Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-02 Thread Chris Adams 
Once upon a time, Frank Cox  said:
> On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 10:18:09 + (UTC)
> Tony Mountifield wrote:
> >  killing the UEFI stuff stops you ever being able to do a re-install on 
> > that box. Is that correct?
> 
> Apparently so.

Just to clarify: this appears to be a problem with some particular buggy
UEFI implementations; this is not a universal problem with the UEFI
design or anything.  It is unclear (just "some MSI boards") which
models/revisions/etc. have this particular problem.  There have been
other isolated UEFI implementation problems before (some Samsung laptops
for example, with a particular UEFI version and Linux kernel driver
version plus a samsung-laptop driver enabled).

This isn't meant to diminish the impact; certainly UEFI is proving to be
problematic in ways the BIOS wasn't (although the early days of "IBM
compatible BIOS" implementations also had weird issues from time to
time).

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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-02 Thread Tony Mountifield 
In article <75d47fdc6a99f24f87a6465baf326d5018c50...@columba02.user.uu.se>,
Sorin Srbu <sorin.s...@orgfarm.uu.se> wrote:
> > -Original Message-
> > From: centos-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-boun...@centos.org] On
> > Behalf Of m.r...@5-cent.us
> > Sent: den 1 februari 2016 20:34
> > To: CentOS
> > Subject: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System
> > 
> > As a public service announcement, recursively removing all of your files
> > from / is no longer recommended. 
> 
> I'm not following, has it ever been recommended (on a working system)??
> 
> Or is this one of those ironic posts? 8-)

I think the point is that hitherto, if you kill a system with "rm -rf /",
you can still do a re-installation from scratch. If I understand correctly
what people are saying, killing the UEFI stuff stops you ever being able
to do a re-install on that box. Is that correct? Is there no way to do a
factory reset of the BIOS?

Cheers
Tony
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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-02 Thread Frank Cox 
On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 10:18:09 + (UTC)
Tony Mountifield wrote:

>  killing the UEFI stuff stops you ever being able to do a re-install on that 
> box. Is that correct?

Apparently so.

> Is there no way to do a  factory reset of the BIOS?

Apparently not.

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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread Valeri Galtsev 

On Mon, February 1, 2016 1:33 pm, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:
> Excerpt:
> Running rm -rf / on any UEFI Linux distribution can potentially
> perma-brick your system.

Yes, I kind of like "rm -rf /". If my memory doesn't fail me, long ago it
was one of the tricky questions in sysadmin exam (not that anymore if I
read what you, Michael, write further correctly...). Anyway, let's imagine
we are back then, then what

rm -rf /

will do you your system? How dramatic this command is?

Well, it definitely will obliterate your /etc with all your settings. Then
it will start deleting /dev, and once it deletes the block device your
root filesystem "/" lives on, all trouble ends there. So, you just take
your drive, and you will be able to mount on different machine /home,
/usr, /var and what's left of your / partition. /etc is gone, bit this
only as dramatic as it gets (thanks for alphabetical order the command
follows).

Sorry about long spam message, everybody. I just so liked that tricky
question from my past, I couldn't hold myself.

Valeri

>
> As a public service announcement, recursively removing all of your files
> from / is no longer recommended. On UEFI distributions by default where
> EFI variables are accessible via /sys, this can now mean trashing your
> UEFI implementation.
>
> There is this systemd bug report requesting that UEFI variables be mounted
> as read-only by default. Lennart Poettering had initially responded and
> simply said, "Well, there are tools that actually want to write it. We
> also expose /dev/sda accessible for root, even though it can be used to
> hose your system. The ability to hose a system is certainly reason enought
> to make sure it's well protected and only writable to root. But beyond
> that: root can do anything really." He then closed the ticket.
> --- end excerpt ---
>
> 
>
> "And they closed the ticket"? That tuxedo on the cockroach is so elegent!
>
> Ok, *now* tell me why we shouldn't hate systemd?
>
>mark
>
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University of Chicago
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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread Frank Cox 
On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 13:44:48 -0600
Chris Adams wrote:

> Did someone think running "rm -rf /" is a good idea?

Quote from one of the people who commented on that article:

QUOTE:

You have this in a script: rm -rf "${DIRECTORY}"/

Now, you have a bug in the script and ${DIRECTORY} is not initialized. You then 
get rm -rf / executed. One should always ensure that DIRECTORY is not empty 
before running this. Or better, never end with /. If you have rm -rf 
"${DIRECTORY}", then only rm -rf gets executed, causing rm to fail since no 
file/directory is provided.
END OF QUOTE

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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread Richard Zimmerman 
>> Excerpt:
>> Running rm -rf / on any UEFI Linux distribution can potentially perma-brick 
>> your system.
>
> "And they closed the ticket"? That tuxedo on the cockroach is so elegent!
> Ok, *now* tell me why we shouldn't hate systemd?
>   mark

As much as I don't like systemd, it has NOTHING to do with system and 
everything to a poor admin or newbie blindly following others advice. 

