subject:"\[CentOS\] CentOS for non\-tech user"

-Original Message-
From: centos-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-boun...@centos.org] On
Behalf
Of Marcelo M. Garcia
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 11:08 PM
To: CentOS mailing list
Subject: Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

 Sorry, but Fedora is no longer a good desktop choice. I was a Fedora
 user, but the distribution is pushing to far the idea of cutting edge
 features.

 Would you mind elaborating your view here?

To be honest there isn't much to elaborate. I understand the goal Fedora
project to test the latest software available. In this way, Fedora isn't
for everyone. At least is not for your main system, but if you have a
spare machine to install and play with it, it's probably a good idea. In
my case, the rpmfusion NVIDIA driver didn't like my card, a Quadro NVS280.

I there are too many updates, and sometimes they crash something. I
remember while using Fedora 10, after disappointment with F9, after an
update, the sound stopped to work. I didn't like the idea of Thunderbird
beta in F 12. Also, the external drives are mounted using the uuid(?)
name, so instead of /media/disk, appears something like
/media/88299233ddd22, which breaks my backup/recover script. And a few
other thinks. My general option was that the experience wasn't good, or
put in another way, Ubuntu works better.

Uuid doesn't look like something I'd like to see anywhere soon on my
systems... I'll look into that though. I'd like to know the point with it.

None of this is critical, but it is annoying. For me, a good
distribuition would be something seating between Fedora and CentOS. In
the last months I started thinking that Ubuntu feel this gap. I still
believe that CentOS is best option for servers and technical
workstations, but not for my laptop, a Dell XPS M1530.

Thanks for the reply. As I can see from above, your opinions basically
mirror my own with respect to Fedora. 

However, my opinion is that CentOS fits almost everywhere. In fact, I'm just
finishing up a CentOS install on a Compaq Evo N610c - a portable. I've done
this before and it has worked fine with the exception where a wifi-card in
involved. This most often gives me grief.
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

-Original Message-
From: centos-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-boun...@centos.org] On
Behalf
Of Matt
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 11:29 PM
To: CentOS mailing list
Subject: Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Thats my thought as well.  Ubuntu desktop and CentOS for servers.
Just wandering if anyone is using the 'Ubuntu Server Edition's'?  They
seem appealing but CentOS is what I am used too on servers now.
Thought about loading it up on a box to just try though.

Not using, but I've tried it in a LAMP-configuration couple of years ago.
Stability seems ok, but personally I don't like the sudo this and sudo that
and sudo everywhere. Besides, it felt somehow clunky. CentOS seemed slim,
slick and fast compared at the time, so CentOS is what I got stuck with (in
an endearing sense of course).

HTH.
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

-Original Message-
From: centos-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-boun...@centos.org] On
Behalf
Of Christopher Chan
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 2:35 AM
To: CentOS mailing list
Subject: Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Ubuntu for desktop is really a give and take. You get some stuff
conveniently done for you like Nvidia drivers (which, I believe is also
doable on Centos with a certain repo...cannot remember which) but you
may also have to handle random crap like Network Manager not setting
things up properly.

Rpmforge, dkms and the nvidia-dkms-package. Works like a charm. You can't
but love it. 8-)
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Christopher Chan

Sorin Srbu wrote:
 -Original Message-
 From: centos-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-boun...@centos.org] On

 Behalf

 Of Matt
 Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 11:29 PM
 To: CentOS mailing list
 Subject: Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

 Thats my thought as well.  Ubuntu desktop and CentOS for servers.
 Just wandering if anyone is using the 'Ubuntu Server Edition's'?  They
 seem appealing but CentOS is what I am used too on servers now.
 Thought about loading it up on a box to just try though.

 Not using, but I've tried it in a LAMP-configuration couple of years ago.
 Stability seems ok, but personally I don't like the sudo this and sudo that
 and sudo everywhere. Besides, it felt somehow clunky. CentOS seemed slim,
 slick and fast compared at the time, so CentOS is what I got stuck with (in
 an endearing sense of course).

Bah, sudo -i for the equivalent of su -.
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Geoff Galitz


 
 1) Ubuntu really needs more frequent total updates (it is not a
 long-term stable release).  The Ubuntu system that was on the local
 library's server was unable to get updates (apt-get would fail -- I
 ended up manually downloading packages and installing by hand (using raw
 dpkg commands -- ala using raw rpm instead of yum).

Ubuntu has the LTS releases, which are long term stable releases. They are
supported for five years after release.

I run Ubuntu along with other Linux distros for various purposes and I've
never had an update problem with it.  Perhaps that system was pointing to a
flaky mirror?

Perhaps it is getting trendy to beat up on non-Centos distros here on the
Centos list?
 


-
Geoff Galitz
Blankenheim NRW, Germany
http://www.galitz.org/
http://german-way.com/blog/

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

-Original Message-
From: centos-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-boun...@centos.org] On
Behalf
Of Christopher Chan
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 9:40 AM
To: CentOS mailing list
Subject: Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

 Not using, but I've tried it in a LAMP-configuration couple of years ago.
 Stability seems ok, but personally I don't like the sudo this and sudo
that
 and sudo everywhere. Besides, it felt somehow clunky. CentOS seemed slim,
 slick and fast compared at the time, so CentOS is what I got stuck with
(in
 an endearing sense of course).

Bah, sudo -i for the equivalent of su -.

Well, to my defense, I was rather green with linux at the time... 8-}
-- 
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Niki Kovacs

Geoff Galitz a écrit :

 
 Ubuntu has the LTS releases, which are long term stable releases. They are
 supported for five years after release.
 
Ubuntu Long Term Support is three years for desktops and five for servers.

In the last LTS version (8.04), half of the audio apps had no sound for 
a month or so, until Ubuntu fixed the problems with Pulseaudio. At the 
time, I had given Ubuntu 8.04 a shot in our public libraries and had 
some very embarrassing moments.

Solution: stick with CentOS, rock-solid and *real* LTS.

Niki
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Niki Kovacs

Christopher Chan a écrit :

   
 Bah, sudo -i for the equivalent of su -.

Or try this:

$ sudo -s

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Robert Heller

At Tue, 29 Sep 2009 10:21:08 +0200 CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org 
wrote:

 
 
  
  1) Ubuntu really needs more frequent total updates (it is not a
  long-term stable release).  The Ubuntu system that was on the local
  library's server was unable to get updates (apt-get would fail -- I
  ended up manually downloading packages and installing by hand (using raw
  dpkg commands -- ala using raw rpm instead of yum).
 
 Ubuntu has the LTS releases, which are long term stable releases. They are
 supported for five years after release.
 
 I run Ubuntu along with other Linux distros for various purposes and I've
 never had an update problem with it.  Perhaps that system was pointing to a
 flaky mirror?

I don't really know. The guy who set it up originally was somewhat
unhelpfull.  I'm guessing he didn't use a LTS release and did not really
set things up well.  I took over management of the system without really
any experience with Ubuntu (or Debian).

 
 Perhaps it is getting trendy to beat up on non-Centos distros here on the
 Centos list?


No, I don't think so,  *I* just had a bad experience dealing with a
Ubuntu setup and had problems dealing with it.  And generally found a
marked *lack* of support from the Ubuntu forums or from the guy who
originally set the system up.  For *me* it was just easier to install
CentOS, and having done so, things just worked better.  I have set up
CentOS for other 'non techies' and things have worked well.

  
 
 
 -
 Geoff Galitz
 Blankenheim NRW, Germany
 http://www.galitz.org/
 http://german-way.com/blog/
 
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Deepwoods Software-- Download the Model Railroad System
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Binaries for Linux and MS-Windows
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Christopher Chan wrote:
 

 Thats my thought as well.  Ubuntu desktop and CentOS for servers.
 Just wandering if anyone is using the 'Ubuntu Server Edition's'?  They
 seem appealing but CentOS is what I am used too on servers now.
 Thought about loading it up on a box to just try though.
 
 Not using, but I've tried it in a LAMP-configuration couple of years ago.
 Stability seems ok, but personally I don't like the sudo this and sudo that
 and sudo everywhere. Besides, it felt somehow clunky. CentOS seemed slim,
 slick and fast compared at the time, so CentOS is what I got stuck with (in
 an endearing sense of course).
   
 Bah, sudo -i for the equivalent of su -.

Or more straightforwardly, sudo su -.  Works on Macs too.

-- 
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lesmikes...@gmail.com

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Sorin Srbu wrote:

 Thats my thought as well.  Ubuntu desktop and CentOS for servers.
 Just wandering if anyone is using the 'Ubuntu Server Edition's'?  They
 seem appealing but CentOS is what I am used too on servers now.
 Thought about loading it up on a box to just try though.
 
 Not using, but I've tried it in a LAMP-configuration couple of years ago.
 Stability seems ok, but personally I don't like the sudo this and sudo that
 and sudo everywhere. Besides, it felt somehow clunky. CentOS seemed slim,
 slick and fast compared at the time, so CentOS is what I got stuck with (in
 an endearing sense of course).

Server software has been fairly 'feature-complete' for a decade or so and 
there's not a lot of point in using a rapidly changing distribution to run it. 
If you did use Ubuntu, you'd want the LTS (long term support) version.  On the 
other hand, Linux desktop software still has a ways to go and there are more 
reasons to accept the new bugs that come along with new features and the need 
to 
upgrade more often.  RHEL's decision to update the versions of Firefox and 
OpenOffice in a minor release helped, but it still feels very old as a desktop.

-- 
   Les Mikesell
lesmikes...@gmail.com
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Sorin Srbu wrote:

 I there are too many updates, and sometimes they crash something. I
 remember while using Fedora 10, after disappointment with F9, after an
 update, the sound stopped to work. I didn't like the idea of Thunderbird
 beta in F 12. Also, the external drives are mounted using the uuid(?)
 name, so instead of /media/disk, appears something like
 /media/88299233ddd22, which breaks my backup/recover script. And a few
 other thinks. My general option was that the experience wasn't good, or
 put in another way, Ubuntu works better.
 
