Re: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))]

[geneb]

On Wed, 14 Sep 2016, Rich Alderson wrote:


If you want to change a subject please start a new thread, and if you
wish you can give the new thread a subject line such as "New Subject (was
Old Subject)" to reflect its origin.


Actually, Mr. Cook, the standard for the last 35 years or so has been to


*grabs popcorn*

g.

--
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Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Liam Proven]

On 14 September 2016 at 19:12, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:
> Cool.  I was a big fan of running Netware over Token Ring.   But remember
> eventually
> just getting crushed by cheap and easier to install ethernet.   One of my
> main clients at
> the time was on 4mb Token, and we were asked for a proposal to speed it up.
> 16mb Token Ring had just come out, and the per-card cost was very high.
> Another
> vendor proposed with 10mbit ethernet and stole the client... despite them
> having to
> ditch the expensive, genuine IBM 4mb Token setup (whose wiring could have
> still
> been used for 16mb) and rewire the place.   Still bugs me to this day, which
> is
> probably why I'm writing about it now.  :-)


I saw a few "BrokenString" deployments, but it always was very
expensive, relatively speaking, and except on very heavily-loaded
networks, it was slower, so even at the turn of the '90s, in my world,
it was being replaced by Ethernet unless IBM big iron connectivity was
required.

I've also, just the once, removed an ATM network adaptor from a
desktop PC. Never saw it in real life, but that client had just
returned from Singapore where their home broadband was delivered over
ATM.

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
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Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Liam Proven]

On 14 September 2016 at 18:15, tony duell  wrote:
>> > * LittleBigLAN(never heard of or saw)
>> > * The $25 Network (never heard of or saw)
>>
>> Odd... They were sold in the UK as being American imports...
>
> Dare I suggest that perhaps they flopped in the states so they
> tried to flog them to us :-)

I share your cynicism in general on that point, but this was sold for
_years_ by, IIRC, a little company called EQ Consultants, IIRC.

http://eqc.co.uk/

It was definitely a thing when Ethernet was still too expensive.
Here's a mini-review:

http://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/issue142/70_Getting_wired.php

> I've never seen it in operation, but the Gemini
> Galaxy (somewhat based on the Nascom, with
> the same bus) had a network option. It was a little
> board that hung off the parallel connector on the
> CPU board. The one I have had had all the numbers
> scratched off the ICs, it took me about 2 minutes
> to realise that the main 40 pin IC was a dumb
> UART. The rest of the board was a bit of logic
> to interface it to the parallel port, a clock
> generator and RS485 buffers.

Interesting. I heard of it, certainly, but I never knew of anyone who
actually used it.

> Of course the common network in UK schools
> in the early 80s was Econet (Acorn's network
> for the BBC micro, Atom, etc).

I saw quite a few decommissioned machines with Econet adaptors, and
I've seen a demo network set up at a show in the last decade I think,
but I don't think I ever saw one in action.

I did see IEE-488 in use, both on CBM PETs and BBC Micros, in
education -- both for storage and for connecting to lab equipment.


-- 
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Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
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Re: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))]

[Liam Proven]

On 15 September 2016 at 01:28, Rich Alderson
 wrote:
> Any decent newsreader or threading mail
> reader knows how to deal with that, and threading is unbroken.


Would that this were true.

Of course, many would say that Gmail is not a decent MUA; however,
it's the best for my needs these days. Every subject edit creates a
new thread in it, and it's very confusing.

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Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Wayne Sudol]

Re: Tacky Ring (what we used to call it) vs Enet.  IIRC one of the issues
going forward with TR was that it was mostly an IBM design (patented?) and
the prices of TR chips available to card manufacturers was pretty high.
This was around 1988.  I think that the reason for the high cost was that
there was not a second source of TR chips available at that time because
IBM had control of it and charged a large license fee for the design. They
also misjudged the demand.

I worked at at a large corporate IBM shop with lots of mainframes and 3270
Terminals. PC's came in grudgingly (IBM PS/2) of course) and we bought
Madge and IRMA cards to get them to talk to the IBMs. Everyone thought of
the PS/2 as cheaper 3270 replacements. I think a 3270 cost about $6000 each
back then. Don't know what the PS/2 cost but it was *much* cheaper.  The
cards (4 mb) were very expensive (@$500) at that time as was the type-1
cabling needed for connection. When 16 mb came out the cost to upgrade was
just too high. Also, the programs that ran on the mainframes started to be
ported to smaller systems that ran something else than TR so it was
apparent that we didn't actually need to spend millions on IBM mainframes
any more.





