Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 12:11 PM Lamar Owen wrote: > > For example, I was messing with kubernetes in a few ways. redhat > > provides a license for RHEL, that you can use for that purpose for > > free, BUT you can have only have one license. > Yes, which makes it a bit difficult to mess around with kubernetes. That > particular case would be covered resonably well by CentOS Stream, > though, since the major part of kubernetes' behavior isn't going to > change radically within a point release cycle. > UBI should be used with k8s, not a full OS install. It has a fully free to use license. https://developers.redhat.com/products/rhel/ubi ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On 12/16/20 7:13 PM, Lamar Owen wrote: > On 12/16/20 12:55 PM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: >> Off-topic: >> >> On 12/16/20 4:11 PM, Lamar Owen wrote: >>> 2.) The enthusiasts who were building their own machines from parts. >>> That group is small, but they also tend to be very vocal; IT >>> professionals often fall into this group, and MS wanted to keep them >>> happy for all the reasons previously posted. >> In less developed countries PC's are sold without any software, even >> laptops. ... >> Since it is illegal to install pirated software, PC resellers are not >> allowed to preinstall pirated software, but no one can prevent them to >> sell it without any OS/software on it, so 70-80% of PC's sold in Serbia >> are sold without it. Similar is in many countries outside of "Western >> countries". > It is certainly different in different countries; I can only speak for > what I see in my own area. I don't see a lot of new PCs sold without > some license of some kind; Dell Precision workstations and PowerEdge > servers are available with Linux preinstalled, and PowerEdge servers can > be purchased without any OS. Most PC manufacturers here have deals with > Microsoft to prevent them selling PCs without OS. That is because MS had deal with Intel that every x86 chip already had bundled "MS DOS" and large companies that sell PC's formed in 1980-1990's. Before ~1990 only way to buy PC in Yugoslavia/Serbia was "smuggle" it (individual could legally bring parts into the country up to certain amount of money, so several people had to travel and bring in separate parts, share/pool the money limit) from Austria and Germany. Software would be bought Austria/Germany but then cloned for free since there was no one to enforce laws from USA. After brake up of Yugoslavia, sanctions were introduced that prevented legal import so PC clones were imports from Asia and profit-driven software pirates rose up, charging only small amount of fee for cloning/copying service rendered. So everyone learned that pirated software is "safe" and after few decades of very low incomes and cheep hardware, all large PC shops grew from small "assemble parts and install pirated software"businesses and good luck in teaching population software has to be paid for when it is 40%+ of price of hardware. Only way to not use pirated software and not be considered a moron for wasting hard earned money is FOSS, free Linux, then you are *forced* to use Libre Office, Gimp, Inkscape. Then you are considered only a weirdo, eccentric... It does not help that any banking software is Windows only and any document that comes from govt is made in MS Office and always have some small but important compatibility issues. That is why I bought laptop with bundled Windows and dualbooted CentOS, so I can legally run Windows VM for banking software... :-( -- Ljubomir Ljubojevic (Love is in the Air) PL Computers Serbia, Europe StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On 12/16/20 11:24 AM, John Plemons wrote: I have a DEC Alpha sitting in my warehouse collecting dust what a great machine it was.. Was sorry to see Linux Support die for it.. I used to work at a university, where one of my colleagues has (I think he still has it) a pdp11/10 You know, paper tape, an actual TTY (also paper). Every so much time he needs to replace capacitors, and sees if he can fire it up, and shows students how to program it.(no Linux for it I think, haha) john On 12/16/2020 1:18 PM, R C wrote: On 12/16/20 11:10 AM, Lamar Owen wrote: On 12/16/20 11:24 AM, R C wrote: On 12/16/20 8:11 AM, Lamar Owen wrote: But the Red Hat-based ecosystem version of that second group is on-topic, as the same sort of enthusiast exists here and has been very vocal about this change. Well yes it is, but it started with a remark about licensing. I don't use Windows much, not even a handful of times in the last decade. Thing is that MS has something called their "Developers Network" (named something along those lines). If you're in higher education, R etc you can be in that network, in sortof an R category, for 'free'. ... I have a whole shelf full of MSDN CDs and binders; it wasn't free, but it wasn't terribly expensive either. In some cases the activations/keys for the software expire after a few months. Still have the last Windows 2000 Beta CD for the DEC Alpha architecture DEC remember that.. the other day I ran into a windows 95 box, I might even have an old drive with windows for work groups *lol* here in that set. Something similar for RHEL beyond the single-entitlement developer subscription would be cool. But all kidding aside; It would be cool to have an MSDN equivalent for RH for those that do a lot with RH, and that "take their work home and vice versa". That is what I use(d) Centos for, at home that is For example, I was messing with kubernetes in a few ways. redhat provides a license for RHEL, that you can use for that purpose for free, BUT you can have only have one license. Yes, which makes it a bit difficult to mess around with kubernetes. That particular case would be covered resonably well by CentOS Stream, though, since the major part of kubernetes' behavior isn't going to change radically within a point release cycle. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