 Uuid doesn't look like something I'd like to see anywhere soon on my
 systems... I'll look into that though. I'd like to know the point with it.

What happens when you mount 2 otherwise identical disks/filesystems?  As might 
happen if you take a disk from a default install and mount it into another 
similar system?  I haven't tried with a recent fedora version, but I'd guess it 
still won't work if you have the default LVM volume id from an install - 
they've 
gotten this wrong with every label/id approach so far.

Even people who are 'no-tech' types as far as Linux goes may want to swap 
drives 
around and copy some old data or at least look at the contents before reusing a 
drive.

-- 
   Les Mikesell
lesmikes...@gmail.com

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Karanbir Singh

On 09/27/2009 02:57 PM, Drew wrote:
 That's the rule of thumb I see applied to what goes in /srv. In a LAMP
 box for example I'd expect to see the website(and site logs), database
 files, and POP3/IMAP spools stored in srv directories. Machine
 specific data like system logs and email processing spools get stored
 in /var.


well, /srv to me is served and shared storage. So anything on the 
network that isnt consumed directly by off-immediate-network clients 
using any service would end up there.

To me, thats the best match for usage - most other things, maybe 
everything else, has a fairly clear guideline from the LSB. although the 
lsb specs are themselves a bit in the air. Lets see if the 3rd or 4th 
time they get something done a bit more formally.

- KB
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Karanbir Singh

On 09/29/2009 09:21 AM, Geoff Galitz wrote:
 Ubuntu has the LTS releases, which are long term stable releases. They are
 supported for five years after release.

you might want to look into exactly what is ubuntu-support and how that 
compares with what you get with CentOS. Its not nearly the same thing. 
To an extent that LTS is mostly considered a nonstarter in most  very 
small business. Specially where the client is in a position to evaluate 
their options and work out the implications of what they are getting. It 
always surprises me how many are not.

- KB
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Niki Kovacs

m.r...@5-cent.us a écrit :

 I also have CentOS at home. There are quirks, though: for example, I tried
 to run kaffeine last night, and it couldn't find libkaffeinepart.so. I
 tried adding /opt/kde3/lib to LD_LIBRARY_PATH, to LOAD_LIBwhatever, and
 even did an ldconfig, and it *still* can't find it (I run icewm, btw, not
 KDE).

Kaffeine is basically Xine for KDE. Since you're running IceWM, you 
might as well give Xine or Gxine (no Gnome deps) a spin.

Cheers,

Niki
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Karanbir Singh wrote:
 On 09/27/2009 02:57 PM, Drew wrote:
 That's the rule of thumb I see applied to what goes in /srv. In a LAMP
 box for example I'd expect to see the website(and site logs), database
 files, and POP3/IMAP spools stored in srv directories. Machine
 specific data like system logs and email processing spools get stored
 in /var.
 
 
 well, /srv to me is served and shared storage. So anything on the 
 network that isnt consumed directly by off-immediate-network clients 
 using any service would end up there.
 
 To me, thats the best match for usage - most other things, maybe 
 everything else, has a fairly clear guideline from the LSB. although the 
 lsb specs are themselves a bit in the air. Lets see if the 3rd or 4th 
 time they get something done a bit more formally.

Not likely...  Storage paths are all arbitrary and if a standard has to 
make up a new location that breaks existing concepts they've already 
done something wrong.  So far the LSB has been good at making up things 
that nobody used before - not so good at getting everyone to agree to 
change (and change again every time they change their minds).

-- 
   Les Mikesell
 lesmikes...@gmail.com
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread m . roth

 m.r...@5-cent.us a écrit :

 I also have CentOS at home. There are quirks, though: for example, I
 tried to run kaffeine last night, and it couldn't find libkaffeinepart.so.
 I tried adding /opt/kde3/lib to LD_LIBRARY_PATH, to LOAD_LIBwhatever,
 and even did an ldconfig, and it *still* can't find it (I run icewm, btw,
 not KDE).

 Kaffeine is basically Xine for KDE. Since you're running IceWM, you
 might as well give Xine or Gxine (no Gnome deps) a spin.

I might... but I *really* want to know *why* it can't find the library,
that's right there. That's problems waiting to happen.

   mark

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Chan Chung Hang Christopher

Niki Kovacs wrote:
 Geoff Galitz a écrit :

   
 Ubuntu has the LTS releases, which are long term stable releases. They are
 supported for five years after release.

 
 Ubuntu Long Term Support is three years for desktops and five for servers.

 In the last LTS version (8.04), half of the audio apps had no sound for 
 a month or so, until Ubuntu fixed the problems with Pulseaudio. At the 
 time, I had given Ubuntu 8.04 a shot in our public libraries and had 
 some very embarrassing moments.
   
+1. All my Ubuntu 8.04 trial boxes are now XP due to that.

 Solution: stick with CentOS, rock-solid and *real* LTS.

   
Yeah, if only I did not have to put Windows in a vm...
Centos would have done the trick if it was just pure Linux.
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Drew

 Not likely...  Storage paths are all arbitrary and if a standard has to
 make up a new location that breaks existing concepts they've already
 done something wrong.

Times change. What worked well on Unix 20-30 years ago isn't
necessarily the best way of doing things today. Websites for example
have moved from static html on the arpanet  university sites to the
rich multimedia content we see today. Back then the idea of a website
infecting a computer was unheard of. Now an entire industry has
cropped up around protecting systems from malicious content.

 So far the LSB has been good at making up things
 that nobody used before - not so good at getting everyone to agree to
 change (and change again every time they change their minds).

I've never seen an entire industry move rapidly to adopt change unless
there are significant incentives to do so. And as the incentives for
Linux to do so are primarily best practices I don't expect to see a
wholesale move anytime soon.


-- 
Drew

Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood.
--Marie Curie
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Matt wrote:
 
 Just wandering if anyone is using the 'Ubuntu Server Edition's'?

On a whim, I installed it on my home mail/web/* server. It was due for 
an upgrade anyway.

So far, so good. Running a boatload of services (low load though), no 
crashes, solid.

The Ubuntu experience is the same. When I had to install stuff like 
the MythTV backend, or the MediaTomb UPnP server (*) or things like that 
(including multimedia things like libavcodec or libdvdread), there was 
no need to add all sorts of repos to the system, which may or may not 
conflict each other or replace the base packages. I just did sudo 
apt-get install somepackage and, voila!, I was done.

So I think I prefer it even on the server, if it's a small home server 
like this. At work though, what with Oracle RAC, high-end storage and 
things like that, Red Hat and its derivatives are still the choice.


(*) - It's great to have a system up-n-running 24/7 anyway (for email, 
web, DHCP, printing and whatnot). In that case, you can put a UPnP 
server on it, and dump all your multimedia files (MP3, JPEG, movies) on 
the hard-drive, then comfortably browse them on your TV with some sort 
of UPnP client (a game console like the PS3, or one of those tiny UPnP 
boxes they sell on the Internet).
Then put a MythTV backend on the server, and install the frontend on the 
gaming PC connected to your TV - you do have one, right? :-) The gaming 
PC can dual-boot, Mythbuntu for MythTV, Windows for games.
It's a great setup, and yes, it can be done on CentOS or just about any 
Linux distro. But with Ubuntu everything is just there, so the 
install/admin effort is greatly reduced.

-- 
Florin Andrei

http://florin.myip.org/

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Geoff Galitz wrote:
 
 Perhaps it is getting trendy to beat up on non-Centos distros here on the
 Centos list?

Well, it's the group bias.

I keep an eye on a Kawasaki forum, and they have a knack for doing a lot 
of Suzuki bashing. I'm, like, WTF, they're all awesome sportbikes! :-)

Same here. In the end, Linux is the same, just different flavors for 
different tastes.

-- 
Florin Andrei

http://florin.myip.org/

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Karanbir Singh wrote:
 
 you might want to look into exactly what is ubuntu-support and how that 
 compares with what you get with CentOS. Its not nearly the same thing. 
 To an extent that LTS is mostly considered a nonstarter in most  very 
 small business. Specially where the client is in a position to evaluate 
 their options and work out the implications of what they are getting. It 
 always surprises me how many are not.

I agree with your assessment that Red Hat  Co are still The 
Distribution for enterprise stuff.

They should keep an eye on Ubuntu though, it's gaining ground real fast 
and it's using the best strategy (that worked before for the likes of 
Intel, Microsoft and, yes, Linux in general): they're co-opting the 
low-end first. Things are going to get pretty interesting a few years 
down the road.

-- 
Florin Andrei

http://florin.myip.org/

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Drew wrote:
 Not likely...  Storage paths are all arbitrary and if a standard has to
 make up a new location that breaks existing concepts they've already
 done something wrong.
 
 Times change. What worked well on Unix 20-30 years ago isn't
 necessarily the best way of doing things today. 

Storage paths are arbitrary.  There's nothing more functional about one 
path than any other.  This isn't about 'working well'.  It's about 
forcing everyone to change for no reason.  It's about making Linux 
different from other unix flavors for no reason.  All while avoiding the 
thing that Linux actually needs which is to define a standard set of 
libraries and their locations that must be present so people can deliver 
programs that run across distributions.

 Websites for example
 have moved from static html on the arpanet  university sites to the
 rich multimedia content we see today. Back then the idea of a website
 infecting a computer was unheard of. Now an entire industry has
 cropped up around protecting systems from malicious content.

Those are functional issues, not arbitrary choices.

 So far the LSB has been good at making up things
 that nobody used before - not so good at getting everyone to agree to
 change (and change again every time they change their minds).
 