Wayne Sudol
Riverside PressEnterprise
A DigialFirst Media Newspaper.


On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 10:12 AM, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:

>
>
> On 9/14/2016 11:04 AM, william degnan wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 11:56 AM, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I too started in 1988, doing the same kind of work (mid-Atlantic region,
>>> USA), same number and types of places.  Just to compare:
>>>
>>> * Banyan VINES(never saw)
>>> * Corvus  (saw once)
>>> * ARCnet  (saw many times)
>>> * LittleBigLAN(never heard of or saw)
>>> * The $25 Network (never heard of or saw)
>>> * NFS (there were SUNs at the-then NBS (Bureau of Standards)
>>>(but I rarely encountered UNIX anywhere)
>>>
>>> * 3Com 3+Share(saw only one place -- at NASA Goddard)
>>> * Sage MainLAN(never heard of)
>>> * Personl Netware (never saw)
>>> * Netware Lite(never saw)
>>> * DEC Pathworks   (saw only two places -- NASA G and NBS)
>>>
>>> Most frequently worked with:
>>> * Netware 3.x&   4.x
>>> * Lantastic
>>> * Windows / Microsoft
>>>
>>> - J.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also a mid-Atlantic alumni...
>> I started the networking portion of my career in 1987, working at IBM.
>> Part of my job was to set up Token Ring Network for sales demos (college
>> intern).   Also Hypercard related networking was big in the late 80's.  Dd
>> a lot of TCP/IP networking starting in 1992 or so.
>> Bill
>>
>
> Cool.  I was a big fan of running Netware over Token Ring.   But remember
> eventually
> just getting crushed by cheap and easier to install ethernet.   One of my
> main clients at
> the time was on 4mb Token, and we were asked for a proposal to speed it up.
> 16mb Token Ring had just come out, and the per-card cost was very high.
>  Another
> vendor proposed with 10mbit ethernet and stole the client... despite them
> having to
> ditch the expensive, genuine IBM 4mb Token setup (whose wiring could have
> still
> been used for 16mb) and rewire the place.   Still bugs me to this day,
> which is
> probably why I'm writing about it now.  :-)
>
> - J.
>

Re: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))]

[Eric Smith]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg  wrote:
> Not the standard, but a convention.
>
> The standard is documented in RFC 5322 section 3.6.4 (and dates back to
> RFC822).

I think you may mean RFC 5322 section 3.6.5, which does give a "MAY"
suggestion for the use of "Re: " at the start of the contents of the
subject field, but I'm unable to find any mention of the square
bracket or "was" convention for subject line changes within a thread
anywhere in RFC 5322, RFC 822, or even RFC 733.  Aside from the "Re: "
convention, all three RFCs describe the Subject field as unstructured
text, subject to the line folding rules (defined in RFC 5322 section
2.2.3 "Long Header Fields").

Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Jerry Kemp]

Banyan Vines - did LOTS of Banyan stuff from the military.  Thousands of end 
users.  Great stuff, but Banyan had no more product marketing skills than IBM 
did with OS/2.  The Banyan NOS stuff ran on top of a SysV Release III Unix if I 
remember correctly.  Its been a while.


ARCnet - saw some of this, not a lot though

ENS StreetTalk - Again from Banyan, IMHO, the first real practical directory 
service.  Even as Banyan Vines (proper) servers were dwindling, we ran 
StreetTalk on top of Solaris boxes.


OS/2 stuff - did more than my fair share of OS/2 stuff.  For file shares 
primarily SMB, but a lot over NFS also.


NFS - really surprised from the OP's comments.  NFS file shares have been the 
"bread-N-butter" of files shares for (me) for over 2 decades


GOSIP - Anyone remember this?  I spent 6 months, 8 hours a day learning 
intricate details about GOSIP in the mid 1990's.  FWIW, this is/was the only 
networking protocol that actually matches up with the OSI 7 layer model.  No, 
TCP/IP doesn't come anywhere close.   Read more here if you are really interested:




IBM System 34 & 36 mini's - got my start here.

I guess we ultimately all have unique experiences.

