Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Anand Buddhdev]

On 09/10/2017 13:54, hw wrote:

Mark,

> It is quite obvious that Centos causes issues because it is not
> following the FHS.

Stop right there. CentOS *is* following the FHS. Can you please stop
this whiny complaint against CentOS, and just accept that the packages
you're using are not properly packaged for CentOS 7?

Then, if you still wish to use them, then apply fixes as I have
suggested, and also file bug reports.

You entire basis, by claiming that CentOS is not following the FHS, is
wrong. Now stop propagating it.

Regards,
Anand
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Anand Buddhdev]

On 09/10/2017 12:38, hw wrote:

>> 4. Finally, if you as a sysadmin are using a package from a repo that
>> isn't CentOS or EPEL, and this package is not following the CentOS
>> packaging protocol for data in /run, then it is YOUR own responsibility
>> to fix the package, or create your own tmpfiles.d snippet to create the
>> required directories.
> 
> Lighttpd is from epel.

Then it's a big bug, and you should immediately file a bug report for
it, so that the packager can fix it. Packages in CentOS as well as EPEL
aren't perfect, and sometimes need to be fixed. We can help by filing
bug reports.

> I´m not whining, and it´s not my fault that someone came up with the
> extremely stupid idea to use a ramdisk for /var/run.  It´s also not my
> fault that lighttpd appears not to be packaged the way it would need to
> be, and the same goes for the mariadb packages provided for Centos by
> the mariadb people.

CentOS 7 was released in August 2015, which is over 2 years ago. Any
package that hasn't adapted to CentOS 7's temporary /var/run by now is
badly broken. I would either avoid using it, or file a bug report for it
(and use my own tmpfiles.d file in the meantime).

Or, you can download the SRPM of the package, introduce a tmpfiles.d
snippet and rebuild the package yourself.

You have many choices to make it work properly.

> Perhaps you should complain to whomever made this change for not waiting
> until all packages have been modified and to the package managers who
> didn´t modify them before actually deploying it, for not to mention the
> stupidity of the idea, rather than accusing me of whining.

I shouldn't, because I'm not using the package in question. I *have*
used other packages from EPEL, where I've seen this problem, and I've
filed bug reports for them, repackaged them myself, or used my own
custom tmpfiles.d file to work around the package's deficiency.

Anand
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Mon, October 9, 2017 3:31 pm, Jon LaBadie wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 08:32:32PM +0200, Alexander Dalloz wrote:
>> Am 09.10.2017 um 17:54 schrieb Jonathan Billings:
>> > I think that the important learning points today are:
>> >
>> > 1.) CentOS7 (and any other distro that uses systemd) will have /run as
>> > a tmpfs filesystem, and /var/run points to /run on CentOS7, so even if
>> > you think this disagrees with the FHS, that's the way it is for
>> > CentOS.
>>
>> And fun fact: not only RHEL 7 and thus CentOS 7 does so, but too Debian
>> 9
>> and Ubuntu 16.04 LTS (I have no newer test install of that distro).
>>
>> And frankly speaking, I don't see any indication that this violates with
>> the
>> FHS and that /var/run must persist reboots.
>>
> Just the opposite, the FHS condones the CentOS arrangement.
>
> Under /var/run it says:
>
>   "In general, the requirements for /run shall also apply to /var/run.
>It is valid to implement /var/run as a symlink to /run."

Indeed, there are many UNIX ties Linux had that were severed by hard work
of developing systemd and friends. I guess we just have to live with that
(sigh).

Valeri

>
> jl
> --
> Jon H. LaBadie j...@jgcomp.com
>  11226 South Shore Rd.  (703) 787-0688 (H)
>  Reston, VA  20190  (703) 935-6720 (C)
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Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Jon LaBadie]

On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 08:32:32PM +0200, Alexander Dalloz wrote:
> Am 09.10.2017 um 17:54 schrieb Jonathan Billings:
> > I think that the important learning points today are:
> > 
> > 1.) CentOS7 (and any other distro that uses systemd) will have /run as
> > a tmpfs filesystem, and /var/run points to /run on CentOS7, so even if
> > you think this disagrees with the FHS, that's the way it is for
> > CentOS.
> 
> And fun fact: not only RHEL 7 and thus CentOS 7 does so, but too Debian 9
> and Ubuntu 16.04 LTS (I have no newer test install of that distro).
> 
> And frankly speaking, I don't see any indication that this violates with the
> FHS and that /var/run must persist reboots.
> 
Just the opposite, the FHS condones the CentOS arrangement.