 I've never seen an entire industry move rapidly to adopt change unless
 there are significant incentives to do so. And as the incentives for
 Linux to do so are primarily best practices I don't expect to see a
 wholesale move anytime soon.

Exactly.  There is no reason to change from one arbitrary location to 
another, and without standardizing library functionality and locations 
the LSB provides no functional benefit.

-- 
   Les Mikesell
 lesmikes...@gmail.com

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Max Hetrick

Florin Andrei wrote:

 Well, it's the group bias.
 
 I keep an eye on a Kawasaki forum, and they have a knack for doing a lot 
 of Suzuki bashing. I'm, like, WTF, they're all awesome sportbikes! :-)
 
 Same here. In the end, Linux is the same, just different flavors for 
 different tastes.
 

Agreed. Unfortunately, open source communities never seem to think that 
way. The point being, open source/Linux serves to all get to the same 
goal, but unfortunately, projects get a bad name for bashing other 
projects. The vi vs. emacs, Gnome vs. KDE, etc. rants.

I was at Ohio Linux Fest this past weekend where Shawn Powers, a Linux 
Journal editor, opened with a keynote speech. Basically, his speech hit 
on that topic somewhat.

I understand and appreciate passion, but I think it gets in the way 
sometimes when you start bashing other open source projects that are 
trying to reach the same goal. The point of Linux and open source is 
choice, and I truly don't respect the zealots that do a lot of bashing. 
I think it's counter-productive and exactly why Linux communities get a 
bad name sometimes.

I understand lists are specific, but questions like this should be about 
what people have had good and bad experiences with things. CentOS works 
good here for one persons needs, but may not fit another.

Regards,
Max
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Florin Andrei wrote:
 Karanbir Singh wrote:
 you might want to look into exactly what is ubuntu-support and how that 
 compares with what you get with CentOS. Its not nearly the same thing. 
 To an extent that LTS is mostly considered a nonstarter in most  very 
 small business. Specially where the client is in a position to evaluate 
 their options and work out the implications of what they are getting. It 
 always surprises me how many are not.
 
 I agree with your assessment that Red Hat  Co are still The 
 Distribution for enterprise stuff.
 
 They should keep an eye on Ubuntu though, it's gaining ground real fast 
 and it's using the best strategy (that worked before for the likes of 
 Intel, Microsoft and, yes, Linux in general): they're co-opting the 
 low-end first. Things are going to get pretty interesting a few years 
 down the road.

Yes, keep in mind that it took many years for Red Hat to get it right 
(or what they think is right) and when they did, they stopped 
distributing the binaries for free.  Ubuntu should be getting pretty 
close to having the support experience they need to be a match - and so 
far they have promised that their version will continue to be available 
for free.

-- 
   Les Mikesell
lesmikes...@gmail.com

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Max Hetrick wrote:
 
 the zealots

Nah, it's just the way the human mind works, according to its current 
blueprint. It can be pretty awesome in what it can do sometimes, but it 
does have obvious fundamental flaws too.

You and I have biases too, but nobody is aware of their own. :)

-- 
Florin Andrei

http://florin.myip.org/

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Drew

The argument you're expressing, as I see it, is that there is really
no difference whether or not the files are stored in /var or /srv
because in the end they're bits on a disk so where in the file system
they end up doesn't matter. /var was chosen years ago by Unix admins
so why change it to /srv?

My argument is that those same Unix admins no doubt placed it there
because it made functional sense at the time. Over the years that
location became a convention and therefore became an arbitrary
location. The LSB is reviewing that same functional choice in light of
what changes have occurred in how we use servers and they feel that it
makes more functional sense to break those files out into their own
tree.

As far as breaking tradition from Unix, last time I checked porting an
app of reasonable size over from Linux to Unix is not a simple
process. The choice to put client facing files in one directory or
another is a minor part, at best, of that process.

I agree with you on standardizing libraries but I fail to see how that
has any relevance to where an admin should place their client facing
files.



-- 
Drew

Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood.
--Marie Curie
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:49 PM, Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yes, keep in mind that it took many years for Red Hat to get it right
 (or what they think is right) and when they did, they stopped
 distributing the binaries for free.  Ubuntu should be getting pretty
 close to having the support experience they need to be a match - and so
 far they have promised that their version will continue to be available
 for free.

I don't know what Ubuntu wants eventually, but for now they seem to
have a totally different mindset than Red Hat. They've positioned
themselves to be the move from Windows Linux and, in doing that,
they're basically pushing cutting edge. Red Hat, on the other hand,
made the decision to go for the corporate server (and Desktop) market.
Everything they do is geared for that purpose. Their only real
competition here is SuSE.

My experience with Ubuntu is mixed. It's easy to install but there
always seems to be something that doesn't quite work right -- usually
issues with my Intel graphics chip. I've also had problems with
updates breaking what already worked. I'm using trailing edge
hardware, so that could be the problem. If I used a Debian-based
distribution it would probably just be Debian.

-- 
RonB -- Using CentOS 5.3
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Drew wrote:
 The argument you're expressing, as I see it, is that there is really
 no difference whether or not the files are stored in /var or /srv
 because in the end they're bits on a disk so where in the file system
 they end up doesn't matter. /var was chosen years ago by Unix admins
 so why change it to /srv?

Not quite.  It is more a matter of a standard only being useful if 
everyone does what it says.  Picking a new location that no one 
currently uses is always the worst possible choice.

 My argument is that those same Unix admins no doubt placed it there
 because it made functional sense at the time.

It is not a functional thing.  It's a name.

 Over the years that
 location became a convention and therefore became an arbitrary
 location. The LSB is reviewing that same functional choice in light of
 what changes have occurred in how we use servers and they feel that it
 makes more functional sense to break those files out into their own
 tree.

Names are arbitrary.  If you make up a new one, you ensure that you 
break everything that already had one - and that's mostly what the LSB 
has done so far.

 As far as breaking tradition from Unix, last time I checked porting an
 app of reasonable size over from Linux to Unix is not a simple
 process.

Linus started out with the idea of emulating Solaris/SysVr4.  If that's 
not what happened, it is a failing of Linux.  And Posix imposed 
additional standards along the way.  And of course java came along and 
made it possible to run things portably in spite of the OS attempts to 
prevent that.

 The choice to put client facing files in one directory or
 another is a minor part, at best, of that process.

Aren't all files 'client facing' if the machine has a purpose?  What 
other reason would you have for any files?

 I agree with you on standardizing libraries but I fail to see how that
 has any relevance to where an admin should place their client facing
 files.

Standardizing libraries would be a functional reason to embrace the LSB. 
  Otherwise it makes about as much sense as having a committee make up 
new names for your kids.   If mount points and volume sizes were also 
standardized, it might be reasonable to standardize what goes where, but 
they aren't and shouldn't be because the machines will differ in size 
and purpose.

-- 
   Les Mikesell
 lesmikes...@gmail.com


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Alan McKay

I've been generally unhappy with my CentOS desktop both at home and at
work, when it comes to thinks like sound and video.

I'd recommend going with Fedora Core, to be honest.   Much as I love
CentOS on my servers.




-- 
“Don't eat anything you've ever seen advertised on TV”
 - Michael Pollan, author of In Defense of Food
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Ron Blizzard wrote:
 
 I've been generally unhappy with my CentOS desktop both at home and at
 work, when it comes to thinks like sound and video.

 I'd recommend going with Fedora Core, to be honest.   Much as I love
 CentOS on my servers.
 
 I like stability over cutting edge, so CentOS (with multimedia from
 RPMForge) is working fine for me on my desktop and laptop computers. I
 don't hate Fedora, but I don't like the constant updates. But, if I
 didn't have the CentOS option, I'm pretty sure Fedora would be my next
 choice.

Fedora has the advantage to a RHEL/CentOS user of having the same 
install/admin tools.  But if you are turning the box over to someone 
else, Ubuntu makes much more of an effort to be user friendly.  And they 
haven't been quite so bad as Fedora about refusing to admit that 
proprietary code exists.

-- 
   Les Mikesell
lesmikes...@gmail.com

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Alan McKay

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Ron Blizzard rb4cen...@gmail.com wrote:
 I like stability over cutting edge, so CentOS (with multimedia from
 RPMForge)

What are the details on MM from RPMForge?

If I could get my MM working I'd be happy.   I like stability too,
which is why I use it on my servers.   But for desktop use, MM is
pretty much a must-have.  And I've used Fedora for years with no real
issues.  Switched to CentOS for desktop because it is recommended at
my new job.  So I switched at home too.



-- 
“Don't eat anything you've ever seen advertised on TV”
 - Michael Pollan, author of In Defense of Food
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Tait Clarridge

On Tue, 2009-09-29 at 15:38 -0400, Alan McKay wrote:
 I've been generally unhappy with my CentOS desktop both at home and at
 work, when it comes to thinks like sound and video.
 
 I'd recommend going with Fedora Core, to be honest.   Much as I love
 CentOS on my servers.
 
 

This is more a reply to the general thread, not Alan's answer above.

When I first picked up Linux for personal use I had tried CentOS and
found that it was not properly or easily configured for any multimedia
use. This was when I was starting to use Linux and didn't have the
patience to configure everything. 

This is when I switched to Fedora for personal use, I have used Fedora
Core 8 through 11 and haven't found any major issues configuring it for
what I need. 

There can be issues with any distribution regarding HD sound, but if you
google them the answers are almost always there. That is all I've had
major problems with in running it on my laptops.

I use a Toshiba laptop and it has worked flawlessly through each of the
versions (except for the sound problems noted above). 

CentOS is great for server use and if you want to learn CentOS for use
as a server, Fedora is a great place to start because they are both
redhat based. Chances are that if you got something to work in Fedora,
you can get it to work in CentOS (maybe with a few extra tweaks).

I am not an Ubuntu basher, but I felt it was babying me a little too
much. More than I would want to when learning a new system. Nothing like
trial by fire to grow your linux knowledge.

