Re: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 3:45 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk 
wrote:

> IBM invented the 8" floppy disk format. Generally their disks follow the
> standard 3740 format.
>

True for anything you're likely to encounter in the "real world", but in
the interest of muddying the waters I'll point out that IBM's _first_
floppy drives, used for microcode load on big iron, were NOT even remotely
compatible with the later 3740 and succesors. The disk was the same
physical size, but the index hole was near the edge of the disk, rather
than near the spindle. They spun at 90 RPM rather than 360, and were
read-only.  (Obviously IBM had some drives that could write that format,
but they didn't provide them to customers.)

I think it's a safe bet that the 4331 microcode disks do NOT use that
format. Guy would have noticed if the diskettes didn't look like "normal"
8-inchers.

Re: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk]

Thanks Lyle.

My biggest impediment at the moment is not actually having a PC that has a 
floppy
drive.  :-o

The other is time…work has been crazy as indicated by Jensen’s CES keynote
tonight where the chip that I’ve been working on was just announced!  yea!
9,000,000,000 transistors!

TTFN - Guy



> On Jan 7, 2018, at 10:33 PM, Lyle Bickley  wrote:
> 
> Hi Guy,
> 
> I just copied several IBM 8" Maintenance Device (MD) Diskettes - and
> verified that the copies work on the IBM MD. They seem to be in an IBM
> 3x0 format (with a standard IBM VTOC).
> 
> Track 0 on the diskettes is 128 byte sectors,
> Tracks 1 through 76 are 256 byte sectors.
> The diskettes are DSSD.
> 
> (So you need a Shugart 850/851 (or equivalent) to make the copies).
> 
> I used both Teledisk and IMD - and both successfully captured and
> re-created the diskettes correctly.
> 
> More in editing IBM images later...
> 
> Cheers,
> Lyle
> 
> 
> On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 11:52:56 -0800
> Guy Sotomayor via cctalk  wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would
>> somehow like to image them so: a) I have backups in case the floppies
>> themselves go bad b) be able to investigate their contents in case I
>> have to “merge” the contents of multiple floppies to make a single
>> good one
>> 
>> These are all 8” diskettes.
>> 
>> The complicating factors in all of this are:
>> a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
>> b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
>> c) not sure what the “on-disk” structure looks like
>> d) the only 8” diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC)
>> equipment
>> 
>> Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> TTFN - Guy
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 73  AF6WS
> Bickley Consulting West Inc.
> http://bickleywest.com
> 
> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

Re: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Lyle Bickley via cctalk]

Hi Guy,

I just copied several IBM 8" Maintenance Device (MD) Diskettes - and
verified that the copies work on the IBM MD. They seem to be in an IBM
3x0 format (with a standard IBM VTOC).

Track 0 on the diskettes is 128 byte sectors,
Tracks 1 through 76 are 256 byte sectors.
The diskettes are DSSD.

(So you need a Shugart 850/851 (or equivalent) to make the copies).

I used both Teledisk and IMD - and both successfully captured and
re-created the diskettes correctly.

More in editing IBM images later...

Cheers,
Lyle


On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 11:52:56 -0800
Guy Sotomayor via cctalk  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would
> somehow like to image them so: a) I have backups in case the floppies
> themselves go bad b) be able to investigate their contents in case I
> have to “merge” the contents of multiple floppies to make a single
> good one
> 
> These are all 8” diskettes.
> 
> The complicating factors in all of this are:
> a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
> b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
> c) not sure what the “on-disk” structure looks like
> d) the only 8” diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC)
> equipment
> 
> Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> TTFN - Guy
> 



-- 
73  AF6WS
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

Re: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk]