I have a DEC Alpha sitting in my warehouse collecting dust what a great machine it was.. Was sorry to see Linux Support die for it.. john On 12/16/2020 1:18 PM, R C wrote: On 12/16/20 11:10 AM, Lamar Owen wrote: On 12/16/20 11:24 AM, R C wrote: On 12/16/20 8:11 AM, Lamar Owen wrote: But the Red Hat-based ecosystem version of that second group is on-topic, as the same sort of enthusiast exists here and has been very vocal about this change. Well yes it is, but it started with a remark about licensing. I don't use Windows much, not even a handful of times in the last decade. Thing is that MS has something called their "Developers Network" (named something along those lines). If you're in higher education, R etc you can be in that network, in sortof an R category, for 'free'. ... I have a whole shelf full of MSDN CDs and binders; it wasn't free, but it wasn't terribly expensive either. In some cases the activations/keys for the software expire after a few months. Still have the last Windows 2000 Beta CD for the DEC Alpha architecture DEC remember that.. the other day I ran into a windows 95 box, I might even have an old drive with windows for work groups *lol* here in that set. Something similar for RHEL beyond the single-entitlement developer subscription would be cool. But all kidding aside; It would be cool to have an MSDN equivalent for RH for those that do a lot with RH, and that "take their work home and vice versa". That is what I use(d) Centos for, at home that is For example, I was messing with kubernetes in a few ways. redhat provides a license for RHEL, that you can use for that purpose for free, BUT you can have only have one license. Yes, which makes it a bit difficult to mess around with kubernetes. That particular case would be covered resonably well by CentOS Stream, though, since the major part of kubernetes' behavior isn't going to change radically within a point release cycle. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On 12/16/20 11:10 AM, Lamar Owen wrote: On 12/16/20 11:24 AM, R C wrote: On 12/16/20 8:11 AM, Lamar Owen wrote: But the Red Hat-based ecosystem version of that second group is on-topic, as the same sort of enthusiast exists here and has been very vocal about this change. Well yes it is, but it started with a remark about licensing. I don't use Windows much, not even a handful of times in the last decade. Thing is that MS has something called their "Developers Network" (named something along those lines). If you're in higher education, R etc you can be in that network, in sortof an R category, for 'free'. ... I have a whole shelf full of MSDN CDs and binders; it wasn't free, but it wasn't terribly expensive either. In some cases the activations/keys for the software expire after a few months. Still have the last Windows 2000 Beta CD for the DEC Alpha architecture DEC remember that.. the other day I ran into a windows 95 box, I might even have an old drive with windows for work groups *lol* here in that set. Something similar for RHEL beyond the single-entitlement developer subscription would be cool. But all kidding aside; It would be cool to have an MSDN equivalent for RH for those that do a lot with RH, and that "take their work home and vice versa". That is what I use(d) Centos for, at home that is For example, I was messing with kubernetes in a few ways. redhat provides a license for RHEL, that you can use for that purpose for free, BUT you can have only have one license. Yes, which makes it a bit difficult to mess around with kubernetes. That particular case would be covered resonably well by CentOS Stream, though, since the major part of kubernetes' behavior isn't going to change radically within a point release cycle. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On 12/16/20 12:55 PM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Off-topic: On 12/16/20 4:11 PM, Lamar Owen wrote: 2.) The enthusiasts who were building their own machines from parts. That group is small, but they also tend to be very vocal; IT professionals often fall into this group, and MS wanted to keep them happy for all the reasons previously posted. In less developed countries PC's are sold without any software, even laptops. ... Since it is illegal to install pirated software, PC resellers are not allowed to preinstall pirated software, but no one can prevent them to sell it without any OS/software on it, so 70-80% of PC's sold in Serbia are sold without it. Similar is in many countries outside of "Western countries". It is certainly different in different countries; I can only speak for what I see in my own area. I don't see a lot of new PCs sold without some license of some kind; Dell Precision workstations and PowerEdge servers are available with Linux preinstalled, and PowerEdge servers can be purchased without any OS. Most PC manufacturers here have deals with Microsoft to prevent them selling PCs without OS. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On 12/16/20 11:24 AM, R C wrote: On 12/16/20 8:11 AM, Lamar Owen wrote: But the Red Hat-based ecosystem version of that second group is on-topic, as the same sort of enthusiast exists here and has been very vocal about this change. Well yes it is, but it started with a remark about licensing. I don't use Windows much, not even a handful of times in the last decade. Thing is that MS has something called their "Developers Network" (named something along those lines). If you're in higher education, R etc you can be in that network, in sortof an R category, for 'free'. ... I have a whole shelf full of MSDN CDs and binders; it wasn't free, but it wasn't terribly expensive either. In some cases the activations/keys for the software expire after a few months. Still have the last Windows 2000 Beta CD for the DEC Alpha architecture here in that set. Something similar for RHEL beyond the single-entitlement developer subscription would be cool. For example, I was messing with kubernetes in a few ways. redhat provides a license for RHEL, that you can use for that purpose for free, BUT you can have only have one license. Yes, which makes it a bit difficult to mess around with kubernetes. That particular case would be covered resonably well by CentOS Stream, though, since the major part of kubernetes' behavior isn't going to change radically within a point release cycle. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
Off-topic: On 12/16/20 4:11 PM, Lamar Owen wrote: > 2.) The enthusiasts who were building their own machines from parts. > That group is small, but they also tend to be very vocal; IT > professionals often fall into this group, and MS wanted to keep them > happy for all the reasons previously posted. In less developed countries PC's are sold without any software, even laptops. In Serbia where I live 70+% of Windows and paid-for software are illegal/pirated versions. If you want to live from servicing PC's you HAVE to install pirated software. I am focused on supporting businesses and govt made a deal long time ago with BSA for Serbian "IRS" to check software licenses. It was done in a way that "IRS" is demanding proof from businesses that they *paid taxes* on software that is not free of charge. So if you have use software with licences you need to pay for, show us you paid taxes on that software (20%). Even then some small businesses refuse to pay for OS/software, calculating "IRS" has no time to check them. If you buy laptop, you can use magic to write it off the books so "IRS" has no legal right to check it for software (they do not touch private citizens for a reason). Since it is illegal to install pirated software, PC resellers are not allowed to preinstall pirated software, but no one can prevent them to sell it without any OS/software on it, so 70-80% of PC's sold in Serbia are sold without it. Similar is in many countries outside of "Western countries". -- Ljubomir Ljubojevic (Love is in the Air) PL Computers Serbia, Europe StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On 12/16/20 8:11 AM, Lamar Owen wrote: On 12/15/20 1:24 PM, R C wrote: What I meant was that MS basically, for the longest while, had their OS pre-installed on computers sold, so it "felt" free to the buyer, it came with the machine. Universities and colleges did receive bulk licenses and .NET pretty much for free in their 'Developer Programs' and also have students keep using it. That "faillure to implement" obviously was a marketing move indeed, as was students "allowing" to keep using it on their laptops after graduation. This is way off-topic, but there are two aspects of home users using unlicensed copies of Windows: 1.) Users who bought a machine with Windows Home Edition on it who wanted either Professional or Ultimate; 2.) The enthusiasts who were building their own machines from parts. That group is small, but they also tend to be very vocal; IT professionals often fall into this group, and MS wanted to keep them happy for all the reasons previously posted. But the Red Hat-based ecosystem version of that second group is on-topic, as the same sort of enthusiast exists here and has been very vocal about this change. Well yes it is, but it started with a remark about licensing. I don't use Windows much, not even a handful of times in the last decade. Thing is that MS has something called their "Developers Network" (named something along those lines). If you're in higher education, R etc you can be in that network, in sortof an R category, for 'free'. As a member you get access to "development versions" of pretty much anything MS, and they will give you product codes, even "bulk licenses", to be used for R, and even for educational purposes. You can do whatever you want with it, except of course use it for commercial/production purposes. I never found a mechanism like that for redhat, that is why I use Centos. It is pretty much the same thing. I have numerous netboot images around, a dozen and a half or so hardrives with Centos installed (in trays), so it is easy to just boot a machine for projects, testbeds etc, and without having to pay for a bunch of licenses while you only use a handful of installs at a time. For example, I was messing with kubernetes in a few ways. redhat provides a license for RHEL, that you can use for that purpose for free, BUT you can have only have one license. Of course there is the group of people like you mention, (I probably fall in that category by swapping hardware all the time, testbeds, R clusters etc) I don't know how well that will be working with RHEL, if Centos and Redhat start 'diverting' ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On 12/15/20 1:24 PM, R C wrote: What I meant was that MS basically, for the longest while, had their OS pre-installed on computers sold, so it "felt" free to the buyer, it came with the machine. Universities and colleges did receive bulk licenses and .NET pretty much for free in their 'Developer Programs' and also have students keep using it. That "faillure to implement" obviously was a marketing move indeed, as was students "allowing" to keep using it on their laptops after graduation. This is way off-topic, but there are two aspects of home users using unlicensed copies of Windows: 1.) Users who bought a machine with Windows Home Edition on it who wanted either Professional or Ultimate; 2.) The enthusiasts who were building their own machines from parts. That group is small, but they also tend to be very vocal; IT professionals often fall into this group, and MS wanted to keep them happy for all the reasons previously posted. But the Red Hat-based ecosystem version of that second group is on-topic, as the same sort of enthusiast exists here and has been very vocal about this change. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
Am 15.12.20 um 19:35 schrieb Matthew Miller: On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 06:21:17PM +, Phil Perry wrote: thanks to bring this up - this is a big issue. How could we communicate this? Bugzilla? Anyone listing here? Here you go: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1908047 At the moment the only way we have to feed back issues is to file bugs against Stream (which is actually under RHEL8 on bugzilla) as it is not currently possible to submit fixes. Thanks for filing that. I notice that Josh moved it to the "distribution" component rather than DNF -- that makes sense because it's not really an issue with the DNF package itself. The CentOS team tells me that this is a good place to file anything similar that comes up. Thanks. Good to known ... -- Leon ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On 15/12/2020 18:35, Matthew Miller wrote: On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 06:21:17PM +, Phil Perry wrote: thanks to bring this up - this is a big issue. How could we communicate this? Bugzilla? Anyone listing here? Here you go: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1908047 At the moment the only way we have to feed back issues is to file bugs against Stream (which is actually under RHEL8 on bugzilla) as it is not currently possible to submit fixes. Thanks for filing that. I notice that Josh moved it to the "distribution" component rather than DNF -- that makes sense because it's not really an issue with the DNF package itself. Absolutely. Pretty simple to fix so lets see what happens :-) The CentOS team tells me that this is a good place to file anything similar that comes up. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 06:21:17PM +, Phil Perry wrote: > >thanks to bring this up - this is a big issue. How could we > >communicate this? Bugzilla? Anyone listing here? > > Here you go: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1908047 > > At the moment the only way we have to feed back issues is to file > bugs against Stream (which is actually under RHEL8 on bugzilla) as > it is not currently possible to submit fixes. Thanks for filing that. I notice that Josh moved it to the "distribution" component rather than DNF -- that makes sense because it's not really an issue with the DNF package itself. The CentOS team tells me that this is a good place to file anything similar that comes up. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On 12/15/20 11:15 AM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: On 12/15/20 5:58 PM, R C wrote: When was the last time a large company (think IBM, Sun, Novell Netware, Oracle) had a great idea to create or take over an OS, or a community only ending up in a situation that only almost killed them. (Yeah MS, but they figured out that giving it away for next to nothing for residential/educational use is actually securing their market share in commercial/government/Education etc etc etc.) 10-15 years ago BSA sued a person using pirated Windows (and Office?) at home. Microsoft representative was a witness AGAINST BSA, so that there is no precedent that private users of pirated software can be sued, because out of fear majority of those using pirated software would stop installing and using MS software and they would recommend software of competition (free if possible). If MS did not "fail to implement" effective protection from pirating Windows and Office, their market share would be at least halved, and in countries with low income they would barely exist. What I meant was that MS basically, for the longest while, had their OS pre-installed on computers sold, so it "felt" free to the buyer, it came with the machine. Universities and colleges did receive bulk licenses and .NET pretty much for free in their 'Developer Programs' and also have students keep using it. That "faillure to implement" obviously was a marketing move indeed, as was students "allowing" to keep using it on their laptops after graduation. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On 15/12/2020 17:51, Leon Fauster via CentOS wrote: Am 15.12.20 um 18:07 schrieb Phil Perry: 3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each package in Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll back broken packages. thanks to bring this up - this is a big issue. How could we communicate this? Bugzilla? Anyone listing here? Here you go: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1908047 At the moment the only way we have to feed back issues is to file bugs against Stream (which is actually under RHEL8 on bugzilla) as it is not currently possible to submit fixes. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On 12/15/20 5:58 PM, R C wrote: > When was the last time a large company (think IBM, Sun, Novell Netware, > Oracle) had a great idea to create or take over an OS, or a community > only ending up in a situation that only almost killed them. (Yeah MS, > but they figured out that giving it away for next to nothing for > residential/educational use is actually securing their market share in > commercial/government/Education etc etc etc.) 10-15 years ago BSA sued a person using pirated Windows (and Office?) at home. Microsoft representative was a witness AGAINST BSA, so that there is no precedent that private users of pirated software can be sued, because out of fear majority of those using pirated software would stop installing and using MS software and they would recommend software of competition (free if possible). If MS did not "fail to implement" effective protection from pirating Windows and Office, their market share would be at least halved, and in countries with low income they would barely exist. -- Ljubomir Ljubojevic (Love is in the Air) PL Computers Serbia, Europe StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
Am 15.12.20 um 18:07 schrieb Phil Perry: 3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each package in Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll back broken packages. thanks to bring this up - this is a big issue. How could we communicate this? Bugzilla? Anyone listing here? -- Leon ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
Am 15.12.20 um 18:22 schrieb Phil Perry: On 15/12/2020 17:13, Matthew Miller wrote: On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 05:09:39PM +, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote: 3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each package in Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll back broken packages. Really? I hadn't appreciated that. How does one the contribute back to RH/the community by checking at what point something broke? I don't know the answer here but it's a good point to raise. In Fedora, we don't keep all updates on our mirrors either, but we _do_ make them accessible forever from our build system (https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/), and there's a command-line tool for easily pulling the packages from a build. No disrespect Matthew, but this isn't fedora. On Enterprise Linux systems users expect long-established tools like 'yum/dnf downgrade' to just work, and when they don't, that's something that needs fixing. Users should not be expected to go rooting around on build systems trying to find old copies of packages to fix things that shouldn't have broken in the first place. not to mention that such packages are not signed. -- Leon ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On 15/12/2020 17:13, Matthew Miller wrote: On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 05:09:39PM +, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote: 3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each package in Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll back broken packages. Really? I hadn't appreciated that. How does one the contribute back to RH/the community by checking at what point something broke? I don't know the answer here but it's a good point to raise. In Fedora, we don't keep all updates on our mirrors either, but we _do_ make them accessible forever from our build system (https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/), and there's a command-line tool for easily pulling the packages from a build. No disrespect Matthew, but this isn't fedora. On Enterprise Linux systems users expect long-established tools like 'yum/dnf downgrade' to just work, and when they don't, that's something that needs fixing. Users should not be expected to go rooting around on build systems trying to find old copies of packages to fix things that shouldn't have broken in the first place. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On 15/12/2020 17:09, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote: On Dec 15, 2020, at 12:07 PM, Phil Perry wrote: 3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each package in Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll back broken packages. Really? I hadn't appreciated that. How does one the contribute back to RH/the community by checking at what point something broke? No idea. I assume it might be related to repository size, as once daily updates start flowing into Stream, repo size could get rather large rather quickly? But it doesn't sit well being asked to test (and feedback) on testing packages with no way to roll back / downgrade when things break. 'dnf downgrade' isn't something I (thankfully) have to use often, but when you need it, it's a lifesaver. Seems like a regression to me. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