With most Linux installations you will end up tweaking something that
isn't working as advertised. I am not trying to scare you away from
linux, but in my experience it has been the case that I had to get my
hands dirty on more than one occasion.

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Alan McKay

 I am not an Ubuntu basher, but I felt it was babying me a little too
 much.

Hmmm, maybe that's what I should put on my wife's laptop :-)

I already know Linux very well - been a UNIX geek for over 20 years,
and Linux geek for getting on 10 now.   And I still get frustrated
with how difficult it can be to set up multimedia!


-- 
“Don't eat anything you've ever seen advertised on TV”
 - Michael Pollan, author of In Defense of Food
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Rob Kampen



Alan McKay wrote:

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Ron Blizzard rb4cen...@gmail.com wrote:
  

I like stability over cutting edge, so CentOS (with multimedia from
RPMForge)



What are the details on MM from RPMForge?

If I could get my MM working I'd be happy.   I like stability too,
which is why I use it on my servers.   But for desktop use, MM is
pretty much a must-have.  And I've used Fedora for years with no real
issues.  Switched to CentOS for desktop because it is recommended at
my new job.  So I switched at home too.



  
I have been using CentOS 5.x for MM for the last two years (DVB capture 
card in a small microATX box)
complete with two 500GB SATA drives and two DVD rear/write drives with 
motherboard audio (stereo and sub).
I run mythtv and store capture video local but the myth database is on 
my home CentOS (of course) server.
Getting the initial mythTV installed was difficult but since then 
despite numerous updates everything just works (TM).

Rob
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Tait Clarridge

On Tue, 2009-09-29 at 16:14 -0400, Alan McKay wrote:
  I am not an Ubuntu basher, but I felt it was babying me a little too
  much.
 
 Hmmm, maybe that's what I should put on my wife's laptop :-)
 
 I already know Linux very well - been a UNIX geek for over 20 years,
 and Linux geek for getting on 10 now.   And I still get frustrated
 with how difficult it can be to set up multimedia!
 

True. Fedora/CentOS can be less intimidating and Ubuntu more user friendly.. 
but where is the fun in that?


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Marcelo M. Garcia

Sorin Srbu wrote:
 -Original Message-
 From: centos-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-boun...@centos.org] On
 Behalf
 Of Matt
 Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 11:29 PM
 To: CentOS mailing list
 Subject: Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

 Thats my thought as well.  Ubuntu desktop and CentOS for servers.
 Just wandering if anyone is using the 'Ubuntu Server Edition's'?  They
 seem appealing but CentOS is what I am used too on servers now.
 Thought about loading it up on a box to just try though.

 Not using, but I've tried it in a LAMP-configuration couple of years ago.
 Stability seems ok, but personally I don't like the sudo this and sudo that
 and sudo everywhere. Besides, it felt somehow clunky. CentOS seemed slim,
 slick and fast compared at the time, so CentOS is what I got stuck with (in
 an endearing sense of course).

 HTH.
Hi Sorin

You can sudo bash and you will have a root terminal. In it, you can 
set the root password for root.

Regards

mg.

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Drew

 Not quite.  It is more a matter of a standard only being useful if
 everyone does what it says.  Picking a new location that no one
 currently uses is always the worst possible choice.

So are revolutions but those seem to work well on occasion. :-)


 My argument is that those same Unix admins no doubt placed it there
 because it made functional sense at the time.

 It is not a functional thing.  It's a name.

A name is a way to for a person to remember an object or a concept.
Names can then be arranged and organized. How names are organized is
important in the context of how and where the users and admins
interact with them. It may not make a functional difference to apache
that the website resides in /srv/www instead of /var/www but it may
matter to the admin that client facing data stays away from machine
files.


 Linus started out with the idea of emulating Solaris/SysVr4.  If that's
 not what happened, it is a failing of Linux.

It didn't and I wouldn't call that a failing. Linux has outgrown it's
original roots and is now a full fledged operating system competing
with Unix.


 Aren't all files 'client facing' if the machine has a purpose?  What
 other reason would you have for any files?

How about performance logs, access logs, and audit logs? All of which
are stuff you would put in /var and I'm sure we can agree you wouldn't
want the client to see those until they've been processed. So not
everything faces the client.


 I agree with you on standardizing libraries but I fail to see how that
 has any relevance to where an admin should place their client facing
 files.

 Standardizing libraries would be a functional reason to embrace the LSB.
  Otherwise it makes about as much sense as having a committee make up
 new names for your kids.   If mount points and volume sizes were also
 standardized, it might be reasonable to standardize what goes where, but
 they aren't and shouldn't be because the machines will differ in size
 and purpose.

I don't think you're understanding my argument here. I'm not arguing
against library standardization, in fact I'm for it, nor am I arguing
about the purpose of the LSB. What I am trying to ask is what
relevance does the LSB's existence and/or library standardization have
to do with the FHS, and specifically the /srv folder? As far as I'm
concerned the FHS could have been written by RedHat, IBM, or Oracle
and would in no way impact discussing the relevance of the /srv
folder.


-- 
Drew

Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood.
--Marie Curie
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Drew wrote:
 Not quite.  It is more a matter of a standard only being useful if
 everyone does what it says.  Picking a new location that no one
 currently uses is always the worst possible choice.
 
 So are revolutions but those seem to work well on occasion. :-)

Only for the survivors.

 My argument is that those same Unix admins no doubt placed it there
 because it made functional sense at the time.
 It is not a functional thing.  It's a name.
 
 A name is a way to for a person to remember an object or a concept.

Yes, and once they have been established it is simply confusing to 
invent a bunch of new terms for the same things.

 Names can then be arranged and organized. How names are organized is
 important in the context of how and where the users and admins
 interact with them.

Yes, but keep in mind that these same users and admins are very likely 
to interact with systems that are not Linux and LSB compliant also.

  It may not make a functional difference to apache
 that the website resides in /srv/www instead of /var/www but it may
 matter to the admin that client facing data stays away from machine
 files.

The name of the place they stay is irrelevant.  And it's still not clear 
what you mean by a client, or how one piece of data is different from 
another.

 Aren't all files 'client facing' if the machine has a purpose?  What
 other reason would you have for any files?
 
 How about performance logs, access logs, and audit logs?

How about them?  If I want to access them through a web interface, does 
that make me a client?  How is it different than using ssh and cat?

  All of which
 are stuff you would put in /var and I'm sure we can agree you wouldn't
 want the client to see those until they've been processed. So not
 everything faces the client.

What kind of server these days doesn't process everything before 
displaying it?  Besides, am I not a client?  Does a web service have to 
serve different people than other kinds of services?  How does the type 
of service relate to the type of data involved?  Yes, I want ways to 
isolate different users and groups of users, but it is very likely that 
I'll want the same service protocols serving different sets and the 
categories won't fit neatly under something a committee makes up.

 I agree with you on standardizing libraries but I fail to see how that
 has any relevance to where an admin should place their client facing
 files.
 Standardizing libraries would be a functional reason to embrace the LSB.
  Otherwise it makes about as much sense as having a committee make up
 new names for your kids.   If mount points and volume sizes were also
 standardized, it might be reasonable to standardize what goes where, but
 they aren't and shouldn't be because the machines will differ in size
 and purpose.
 
 I don't think you're understanding my argument here. I'm not arguing
 against library standardization, in fact I'm for it, nor am I arguing
 about the purpose of the LSB. What I am trying to ask is what
 relevance does the LSB's existence and/or library standardization have
 to do with the FHS, and specifically the /srv folder?

OK, so what relevance does /srv have?  What works after you go to the 
trouble of moving things to this new location that didn't work exactly 
the same way wherever you had it before?

 As far as I'm
 concerned the FHS could have been written by RedHat, IBM, or Oracle
 and would in no way impact discussing the relevance of the /srv
 folder. 

It doesn't have any relevance by itself.  Things will work if you put 
them under /srv.  They will work if you don't put them there.  What's to 
discuss about it?  What we do need in package-oriented distributions are 
places that are clearly out of scope for package installations, and it 
would be sort-of nice if 3rd party repos had non-conflicting locations 
for each to drop potentially conflicting items.  But the committee 
didn't address the stuff we actually need.

-- 
   Les Mikesell
 lesmikes...@gmail.com




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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Christopher Chan

Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:
 Sorin Srbu wrote:
   
 -Original Message-
 From: centos-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-boun...@centos.org] On
   
 Behalf
 
 Of Matt
 Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 11:29 PM
 To: CentOS mailing list
 Subject: Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

 Thats my thought as well.  Ubuntu desktop and CentOS for servers.
 Just wandering if anyone is using the 'Ubuntu Server Edition's'?  They
 seem appealing but CentOS is what I am used too on servers now.
 Thought about loading it up on a box to just try though.
   
 Not using, but I've tried it in a LAMP-configuration couple of years ago.
 Stability seems ok, but personally I don't like the sudo this and sudo that
 and sudo everywhere. Besides, it felt somehow clunky. CentOS seemed slim,
 slick and fast compared at the time, so CentOS is what I got stuck with (in
 an endearing sense of course).

 HTH.
 
 Hi Sorin

 You can sudo bash and you will have a root terminal. In it, you can 
 set the root password for root.

   
And break a couple of things IIRC. There are whole arguments about doing 
that.
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Alan McKay alan.mc...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Ron Blizzard rb4cen...@gmail.com wrote:
 I like stability over cutting edge, so CentOS (with multimedia from
 RPMForge)

 What are the details on MM from RPMForge?

 If I could get my MM working I'd be happy.   I like stability too,
 which is why I use it on my servers.   But for desktop use, MM is
 pretty much a must-have.  And I've used Fedora for years with no real
 issues.  Switched to CentOS for desktop because it is recommended at
 my new job.  So I switched at home too.

