Re: BD-R formatting help
Hi, SRM+POW recordings are *not*. SRM+POW recordings are multi-track, but not multi-session. Meaning that even multi-session aware OS will look for volume descriptor at LBA#16 for SRM+POW recording. [...] I leave session open in SRM+POW [...] appropriate to refer to recording as increment, not session, in SRM+POW So it is very similar to our layouts on overwriteable media. Except that the NWA is prescribed by the new track and not at the discretion of the burn program. (MMC advises to use the track provided NWA in 4.5.3.6.9 The Expanding Orphanage.) I have to split the meaning of Session for clarity. There are no MMC-sessions on overwriteables and on BD-R+POW (as written by growisofs). But there are ISO-sessions or Volumes which get generated as if they were to be appended to MMC-multi-session media. (This stems from ISO 9660 on CD-R, after all.) We simply seem to assign different meanings to mountable in the context. To me mountable is mere validity/sanity of volume descriptor and to you is access to first recording. Let's call it muted instead, in which case answer is yes, 1st recording will become muted. Sanity is restored. I would rather say beheaded than muted. :) Pity is treason, Robespierre. I plead for keeping the ISO-sessions distinguishable in order to allow to mount the older states of the (pseudo-)multi-session media. There is only one thing missing in the current doings of growisofs: the persistent copy of the Volume Descriptors of the initial ISO-session. All other ISO-sessions stay reachable because their descriptors do not get overwritten later. One only has to find them. This allows to present the user with a uniform view on multi-session ISO burning quite regardless of the media type. growisofs already provides much of that uniformity. But with session history the media classes differ visibly and sometimes painfully. (Imagine you know there is the old unspoiled file content on media but you cannot access it because a new ISO-session was added and overwrote it by the spoiled content.) So on BD-R +POW and the first session i would propose to write 32 dummy sectors, then the ISO image which was prepared by -C 0,32, and then to overwrite the dummies by a patch copy from LBA 32++. (Or write the patched 32 sectors already before the image gets written. You'd spare one cluster of orphans that way. The dummy method should be more like the current procedure, though.) --- For reference, according to READ TRACK INFORMATION end of any given track coincides with start of next one. Now this is a riddle. From where did POW take the clusters which replaced the old LBA 0 clusters ? The specs say the Logical Overwrite of a Cluster is redirected to the NWA of some open Logical Track. A SRM disc with POW shall be initialized by the formatting process as a single session disc with a single Logical Track. The latter statement seems to forbid your track structure. Duh ? Anyway. If there is only one open track then the cluster had to be taken from its NWA. If you start the next track and inquire its NWA then i'd expect it skips the orphaned cluster address. If it would use the orphan LBA for the start of a sequential write, then an avalanche of orphans would hit the Defect List. Maybe the firmware programmers have decided to forget about the MMC prescription and to feed POW by spares and not by orphans ?i It seem so much more natural. Just not as usable for bulk overwrites. --- export MKISOFS=xorrisofs to lift the ban on options like -outdev, Cool. I have to consider it... Another help for xorriso would be if you added option -o - to the mkisofs run. Other than mkisofs there are legal states without output drive in xorriso. So whenever the user escapes the mkisofs emulation in a growisofs run, the first duty is to set -outdev -. If you gave -o - in the mkisofs part then this would not be needed. The possibility to leave the mkisofs emulation depends on growisofs current habit to write its own mkisofs options only at the start of the argument list. If you ever change this, then this trick will fail. I would have to ask you for a xorriso mode in growisofs then: mkisofs -M $indev -C $msc1,$msc2 -o $outdev is equivalent to xorriso -indev stdio:$indev \ -load sbsector $msc1 -grow_blindly $msc2 \ -outdev stdio:$outdev Currently your use of the mkisofs CLI seems to be suitable enough. As always: Thanks for your guidance ! Have a nice day :) Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Thomas Schmitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So you leave the track open ? I assumed you fork a new track, write the session, use POW to patch LBA 0 to 31 and then close the track. (I did not examine growisofs.c for that, i have to confess.) With overwriteables i write the first session to LBA 32 Cool. You can do this easily with mkisofs too: -C 0,32 (but no -M) Just start writing at LBA 32 and do the LBA 0 patching when the session is done. More is not needed. Well, maybe a dvd+rw-toc command. This is a bad advise as it will not work with UDF enabled. BTW: The reason why I call the multi-session method used by growisofs a dirty trick is because it destroys the first session in case you append another session. BTW: what advantage do you expect from using your xorrisofs instead of mkisofs? Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