Unix and (Cisco) core routing and switching has kept a roof over my head since 
the mid 1990's.


I have a number of unique skills that (so far) have kept me employed thru all 
the bad times in the economy, and to provide the leverage to keep employers from 
forcing m$ junk on me.


Jerry
m$ free since '93



On 09/14/16 10:56 AM, j...@cimmeri.com wrote:



On 9/14/2016 8:50 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

On 14 September 2016 at 03:08, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

There were networking packages for the PC early on.  Remember Banyan? They
date from 1985. Corvus?  Even Datapoint had an ARCnet facility for PCs in
1984. Quite a few vendors had 802.3 capability.  Networking, however
disorganized, was a very hot thing by 1987.


This is quite interesting in terms of an Europe/NorAm divide.

I entered the business in 1988. After 25y in support, working on
thousands of systems in half a dozen countries, from 2-man outfits to
multi-billion-dollar multinationals, no, I never ever saw any systems
whatsoever running:
* Banyan VINES
* Corvus
* ARCnet
* LittleBigLAN
* The $25 Network

(Obviously, I've heard of them.)

To this day, I have never once used any form of NFS or ever seen it in use.

However, I routinely worked with:
* 3Com 3+Share
* Sage MainLAN
* Personal Netware
* Netware Lite
* DEC Pathworks

Most of these never seem to get mentioned in Stateside comms.

Odd.

Re: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))]

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

Actually, Mr. Cook, the standard for the last 35 years or so has been to
change the subject line, with the old subject in SQUARE BRACKETS with the
characters "was: " prepended.


Not the standard, but a convention.

The standard is documented in RFC 5322 section 3.6.4 (and dates back to 
RFC822).  This isn't anything new.  In the Usenet world, nn and trn made 
agressive use of these headers to thread discussion chains.  Any good MUA 
will use them as well.  Note that in the email world, 'popular' and 'good' 
are mostly disjoint sets :-(


--lyndon

changing Subject header in thread [was Re: Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))]]

[Eric Smith]

Rich Alderson wrote:
> Actually, Mr. Cook, the standard for the last 35 years or so has been to
> change the subject line, with the old subject in SQUARE BRACKETS with the
> characters "was: " prepended.  Any decent newsreader or threading mail
> reader knows how to deal with that, and threading is unbroken.  What was
> broken in the messages about which you complain is the substitution of
> parentheses () for brackets [].

I had no idea that there was a standard. Is it in an RFC or something?

I've commonly seen either parenthesis or square brackets used, and
I've normally used parenthesis myself, but if there's a documented
standard, I'll consider switching.

Ill-considered complaints [was: RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))]

[Rich Alderson]

From: Dale H. Cook
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 9:52 AM

> Please do not change the subject line in a thread. The subject line of
> this thread has been changed twice since it began as "68K Macs with MacOS
> 7.5 still in production use..." When you change a subject line the header
> information concerning the subject is unchanged, and that is what the
> list archives and some email clients go by. There are now three threads
> concerning different subjects archived as one thread at classiccmp.org.
> If you want to change a subject please start a new thread, and if you
> wish you can give the new thread a subject line such as "New Subject (was
> Old Subject)" to reflect its origin.

Actually, Mr. Cook, the standard for the last 35 years or so has been to
change the subject line, with the old subject in SQUARE BRACKETS with the
characters "was: " prepended.  Any decent newsreader or threading mail
reader knows how to deal with that, and threading is unbroken.  What was
broken in the messages about which you complain is the substitution of
parentheses () for brackets [].

See the subject line on this message for an example.

Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:ri...@livingcomputermuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Chuck Guzis]

Earliest networking?  Not telco lines, but hardwired stuff.

I recall that in 1974/75 I was making one of my trips to Control Data
Arden Hills and noticed a backhoe at work digging a trench around the
employee's parking lot in back of the main building.

I asked what was going on and was told that Jim Thornton was
experimenting with high-speed distance networking by laying a couple of
loops of coax around the parking  lot.  Rumor was that he was aiming for
the then-unthinkable speed of 50 Mbit/second.

I don't recall the outcome.