> On Jan 6, 2018, at 2:42 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson
>> via cctalk
>> Sent: 06 January 2018 02:50
>> To: Guy Sotomayor <g...@shiresoft.com>; gene...@ezwind.net;
>> discuss...@ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: Re: non-PC Floppy imaging
>> 
>> On 01/05/2018 01:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would
>> somehow like to image them so:
>>> a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
>>> b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to “merge” the
>> contents of multiple floppies to
>>>  make a single good one
>>> 
>>> 
>> Any possibility the 4331 can write to a floppy?  I know next to nothing of 
>> this
>> hardware.  But, I know the VAX 11/780 really well. You could make copies of
>> its console floppy on that drive, once the OS was up.
>> 
> 
> Yes it can, it writes error log data to the floppy. It’s a pity most of the 
> operating guides to the 43xx boxes are lost which would be usefull as they 
> will have instructions on how to back up the diskettes,

I was reading that last night (as well as the CE being able to “patch” the 
uCode and save it on the floppy).

I have an entire FE cart (both sides) full of manuals for various parts of my 
4331 (and peripherals).  I haven’t looked through all of them (including 
various other manuals in a several foot long holder) to see if there’s an 
operating guide in there or not.

TTFN - Guy

RE: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson
> via cctalk
> Sent: 06 January 2018 02:50
> To: Guy Sotomayor <g...@shiresoft.com>; gene...@ezwind.net;
> discuss...@ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: non-PC Floppy imaging
> 
> On 01/05/2018 01:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would
> somehow like to image them so:
> > a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
> > b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to “merge” the
> contents of multiple floppies to
> >   make a single good one
> >
> >
> Any possibility the 4331 can write to a floppy?  I know next to nothing of 
> this
> hardware.  But, I know the VAX 11/780 really well. You could make copies of
> its console floppy on that drive, once the OS was up.
> 

Yes it can, it writes error log data to the floppy. It’s a pity most of the 
operating guides to the 43xx boxes are lost which would be usefull as they will 
have instructions on how to back up the diskettes,

> Jon

Dave

Re: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 01/05/2018 01:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:

Hi,

I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would somehow like 
to image them so:
a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to “merge” the contents 
of multiple floppies to
  make a single good one


Any possibility the 4331 can write to a floppy?  I know next 
to nothing of this hardware.  But, I know the VAX 11/780 
really well. You could make copies of its console floppy on 
that drive, once the OS was up.


Jon

Re: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 01/05/2018 02:45 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
>
> IBM invented the 8" floppy disk format. Generally their disks follow the 
> standard 3740 format.  I would try that first.
> 
> https://ub.fnwi.uva.nl/computermuseum/diskettes.html
> 

I've got a pretty good pile of IBM 8" disks,from System/3 to
Displaywriter.  If you've got a PC hooked to a standard drive that can
handle FM recording, you're good with IMD and a few other packages.

If you've got any of the 8" "magazines", they open easily and the disks
are straightforward 8" floppies.

--Chuck

RE: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy
> Sotomayor via cctalk
> Sent: 05 January 2018 19:53
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: non-PC Floppy imaging
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would somehow
> like to image them so:
> a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
> b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to “merge” the
> contents of multiple floppies to
>  make a single good one
> 
> These are all 8” diskettes.
> 
> The complicating factors in all of this are:
> a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
> b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
> c) not sure what the “on-disk” structure looks like
> d) the only 8” diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment
> 
> Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
> 

IBM invented the 8" floppy disk format. Generally their disks follow the 
standard 3740 format.  I would try that first.

https://ub.fnwi.uva.nl/computermuseum/diskettes.html


> Thanks.
> 
> TTFN - Guy

Dave

Re: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

On 2018-01-05 4:08 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


Hi,

I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would somehow
like to image them so:
a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to “merge” the
contents of multiple floppies to
  make a single good one

These are all 8” diskettes.

The complicating factors in all of this are:
a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
c) not sure what the “on-disk” structure looks like
d) the only 8” diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment

Any ideas/comments would be welcome.



As far as backing up the floppies, I used ImageDisk with an 8" Shugart 850
hooked up to a PC to image and duplicate the microcode floppies for the
43xx machines we have at the museum.  It works quite well.  Obviously this
would require you to pick up a "new" 8" drive (I've no experience with IBM
8" drives, but I wager they're not going to "just work" with a PC FDC.)