I think these are the instructions I used the first couple times I
installed CentOS 5.x. It might be overkill, but it worked for me.

http://www.sklav.com/?q=node/2

-- 
RonB -- Using CentOS 5.3
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote:

 Fedora has the advantage to a RHEL/CentOS user of having the same
 install/admin tools.  But if you are turning the box over to someone
 else, Ubuntu makes much more of an effort to be user friendly.  And they
 haven't been quite so bad as Fedora about refusing to admit that
 proprietary code exists.

I set my brother up with CentOS 5.3 because, since I'm the one who is
going to maintain it, it might as well be something I understand and
like. He and his family seem to get along fine with it. When I go
over, I usually just run a quick update and make sure everything is
working up to snuff. Since he has VirtualBox on it, I also maintain
that -- mostly by rebuilding its kernel when the CentOS kernel is
updated.

(Not that I don't think that there are a lot of good Linux
distributions out there.)

-- 
RonB -- Using CentOS 5.3
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Tait Clarridge t...@clarridge.ca wrote:

 CentOS is great for server use and if you want to learn CentOS for use
 as a server, Fedora is a great place to start because they are both
 redhat based. Chances are that if you got something to work in Fedora,
 you can get it to work in CentOS (maybe with a few extra tweaks).

I don't have any servers. I like CentOS on my desktop and my laptop
just because it's solid. It's also the Linux distribution of choice
for most Asterisk platforms -- which I intend to (eventually) learn.
(I'm a telephone tech, who is eventually going to have to go VOIP.)

-- 
RonB -- Using CentOS 5.3
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-29 Thread Lanny Marcus

On 9/25/09, Anne Wilson cannewil...@googlemail.com wrote:
 On Friday 25 September 2009 17:02:24 Lanny Marcus wrote:
 On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Anne Wilson cannewil...@googlemail.com
 wrote:
  I'm thinking of giving CentOS to a non-tech user for her new desktop.
  He
  needs are small.  She has been used to Mozilla for both mail and
  browsing, so
snip
 I
 have installed one package from the FC6 DVD (KDEEDU) on CentOS 5 (32
 bit) to get KStars and that worked fine. But, as Phil pointed out,
 maybe better to rebuild from the srpm.

 Sounds encouraging, thanks.

Anne: Forget the part about using binary RPMs from FC6 or any other
distro. I have been reading the list, catching up on reading tonight,
and Johnny made it very clear, 1 or 2 days ago, in another thread,
this is *not* something to be done. Best to rebuild the SRPM.
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-28 Thread Johnny Hughes

On 09/27/2009 08:09 AM, Robert Heller wrote:
 At Sun, 27 Sep 2009 09:13:04 +0200 CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org 
 wrote:
 

 m.r...@5-cent.us a Ã©crit :

 I'd add in the search RHELyour release, at least to start. Beyond that,
 some other distro, such as mandrake, may have compatible rpms.

 No! Never use Mandrake RPMS on RHEL.
 
 Never say never:
 
 I have *successfully* used RPMS from both Mandrake and SUSE on a CentOS
 4.x system.  Both RPMs are somewhat specialized developemental ones
 though. 
 

Sure, it is possible, if you get very lucky, to do so.  However, even if
packages install because a dependent library is available (take
/lib/libc.so.6 for example) it does not mean that they are similar
enough to work.

RHEL/CentOS glibc has dozens of patches that are different than Mandriva
or SUSE.  They also put things in and look for things from different
places than CentOS.

So, one should think long and hard before (at the very least) before
installing programs not built for/using CentOS/RHEL on CentOS.




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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-28 Thread Sorin Srbu

-Original Message-
From: centos-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-boun...@centos.org] On
Behalf
Of Marcelo M. Garcia
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 8:57 PM
To: CentOS mailing list
Subject: Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Sorry, but Fedora is no longer a good desktop choice. I was a Fedora
user, but the distribution is pushing to far the idea of cutting edge
features.

Would you mind elaborating your view here?
-- 
/Sorin


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-28 Thread Marcelo M. Garcia

Sorin Srbu wrote:
 -Original Message-
 From: centos-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-boun...@centos.org] On
 Behalf
 Of Marcelo M. Garcia
 Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 8:57 PM
 To: CentOS mailing list
 Subject: Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

 Sorry, but Fedora is no longer a good desktop choice. I was a Fedora
 user, but the distribution is pushing to far the idea of cutting edge
 features.

 Would you mind elaborating your view here?

Hi

To be honest there isn't much to elaborate. I understand the goal Fedora 
project to test the latest software available. In this way, Fedora isn't 
for everyone. At least is not for your main system, but if you have a 
spare machine to install and play with it, it's probably a good idea. In 
my case, the rpmfusion NVIDIA driver didn't like my card, a Quadro NVS280.

I there are too many updates, and sometimes they crash something. I 
remember while using Fedora 10, after disappointment with F9, after an 
update, the sound stopped to work. I didn't like the idea of Thunderbird 
beta in F 12. Also, the external drives are mounted using the uuid(?) 
name, so instead of /media/disk, appears something like 
/media/88299233ddd22, which breaks my backup/recover script. And a few 
other thinks. My general option was that the experience wasn't good, or 
put in another way, Ubuntu works better.

None of this is critical, but it is annoying. For me, a good 
distribuition would be something seating between Fedora and CentOS. In 
the last months I started thinking that Ubuntu feel this gap. I still 
believe that CentOS is best option for servers and technical 
workstations, but not for my laptop, a Dell XPS M1530.

Regards

mg.
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-28 Thread Matt

 I'm thinking of giving CentOS to a non-tech user for her new desktop.  He
 needs are small.  She has been used to Mozilla for both mail and browsing, so
 equivalents there are not a problem.  She needs grip and lame, for her mp3s -
 again no problem.

 Desktop, non-techie - use Ubuntu instead.

 I'm a big CentOS fan, I joined even the Facebook group (lol), but its

Thats my thought as well.  Ubuntu desktop and CentOS for servers.
Just wandering if anyone is using the 'Ubuntu Server Edition's'?  They
seem appealing but CentOS is what I am used too on servers now.
Thought about loading it up on a box to just try though.

Matt
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-28 Thread Robert Heller

At Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:29:12 -0500 CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org
wrote:

I'm thinking of giving CentOS to a non-tech user for her new desktop. Â He
needs are small. Â She has been used to Mozilla for both mail and
browsing, so
equivalents there are not a problem. Â She needs grip and lame, for her
mp3s -
again no problem.

Desktop, non-techie - use Ubuntu instead.

I'm a big CentOS fan, I joined even the Facebook group (lol), but its

Thats my thought as well. Ubuntu desktop and CentOS for servers.
Just wandering if anyone is using the 'Ubuntu Server Edition's'? They
seem appealing but CentOS is what I am used too on servers now.
Thought about loading it up on a box to just try though.

I use CentOS on my desktop and my Laptop.

It is also the version I set up at the local library(1), which *used* to
have Ubuntu. There where two main problems with Ubuntu:

1) Ubuntu really needs more frequent total updates (it is not a
long-term stable release). The Ubuntu system that was on the local
library's server was unable to get updates (apt-get would fail -- I
ended up manually downloading packages and installing by hand (using raw
dpkg commands -- ala using raw rpm instead of yum).

2) Ubuntu generally sucked as a server O/S -- it was trying to be way
too clever about some things -- drove me up the wall (doing *stupid*
things like constantly automounting the USB connected backup disk
whenever someone logged in and swaping the ethernet cards around,
seemingly at random).

CentOS as a desktop system (or laptop) is perfectly fine, *even for
non-techies*, which would most of the users at the local library. I
guess the only issue would be in terms of support for really new
hardware (which is not an issue at the local library, since the
hardware not this years model). One can get the 'missing' multimedia
goodies from RPMForge or EPel (or even from Adobe's repo [flash and
acroread]).

(1)
http://www.deepsoft.com/2009/08/setting-up-thin-clients-at-the-wendell-free-library-part-1/

Matt
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-28 Thread aurfalien

I'd like to chime in on this.

Being techy. nothing really bugs me as I think its all POS.

However I do think the Linux desktop is not so good in general.

I've been a big fan of Irix and used to maintain it when it was the
golden child of the Unix desktop.

I've been following the 5dwm project for a while;

http://www.maxxdesktop.com/site/

Anyways, check it out, hope ppl find it use full. Eric Masson was
brilliant for getting this project up and running.

On Sep 28, 2009, at 4:57 PM, Robert Heller wrote:

At Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:29:12 -0500 CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org
wrote:

I'm thinking of giving CentOS to a non-tech user for her new
desktop. He
needs are small. She has been used to Mozilla for both mail and
browsing, so
equivalents there are not a problem. She needs grip and lame,
for her mp3s -
again no problem.

Desktop, non-techie - use Ubuntu instead.

I'm a big CentOS fan, I joined even the Facebook group (lol), but
its

Thats my thought as well. Ubuntu desktop and CentOS for servers.
Just wandering if anyone is using the 'Ubuntu Server Edition's'?
They
seem appealing but CentOS is what I am used too on servers now.
Thought about loading it up on a box to just try though.

I use CentOS on my desktop and my Laptop.

It is also the version I set up at the local library(1), which
*used* to
have Ubuntu. There where two main problems with Ubuntu:

1) Ubuntu really needs more frequent total updates (it is not a
long-term stable release). The Ubuntu system that was on the local
library's server was unable to get updates (apt-get would fail -- I
ended up manually downloading packages and installing by hand (using
raw
dpkg commands -- ala using raw rpm instead of yum).

(1)
http://www.deepsoft.com/2009/08/setting-up-thin-clients-at-the-wendell-free-library-part-1/

Matt
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-28 Thread Christopher Chan

Matt wrote:
 I'm thinking of giving CentOS to a non-tech user for her new desktop.  He
 needs are small.  She has been used to Mozilla for both mail and browsing, 
 so
 equivalents there are not a problem.  She needs grip and lame, for her mp3s 
 -
 again no problem.
   
