Re: [CentOS] Not To James B. Byrne

2014-11-13 Thread Les Mikesell
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Miranda Hawarden-Ogata
 wrote:
>>
> 3) I do not have any mailing list messages deposited in my spam boxes and do
> not have any "/dev/null" redirects either in gmail or in TB (and never will.
> I'm a sysad, therefore the word paranoid cannot be applied >:D). I can say
> with certainty that none of my mailing list emails have wound up in any of
> the 3 spam boxes that they could land in. I have checked them all. As I was
> mentioning, I have filters set up on all the mailing lists that I care about
> to not spam/junk any messages on those lists. And those filters have been
> working reliably for some time now. Which is why I am curious to know what
> is different between your filtering and mine.
>

Just guessing, but it may be that you are using POP to retrieve the
mail and getting an "uncategorized" view of new messages in the inbox,
where if you use IMAP (with the possibility of syncing to multiple
systems), gmail's labels are mapped to imap folders before you get
them.

-- 
  Les Mikesell
 lesmikes...@gmail.com
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS list SPAM problems

2014-11-13 Thread Christopher Chan

On Friday, November 14, 2014 07:01 AM, Peter wrote:
So let's stop ragging on James, he's done what he should be doing and 
it's the CentOS server that has mucked things up here.

Peter


Yes, we don't need Spam-L or NANAE atmosphere here.
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Re: [CentOS] Not To James B. Byrne

2014-11-13 Thread Miranda Hawarden-Ogata

On 2014/11/13 12:43, Darr247 wrote:

On 13 November 2014 @21:51 zulu, Miranda Hawarden-Ogata wrote:
Have you tried setting up the TB filter to mark as not-junk when it 
runs? Mine are set to "apply before junk classification" matching on 
"to/from/cc/bcc contains centos@centos.org" and then the actions are 
"move to folder", "set junk to not-junk", "stop filter exec". It 
seems to work, I don't recall getting any false-junks in quite a 
while... I do also have a gmail filter that "never spam" filters all 
centos.org email.


Thanks!
Miranda


1) You sent that to my email, not the list.
2) I already have "Filter before Junk Classification" selected in that 
filter's Getting New Mail picklist.
3) You should look in your Spam folder and see if there aren't some 
emails with [CentOS] in their Subject lines. If it's completely empty, 
possibly you're having TB delete emails it thinks are junk.


1) I replied privately to reduce the list load since it was a TB config 
issue that I was addressing and not particularly the topic being 
discussed, where you and I are doing something similar and I was 
interested to know why my solution works and yours doesn't. But oh well :)


2) The pertinent part of the TB filter was the "set junk to not-junk", 
but that will only work if the filtering is applied before TB junking 
occurs, which is why I mentioned it to confirm your settings.


3) I do not have any mailing list messages deposited in my spam boxes 
and do not have any "/dev/null" redirects either in gmail or in TB (and 
never will. I'm a sysad, therefore the word paranoid cannot be applied 
>:D). I can say with certainty that none of my mailing list emails have 
wound up in any of the 3 spam boxes that they could land in. I have 
checked them all. As I was mentioning, I have filters set up on all the 
mailing lists that I care about to not spam/junk any messages on those 
lists. And those filters have been working reliably for some time now. 
Which is why I am curious to know what is different between your 
filtering and mine.


Thanks!
Miranda

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS list SPAM problems (was: Not To James B. Byrne)

2014-11-13 Thread Peter
On 11/13/2014 05:13 AM, Les Mikesell wrote:
> The p=quarantine setting from his server explicitly requests that the
> message be marked as spam if it s not sent from an authorized server,
> which don't include the centos list server. So it is accepted and
> dropped in the spam folder as requested.

This is actually a problem with the CentOS list server.  The CentOS list
properly changes the envelope sender but leaves in the DKIM signature.
Also the body of the email is changed thus invalidating the sig.  What
should be happening here is the CentOS server should be stripping the
DKIM headers and re-signing the message with it's own DKIM key in order
to be accepted more widely.

It also doesn't help that centos.org does *not* have an SPF record.

So let's stop ragging on James, he's done what he should be doing and
it's the CentOS server that has mucked things up here.


Peter
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Re: [CentOS] Not To James B. Byrne

2014-11-13 Thread Darr247

On 13 November 2014 @21:51 zulu, Miranda Hawarden-Ogata wrote:
Have you tried setting up the TB filter to mark as not-junk when it 
runs? Mine are set to "apply before junk classification" matching on 
"to/from/cc/bcc contains centos@centos.org" and then the actions are 
"move to folder", "set junk to not-junk", "stop filter exec". It seems 
to work, I don't recall getting any false-junks in quite a while... I 
do also have a gmail filter that "never spam" filters all centos.org 
email.


