 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote:

Chuck,
Thanks for your STP2T02.exe  SCSI tape to SIMH program. Ran like a champ
under Win98 DOS, first time. It's the only utility that did work out of the
box to read a tape from my SCSI-1 HP 88780 9-track into a SIMH file,  out of
the 5 or so I tried.  Before I jump to Linux, which seems to be the more
straightforward option, does anyone have the reverse tool to write a SIMH
image file on a 9 Track tape under Windows/DOS? None of the utilities I
found using Windows Tape APIs could deal with my tape SCSI-1 early
interface, they all expect some basic (SCSI-2?) functions that are not
implemented.


Thanks for the kind words.  I didn't do the reverse, as my interest lies 
primarily in retrieving data from old media, not creating more data on 
old media.   Generally, I make the SIMH file from a tape and have a 
bunch of utilities to process the file for conversion to modern formats 
(code translation, deblocking, un-archiving, etc.).


That being said, there are routines in that SCSI package for writing 
tape.  They were borrowed from an old forensics package that had to 
pretty much work with any SCSI device, so I'm pretty confident that 
they'll work.  They were replaced about 8 years of field use with a C++ 
version (much easier to handle the minutiae of tape when encapsulated as 
a C++ object).


I'm sure that John's st() utilities are equally valuable, but I never 
could get them to work with my setup.


The general problem with UNIX/BSD/Linux is that the philosophy there is 
that everything is basically a disk file, however physically embodied. 
Tapes are not disks.


In general, I don't like most SCSI tape drives for data retrieval, as 
the SCSI interface seems to require that implied read-ahead be used to 
keep the tape moving.  There's nothing quite like watching a SCSI tape 
drive going through a "scrubbing" cycle trying to read a tape block that 
you never asked for.


--Chuck

Re: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS

[John Wilson]

On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 11:28:49PM -0700, Marc Verdiell wrote:
>Thanks for your STP2T02.exe  SCSI tape to SIMH program. Ran like a champ
>under Win98 DOS, first time. It's the only utility that did work out of the
>box to read a tape from my SCSI-1 HP 88780 9-track into a SIMH file,  out of
>the 5 or so I tried.  Before I jump to Linux, which seems to be the more
>straightforward option, does anyone have the reverse tool to write a SIMH
>image file on a 9 Track tape under Windows/DOS? None of the utilities I
>found using Windows Tape APIs could deal with my tape SCSI-1 early
>interface, they all expect some basic (SCSI-2?) functions that are not
>implemented.

My "ST.EXE" program (available from http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/
including source) runs on real DOS (not Windows) and can write from an
E11-format .TAP file (which SIMH uses a garbled version of, but they're
interchangeable for *even* record lengths which are 99% of the universe)
to a real tape.  It works on my HP 88780, and my Qualstar 1260S and even
a DEC TZ30 or TK50Z-GA (which aren't quite full SCSI-1).  Not picky at all.
"st wput foo.tap" should write your image out.  You need a DOS ASPI driver
for your SCSI card, and you'll need to use something like "-f scsi5:" on
the command line (or set the TAPE environment variable) so ST will know
which SCSI ID (etc.) to use.

John Wilson
D Bit

Re: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS

[Mike Ross]

Question: will this kind of hookup work with a USB-SCSI converter? If
so, are there any specific brands and models known to work? I'm
interested in both SE & differential, 50 pin & 68 pin.

Or does it need a traditional Adaptec or similar card?

Preferably under Linux; Windows possible but deprecated.

Mike

On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 7:52 PM, John Wilson  wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 11:28:49PM -0700, Marc Verdiell wrote:
>>Thanks for your STP2T02.exe  SCSI tape to SIMH program. Ran like a champ
>>under Win98 DOS, first time. It's the only utility that did work out of the
>>box to read a tape from my SCSI-1 HP 88780 9-track into a SIMH file,  out of
>>the 5 or so I tried.  Before I jump to Linux, which seems to be the more
>>straightforward option, does anyone have the reverse tool to write a SIMH
>>image file on a 9 Track tape under Windows/DOS? None of the utilities I
>>found using Windows Tape APIs could deal with my tape SCSI-1 early
>>interface, they all expect some basic (SCSI-2?) functions that are not
>>implemented.
>
> My "ST.EXE" program (available from http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/
> including source) runs on real DOS (not Windows) and can write from an
> E11-format .TAP file (which SIMH uses a garbled version of, but they're
> interchangeable for *even* record lengths which are 99% of the universe)
> to a real tape.  It works on my HP 88780, and my Qualstar 1260S and even
> a DEC TZ30 or TK50Z-GA (which aren't quite full SCSI-1).  Not picky at all.
> "st wput foo.tap" should write your image out.  You need a DOS ASPI driver
> for your SCSI card, and you'll need to use something like "-f scsi5:" on
> the command line (or set the TAPE environment variable) so ST will know
> which SCSI ID (etc.) to use.
>
> John Wilson
> D Bit



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS

[Marc Verdiell]

Chuck,
Thanks for your STP2T02.exe  SCSI tape to SIMH program. Ran like a champ
under Win98 DOS, first time. It's the only utility that did work out of the
box to read a tape from my SCSI-1 HP 88780 9-track into a SIMH file,  out of
the 5 or so I tried.  Before I jump to Linux, which seems to be the more
straightforward option, does anyone have the reverse tool to write a SIMH
image file on a 9 Track tape under Windows/DOS? None of the utilities I
found using Windows Tape APIs could deal with my tape SCSI-1 early
interface, they all expect some basic (SCSI-2?) functions that are not
implemented.
Marc