 Desktop, non-techie - use Ubuntu instead.

 I'm a big CentOS fan, I joined even the Facebook group (lol), but its
 

 Thats my thought as well.  Ubuntu desktop and CentOS for servers.
 Just wandering if anyone is using the 'Ubuntu Server Edition's'?  They
 seem appealing but CentOS is what I am used too on servers now.
 Thought about loading it up on a box to just try though.
   


Ubuntu for desktop is really a give and take. You get some stuff 
conveniently done for you like Nvidia drivers (which, I believe is also 
doable on Centos with a certain repo...cannot remember which) but you 
may also have to handle random crap like Network Manager not setting 
things up properly.


Centos as a desktop is good enough if you do not need the latest version 
of Firefox or other stuff.
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-27 Thread Niki Kovacs

m.r...@5-cent.us a écrit :

 I'd add in the search RHELyour release, at least to start. Beyond that,
 some other distro, such as mandrake, may have compatible rpms.

No! Never use Mandrake RPMS on RHEL.

My advice for third-party applications:

1) Use RPMS from RPMForge repo.

2) If your app/lib/tool/whatever is still not available, go to 
http://rpm.pbone.net, and make an advanced search for SRPMS in the 
following categories:

* CentOS 5
* RHEL 5
* FC 6

Note: sometimes, SRPMS from more recent versions of Fedora will also 
work, but that depends on what it is.

Have fun,

Niki
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-27 Thread Robert Heller

At Sun, 27 Sep 2009 09:13:04 +0200 CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org 
wrote:

 
 m.r...@5-cent.us a Ã©crit :
 
  I'd add in the search RHELyour release, at least to start. Beyond that,
  some other distro, such as mandrake, may have compatible rpms.
 
 No! Never use Mandrake RPMS on RHEL.

Never say never:

I have *successfully* used RPMS from both Mandrake and SUSE on a CentOS
4.x system.  Both RPMs are somewhat specialized developemental ones
though. 

 
 My advice for third-party applications:
 
 1) Use RPMS from RPMForge repo.
 
 2) If your app/lib/tool/whatever is still not available, go to 
 http://rpm.pbone.net, and make an advanced search for SRPMS in the 
 following categories:
 
   * CentOS 5
   * RHEL 5
   * FC 6
 
 Note: sometimes, SRPMS from more recent versions of Fedora will also 
 work, but that depends on what it is.
 
 Have fun,
 
 Niki
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Deepwoods Software-- Download the Model Railroad System
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Binaries for Linux and MS-Windows
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-27 Thread Karanbir Singh

On 24/09/09 21:32, Paul Heinlein wrote:
 I really wish RH would hop on the /srv bus. The broad distinction is
 fairly easy to grasp: /var for variable data of general interest to
 the machine, /srv for stuff related to a specific service. In general,
 /var is machine-generated, /srv is person-generated.

what does the lsb haveto say about this ?

- KB
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-27 Thread Christoph Maser

Am Sonntag, den 27.09.2009, 15:17 +0200 schrieb Karanbir Singh:
 On 24/09/09 21:32, Paul Heinlein wrote:
  I really wish RH would hop on the /srv bus. The broad distinction is
  fairly easy to grasp: /var for variable data of general interest to
  the machine, /srv for stuff related to a specific service. In general,
  /var is machine-generated, /srv is person-generated.

 what does the lsb haveto say about this ?

 - KB


LSB says:
An LSB conforming implementation shall provide the mandatory portions
of the file system hierarchy specified in the Filesystem Hierarchy
Standard (FHS), together with any additional requirements made in this
specification.

And the FHS says for /srv:

The methodology used to name subdirectories of /srv is unspecified as
there is currently no consensus on how this should be done. One method
for structuring data under /srv is by protocol, eg. ftp, rsync, www, and
cvs.

and for /var
/var contains variable data files. This includes spool directories and
files, administrative and logging data, and transient and temporary
files.


So I don't see consensus here. What if my served data ist variable
data? An no distinction between man made or machine made is given here.
Also this might not be flexible enough for some scenarios.

Chris



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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-27 Thread Drew

 So I don't see consensus here. What if my served data ist variable
 data? An no distinction between man made or machine made is given here.
 Also this might not be flexible enough for some scenarios.

Is the data being stored customer facing or internal to the machine?

That's the rule of thumb I see applied to what goes in /srv. In a LAMP
box for example I'd expect to see the website(and site logs), database
files, and POP3/IMAP spools stored in srv directories. Machine
specific data like system logs and email processing spools get stored
in /var.


-- 
Drew

Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood.
--Marie Curie
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-26 Thread Niki Kovacs

Matt a écrit :
 I have always used Ubuntu for desktop linux and CentOS for servers.
 Have never tried CentOS as a desktop.  Perhaps I should?
 

One look is worth a thousand words, as they say :

http://www.microlinux.fr/captures.html

My Linux desktop, based on CentOS 5.3, tweaked to death with all the 
extra stuff like working Flash, working Java plugin, working codecs, 
extra packages from RPMForge as well as my own repository. Will play 
every audio and video format under the sun, and it's just about to make 
coffee also :o)

This is the exact same desktop I usually install for my clients. Comes 
on two homegrown custom CDs with install scripts, so installing it on a 
fairy recent desktop takes no more than half an hour.

Does everything that the average Ubuntu/Mint desktop is supposed to do, 
that is, minus the bugs and the worries.

Policy: I install it, the user uses it. Period.

Works like a charm.

Cheers,

Niki
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Niki Kovacs wrote:
 Matt a écrit :
 I have always used Ubuntu for desktop linux and CentOS for servers.
 Have never tried CentOS as a desktop.  Perhaps I should?

 
 One look is worth a thousand words, as they say :
 
 http://www.microlinux.fr/captures.html
 
 My Linux desktop, based on CentOS 5.3, tweaked to death with all the 
 extra stuff like working Flash, working Java plugin, working codecs, 
 extra packages from RPMForge as well as my own repository. Will play 
 every audio and video format under the sun, and it's just about to make 
 coffee also :o)
 
 This is the exact same desktop I usually install for my clients. Comes 
 on two homegrown custom CDs with install scripts, so installing it on a 
 fairy recent desktop takes no more than half an hour.
 
 Does everything that the average Ubuntu/Mint desktop is supposed to do, 
 that is, minus the bugs and the worries.
 
 Policy: I install it, the user uses it. Period.
 
 Works like a charm.

Can the install script be simplified to rpm installs of the http urls to the 
yum 
repo release files followed by yum installs of a list of packages?  And if so, 
can someone publish that script?

-- 
   Les Mikesell
lesmikes...@gmail.com

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-26 Thread Niki Kovacs

Les Mikesell a écrit :

 Can the install script be simplified to rpm installs of the http urls to the 
 yum 
 repo release files followed by yum installs of a list of packages?  And if 
 so, 
 can someone publish that script?
 

Not really. Before discovering CentOS (around 2006), I've been a 
die-hard Slackware user, so my two install CDs are a bit like a set of 
two Slackware CDs. Which means, a loose set of directories with stuff in 
them, plus scripts to install them. For example, directories like x11/, 
nvidia/, ati/ and compiz/, with stuff in them, which I install only if 
needed. As for the configuration, I do everything (X11, network, ...) by 
hand, using Vi.

Here's an example. I have a directory java/, with the latest java from 
sun.com, plus the following script:

#!/bin/bash
#
CWD=`pwd`
cp jre-6u14-linux-i586.bin /opt
chmod +c /opt/jre-6u14-linux-i586.bin
{
   cd /opt
   rm -rf jre1.6.0_14
   rm -f /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/libjavaplugin_oji.so
   sh jre-6u14-linux-i586.bin
   rm -f jre-6u14-linux-i586.bin
}
ln -s /opt/jre1.6.0_14/plugin/i386/ns7/libjavaplugin_oji.so \
   /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/
cat  /etc/profile.d/java.sh  EOF
export J2RE_HOME=/opt/jre1.6.0_14
export PATH=$J2RE_HOME/bin:$PATH
EOF
chmod +x /etc/profile.d/java.sh
source /etc/profile.d/java.sh
alternatives --install /usr/bin/java java /opt/jre1.6.0_14/bin/java 2
alternatives --config java

Or, other example, the w32codecs/ directory with the following script:

#!/bin/bash
#
# codecs-install.sh

CWD=`pwd`

rm -rf /usr/lib/codecs
rm -rf /usr/lib/win32

tar xjf $CWD/all-20071007.tar.bz2 -C /usr/lib
{
   cd /usr/lib
   mv all-20071007 codecs
   ln -s codecs win32
}

This logic applies pretty much to everything. But it's not really an 
installer.

Of course, it *could* be possible to publish some more user-friendly set 
of install CDs, but this would be a hell of a lot of work, and you'd end 
up with something like Yellowdog Linux (which is based on CentOS).

Cheers,

Niki
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Niki Kovacs wrote:
 Les Mikesell a écrit :
 
 Can the install script be simplified to rpm installs of the http urls to the 
 yum 
 repo release files followed by yum installs of a list of packages?  And if 
 so, 
 can someone publish that script?

 
 Not really. Before discovering CentOS (around 2006), I've been a 
 die-hard Slackware user, so my two install CDs are a bit like a set of 
 two Slackware CDs. Which means, a loose set of directories with stuff in 
 them, plus scripts to install them. For example, directories like x11/, 
 nvidia/, ati/ and compiz/, with stuff in them, which I install only if 
 needed. As for the configuration, I do everything (X11, network, ...) by 
 hand, using Vi.
 