Thanks!
Miranda


1) You sent that to my email, not the list.
2) I already have "Filter before Junk Classification" selected in that 
filter's Getting New Mail picklist.
3) You should look in your Spam folder and see if there aren't some 
emails with [CentOS] in their Subject lines. If it's completely empty, 
possibly you're having TB delete emails it thinks are junk.



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Re: [CentOS] DMARC and Mailman (was: Not To James B. Byrne)

2014-11-13 Thread John R. Dennison
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 01:44:15PM -0500, Darr247 wrote:
> 
> Is the SELinux list run on a different mail server?
> 'cause I haven't seen any 'dmarc=fail' emails to *that* list end up
> in my Spam folder.

Take a look at the headers of a message from that list.  If it's RFC
compliant it will present you with various mailing-list specific
headers, one of which will quite likely identify the mailing list
software in use.






John
-- 
"Develop an attitude of gratitude, and give thanks for everything that
happens to you, knowing that every step forward is a step toward achieving
something bigger and better than your current situation."

~~ Brian Tracey


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Re: [CentOS] Not To James B. Byrne

2014-11-13 Thread Les Mikesell
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 12:44 PM, Darr247  wrote:
> On 13 November 2014 @14:53 zulu, Elias Persson wrote:
>>
>> Presumably you've already got a filter set up for applying a label to list
>> mails.
>
>
> Actually, on those 'dmarc=fail (p=REJECT/p=QUARANTINE' emails, Thunderbird
> ignores the filter that moves this list's emails into the local folder I
> have setup for it and instead puts them into the Spam folder... I have to
> manually go into the Spam folder in T-Bird and Mark them as Not Spam, then
> they're automatically moved back to the Inbox and my filter moves them to
> this list's folder.
>
> Is the SELinux list run on a different mail server?
> 'cause I haven't seen any 'dmarc=fail' emails to *that* list end up in my
> Spam folder.

That probably just means that no aol or yahoo users are SELinux experts

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 lesmikes...@gmail.com
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Re: [CentOS] Not To James B. Byrne

2014-11-13 Thread Darr247

On 13 November 2014 @14:53 zulu, Elias Persson wrote:
Presumably you've already got a filter set up for applying a label to 
list mails.


Actually, on those 'dmarc=fail (p=REJECT/p=QUARANTINE' emails, 
Thunderbird ignores the filter that moves this list's emails into the 
local folder I have setup for it and instead puts them into the Spam 
folder... I have to manually go into the Spam folder in T-Bird and Mark 
them as Not Spam, then they're automatically moved back to the Inbox and 
my filter moves them to this list's folder.


Is the SELinux list run on a different mail server?
'cause I haven't seen any 'dmarc=fail' emails to *that* list end up in 
my Spam folder.

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Re: [CentOS] Not To James B. Byrne

2014-11-13 Thread Chris Adams
Once upon a time, Valeri Galtsev  said:
> I would second that. In general, it is rather discouraging to hear: "hey,
> fix that thing on your side. Of course, I can make your mail not go into
> my spambox on my side, but I don't care to change anything on my side".

The problem with that is, in some cases (depending on the provider's
spam filtering), messages may be outright rejected (because that's what
the configuration says to do).  The _only_ place that can be fixed
correctly is at the mailing list server (and that also requires a change
in one place, rather than every list subscriber adding local filters).
Telling everyone to add filters IMHO is really the same as the old spam
argument of "you can just hit delete".

If RHEL isn't going to get an updated mailman that conforms to current
(whether good or bad) "best practices", I'd be interested in seeing a
newer mailman packaged elsewhere (maybe EPEL?).

-- 
Chris Adams 
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Re: [CentOS] Not To James B. Byrne

2014-11-13 Thread James B. Byrne

On Wed, November 12, 2014 15:50, g wrote:
>
>
> On 11/12/2014 10:13 AM, Les Mikesell wrote:

>
>>
>> Well, no.  Per the headers:
>>
>> Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com:
>> centos-boun...@centos.org does not designate permitted sender hosts)
>> smtp.mail=centos-boun...@centos.org; dkim=neutral (body hash did not
>> verify) header.i=@; dmarc=fail (p=QUARANTINE dis=NONE)
>> header.from=harte-lyne.ca
>>
>> The p=quarantine setting from his server explicitly requests that
>> the message be marked as spam if it s not sent from an authorized
>> server, which don't include the centos list server. So it is accepted
>> and dropped in the spam folder as requested.
>>
>> And at the moment, he is the only list member that posts regularly
>> from a server with this setting.  (We don't even see ones with
>> p=reject, they'll bounce and get kicked off the list).
>
> Les,
>
> i believe problems are on your end, and not with server for James.
>
> i do not see "dmarc=fail" or "p=QUARANTINE" in *any* of his email
> headers.
>
> therefore, i suggest that it is problem that _you_need_to_correct_.
>

The problem is not within the span of control of anyone receiving this message
from the CentOS mailing list.  Les is not in a position to deal with this
issue any better than he already has.