> On Dec 15, 2020, at 12:13 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 05:09:39PM +, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) > Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote: >>> 3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each package >>> in Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll back broken >>> packages. >> Really? I hadn't appreciated that. How does one the contribute back to >> RH/the community by checking at what point something broke? > > I don't know the answer here but it's a good point to raise. In Fedora, we > don't keep all updates on our mirrors either, but we _do_ make them > accessible forever from our build system > (https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/), and there's a command-line tool for > easily pulling the packages from a build. It also makes my idea of reproducing RHEL point releases by just applying a selected subset much harder. You have to regularly download everything, and create a local comprehensive repo. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 05:09:39PM +, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote: > > 3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each package > > in Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll back broken > > packages. > Really? I hadn't appreciated that. How does one the contribute back to > RH/the community by checking at what point something broke? I don't know the answer here but it's a good point to raise. In Fedora, we don't keep all updates on our mirrors either, but we _do_ make them accessible forever from our build system (https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/), and there's a command-line tool for easily pulling the packages from a build. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 11:29:51PM +0800, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming wrote: > Good day from Singapore, > What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream? CentOS Linux rebuilds packages after they are available from Red Hat as errata or as minor release updates. CentOS Stream will have updates approved for future RHEL minor releases shipped as soon as they meet the criteria. > At the moment, I only know that CentOS 8 support will end on 31 December > 2021 while Red Hat Inc will shift its focus to CentOS Stream. Yes. > Is CentOS Stream going to be very similar to Fedora Linux, shipping with > the latest Linux Kernel like 5.10.1? No. It is going to be very similar to Red Hat Enterprise Linux, shipping with kernel builds approved to ship in RHEL. If you want a faster-moving kernel, Fedora CoreOS or Fedora Server might be a good choice for you. > I am looking forward to hearing from you. Also see more at * https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/centos-stream-is-continuous-delivery/ * https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/how-rhel-is-made/ -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
> On Dec 15, 2020, at 12:07 PM, Phil Perry wrote: > > 3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each package > in Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll back broken packages. Really? I hadn't appreciated that. How does one the contribute back to RH/the community by checking at what point something broke? ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On 15/12/2020 15:29, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming wrote: Good day from Singapore, What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream? At the moment, I only know that CentOS 8 support will end on 31 December 2021 while Red Hat Inc will shift its focus to CentOS Stream. Is CentOS Stream going to be very similar to Fedora Linux, shipping with the latest Linux Kernel like 5.10.1? No. Stream kernel updates will be updates on the (current) path from RHEL8.3 -> RHEL8.4 so the base kernel will always be 4.18.0 (for Stream tracking RHEL8) I am looking forward to hearing from you. Thank you. Some notable differences: 1. 5 Years support versus 10 years support on RHEL/CentOS Linux. 2. Kernel updates break 3rd party out-of-tree kernel drivers. 3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each package in Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll back broken packages. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
On 12/15/20 9:20 AM, Kevin K wrote: As a bystander who just the other day saw this, no. It doesn't appear that it will be a bleeding edge kernel. Just builds of the next kernel expected to be in the next 8.X release. So you are getting updated features earlier, but maybe before all the known issues are resolved to a state ready to be released in the main RH build. For my work use of Red Hat, this all doesn't matter. We license and pay for many copies of RHEL. It is only for home use that I've historically used CentOS. And even then I can get a personal license of RHEL. I totally agree with that. I think that most of RedHat's success is because of 'open' Linux in general, and especially Centos in the last decade or however long it has been around. What large companies don't seem to understand (except for a few) is that what is used in the workplace is what people that run that stuff know, and most of those are people that started with that as HS kids, or they have a degree in something unrelated, often an "online/make up degree. That might sound mean/bad, but that is the work force you have, that is what they use, so that is what companies/organizations/institutions will use, always been like that, will be like that for the foreseeable future. Most of what runs companies/institutions "IT stuff" have a few machines at home, I know enough sysadmins that have the previous model Dell servers, or the model before that, some EOL Cisco equipment, that is what they know very well to use, so that is what companies will be using too, including their choice of OS and software. RHEL and Centos disappearing migh be a problem in the short term, a year or 2/3/4, but hey, it only takes one hardware life cycle before a new badge of HS kids and college drop outs figured out what to use next (for free). When was the last time a large company (think IBM, Sun, Novell Netware, Oracle) had a great idea to create or take over an OS, or a community only ending up in a situation that only almost killed them. (Yeah MS, but they figured out that giving it away for next to nothing for residential/educational use is actually