Re: BD-R formatting help
Thomas Schmitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, When it is finished you can definitely tell where the burn approached the scratch and kind of skipped over it and moved to the next viable area. Interesting. How did it know in advance where the bad sectors are before trying to write to them ? But how did you manage to engage Defect Management ? Did i miss the solution of the formatting riddle ? The way I understand the problem, you will not get benefits from setting up spare areas for a BD-R that is written in a single shot. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
maybe you missed the _point_ of the riddle Indeed. I was not aware of that. Did you post the READ FORMAT CAPACITIES: of a dvd+rw-mediainfo run on such a media ? I remember to have seen some which report unformatted as state and offer some formatting descriptors. (None with 4 GB, though.) No, but BD-R[E] format capacity descriptors are more like guidelines. Specification permits you to specify any value between minimum and maximum (which you find among descriptors returned by the unit) with granularity of 256 clusters. Indeed, here is output for media formatted with -ssa=4G: INQUIRY:[MATSHITA][BD-MLT SW-5582 ][BZE6] GET [CURRENT] CONFIGURATION: Mounted Media: 41h, BD-R SRM+POW Media ID: PHILIP/R02 BD SPARE AREA INFORMATION: Spare Area:999424/1998848=50.0% free POW RESOURCES INFORMATION: Remaining Replacements:16843040 Remaining Map Entries: 0 Remaining Updates: 0 READ DISC INFORMATION: Disc status: appendable Number of Sessions:1 State of Last Session: empty Next Track: 1 Number of Tracks: 1 READ TRACK INFORMATION[#1]: Track State: invisible incremental Track Start Address: 0*2KB Next Writable Address: 0*2KB Free Blocks: 10220544*2KB Track Size:10220544*2KB FABRICATED TOC: Track#1 : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Track#AA : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Multi-session Info:[EMAIL PROTECTED] READ CAPACITY: 10220544*2048=20931674112 Compare to descriptors offered for blank media: READ FORMAT CAPACITIES: unformatted: 12219392*2048=25025314816 00h(3000): 11826176*2048=24220008448 32h(0):11826176*2048=24220008448 32h(0):5796864*2048=11871977472 32h(0):12088320*2048=24756879360 Note READ CAPACITY return value being off by ~4GB from unformatted. A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
When it is finished you can definitely tell where the burn approached the scratch and kind of skipped over it and moved to the next viable area. Interesting. How did it know in advance where the bad sectors are before trying to write to them ? But how did you manage to engage Defect Management ? Did i miss the solution of the formatting riddle ? The way I understand the problem, you will not get benefits from setting up spare areas for a BD-R that is written in a single shot. This is wrong understanding. A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Releases turned to be feature driven lately and as no new features were required (e.g. HD-DVD was dismissed) I had no immediate plans so far. But as option to specify TDMA allocation is of apparent interest, it might be appropriate to consider release in foreseeable future, i.e. from week to month. Ok, I'll try to keep my eyes open for it. Do you do an announce on this list? Yes. [Don't kill the messenger...] Yes. The real problem is that we don't know how TDMA is used exactly and therefore it's hard to judge if it's excessive or not. It surely varies from application to application and it might be that for your purposes (I assume you pretty much fill the media up at once) it's absolutely excessive. Best is to ask vendor for recommendation. I can't say for anyone else, but in my case, I would say that half is excessive. Which is why I said that option to specify TDMA reservation size is of *apparent* interest ;-) A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: BD-R formatting help
Thomas Schmitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, maybe you missed the _point_ of the riddle Indeed. I was not aware of that. Did you post the READ FORMAT CAPACITIES: He used a very old cdrecord to read the data and for this reason, the mail did not include all information. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Hi, Andy Polyakov wrote: BD-R[E] format capacity descriptors are more like guidelines. Specification permits you to specify any value between minimum and maximum ... Indeed, here is output for media formatted with -ssa=4G: Thanks for the info. It will be very interesting to explore BD-R as soon as i get my hands on a drive and a few media. Is my impression right that their sequential personality is much like DVD+R ? Joerg Schilling wrote: The way I understand the problem, you will not get benefits from setting up spare areas for a BD-R that is written in a single shot. Andy Polyakov wrote: This is wrong understanding. My understanding from specs is that it is Defect Management. I.e. the drive will write a portion of its buffer to media. Then it will checkread as long as the data is still in the buffer. If a read error occurs, then it will take relocation measures and write the content again from buffer to Spare Area. The checkread usually cuts write speed by half. This (my) understanding of MMC-5 makes me wonder why Matt's burner worked around the scratch rather than running into it and to replace the casualties by spare sectors. Did it examine the blank media for damages ? Matt: Did you scratch before or after formatting ? Have a nice day :) Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Joerg Schilling wrote: maybe you missed the _point_ of the riddle Indeed. I was not aware of that. Did you post the READ FORMAT CAPACITIES: He used a very old cdrecord to read the data and for this reason, the mail did not include all information That may be, but it also did not include that information because it was not sent prior to today. Matt Schulte Commtech, Inc. Voice: 316-636-1131 Fax: 316-636-1163 http://www.commtech-fastcom.