My suggestion is to ALWAYS fully qualify *ANY* directory you want to rm -rf, 
period. 

I speak from experience. Years ago had a script that would cd into a directory 
and then rm - rf * it. Problem started when I accidently deleted said dir and 
the PREVIOUS dir was /. Needless to say, the server was happily committing 
suicide before I figured out the problem.

Lessons learned:
1. Fully qualify ANY rm -rf command
2. Make sure you always have good backups, I did!
3. I became really, really good at disaster recovery :)
4. Upper Management WILL get cranky over an event like this!

Just my 2 cents worth...

Richard


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(574) 233-1133
(574) 280-7284 Fax

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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread Gordon Messmer 

On 02/01/2016 11:54 AM, Frank Cox wrote:

You have this in a script: rm -rf "${DIRECTORY}"/
Now, you have a bug in the script and ${DIRECTORY} is not initialized.


On GNU systems, rm should not remove '/' recursively unless 
--no-preserve-root is specified.

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[CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread m . roth 
Excerpt:
Running rm -rf / on any UEFI Linux distribution can potentially
perma-brick your system.

As a public service announcement, recursively removing all of your files
from / is no longer recommended. On UEFI distributions by default where
EFI variables are accessible via /sys, this can now mean trashing your
UEFI implementation.

There is this systemd bug report requesting that UEFI variables be mounted
as read-only by default. Lennart Poettering had initially responded and
simply said, "Well, there are tools that actually want to write it. We
also expose /dev/sda accessible for root, even though it can be used to
hose your system. The ability to hose a system is certainly reason enought
to make sure it's well protected and only writable to root. But beyond
that: root can do anything really." He then closed the ticket.
--- end excerpt ---



"And they closed the ticket"? That tuxedo on the cockroach is so elegent!

Ok, *now* tell me why we shouldn't hate systemd?

   mark

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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread Chris Adams 
Once upon a time, m.r...@5-cent.us  said:
> Excerpt:
> Running rm -rf / on any UEFI Linux distribution can potentially
> perma-brick your system.

Did someone think running "rm -rf /" is a good idea?

> Ok, *now* tell me why we shouldn't hate systemd?

This has zero to do with systemd.  This is a by-product of how the
kernel driver and user-space tools for EFI are implemented.  The kernel
driver exposes EFI variables in a writable sysfs filesystem, and so
that's how the user-space tools set/update/delete the variables.  Trying
to force a change on that interaction from an intermediary is just
wrong.  If the maintainers for the EFI-related code think it should
change, they'll need to coordinate that change between the kernel and
user-space.

The bigger issue is that there is apparently some UEFI implementations
that can't handle certain variables being deleted or overwritten.  Yes,
that could happen from an errant rm, but there are other ways that could
happen.  Vendors that can't recover in some way (like BIOS CMOS
corruption can be recovered with a jumper) should be named-and-shamed as
well as potentially blacklisted in some way in the EFI driver.

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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread Valeri Galtsev 

On Mon, February 1, 2016 4:23 pm, Gordon Messmer wrote:
> On 02/01/2016 01:48 PM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
>> I just discovered that I couldn't even re-cite alphabet correctly today:
>> it is /bin that you loose, but /etc alphabetically goes after /dev, so
>> will not even loose your /etc,
>
> I'm pretty sure none of that is correct.  Once "rm" launches, all of the
> libraries and files that it needs are memory mapped and reference
> counted, so they're going to remain available while it removes the
> entire filesystem structure.

All true, except for: to actually write stuff permanently to hard drive
(that is modify whatever the content of hard drive is) the system needs to
access /dev/sda1 (I call from now /dev/sda1 device which "/" filesystem
lives on), and once /dev/sda1 is deleted there will be no further hard
drive write operations. There will be no way for system to access anything
under /, which will cause "rm" command to fail fataly. I will kickstart
install centos 7 in a moment and will do exactly this:

cd /

rm -rf /

(the first command is to avoid even "can not get CWD", which shouldn't
matter ;-)

So, I'll see in a moment how much I'll loose on the drive, and will it or
will it not be sufficient to rsync /boot from "twin" box, and restore /bin
symlink. Will get back with either "crap, indeed I was wrong", or "yes,
even on latest CentOS 7 system it is still so". Whatever the result is,
I'll enjoy this experiment. Thanks for giving me incentive to do it!