 Here's an example. I have a directory java/, with the latest java from 
 sun.com, plus the following script:
 
 #!/bin/bash
 #
 CWD=`pwd`
 cp jre-6u14-linux-i586.bin /opt
 chmod +c /opt/jre-6u14-linux-i586.bin
 {
cd /opt
rm -rf jre1.6.0_14
rm -f /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/libjavaplugin_oji.so
sh jre-6u14-linux-i586.bin
rm -f jre-6u14-linux-i586.bin
 }
 ln -s /opt/jre1.6.0_14/plugin/i386/ns7/libjavaplugin_oji.so \
/usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/
 cat  /etc/profile.d/java.sh  EOF
 export J2RE_HOME=/opt/jre1.6.0_14
 export PATH=$J2RE_HOME/bin:$PATH
 EOF
 chmod +x /etc/profile.d/java.sh
 source /etc/profile.d/java.sh
 alternatives --install /usr/bin/java java /opt/jre1.6.0_14/bin/java 2
 alternatives --config java
 
 Or, other example, the w32codecs/ directory with the following script:
 
 #!/bin/bash
 #
 # codecs-install.sh
 
 CWD=`pwd`
 
 rm -rf /usr/lib/codecs
 rm -rf /usr/lib/win32
 
 tar xjf $CWD/all-20071007.tar.bz2 -C /usr/lib
 {
cd /usr/lib
mv all-20071007 codecs
ln -s codecs win32
 }
 
 This logic applies pretty much to everything. But it's not really an 
 installer.
 
 Of course, it *could* be possible to publish some more user-friendly set 
 of install CDs, but this would be a hell of a lot of work, and you'd end 
 up with something like Yellowdog Linux (which is based on CentOS).

But that leaves you in charge of maintaining and updating every piece you 
install or leaving the systems in a lurch if you don't and there are subsequent 
security/bug fixes.  The whole point of having an enterprise-type long-life 
distribution is that you don't have to do that. If there is a well maintained 
3rd party repo that has the components you need packaged for yum it would be 
much better to take advantage of it.   Sun java used to be something of a 
special case because few sites were willing to host a copy packaged to 
accommodate the RH-style wierdness (I generally used the k12ltsp distro based 
on 
Centos specifically for this) but now that openjdk is included in 5.3 and in 
epel it is not so much of an issue.

-- 
   Les Mikesell
lesmikes...@gmail.com



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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-26 Thread mark

Niki Kovacs wrote:
 Les Mikesell a écrit :
snip
 Here's an example. I have a directory java/, with the latest java from 
 sun.com, plus the following script:
snip
I've just become familiar with alternatives, and now wonder why no one created 
that a decade ago.

mark
-- 
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing
  in common.  Instead of altering their views to fit the
  facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which
  can be very uncomfortable if you happen to
  be one of the facts that needs altering. - Doctor Who

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

mark wrote:
 Niki Kovacs wrote:
 Les Mikesell a écrit :
 snip
 Here's an example. I have a directory java/, with the latest java from 
 sun.com, plus the following script:
 snip
 I've just become familiar with alternatives, and now wonder why no one 
 created 
 that a decade ago.

It's not a real good fit for things like java where you really want to be able 
to run multiple versions simultaneously, depending on the user, the app, or the 
intended purpose (perhaps testing the next release while production apps 
continue to use the older one).

-- 
   Les Mikesell
lesmikes...@gmail.com
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-26 Thread mark

Les Mikesell wrote:
 mark wrote:
 Niki Kovacs wrote:
 Les Mikesell a écrit :
 snip
 Here's an example. I have a directory java/, with the latest java from 
 sun.com, plus the following script:
 snip
 I've just become familiar with alternatives, and now wonder why no one 
 created 
 that a decade ago.
 
 It's not a real good fit for things like java where you really want to be 
 able 
 to run multiple versions simultaneously, depending on the user, the app, or 
 the 
 intended purpose (perhaps testing the next release while production apps 
 continue to use the older one).
 
I gather, thought that is what JAVA_HOME is for

mark

-- 
America was *not* built by rugged individualists. - whitroth
We must all hang together, or we shall all hang separately - B. Franklin

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

mark wrote:
 Les Mikesell wrote:
 mark wrote:
 Niki Kovacs wrote:
 Les Mikesell a écrit :
 snip
 Here's an example. I have a directory java/, with the latest java from 
 sun.com, plus the following script:
 snip
 I've just become familiar with alternatives, and now wonder why no one 
 created 
 that a decade ago.
 It's not a real good fit for things like java where you really want to be 
 able 
 to run multiple versions simultaneously, depending on the user, the app, or 
 the 
 intended purpose (perhaps testing the next release while production apps 
 continue to use the older one).

 I gather, thought that is what JAVA_HOME is for

Yes, but you also need to know where that is, and the correct path to the 
executable you want, which the alternatives system goes out of its way to hide. 
  And if you want different builds/patchlevels of the same minor rev, the RPM 
system itself will make it difficult.

-- 
Les Mikesell
  lesmikes...@gmail.com
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-26 Thread Niki Kovacs

Les Mikesell a écrit :

 But that leaves you in charge of maintaining and updating every piece you 
 install or leaving the systems in a lurch if you don't and there are 
 subsequent 
 security/bug fixes.  The whole point of having an enterprise-type long-life 
 distribution is that you don't have to do that. 

Well, 'yum update' should fix that, except for the odd extra package 
(Java, OpenOffice.org, codecs etc.)

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-25 Thread Anne Wilson

On Thursday 24 September 2009 20:03:04 Curt Mills wrote:
 On Thu, 24 Sep 2009, Anne Wilson wrote:
  On Thursday 24 September 2009 17:50:37 Ron Loftin wrote:
  My image of the low-tech user is the one who surfs the Web, reads and
  writes e-mail, and does the odd letter or maybe even a spreadsheet in
  some office tool, along with maybe some simple games.  My experience
  with this category of user is that when they stumble across something
  unfamiliar or want some additional function, they pick up the phone and
  call me.
 
  I recognise that description ;-D
 
 It's the Give a man a fish/Teach a man to fish scenario.

Some people would rather visit the fishmonger, and it's their right to make 
that decision.

Anne
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-25 Thread Les Mikesell

Anne Wilson wrote:
 On Thursday 24 September 2009 20:03:04 Curt Mills wrote:
 On Thu, 24 Sep 2009, Anne Wilson wrote:
 On Thursday 24 September 2009 17:50:37 Ron Loftin wrote:
 My image of the low-tech user is the one who surfs the Web, reads and
 writes e-mail, and does the odd letter or maybe even a spreadsheet in
 some office tool, along with maybe some simple games.  My experience
 with this category of user is that when they stumble across something
 unfamiliar or want some additional function, they pick up the phone and
 call me.
 I recognise that description ;-D
 It's the Give a man a fish/Teach a man to fish scenario.
 
 Some people would rather visit the fishmonger, and it's their right to make 
 that decision.

Or, teach a man to fish and he'll waste the rest of his life sitting in a boat 
drinking beer?

-- 
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lesmikes...@gmail.com
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-25 Thread m . roth

 Anne Wilson wrote:
 On Thursday 24 September 2009 20:03:04 Curt Mills wrote:
 On Thu, 24 Sep 2009, Anne Wilson wrote:
 On Thursday 24 September 2009 17:50:37 Ron Loftin wrote:
 My image of the low-tech user is the one who surfs the Web, reads
 and
 writes e-mail, and does the odd letter or maybe even a spreadsheet in
 some office tool, along with maybe some simple games.  My experience
 with this category of user is that when they stumble across something
 unfamiliar or want some additional function, they pick up the phone
 and call me.
 I recognise that description ;-D
 It's the Give a man a fish/Teach a man to fish scenario.

 Some people would rather visit the fishmonger, and it's their right to
 make that decision.

 Or, teach a man to fish and he'll waste the rest of his life sitting in a
 boat drinking beer?

I was trying to avoid responding... sorry, but my instant reaction to
fishmonger was from the Asterix comics, Unhygienic the fishmonger

  mark

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-25 Thread Lanny Marcus

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Anne Wilson cannewil...@googlemail.com wrote:
 I'm thinking of giving CentOS to a non-tech user for her new desktop.  He
 needs are small.  She has been used to Mozilla for both mail and browsing, so

I believe if you install all the multimedia stuff that's described on
the CentOS Wiki and K3b, and the other things previous responses have
mentioned, OpenOffice.org, etc., she will be fine. The one thing I
suggest you teach her is where her files are and how to backup to a CD
or DVD. I ran into an issue with K3b (which otherwise works perfectly
for me), where it couldn't automatically erase a CD-RW (which I think
it claims it can do), so I need to su - and as root umount /dev/hdd
before it can erase a CD-RW.  Hopefully she won't need to do that, as
running as root is probably not something she should be doing.   I
have installed one package from the FC6 DVD (KDEEDU) on CentOS 5 (32
bit) to get KStars and that worked fine. But, as Phil pointed out,
maybe better to rebuild from the srpm.
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-25 Thread Anne Wilson

On Friday 25 September 2009 17:02:24 Lanny Marcus wrote:
 On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Anne Wilson cannewil...@googlemail.com 
wrote:
  I'm thinking of giving CentOS to a non-tech user for her new desktop.  He
  needs are small.  She has been used to Mozilla for both mail and
  browsing, so
 
 I believe if you install all the multimedia stuff that's described on
 the CentOS Wiki and K3b, and the other things previous responses have
 mentioned, OpenOffice.org, etc., she will be fine. The one thing I
 suggest you teach her is where her files are and how to backup to a CD
 or DVD. 

In the past, under windows, I set up a one-click link to run a pre-defined 
job.  Since I moved her to Mandriva I have shown her once how to copy files 
with k3b, and she wasn't unhappy about that.

 I ran into an issue with K3b (which otherwise works perfectly
 for me), where it couldn't automatically erase a CD-RW (which I think
 it claims it can do), so I need to su - and as root umount /dev/hdd
 before it can erase a CD-RW.  Hopefully she won't need to do that, as
 running as root is probably not something she should be doing.   