The IMD tools come with an image viewer that can translate EBCDIC, though
you'll probably want something more advanced to actually modify/splice
things.

- Josh



Thanks.

TTFN - Guy


the IBM manufactured 8" drives are not going to work on a PC the signals 
on the interfaces are quite different and there is no track zero signal, 
in IBM systems when they initialized they did enough down steps to  
ensure head was at track zero.  Anyone that has heard a 33FD drive seek 
zero will remember the sound that they made when the carriage hammered 
on the down stop, the problem was the stop would break off and the 
carriage would go below track zero.  There where some 8" drive 
assemblies manufactured for AS/400 that do use drives with and "industry 
standard" interface I recently saw an external one for sale on eBay.


Paul.

Re: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Josh Dersch via cctalk]

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would somehow
> like to image them so:
> a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
> b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to “merge” the
> contents of multiple floppies to
>  make a single good one
>
> These are all 8” diskettes.
>
> The complicating factors in all of this are:
> a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
> b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
> c) not sure what the “on-disk” structure looks like
> d) the only 8” diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment
>
> Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
>


As far as backing up the floppies, I used ImageDisk with an 8" Shugart 850
hooked up to a PC to image and duplicate the microcode floppies for the
43xx machines we have at the museum.  It works quite well.  Obviously this
would require you to pick up a "new" 8" drive (I've no experience with IBM
8" drives, but I wager they're not going to "just work" with a PC FDC.)

The IMD tools come with an image viewer that can translate EBCDIC, though
you'll probably want something more advanced to actually modify/splice
things.

- Josh


>
> Thanks.
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>

Re: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Richard Cini via cctalk]

I don’t know much about the system itself but if it used one of 
the typical IBM 8” diskette formats, you may be able to use IMD or Teledisk and 
an appropriate multi-density floppy controller. I’ve had pretty good success 
with those two programs. 



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On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 2:56 PM -0500, "Warner Losh via cctalk" 
 wrote:










On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would somehow
> like to image them so:
> a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
> b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to “merge” the
> contents of multiple floppies to
>  make a single good one
>
> These are all 8” diskettes.
>
> The complicating factors in all of this are:
> a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
> b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
> c) not sure what the “on-disk” structure looks like
> d) the only 8” diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment
>
> Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
>

I love the imaging capabilities of kryoflux (http://www.kyroflux.com/).
You'd have to remove the 8" floppy from the IBM and connect it to the
kyroflux to do the imaging.

Warner

Re: non-PC Floppy imaging

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would somehow
> like to image them so:
> a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
> b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to “merge” the
> contents of multiple floppies to
>  make a single good one
>
> These are all 8” diskettes.
>
> The complicating factors in all of this are:
> a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
> b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
> c) not sure what the “on-disk” structure looks like
> d) the only 8” diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment
>
> Any ideas/comments would be welcome.
>

I love the imaging capabilities of kryoflux (http://www.kyroflux.com/).
You'd have to remove the 8" floppy from the IBM and connect it to the
kyroflux to do the imaging.

Warner

non-PC Floppy imaging

[Guy Sotomayor via cctalk]

Hi,

I now have a number of uCode diskettes for my IBM 4331.  I would somehow like 
to image them so:
a) I have backups in case the floppies themselves go bad
b) be able to investigate their contents in case I have to “merge” the contents 
of multiple floppies to
 make a single good one

These are all 8” diskettes.

The complicating factors in all of this are:
a) any text (e.g. strings) are going to be in EBCDIC rather than ASCII
b) each uCode diskette was presumably serialized to the CPU it was for
c) not sure what the “on-disk” structure looks like
d) the only 8” diskette drives that I have are in IBM (non-PC) equipment

Any ideas/comments would be welcome.

Thanks.

TTFN - Guy