securing their market share in commercial/government/Education etc etc etc.) The only times something became really popular, and useful for "the industry" is when it is was for free for personal use (or was included with the hardware, there are/were countless examples), because that is what the people working in it, programmers, sysadmins etc., do, use the free stuff .. take it to work, get promotions and a raises for their good ideas. In fact, that is how Linux/Redhat became a success to begin with. Personal licenses, sure, but what IT guy is going to get 4-5 $500 a pop a year licenses just because it is the same as at work? (And... what about all the online forums etc? that are free to use) Redhat might think about giving "those" away for free.. BUT most large companies, and for sure government, does not allow their employees to accept 'gifts' for more then a few ($10-15) a year. So that won't fly either. my 2 cts, Ron On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 9:29 AM Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming < teoenming.dec2...@gmail.com> wrote: Good day from Singapore, What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream? At the moment, I only know that CentOS 8 support will end on 31 December 2021 while Red Hat Inc will shift its focus to CentOS Stream. Is CentOS Stream going to be very similar to Fedora Linux, shipping with the latest Linux Kernel like 5.10.1? I am looking forward to hearing from you. Thank you. -BEGIN EMAIL SIGNATURE- The Gospel for all Targeted Individuals (TIs): [The New York Times] Microwave Weapons Are Prime Suspect in Ills of U.S. Embassy Workers Link: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/01/science/sonic-attack-cuba-microwave.html Singaporean Targeted Individual Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming's Academic Qualifications as at 14 Feb 2019 and refugee seeking attempts at the United Nations Refugee Agency Bangkok (21 Mar 2017), in Taiwan (5 Aug 2019) and Australia (25 Dec 2019 to 9 Jan 2020): [1] https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com/ [2] https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.sg/ [3] https://www.scribd.com/user/270125049/Teo-En-Ming -END EMAIL SIGNATURE- ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
As a bystander who just the other day saw this, no. It doesn't appear that it will be a bleeding edge kernel. Just builds of the next kernel expected to be in the next 8.X release. So you are getting updated features earlier, but maybe before all the known issues are resolved to a state ready to be released in the main RH build. For my work use of Red Hat, this all doesn't matter. We license and pay for many copies of RHEL. It is only for home use that I've historically used CentOS. And even then I can get a personal license of RHEL. On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 9:29 AM Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming < teoenming.dec2...@gmail.com> wrote: > Good day from Singapore, > > What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream? > > At the moment, I only know that CentOS 8 support will end on 31 December > 2021 while Red Hat Inc will shift its focus to CentOS Stream. > > Is CentOS Stream going to be very similar to Fedora Linux, shipping with > the latest Linux Kernel like 5.10.1? > > I am looking forward to hearing from you. > > Thank you. > > > -BEGIN EMAIL SIGNATURE- > > The Gospel for all Targeted Individuals (TIs): > > [The New York Times] Microwave Weapons Are Prime Suspect in Ills of > U.S. Embassy Workers > > Link: > https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/01/science/sonic-attack-cuba-microwave.html > > > > > Singaporean Targeted Individual Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming's > Academic > Qualifications as at 14 Feb 2019 and refugee seeking attempts at the > United Nations Refugee Agency Bangkok (21 Mar 2017), in Taiwan (5 Aug > 2019) and Australia (25 Dec 2019 to 9 Jan 2020): > > [1] https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com/ > > [2] https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.sg/ > > [3] https://www.scribd.com/user/270125049/Teo-En-Ming > > -END EMAIL SIGNATURE- > ___ > CentOS mailing list > CentOS@centos.org > https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos > ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
[CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
Good day from Singapore, What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream? At the moment, I only know that CentOS 8 support will end on 31 December 2021 while Red Hat Inc will shift its focus to CentOS Stream. Is CentOS Stream going to be very similar to Fedora Linux, shipping with the latest Linux Kernel like 5.10.1? I am looking forward to hearing from you. Thank you. -BEGIN EMAIL SIGNATURE- The Gospel for all Targeted Individuals (TIs): [The New York Times] Microwave Weapons Are Prime Suspect in Ills of U.S. Embassy Workers Link: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/01/science/sonic-attack-cuba-microwave.html Singaporean Targeted Individual Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming's Academic Qualifications as at 14 Feb 2019 and refugee seeking attempts at the United Nations Refugee Agency Bangkok (21 Mar 2017), in Taiwan (5 Aug 2019) and Australia (25 Dec 2019 to 9 Jan 2020): [1] https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com/ [2] https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.sg/ [3] https://www.scribd.com/user/270125049/Teo-En-Ming -END EMAIL SIGNATURE- ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