Under /var/run it says:

  "In general, the requirements for /run shall also apply to /var/run.
   It is valid to implement /var/run as a symlink to /run."

jl
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Jon LaBadie]

> 
> Best practises also involve to generally not delete files unless you can
> be sure that they can be deleted.  That is probably what the FHS
> intended by specifying that files in /var/run must be deleted/truncated
> at boot time, assuming that the programs that created them would do this
> (and then create them anew if needed), which can be assumed to be
> reasonably safe since it implies that unknown files remain.
> 
> For all I know, someones life could depend on a file that was placed
> somewhere mistakenly.
> 
What a strawman.  You mean that person would still be alive
if the file disappeared during boot rather than shutdown?

jl
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Alexander Dalloz]

Am 09.10.2017 um 17:54 schrieb Jonathan Billings:

I think that the important learning points today are:

1.) CentOS7 (and any other distro that uses systemd) will have /run as
a tmpfs filesystem, and /var/run points to /run on CentOS7, so even if
you think this disagrees with the FHS, that's the way it is for
CentOS.


And fun fact: not only RHEL 7 and thus CentOS 7 does so, but too Debian 
9 and Ubuntu 16.04 LTS (I have no newer test install of that distro).


And frankly speaking, I don't see any indication that this violates with 
the FHS and that /var/run must persist reboots.


Can we please end this stupid discussion? Enough arguments have been 
exchanged to make clear that packages are broken if they ignore the fact 
that /var/run content is ephemeral.


Alexander
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Jonathan Billings]

On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 12:38:41PM +0200, hw wrote:
> I´m not whining, and it´s not my fault that someone came up with the
> extremely stupid idea to use a ramdisk for /var/run.  It´s also not my
> fault that lighttpd appears not to be packaged the way it would need to
> be, and the same goes for the mariadb packages provided for Centos by
> the mariadb people.
> 
> Perhaps you should complain to whomever made this change for not waiting
> until all packages have been modified and to the package managers who
> didn´t modify them before actually deploying it, for not to mention the
> stupidity of the idea, rather than accusing me of whining.

I think that the important learning points today are:

1.) CentOS7 (and any other distro that uses systemd) will have /run as
a tmpfs filesystem, and /var/run points to /run on CentOS7, so even if
you think this disagrees with the FHS, that's the way it is for
CentOS.

2.) If you are using non-CentOS packages (and that includes EPEL) to
run a service, you might need to create your own tmpfiles.d files.
This is just a fact of life now.  You can also file bugs against the
software telling them that /var/run is ephemeral so don't store
important files there.

3.) Systemd developers aren't going to sit around and wait for
developers to change how they put files.  They've made a lot of
significant changes to how systems are managed, for better or for
worst, and as people who maintain CentOS systems, we've got to learn
to use it appropriately.

There's a lot of conversations that end, "This is how it's done."
"But that's stupid!" "Well, tough, that's how it is..." when managing
computers, and I'm sure this won't be the last like it.  (I remember
early in my career wondering why creat() was spelled that way...)

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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Jonathan Billings]

On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 02:06:35PM +0200, hw wrote:
> > If the EPEL package did too, then there could be serious problems with
> > that package. However, I see that it has a
> > /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d/lighttpd.conf, so it is ok.
> 
> Hm, then how come it´s so troublesome?
> 
> I have /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d/httpd.conf.  It seems to have remained
> because I had httpd (which is apache) installed and then switched to
> lighttpd and removed httpd.
> 
> httpd is no longer installed.  The only installed package referring to
> it is apache-commons-logging, and I don´t know why it hasn´t been
> removed.
> 
> The contents of /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d/httpd.conf indicate that this file
> is for apache.  Why hasn´t this file been removed when httpd was
> removed?
> 
> There is no file lighttpd.conf in /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d.
> 
> Does this mean that both packages, httpd and lighttpd, have serious
> problems because they do not remove and do not install files correctly?