The people that are receiving my messages marked as spam are seeing the result
of our DMARC disposition setting of quarantine.  That simply tells conforming
MX servers to mark the message as suspect and so allow the recipient to deal
with it.  And that is the proper thing for Google to do in our case.  Messages
coming from harte-lyne.ca certainly did not originate from centos.org
notwithstanding that is who is transmitting them.  And we are telling Google
that messages from harte-lyne.ca should only be received from our authorized
mails servers, which is perfectly correct.

Google's course of action thereby leaves it in the hands of the recipient to
manage what that fact means to them.  It tells them that this message is
routed in some unusual way and that it may be forged. That is important to
know before one opens a message purporting to originate from a trusted source.

As someone else pointed out, there is a philosophical question respecting who
is the originator of any message that travels through a distribution list. 
And it remains unresolved.  If the CentOS mailing list set the sender and from
headers of all traffic routed through it to itself then the problems you are
seeing with my messages would simply disappear.  Because I would no longer be
considered the originator. Something to that effect is what the changes to
Mailman-2.1.18 enable while retaining or setting the Reply-To header to the
original author's email address.  I am not sure of the details.

The retention of the originator's identity on mailing list mail is somewhat
inconsistent with the premise that whoever transmits a message is the
originator regardless of whoever wrote it.  One can see premise that in the
typical action of forwarding email from inside your MUA.  The sender becomes
the person forwarding the message, not the original author.

One also must consider that when one subscribes to a digest of mailing list
traffic, as I do to avoid the problems of identity that others experience,
then the sender and the from are always the list itself as it technically
impossible to have all of the the contributors designated as the Sender.  It
is therefore a valid question to ask how it comes to be that a collection of
messages sent one at a time for a given source differs in origin than one sent
as a single message from the same source?

DMARC is all about forgery and is a response, albeit in my opinion a poor one,
to the limitation found in most MUAs that only display the FROM header
regardless of the Sender.  Yahoo is draconian about this because, having had
their client's email accounts compromised through a security lapse on their
part, vast numbers of forged messages were sent to people with yahoo.com
accounts who lacked the technical sophistication to detect the fraud.

I apologise for the length of this reply.  DMARC is not a simple subject to
discuss.  The topic of email identity is highly politicized and technical
approaches to the question have already baffled some of the finest minds on
the IETF.  I doubt greatly that anyone here can propose any solution that has
not already been considered and rejected for either political or technical
reasons.

-- 
***  E-Mail is NOT a SECURE channel  ***
James B. Byrnemailto:byrn...@harte-lyne.ca
Harte & Lyne Limited  http://www.harte-lyne.ca
9 Brockley Drive  vox: +1 905 561 1241
Hamilton, Ontario fax: +1 905 561 0757
Canada  L8E 3C3

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Re: [CentOS] Not To James B. Byrne

2014-11-13 Thread Les Mikesell
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 10:25 AM, Valeri Galtsev
 wrote:
>
>
> I would second that. In general, it is rather discouraging to hear: "hey,
> fix that thing on your side. Of course, I can make your mail not go into
> my spambox on my side, but I don't care to change anything on my side".
> Well if you do care to have someone's e-mail, put some effort in it.
> Otherwise, if you don't care that much about that person's e-mail, why
> making all that buzz? It's pretty much the same as: if I do care someone
> hears understands what I say I do put effort into speaking loud enough and
> intelligible enough.

So you'd make some imaginary value judgement about the content of an
email before seeing it?  The concept doesn't make much sense in the
context of a technical list.  How would you know whether it is a
question you couldn't answer anyway  or the answer you were waiting
for that might have gone unseen?

> Consider it a point of view of external observer.

I look at my spam folder regularly, because I know that automations
generally make mistakes and what I find confirms that.  But that lets
one person see it - if he knows he was missing it in the first place.
If you are the one posting a message to a list and you'd like people
to see it, it would currently be wise to not send from an address
where the domain requests that messages forwarded by other systems be
quarantined or rejected.   And if you are running a list and would
like the members to see the messages you forward, it would be nice to
use current software so that actually will happen instead of just
hoping that all of the members know how to work around the problems
old software causes.