--Chuck

Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[j...@cimmeri.com]

On 9/14/2016 11:04 AM, william degnan 
wrote:

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 11:56 AM, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:




I too started in 1988, doing the same kind of work (mid-Atlantic region,
USA), same number and types of places.  Just to compare:

* Banyan VINES(never saw)
* Corvus  (saw once)
* ARCnet  (saw many times)
* LittleBigLAN(never heard of or saw)
* The $25 Network (never heard of or saw)
* NFS (there were SUNs at the-then NBS (Bureau of Standards)
   (but I rarely encountered UNIX anywhere)

* 3Com 3+Share(saw only one place -- at NASA Goddard)
* Sage MainLAN(never heard of)
* Personl Netware (never saw)
* Netware Lite(never saw)
* DEC Pathworks   (saw only two places -- NASA G and NBS)

Most frequently worked with:
* Netware 3.x&   4.x
* Lantastic
* Windows / Microsoft

- J.




Also a mid-Atlantic alumni...
I started the networking portion of my career in 1987, working at IBM.
Part of my job was to set up Token Ring Network for sales demos (college
intern).   Also Hypercard related networking was big in the late 80's.  Dd
a lot of TCP/IP networking starting in 1992 or so.
Bill


Cool.  I was a big fan of running 
Netware over Token Ring.   But remember 
eventually
just getting crushed by cheap and easier 
to install ethernet.   One of my main 
clients at
the time was on 4mb Token, and we were 
asked for a proposal to speed it up.
16mb Token Ring had just come out, and 
the per-card cost was very high.   Another
vendor proposed with 10mbit ethernet and 
stole the client... despite them having to
ditch the expensive, genuine IBM 4mb 
Token setup (whose wiring could have still
been used for 16mb) and rewire the 
place.   Still bugs me to this day, which is

probably why I'm writing about it now.  :-)

- J.

Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Dale H. Cook]

At 11:56 AM 9/14/2016, js wrote:

>On 9/14/2016 8:50 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>On 14 September 2016 at 03:08, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

Folks -

Please do not change the subject line in a thread. The subject line of this 
thread has been changed twice since it began as "68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still 
in production use..." When you change a subject line the header information 
concerning the subject is unchanged, and that is what the list archives and 
some email clients go by. There are now three threads concerning different 
subjects archived as one thread at classiccmp.org. If you want to change a 
subject please start a new thread, and if you wish you can give the new thread 
a subject line such as "New Subject (was Old Subject)" to reflect its origin.

Dale H. Cook, Contract IT Administrator, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html 

Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Fred Cisin]

Orchid PC-Net

Tallgrass

RE: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[tony duell]

> > * LittleBigLAN(never heard of or saw)
> > * The $25 Network (never heard of or saw)
> 
> Odd... They were sold in the UK as being American imports...

Dare I suggest that perhaps they flopped in the states so they
tried to flog them to us :-)

> I never saw CP/M networked in my life.

I've never seen it in operation, but the Gemini
Galaxy (somewhat based on the Nascom, with
the same bus) had a network option. It was a little
board that hung off the parallel connector on the
CPU board. The one I have had had all the numbers
scratched off the ICs, it took me about 2 minutes 
to realise that the main 40 pin IC was a dumb
UART. The rest of the board was a bit of logic
to interface it to the parallel port, a clock
generator and RS485 buffers.

Wasn't there some kind of network for the
RML380Z and 480Z machines?

Of course the common network in UK schools
in the early 80s was Econet (Acorn's network 
for the BBC micro, Atom, etc).

-tony

Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[Liam Proven]

On 14 September 2016 at 17:56, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:
> I too started in 1988, doing the same kind of work (mid-Atlantic region,
> USA), same number and types of places.  Just to compare:
>
> * Banyan VINES(never saw)
> * Corvus  (saw once)
> * ARCnet  (saw many times)

I honestly don't know what cabling SAGE MainLAN used. It may have been
related. D9 connectors, about 4Mb/s speed?

> * LittleBigLAN(never heard of or saw)
> * The $25 Network (never heard of or saw)

Odd... They were sold in the UK as being American imports...

> * NFS (there were SUNs at the-then NBS (Bureau of Standards)
>   (but I rarely encountered UNIX anywhere)

I put in a load of Xenix and later some SCO Unix boxes running
multiuser accounts, often replacing CCP/M and CDOS systems -- but they
were never networked.

I never saw CP/M networked in my life.

> * 3Com 3+Share(saw only one place -- at NASA Goddard)

Weird. Quite a big product in the UK in the '80s.