Incidentally, let me know if there is anything I should change in my
experiment for that to give us more definite answers that just "oh, look,
I still have /etc, /home, /usr... intact on hard drive". What specifically
should I do to learn that in a course of this command /sys was never
touched? Any ideas?

Valeri



Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread John R Pierce 
wait.   would deleting the inode /sys/(whatever)  actually modify UEFI 
memory?sure, writing to those inodes could do all sorts of harm, but 
deleting the inodes in the /sys filesystem, I'm not so sure this isn't a 
tempest in a teapot so to speak.






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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread Gordon Messmer 

On 02/01/2016 01:48 PM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:

I just discovered that I couldn't even re-cite alphabet correctly today:
it is /bin that you loose, but /etc alphabetically goes after /dev, so
will not even loose your /etc,


I'm pretty sure none of that is correct.  Once "rm" launches, all of the 
libraries and files that it needs are memory mapped and reference 
counted, so they're going to remain available while it removes the 
entire filesystem structure.


Spin up a VM and try it out.
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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread Gordon Messmer 

On 02/01/2016 01:59 PM, John R Pierce wrote:

would deleting the inode /sys/(whatever) actually modify UEFI memory?


Yes.  That is how the UEFI management interface works.
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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread Chris Adams 
Once upon a time, Valeri Galtsev  said:
> All true, except for: to actually write stuff permanently to hard drive
> (that is modify whatever the content of hard drive is) the system needs to
> access /dev/sda1 (I call from now /dev/sda1 device which "/" filesystem
> lives on), and once /dev/sda1 is deleted there will be no further hard
> drive write operations.

Incorrect.  Once the filesystem is mounted, the kernel access doesn't go
through the filesystem /dev node, similar to how once rm is running, it
doesn't need the /lib64/libc.so.6 node.

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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread Valeri Galtsev 

On Mon, February 1, 2016 4:24 pm, Gordon Messmer wrote:
> On 02/01/2016 01:59 PM, John R Pierce wrote:
>> would deleting the inode /sys/(whatever) actually modify UEFI memory?
>
> Yes.  That is how the UEFI management interface works.

Will doing

rm -rf /

actually delete anything in /sys? IMHO, not. The above command first will
get to removing /dev, and it will delete /dev/sda1 or whichever device /
filesystem lives on. And after that the command will fail, as there will
be nothing accessible under / on that system after device root filesystem
"/" lives on will be deleted. So, IMHO, that nasty command will never get
to /sys, so all related to UEFI vars controlled through /sys filesystem
will stay as they are. You will brick the box, but only in a sense you
will have to restore /boot on your hard drive and /bin which these days is
symlink (on CentOS 7), so actual content of /usr/bin where symlink points
will stay intact. And portion of /dev - whatever alphabetically is before
root filesystem device.

Valeri


Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread John R Pierce 

On 2/1/2016 2:07 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:

John R Pierce wrote:

>wait.   would deleting the inode/sys/(whatever)  actually modify UEFI
>memory?sure, writing to those inodes could do all sorts of harm, but
>deleting the inodes in the /sys filesystem, I'm not so sure this isn't a
>tempest in a teapot so to speak.

It's going to get /boot. And under there, it'll get /boot/EFI.


so it will delete inodes there...does that damage the EFI 
hardware?I would think you'd have to open files and write data to 
actually modify the EFI stuff.


my only C7 systems right now are VMs which don't have uefi, so I can't 
look and see what all this stuff actually is.



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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread m . roth 
John R Pierce wrote:
> On 2/1/2016 2:07 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:
>> John R Pierce wrote:
>>> >wait.   would deleting the inode/sys/(whatever)  actually modify UEFI
>>> >memory?sure, writing to those inodes could do all sorts of harm,
>>> but deleting the inodes in the /sys filesystem, I'm not so sure this
>>> isn't a >tempest in a teapot so to speak.

>> It's going to get /boot. And under there, it'll get /boot/EFI.
>
> so it will delete inodes there...does that damage the EFI
> hardware?I would think you'd have to open files and write data to
> actually modify the EFI stuff.
>
> my only C7 systems right now are VMs which don't have uefi, so I can't
> look and see what all this stuff actually is.

Yeah, I don't think we really know, until someone's willing to brick a
many-thousand-dollar server

 mark

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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread Gordon Messmer 

On 02/01/2016 02:46 PM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:

Will doing

rm -rf /

actually delete anything in /sys? IMHO, not.


Yes, it will.  Probably.  It's possible that it'll hang on some of the 
files in /proc if it gets to that directory before /sys, but that's 
largely a matter of chance.



  The above command first will
get to removing /dev, and it will delete /dev/sda1 or whichever device /
filesystem lives on. And after that the command will fail, as there will
be nothing accessible under / on that system after device root filesystem
"/" lives on will be deleted.