-- 
   Les Mikesell
 lesmikes...@gmail.com
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Re: [CentOS] Not To James B. Byrne

2014-11-13 Thread Valeri Galtsev

On Thu, November 13, 2014 8:53 am, Elias Persson wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 2014-11-12 22:11, Les Mikesell wrote:
>
>> It's not my problem, it is what his domain says should be done
>> with mail claiming to be from there but isn't..  Your mail system
>> may simply ignore the request, but that doesn't mean it always will
>> or that it is the right thing to do.   And on a more practical
>> note, shouldn't be left as each recipient's problem.   And
>> particularly since it affects mail from yahoo.com and aol.com
>> senders, the long term fix will have to be in the list software
>> (and already is, in the current version).   Meanwhile, the
>> workaround is to not send with a From: address where the domain
>> requests that it not be forwarded.
>>
>
> It might not be your problem, but a perfectly workable solution is in
> your hands.
>
> Presumably you've already got a filter set up for applying a label to
> list mails. Simply check the "Never mark as spam" box and those mails
> will no longer be misplaced.
>

I would second that. In general, it is rather discouraging to hear: "hey,
fix that thing on your side. Of course, I can make your mail not go into
my spambox on my side, but I don't care to change anything on my side".
Well if you do care to have someone's e-mail, put some effort in it.
Otherwise, if you don't care that much about that person's e-mail, why
making all that buzz? It's pretty much the same as: if I do care someone
hears understands what I say I do put effort into speaking loud enough and
intelligible enough.

Consider it a point of view of external observer.

Valeri


Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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Re: [CentOS] Not To James B. Byrne

2014-11-13 Thread Les Mikesell
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Elias Persson  wrote:
>>
> Presumably you've already got a filter set up for applying a label to
> list mails. Simply check the "Never mark as spam" box and those mails
> will no longer be misplaced.
>

I don't bother defining filters for gmail.  It is capable of searching
for anything I might want to isolate on demand.

-- 
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Re: [CentOS] Not To James B. Byrne

2014-11-13 Thread Elias Persson
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 2014-11-12 22:11, Les Mikesell wrote:

> It's not my problem, it is what his domain says should be done
> with mail claiming to be from there but isn't..  Your mail system
> may simply ignore the request, but that doesn't mean it always will
> or that it is the right thing to do.   And on a more practical
> note, shouldn't be left as each recipient's problem.   And
> particularly since it affects mail from yahoo.com and aol.com
> senders, the long term fix will have to be in the list software
> (and already is, in the current version).   Meanwhile, the
> workaround is to not send with a From: address where the domain
> requests that it not be forwarded.
> 

It might not be your problem, but a perfectly workable solution is in
your hands.

Presumably you've already got a filter set up for applying a label to
list mails. Simply check the "Never mark as spam" box and those mails
will no longer be misplaced.


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[CentOS] CentOS-announce Digest, Vol 117, Issue 7

2014-11-13 Thread centos-announce-request
Send CentOS-announce mailing list submissions to
centos-annou...@centos.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-announce
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
centos-announce-requ...@centos.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of CentOS-announce digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. CEBA-2014:1849  CentOS 6 perl BugFix Update (Johnny Hughes)
   2. CESA-2014:1846 Moderate CentOS 7 gnutls Security  Update
  (Johnny Hughes)
   3. CEBA-2014:1850  CentOS 7 virt-who BugFix Update (Johnny Hughes)
   4. CESA-2014:1826 Moderate CentOS 7 libvncserver Security Update
  (Johnny Hughes)


--

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 10:38:47 +
From: Johnny Hughes 
To: centos-annou...@centos.org
Subject: [CentOS-announce] CEBA-2014:1849  CentOS 6 perl BugFix Update
Message-ID: <20141112103847.ga45...@n04.lon1.karan.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


CentOS Errata and Bugfix Advisory 2014:1849 

Upstream details at : https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/RHBA-2014-1849.html

The following updated files have been uploaded and are currently 
syncing to the mirrors: ( sha256sum Filename ) 

i386:
27aa56cf4d02f89172372b080b41950929dfd4122cae2ab38b5fe2572ddae5f7  
perl-5.10.1-136.el6_6.1.i686.rpm
83777a0a728bc040f051817c61b4d62bdf181f1714c538e067af9b393495af6d  
perl-Archive-Extract-0.38-136.el6_6.1.i686.rpm
05accee109d027a5f496e85ea9bef509152998056ba65d345329d5606c2914aa  
perl-Archive-Tar-1.58-136.el6_6.1.i686.rpm
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perl-CGI-3.51-136.el6_6.1.i686.rpm
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