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Thomas Schmitt wrote: Indeed. I was not aware of that. Did you post the READ FORMAT CAPACITIES: of a dvd+rw-mediainfo run on such a media ? NO, but if you'd like to see it, here it is. Matt Schulte Commtech, Inc. Voice: 316-636-1131 Fax: 316-636-1163 http://www.commtech-fastcom.com INQUIRY:[MATSHITA][BD-MLT SW-5582 ][BZE6] GET [CURRENT] CONFIGURATION: Mounted Media: 41h, BD-R SRM+POW Media ID: PHILIP/R02 Current Write Speed: 2.0x4495=8991KB/s Write Speed #0:2.0x4495=8991KB/s Write Speed #1:1.0x4495=4496KB/s Speed Descriptor#0:01/12088319 [EMAIL PROTECTED]/s [EMAIL PROTECTED]/s Speed Descriptor#1:01/12088319 [EMAIL PROTECTED]/s [EMAIL PROTECTED]/s BD SPARE AREA INFORMATION: Spare Area:60736/131072=46.3% free POW RESOURCES INFORMATION: Remaining Replacements:16843296 Remaining Map Entries: 0 Remaining Updates: 0 READ DISC INFORMATION: Disc status: appendable Number of Sessions:1 State of Last Session: incomplete Next Track: 1 Number of Tracks: 2 READ TRACK INFORMATION[#1]: Track State: partial incremental Track Start Address: 0*2KB Free Blocks: 0*2KB Track Size:12058848*2KB READ TRACK INFORMATION[#2]: Track State: complete incremental Track Start Address: 12058848*2KB Free Blocks: 0*2KB Track Size:29472*2KB FABRICATED TOC: Track#1 : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Track#AA : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Multi-session Info:[EMAIL PROTECTED] READ CAPACITY: 12088320*2048=24756879360
Re: BD-R formatting help
Joerg Schilling wrote: He used a very old cdrecord to read the data and for this reason, the mail did not include all information My cdrecord reports that it is build 2.01.01a33. Exactly what version do you think I should be using? Matt Schulte Commtech, Inc. Voice: 316-636-1131 Fax: 316-636-1163 http://www.commtech-fastcom.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Joerg Schilling wrote: The way I understand the problem, you will not get benefits from setting up spare areas for a BD-R that is written in a single shot. Jörg That would be the wrong way to look at the problem. If you burn in the mode that is Live Verify it will absolutely make a difference! Matt Schulte Commtech, Inc. Voice: 316-636-1131 Fax: 316-636-1163 http://www.commtech-fastcom.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Thomas Schmitt wrote: My understanding from specs is that it is Defect Management. I.e. the drive will write a portion of its buffer to media. Then it will checkread as long as the data is still in the buffer. If a read error occurs, then it will take relocation measures and write the content again from buffer to Spare Area. The checkread usually cuts write speed by half. Exactly. It does cut the speed in half (because it is reading and writing all of the data) but when your data is important or when the media is expensive, you don't want to throw away the disc on a bad burn like you would with a DVD that didn't verify after the burn. This (my) understanding of MMC-5 makes me wonder why Matt's burner worked around the scratch rather than running into it and to replace the casualties by spare sectors. Did it examine the blank media for damages ? Matt: Did you scratch before or after formatting ? Ok, I suppose your words are a better explanation of what happened. It burned all the way up to the scratch and must have relocated the data to the spare and continued to the burn. I don't mean to say that it located the bad spot before hand. It found it when it tried to read back the scratched area and failed. Matt Schulte Commtech, Inc. Voice: 316-636-1131 Fax: 316-636-1163 http://www.commtech-fastcom.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Customer Service [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: He used a very old cdrecord to read the data and for this reason, the mail did not include all information My cdrecord reports that it is build 2.01.01a33. The latest version is a53. a33 is from August 2007 Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Andy: I sent you a couple of messages off the list, did you get them? Matt Schulte Commtech, Inc. Voice: 316-636-1131 Fax: 316-636-1163 http://www.commtech-fastcom.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Hi, Matt Schulte wrote: I don't mean to say that it located the bad spot before hand. I understood your report of yesterday that there is a visible difference on the surface of the recorded media caused by the scratch. (Like a ring of different reflectivity or so.) This would have indicated that not the same kind of writing happened to the affected area. And that would have implied foresight. It is not impossible that the media knows about the scratch if it was encountered already during formatting. Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:43:30 -0600 When it is finished you can definitely tell where the burn approached the scratch and kind of skipped over it and moved to the next viable area. It is really a nice visual. Problem is 1mm is kind of hard to image and I was looking to make a bigger scratch. So how did you learn about the triggering of the defect handler ? Except by this from your dvd+rw-mediainfo run: BD SPARE AREA INFORMATION: Spare Area:60736/131072=46.3% free I assume it was 50 % before. About 9 to 10 MB would be consumed then. Have a nice day :) Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Is my impression right that their sequential personality is much like DVD+R ? Yes, but with optional +POW twist (see my Blu-ray page). My understanding from specs is that it is Defect Management. I.e. the drive will write a portion of its buffer to media. Then it will checkread as long as the data is still in the buffer. If a read error occurs, then it will take relocation measures and write the content again from buffer to Spare Area. The checkread usually cuts write speed by half. Correct. Did it examine the blank media for damages ? No, BD-R can't do that. Prior verification or how they call it full certification can be applied to BD-RE only [naturally]. A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Hi, Yes, but with optional +POW twist (see my Blu-ray page). Plus the code of your tools :)) But doesn't the POW gesture make session 1 unmountable as soon as a further session is recorded ? Even on a drive which would recognize and handle multi-session ? Accessing older sessions is helpful with incremental backups. With overwriteables i write the first session to LBA 32 and do the patching of LBA 0 to 31 already with that first session. An interested reader can mount -o sbsector=32 and thus access session 1 even if LBA 0 to 31 gets overwritten later. All other sessions can easily be found by our NWA rounding (you 16, me 32). They form a nice chain. I could imagine that this would work with BD-R POW too. Hopping over the orphans will make scanning for sessions more cumbersome. This would apply to drives which would need your POW patching. For a multi session drive one would just have to know that the real session 1 starts at LBA 32 and that the Volume Descriptors at LBA 0 point to the newest session. Have a nice day :) Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Hi, It is as if it burned up to the scratch, hopped over it, and started burning again. Eww. Do we know how Logical Block Addresses map to real dye spots geometrically ? That's not in MMC. Unless one could assume that the Physical Adresses really form a simple chain of media imprints. But i doubt that. Andy Polyakov's BD-R wrote: BD SPARE AREA INFORMATION: Spare Area:999424/1998848=50.0% free Matt Schulte's BD-R wrote: BD SPARE AREA INFORMATION: Spare Area:60736/131072=46.3% free I wrote: I assume it was 50 % before. About 9 to 10 MB would be consumed then Matt Schulte wrote: I don't think I understand this question. I scratched the media, then burned my data. We seem to get in sync now (slowly): There is a visible difference in the dye and the report of your dvd+rw-mediainfo run indicates that probably 10 MB of spare have been used to protect you from data loss. (Whatever this other 50 % reservation is good for.) So if one can dare to make a linear extrapolation you should be able to compensate 10 millimeters of scratch before the spare area gets near to be exhausted. Unfortunately it has been about two years since I created this disc. Did you test whether your burner is still able to format a BD-R to default spare size ? Have a nice day :) Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
But doesn't the POW gesture make session 1 unmountable as soon as a further session is recorded ? ??? Why should it? It's just that last- and first-session mounts will be equivalent. Even on a drive which would recognize and handle multi-session ? First session effectively grows and it has nothing to do with drive recognizing multi-session. As you hinted yourself, -o sbsector=16 works even when drive handles multi-session. Accessing older sessions is helpful with incremental backups. Then you want to format for SRM-POW (SRM minus POW, i.e. *without* POW), in which case it will behave exactly as multi-session write-once. As mentioned on the page SRM+POW is chosen as default to maintain broadest accessibility by making all the data available even in non-multi-session aware OSes. With overwriteables i write the first session to LBA 32 and do the patching of LBA 0 to 31 already with that first session. An interested reader can mount -o sbsector=32 and thus access session 1 even if LBA 0 to 31 gets overwritten later. Cool. All other sessions can easily be found by our NWA rounding (you 16, me 32). They form a nice chain. I could imagine that this would work with BD-R POW too. Yes it would. Except that other sessions would have to be identified by looking at track start addresses instead of volume size round ups. Hopping