It's just that last- and first-session mounts will be equivalent. Apparently we have to rewind the discussion a bit, because there is one thing I said/implied that was *wrong*. Sorry. Rewind backwards to the question about if BD-R is like DVD+R. I said yes, with POW twist and then discussion went on to multi-sessioning and I erroneously implied that all BD-R recordings performed by growisofs are multi-session. Only SRM and SRM-POW recordings are, SRM+POW recordings are *not*. SRM+POW recordings are multi-track, but not multi-session. Meaning that even multi-session aware OS will look for volume descriptor at LBA#16 for SRM+POW recording. What I implied was that multi-session aware OS would look for volume descriptor in the last recorded increment, while none multi-session aware one - at LBA#16, which is wrong. SRM+POW recordings *performed by growisofs* appear single-session to all OSes. There was a number of factors affecting this decision and I reckoned this is the most reliable/sensible way to make whole data accessible in widest range of OSes [modulo possible bugs]. There are other possible working options, but the SRM+POW method implemented by growisofs appeared, once again, *most sensible*. Yes. And thus the real first session will not be mountable because its volume descriptors are overwritten. We simply seem to assign different meanings to mountable in the context. To me mountable is mere validity/sanity of volume descriptor and to you is access to first recording. Let's call it muted instead, in which case answer is yes, 1st recording will become muted. Sanity is restored. First session effectively grows and it has nothing to do with drive recognizing multi-session. So you leave the track open ? No. But I leave session open in SRM+POW (as implied in the beginning). I assumed you fork a new track, write the session, use POW to patch LBA 0 to 31 and then close the track. Right. Except that considering rant in the beginning it might be more appropriate to refer to recording as increment, not session, in SRM+POW context. With overwriteables i write the first session to LBA 32 Cool. You can do this easily with mkisofs too: -C 0,32 (but no -M) Just start writing at LBA 32 and do the LBA 0 patching when the session is done. More is not needed. Cool. Well, maybe a dvd+rw-toc command. xorriso would do that for growisofs too. It has an alias name especially for that: export MKISOFS=xorrisofs growisofs -Z /dev/dvd /some/files growisofs -M /dev/dvd /more/files Emulation of -C goes up to the -C 16,x bug. :)) Even incremental backups are possible: growisofs -Z /dev/dvd -- outdev - -update_r /my/files /files growisofs -M /dev/dvd -- outdev - -update_r /my/files /files (Btw: would it be possible to lift the ban on options like -outdev, -overwrite, -options_from_file, ... ? They all are mistaken for -o.) Cool. I have to consider it... other sessions would have to be identified by looking at track start addresses instead of volume size round ups. I assume there is a regular pattern of gaps between two sessions. For reference, according to READ TRACK INFORMATION end of any given track coincides with start of next one. Though it (end of track) does not necessarily coincides with the end of recording. I don't seem to have data on sessions... I should have, I'll look... And even if not: one can scan for ISO 9660 heads quite effectively. Rounding up to BD cluster size would also be appropriate. A remark about http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/Blu-ray/ Your text can make the reader believe that POW consumes Spares. But it messes up the logical address space instead. (If you write to an orphan then you create a new orphan. Cough.) MMC-5 4.5.3.5.4.1: When a SRM disc has the POW capability, the Logical Overwrite of a Cluster is redirected to the NWA of some open Logical Track Only information about the redirections is stored in the Defect List. Busted on spot! To my defense I can only say that it does say in the beginning that it's somewhat less organized notes:-) But to be serious the page was never meant to be a 100% accurate technical description and I deliberately avoided going into very deep details. It admittedly can create such impression, but it does not actually say it, does it? It says that Spare Area is required for SRM+POW and is used to support POW. And it *is* used, because at least the defect list resides in the Spare Area, i.e. consumes it. But either way, yes, your remark is perfectly correct and I do appreciate it. I just hope more people do:-) Cheers. A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Hi, This is a bad advise as it will not work with UDF enabled. Good point. growisofs should watch out for that mkisofs option before deciding to do the 32 sector life saver offset. BTW: The reason why I call the multi-session method used by growisofs a dirty trick is because it destroys the first session in case you append another session. xorriso demonstrates that the 32 block offset of the first ISO-session is a fine remedy. It can show the ISO-sessions via option -toc on all media to which it can write multiple ISO-sessions. If you write a first DVD+RW ISO-session by xorriso then you can add further ISO-sessions by growisofs without spoiling that feature. BTW: what advantage do you expect from using your xorrisofs instead of mkisofs? From man xorriso, Overview of features: i deem the following not present in mkisofs but well usable under control of growisofs: Renames or deletes file objects in the ISO image. Changes file properties in the ISO image. Updates ISO subtrees incrementally to match given disk subtrees. Also i believe it has a more comprehensive default mapping of input paths to ISO image paths. It does a better