Access to your filesystems doesn't depend on the device nodes after 
they're mounted.  You can remove all of the nodes in /dev, and your 
filesystems remain available.  Spin up a VM and test it.  I promise, it 
works.



And portion of /dev - whatever alphabetically is before
root filesystem device.


rm doesn't process files in alphabetical order.  It processes them in 
directory order, which is unpredictable.

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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread m . roth 
John R Pierce wrote:
> wait.   would deleting the inode /sys/(whatever)  actually modify UEFI
> memory?sure, writing to those inodes could do all sorts of harm, but
> deleting the inodes in the /sys filesystem, I'm not so sure this isn't a
> tempest in a teapot so to speak.

It's going to get /boot. And under there, it'll get /boot/EFI.

  mark

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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread Alice Wonder 

On 02/01/2016 11:54 AM, Frank Cox wrote:

On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 13:44:48 -0600
Chris Adams wrote:


Did someone think running "rm -rf /" is a good idea?


Quote from one of the people who commented on that article:

QUOTE:

You have this in a script: rm -rf "${DIRECTORY}"/

Now, you have a bug in the script and ${DIRECTORY} is not initialized. You then get rm 
-rf / executed. One should always ensure that DIRECTORY is not empty before running this. 
Or better, never end with /. If you have rm -rf "${DIRECTORY}", then only rm 
-rf gets executed, causing rm to fail since no file/directory is provided.
END OF QUOTE



Yeah, that can happen, but I remember being taught that was an extremely 
bad scripting practice back in 1998 when I took my first Linux class.

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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread Valeri Galtsev 

On Mon, February 1, 2016 1:56 pm, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
>
> On Mon, February 1, 2016 1:33 pm, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:
>> Excerpt:
>> Running rm -rf / on any UEFI Linux distribution can potentially
>> perma-brick your system.
>
> Yes, I kind of like "rm -rf /". If my memory doesn't fail me, long ago it
> was one of the tricky questions in sysadmin exam (not that anymore if I
> read what you, Michael, write further correctly...). Anyway, let's imagine
> we are back then, then what
>
> rm -rf /
>
> will do you your system? How dramatic this command is?
>
> Well, it definitely will obliterate your /etc with all your settings. Then
> it will start deleting /dev, and once it deletes the block device your
> root filesystem "/" lives on, all trouble ends there. So, you just take
> your drive, and you will be able to mount on different machine /home,
> /usr, /var and what's left of your / partition. /etc is gone, bit this
> only as dramatic as it gets (thanks for alphabetical order the command
> follows).

I just discovered that I couldn't even re-cite alphabet correctly today:
it is /bin that you loose, but /etc alphabetically goes after /dev, so
will not even loose your /etc, all you will need it to restore portion of
your /dev and the whole /bib (which you can do easily if you have "twin"
system around...)

>
> Sorry about long spam message, everybody. I just so liked that tricky
> question from my past, I couldn't hold myself.
>
> Valeri
>
>>
>> As a public service announcement, recursively removing all of your files
>> from / is no longer recommended. On UEFI distributions by default where
>> EFI variables are accessible via /sys, this can now mean trashing your
>> UEFI implementation.
>>
>> There is this systemd bug report requesting that UEFI variables be
>> mounted
>> as read-only by default. Lennart Poettering had initially responded and
>> simply said, "Well, there are tools that actually want to write it. We
>> also expose /dev/sda accessible for root, even though it can be used to
>> hose your system. The ability to hose a system is certainly reason
>> enought
>> to make sure it's well protected and only writable to root. But beyond
>> that: root can do anything really." He then closed the ticket.
>> --- end excerpt ---
>>
>> 
>>
>> "And they closed the ticket"? That tuxedo on the cockroach is so
>> elegent!
>>
>> Ok, *now* tell me why we shouldn't hate systemd?
>>
>>mark
>>
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>
>
> 
> Valeri Galtsev
> Sr System Administrator
> Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
> Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
> University of Chicago
> Phone: 773-702-4247
> 
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Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread Gordon Messmer 

On 02/01/2016 02:07 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:

It's going to get /boot. And under there, it'll get /boot/EFI.


Yes, but that's not the problem.  /sys/firmware/efi/efivars is.
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Re: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System

2016-02-01 Thread Sorin Srbu 
> -Original Message-
> From: centos-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-boun...@centos.org] On
> Behalf Of m.r...@5-cent.us
> Sent: den 1 februari 2016 20:34
> To: CentOS
> Subject: [CentOS] In A UEFI World, "rm -rf /" Can Brick Your System
> 
> As a public service announcement, recursively removing all of your files
> from / is no longer recommended. 

I'm not following, has it ever been recommended (on a working system)??

Or is this one of those ironic posts? 8-)

-- 
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