over the orphans will make scanning for sessions more cumbersome. This would apply to drives which would need your POW patching. Drives don't need it! Some OSes would. Or I misunderstood the question, in which case please rephrase. A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Joerg Schilling wrote: Customer Service [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: He used a very old cdrecord to read the data and for this reason, the mail did not include all information My cdrecord reports that it is build 2.01.01a33. The latest version is a53. a33 is from August 2007 Ok, I've got your new build, what exactly do you want to see? I've sent quite a few info files at this point and I'd rather not redo all of them. Matt Schulte Commtech, Inc. Voice: 316-636-1131 Fax: 316-636-1163 http://www.commtech-fastcom.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Hi, It's just that last- and first-session mounts will be equivalent. Yes. And thus the real first session will not be mountable because its volume descriptors are overwritten. First session effectively grows and it has nothing to do with drive recognizing multi-session. So you leave the track open ? I assumed you fork a new track, write the session, use POW to patch LBA 0 to 31 and then close the track. (I did not examine growisofs.c for that, i have to confess.) With overwriteables i write the first session to LBA 32 Cool. You can do this easily with mkisofs too: -C 0,32 (but no -M) Just start writing at LBA 32 and do the LBA 0 patching when the session is done. More is not needed. Well, maybe a dvd+rw-toc command. xorriso would do that for growisofs too. It has an alias name especially for that: export MKISOFS=xorrisofs growisofs -Z /dev/dvd /some/files growisofs -M /dev/dvd /more/files Emulation of -C goes up to the -C 16,x bug. :)) Even incremental backups are possible: growisofs -Z /dev/dvd -- outdev - -update_r /my/files /files growisofs -M /dev/dvd -- outdev - -update_r /my/files /files (Btw: would it be possible to lift the ban on options like -outdev, -overwrite, -options_from_file, ... ? They all are mistaken for -o.) other sessions would have to be identified by looking at track start addresses instead of volume size round ups. I assume there is a regular pattern of gaps between two sessions. And even if not: one can scan for ISO 9660 heads quite effectively. I got a brain damaged DVD-ROM drive which cannot recognize multi-session DVD-R or DVD+R. But with a generous gap estimation of 16 MB i can collect a Table Of Content anyway. Drives don't need it! Some OSes would. Aha. I extrapolated the brain damaged DVD drives to brain damaged BD-ROM drives. My fault. Whatever, to save the mount entry of session 1 seems worthwhile if it is possible. Sessions 2 can then be found after the end of session 1 since the PVD of session 1 is at LBA 48 and tells how long session 1 was. Then we hop over the orphan gap, round up to the next 32 blocks and should find the next System Area and Volume Descriptors. (Naively spoken, i confess. It is about replaying NWA generation.) A remark about http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/Blu-ray/ Your text can make the reader believe that POW consumes Spares. But it messes up the logical address space instead. (If you write to an orphan then you create a new orphan. Cough.) MMC-5 4.5.3.5.4.1: When a SRM disc has the POW capability, the Logical Overwrite of a Cluster is redirected to the NWA of some open Logical Track Only information about the redirections is stored in the Defect List. Have a nice day :) Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Thomas Schmitt wrote: Unfortunately it has been about two years since I created this disc. Did you test whether your burner is still able to format a BD-R to default spare size ? No, I haven't done it again, I'm trying not to throw away *too* many of these darn expensive discs. It would appear that dvd+rw-format has never been able to format a BD-R, as currently if you put ssa=anything with a BD-R disc, it will fail. That would mean that when I did it the last time, I used growisofs which itself performs a format (I am not sure whether it is as it goes or whether it is just done at the beginning of the burn). Probably something like: -use-the-force-luke=spare:min,wrvfy Matt Schulte Commtech, Inc. Voice: 316-636-1131 Fax: 316-636-1163 http://www.commtech-fastcom.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Hi, It would appear that dvd+rw-format has never been able to format a BD-R That would mean that when I did it the last time, I used growisofs which itself performs a format Still questionable whether there is enough difference between both FORMAT commands to explain the difference in success on both BD-R discs. I'm trying not to throw away *too* many of these darn expensive discs. Hey. Your boss could afford a BD burner two years ago ! It must have cost a little fortune. ;) You could combine a test of growisofs auto-format with the 10 mm scratch test. If it formats then the scratch will become illustrative. If it does not format, then you will test how bad a 10 mm scratch is with a BD-R that has no Defect Management. So give it a double dozen GB of data to eat. Have a nice day :) Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