job with copying directory attributes when creating the ISO directories of a given path. It can cut out pieces from oversized disk files and map them to ISO files without needing buffer space. It addresses Andy's concerns about files larger than 4 GB and the questionable quality of reader software when it comes to multi-extent files: xorriso option -split_size maps a regular file on disk to a directory in the ISO image and places the pieces with descriptive file names into that directory. Finally it offers an alternative to existing reader software by being able to restore to disk what it wrote to ISO image. If you hit a kernel bug with ISO level 3, then xorriso will retrieve your file anyway. If you got a directory full of split files, xorriso will re-unite them on disk. To avoid confusion: xorriso is mainly intended to integrate ISO 9660 Rock Ridge multi-session with CD/DVD/BD burning. There are good reasons for a closer coupling. But it is also ready to serve as ISO formatter for any other burn program. (And as burn program for any other formatter.) Have a nice day :) Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
SRM+POW recordings are *not*. SRM+POW recordings are multi-track, but not multi-session. Meaning that even multi-session aware OS will look for volume descriptor at LBA#16 for SRM+POW recording. [...] I leave session open in SRM+POW [...] appropriate to refer to recording as increment, not session, in SRM+POW So it is very similar to our layouts on overwriteable media. Except that the NWA is prescribed by the new track and not at the discretion of the burn program. (MMC advises to use the track provided NWA in 4.5.3.6.9 The Expanding Orphanage.) Yes. I have to split the meaning of Session for clarity. There are no MMC-sessions on overwriteables and on BD-R+POW (as written by growisofs). But there are ISO-sessions or Volumes which get generated as if they were to be appended to MMC-multi-session media. (This stems from ISO 9660 on CD-R, after all.) Right. I plead for keeping the ISO-sessions distinguishable in order to allow to mount the older states of the (pseudo-)multi-session media. ... I'll definitely consider all the suggestions. --- For reference, according to READ TRACK INFORMATION end of any given track coincides with start of next one. Now this is a riddle. From where did POW take the clusters which replaced the old LBA 0 clusters ? Presumably from past the end of user data. The specs say the Logical Overwrite of a Cluster is redirected to the NWA of some open Logical Track. A SRM disc with POW shall be initialized by the formatting process as a single session disc with a single Logical Track. The latter statement seems to forbid your track structure. Duh ? No. It only says how it should be *initially* formatted, but says nothing about that it shall stay that way for eternity. Anyway. If there is only one open track then the cluster had to be taken from its NWA. After transfer of iso-formatted volume NWA is at its end, right? When LBA 0 is overwritten, space is borrowed from NWA, which increments[!] NWA. *Then* current track is closed. So next track's NWA starts at cluster past borrowed space and no avalanche takes place. But [as mentioned earlier] end of track does not necessarily coincides with end of recording, iso-formatted volume in this case. If you start the next track and inquire its NWA then i'd expect it skips the orphaned cluster address. It does. If it would use the orphan LBA for the start of a sequential write, then an avalanche of orphans would hit the Defect List. POW-aware recording program is expected to check on NWA after every write and handle its changes accordingly. In growisofs case single check in the beginning of recording suffices. A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
Hi, me: A SRM disc with POW shall be initialized by the formatting process as a single session disc with a single Logical Track. Andy Polyakov: It only says how it should be *initially* formatted, but says nothing about that it shall stay that way for eternity. Ahum. Sounds reasonable. But [as mentioned earlier] end of track does not necessarily coincides with end of recording, iso-formatted volume in this case. So with a BD-R +POW with first ISO-session written with 32 sector offset and LBA-0-patching one would get a Table Of Content as follows: - First ISO-session begins at LBA 32. I.e. PVD at 48. It is valid if another PVD is found at LBA 16 which indicates at least the size of the PVD at LBA 48. - Further ISO-sessions begin at the start LBA of further tracks as reported by READ TRACK INFORMATION. So other than with overwriteable media, no chained hopping from ISO-session to ISO-session is needed. Nevertheless it could probably be implemented by skillfully guessing the start LBAs of the track from the size of the previous ISO-session. Just in case there are brain damaged drives. (Tricky is that orphan LBAs will exactly bear what i look for: System Area and Volume Descriptors. But of the previous ISO-session, not of the next one.) Have a nice day :) Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BD-R formatting help
I'm trying not to throw away *too* many of these darn expensive discs. Hey. Your boss could afford a BD burner two years ago ! It must have cost a little fortune. ;) That may be, but it is still painful to me to be tossing these babies in the rubbish bin! :'( Matt Schulte Commtech, Inc. Voice: 316-636-1131 Fax: 316-636-1163 http://www.commtech-fastcom.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