> * Sage MainLAN(never heard of)

SAGE -- British accountancy s/w company. US tax law is different;
Brits can't use US financial or accounts s/w. Gave an opening for UK
players to get big.

> * Personl Netware (never saw)

Typo for "Personal" of course.

Wasn't big here.

> * Netware Lite(never saw)

Ditto.

One of 'em was bundled with Novell DOS 6 or 7. I forget which. That
gave it a boost but it was a PITA to configure. Already, by then,
people were mainly shipping NDIS drivers for WfWg which _did_ work but
in a painful way and wasted a ton of RAM.

> * DEC Pathworks   (saw only two places -- NASA G and NBS)

It wasn't big but a lot of VAX users ran it. It bundled a ton of
useful stuff from email to X.11 servers, but it was as slow as hell,
burned RAM and was a pig to configure. Never played nice with WfWg.

> Most frequently worked with:
> * Netware 3.x&  4.x

2 and 3 here. 4 was the beginning of the end.  It foisted mandatory
NDS on a million single-served microbusinesses who had no need for it,
and the needless complexity and pain killed the product. Most
egregious case of corporate suicide I ever saw.

> * Lantastic

I forgot that. I think I saw that very occasionally.

> * Windows / Microsoft

Well, yes.


-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[william degnan]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 11:56 AM, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:

>
>
>
> I too started in 1988, doing the same kind of work (mid-Atlantic region,
> USA), same number and types of places.  Just to compare:
>
> * Banyan VINES(never saw)
> * Corvus  (saw once)
> * ARCnet  (saw many times)
> * LittleBigLAN(never heard of or saw)
> * The $25 Network (never heard of or saw)
> * NFS (there were SUNs at the-then NBS (Bureau of Standards)
>   (but I rarely encountered UNIX anywhere)
>
> * 3Com 3+Share(saw only one place -- at NASA Goddard)
> * Sage MainLAN(never heard of)
> * Personl Netware (never saw)
> * Netware Lite(never saw)
> * DEC Pathworks   (saw only two places -- NASA G and NBS)
>
> Most frequently worked with:
> * Netware 3.x&  4.x
> * Lantastic
> * Windows / Microsoft
>
> - J.
>
>
>
Also a mid-Atlantic alumni...
I started the networking portion of my career in 1987, working at IBM.
Part of my job was to set up Token Ring Network for sales demos (college
intern).   Also Hypercard related networking was big in the late 80's.  Dd
a lot of TCP/IP networking starting in 1992 or so.
Bill

Re: early networking (was Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...))

[j...@cimmeri.com]

On 9/14/2016 8:50 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

On 14 September 2016 at 03:08, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

There were networking packages for the PC early on.  Remember Banyan? They date 
from 1985. Corvus?  Even Datapoint had an ARCnet facility for PCs in 1984. 
Quite a few vendors had 802.3 capability.  Networking, however disorganized, 
was a very hot thing by 1987.


This is quite interesting in terms of an Europe/NorAm divide.

I entered the business in 1988. After 25y in support, working on
thousands of systems in half a dozen countries, from 2-man outfits to
multi-billion-dollar multinationals, no, I never ever saw any systems
whatsoever running:
* Banyan VINES
* Corvus
* ARCnet
* LittleBigLAN
* The $25 Network

(Obviously, I've heard of them.)

To this day, I have never once used any form of NFS or ever seen it in use.

However, I routinely worked with:
* 3Com 3+Share
* Sage MainLAN
* Personal Netware
* Netware Lite
* DEC Pathworks

Most of these never seem to get mentioned in Stateside comms.

Odd.



I too started in 1988, doing the same kind of work (mid-Atlantic region, USA), 
same number and types of places.  Just to compare:

* Banyan VINES(never saw)
* Corvus  (saw once)
* ARCnet  (saw many times)
* LittleBigLAN(never heard of or saw)
* The $25 Network (never heard of or saw)
* NFS (there were SUNs at the-then NBS (Bureau of Standards)
  (but I rarely encountered UNIX anywhere)

* 3Com 3+Share(saw only one place -- at NASA Goddard)
* Sage MainLAN(never heard of)
* Personl Netware (never saw)
* Netware Lite(never saw)
* DEC Pathworks   (saw only two places -- NASA G and NBS)

Most frequently worked with:
* Netware 3.x&  4.x
* Lantastic
* Windows / Microsoft

- J.