Not really a problem.  When we discussed RWs she said that CD-Rs are so cheap 
now that it's not worth the bother of using RWs.

 I
 have installed one package from the FC6 DVD (KDEEDU) on CentOS 5 (32
 bit) to get KStars and that worked fine. But, as Phil pointed out,
 maybe better to rebuild from the srpm.

Sounds encouraging, thanks.

Anne
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[CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

I'm thinking of giving CentOS to a non-tech user for her new desktop.  He 
needs are small.  She has been used to Mozilla for both mail and browsing, so 
equivalents there are not a problem.  She needs grip and lame, for her mp3s - 
again no problem.  In fact the only problem I can see is that gwenview doesn't 
appear to have the kipi-plugins.  I can see libkipi listed, but no plugins, 
and a pbone search didn't find it for me.  Perhaps it's available from a repo 
that I don't have?  This is the tool of choice for me, for photo-printing.

I think I've covered the areas that she's interested in.  Can anyone point out 
any other things I should consider?

Once I have the system set up as she needs I shall set up cron jobs to keep 
her up to date.

Anne
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

-Original Message-
From: centos-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-boun...@centos.org] On Behalf
Of Anne Wilson
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:11 AM
To: CentOS mailing list
Subject: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

I'm thinking of giving CentOS to a non-tech user for her new desktop.  He
needs are small.  She has been used to Mozilla for both mail and browsing, so
equivalents there are not a problem.  She needs grip and lame, for her mp3s -
again no problem.  In fact the only problem I can see is that gwenview 
doesn't
appear to have the kipi-plugins.  I can see libkipi listed, but no plugins,
and a pbone search didn't find it for me.  Perhaps it's available from a repo
that I don't have?  This is the tool of choice for me, for photo-printing.

I think I've covered the areas that she's interested in.  Can anyone point 
out
any other things I should consider?

OpenOffice?

The RPMforge and Epel repos are always good bets, at least they have been for 
me. Just make sure you use the yum-priorities plugin. You break it, you buy 
it - kind of. ;-)
-- 
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-24 Thread Niki Kovacs

Anne Wilson a écrit :
 I'm thinking of giving CentOS to a non-tech user for her new desktop.  

I'm running a small computer business in South France, installing 
desktops and servers for professionals like small companies. I have 
almost exclusively non-tech users, and CentOS + RPMForge + the odd 
self-built package suits the job perfectly. Though I do admit GNOME 
integration is way better than KDE (no flames intended).

http://www.microlinux.fr

Cheers,

Niki
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

On Thursday 24 September 2009 10:31:55 Sorin Srbu wrote:
 -Original Message-
 From: centos-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-boun...@centos.org] On
  Behalf Of Anne Wilson
 Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:11 AM
 To: CentOS mailing list
 Subject: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

 I'm thinking of giving CentOS to a non-tech user for her new desktop.  He
 needs are small.  She has been used to Mozilla for both mail and browsing,
  so equivalents there are not a problem.  She needs grip and lame, for her
  mp3s - again no problem.  In fact the only problem I can see is that
  gwenview doesn't
 appear to have the kipi-plugins.  I can see libkipi listed, but no
  plugins, and a pbone search didn't find it for me.  Perhaps it's
  available from a repo that I don't have?  This is the tool of choice for
  me, for photo-printing.

 I think I've covered the areas that she's interested in.  Can anyone point
 out
 any other things I should consider?

 OpenOffice?

Yes, of course.  Should have thought of that :-)  However, that's no problem.

 The RPMforge and Epel repos are always good bets, at least they have been
  for me. Just make sure you use the yum-priorities plugin. You break it,
  you buy it - kind of. ;-)

Yea, I know, I get to keep the pieces :-)  I have both of those on my server 
box, which is where I'm testing what's available for her, but kipi-plugins 
isn't found be yum list or yum search.  Strange when libkipi is there.

Anne
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

On Thursday 24 September 2009 10:55:15 Niki Kovacs wrote:
 Anne Wilson a écrit :
  I'm thinking of giving CentOS to a non-tech user for her new desktop.
 
 I'm running a small computer business in South France, installing
 desktops and servers for professionals like small companies. I have
 almost exclusively non-tech users, and CentOS + RPMForge + the odd
 self-built package suits the job perfectly. Though I do admit GNOME
 integration is way better than KDE (no flames intended).
 
 http://www.microlinux.fr
 
No offence taken, although I'm a KDEer myself.  I still can't quite believe 
that libkipi is available but not kipi-plugins.  hmm - yum can't find gnome-
photo-printer (or gpp) either.  I'll have to carry on searching.

Anne
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

-Original Message-
From: centos-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-boun...@centos.org] On
Behalf
Of Anne Wilson
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:27 PM
To: CentOS mailing list
Subject: Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Yea, I know, I get to keep the pieces :-)  I have both of those on my
server
box, which is where I'm testing what's available for her, but kipi-plugins
isn't found be yum list or yum search.  Strange when libkipi is there.

Have you checked eg pbone.net for some suitable rpm's? Assuming all
dependencies are met from before, you could install them manually.

I don't know much about Fedora any longer, I gave it up somewhere around at
FC5 or 6, but there might be some repo(s) for this one that you might use.
At least worth checking up I think.
-- 
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

On Thursday 24 September 2009 12:38:12 Sorin Srbu wrote:
 -Original Message-
 From: centos-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-boun...@centos.org] On

 Behalf

 Of Anne Wilson
 Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:27 PM
 To: CentOS mailing list
 Subject: Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

 Yea, I know, I get to keep the pieces :-)  I have both of those on my

 server

 box, which is where I'm testing what's available for her, but kipi-plugins
 isn't found be yum list or yum search.  Strange when libkipi is there.

 Have you checked eg pbone.net for some suitable rpm's? Assuming all
 dependencies are met from before, you could install them manually.

Yes, I checked pbone - but only for centos.

 I don't know much about Fedora any longer, I gave it up somewhere around at
 FC5 or 6, but there might be some repo(s) for this one that you might use.
 At least worth checking up I think.

I think if the worst comes to the worst it would be possible to install a FC6 
package.  Pbone says there is a package for FC6, and also offers an rpm from 
sourceforge.  That may be a possibility too.

Anne
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-24 Thread Phil Schaffner

Anne Wilson wrote on 09/24/2009 07:54 AM:
 On Thursday 24 September 2009 12:38:12 Sorin Srbu wrote:
...
 I think if the worst comes to the worst it would be possible to install a FC6 
 package.  Pbone says there is a package for FC6, and also offers an rpm from 
 sourceforge.  That may be a possibility too.

Anne,

If you are going for a binary RPM FC6 would be the best bet, but a 
better approach would be a rebuild from SRPM.  The 
kipi-plugins-0.1.3-5.fc7.src.rpm from FC7 updates builds on CentOS 5.3 
after satisfying dependencies from EPEL and ATrpms.  Had to disable 
RPMforge due to dependency issues to get it to work.

Phil
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

2009-09-24 Thread Timothy Murphy

Anne Wilson wrote:

 I'm thinking of giving CentOS to a non-tech user for her new desktop.  He
 needs are small.  She has been used to Mozilla for both mail and browsing,
 so
 equivalents there are not a problem.  She needs grip and lame, for her
 mp3s -
 again no problem.  In fact the only problem I can see is that gwenview
 doesn't
 appear to have the kipi-plugins.  I can see libkipi listed, but no
 plugins,
 and a pbone search didn't find it for me.

Why CentOS, as a matter of interest.
I'm a great fan of CentOS for servers,
but I would have thought Fedora would be more suitable
for the purpose you are talking about.

-- 
Timothy Murphy  
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

-Original Message-
From: centos-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-boun...@centos.org] On
Behalf
Of Anne Wilson
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:55 PM
To: CentOS mailing list
Subject: Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

 I don't know much about Fedora any longer, I gave it up somewhere around
at
 FC5 or 6, but there might be some repo(s) for this one that you might
use.
 At least worth checking up I think.

I think if the worst comes to the worst it would be possible to install a
FC6
package.  Pbone says there is a package for FC6, and also offers an rpm
from
sourceforge.  That may be a possibility too.

Just to be clear, my there might be some repo(s) for this one was meant as
Fedora generally speaking not, FC6 specifically. 8-)
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

-Original Message-
From: centos-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-boun...@centos.org] On
Behalf
Of Timothy Murphy
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 2:27 PM
To: centos@centos.org
Subject: Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

Why CentOS, as a matter of interest.
I'm a great fan of CentOS for servers,
but I would have thought Fedora would be more suitable
for the purpose you are talking about.

I'm guessing maintenance cycles. Anne?

My mother runs CentOS on her computer at home. My wife does it on a portable
she lugs around on meetings. Why shouldn't CentOS be suitable for home
users? CentOS's maintenance cycle alone got me all sweaty and hot the first
time I heard of it. ;-)
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user

On Thursday 24 September 2009 13:23:59 Phil Schaffner wrote:
 Anne Wilson wrote on 09/24/2009 07:54 AM:
  On Thursday 24 September 2009 12:38:12 Sorin Srbu wrote:
 
 ...
 
  I think if the worst comes to the worst it would be possible to install a
  FC6 package.  Pbone says there is a package for FC6, and also offers an
  rpm from sourceforge.  That may be a possibility too.
 
 Anne,
 
 If you are going for a binary RPM FC6 would be the best bet, but a
 better approach would be a rebuild from SRPM.  The
 kipi-plugins-0.1.3-5.fc7.src.rpm from FC7 updates builds on CentOS 5.3
 after satisfying dependencies from EPEL and ATrpms.  Had to disable
 RPMforge due to dependency issues to get it to work.
 
Thanks for that info.  I'll bear it in mind.

Anne
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS for non-tech user