You are right, the EPEL version of lighttpd doesn't have a tmpfiles.d
file.  I foolishly expected the Fedora package to be similar to the
EPEL package, but looking at the RPM spec file, it only installs the
tmpfiles.d file for Fedora 15 or greater.  Probably worth filing a bug
against EPEL about that.

I can't explain why your httpd tmpfiles.d file is still there, other
than if it was saved as part of an upgrade/removal because of local
changes. (and even then, it should have a .rpmsave extension, I
think).  It's not marked as a config file in the RPM, so that's
unlikely.

It is owned by the httpd package:
$ rpm -qf /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d/httpd.conf
httpd-2.4.6-67.el7_4.2.x86_64


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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[hw]

Mark Haney  writes:

> On 10/04/2017 08:46 AM, Gary Stainburn wrote:
>> On Wednesday 04 October 2017 13:39:30 Mark Haney wrote:
>>> I'll end this by saying, I hope the production servers you have don't
>>> provide critical services that could jeopardize the lives of people.
>>> I'd ask who you work for, to make sure I avoid them at all costs, but
>>> I'm not sure I'd be told.
>> The company I work for, and the livelihood of the hundreds of employees 
>> depend
>> on my servers. In the 30 years I've been in the industry, I've never had
>> problems as you've described
>> ___
>
> In 30 years you've obviously learned nothing about Unix/Linux.  I'd be
> embarrassed to claim that length of IT service and do something as
> catastrophically stupid as what you're doing now.  Just because it
> hasn't been a problem' doesn't mean it won't.  Seriously, if it were
> me, I'd either retire or hire someone better than you with production
> servers.
>
> You'd think, with your supposed experience, you wouldn't use the 'well
> it's never happened before' as a viable reason for doing something. 
> That's ignorant, immature and far more dangerous for your organization
> than I would be happy with as a CEO or Manager. That attitude is never
> excusable.

What do you propose as an alternative?

You can test something, like some software, over and over again in any
way that comes to mind, and at some point, you may conclude that it
seems to be working and may go into production.  That conclusion is
solely based upon "it hasn´t happened yet", simply because whatever bug
of what you´re testing hasn´t shown any effect yet.

Following your argumentation, you would never have a reason to put
something into production, or to use it.

> This conversation is over. You refuse to listen to literally EVERYONE
> ELSE ON THE LIST and therefore not worth anyone else's time trying to
> help you.  (Especially mine.)

Who else?

> I showed my daughter this thread, she's a freshman in the Honors
> College of Engineering at Virginia Tech majoring in Math and CpE, has
> been using linux since she was old enough to sit at a keyboard and
> even she was appalled.  If that doesn't tell you something, nothing
> will.

What was she appalled about?

> Do us all a favor and don't post to the list unless you are willing to
> listen to rational human beings.


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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[hw]

Gary Stainburn  writes:

> On Tuesday 03 October 2017 18:24:01 Mark Haney wrote:
>> What issue? That the PID is dropped on reboot?  What else are you
>> putting in there?  I'm beginning to question whether you know what
>> you're doing or not.  Lighttpd doesn't store any persistent info in
>> /var/run/ because, like everything else, /var/run isn't for persistent
>> data.
>
> Mark, Many Non-Centos originated packages create directories in /var/run as 
> part of the install, and expect them to still exist after a reboot.

I would also expect that.

> They then fail when starting the service because they're trying to create a 
> PID / Lock file in a directory that no longer exists.  This problem has been 
> around ever since /var/run was moved to tmpfs.

A ramdisk?  That´s an incredibly stupid idea.  Ramdisks should not be
used by default.

Is there a way to change that?

> Unfortunately, sometimes we have to use packages other than the official 
> Centos ones, usually as in this case because we need newer versions.
>
> There is a solution that saves /var/run to disk at shutdown and restores it 
> at 
> bootup but I can't remember what it is.

That doesn´t protect you in case of a power failure and may increase
shutdown durations to a point where the amount of time it takes to
shutdown isn´t fully covered by the UPS.


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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[hw]

Gordon Messmer  writes:

> On 10/04/2017 04:54 AM, Mark Haney wrote:
>> Why is it so hard for people to understand that var/run IS NOT
>> PERSISTENT and was never meant to be?  Do they not teach basic Unix
>> concepts anymore?
>
>
> http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#VARRUNRUNTIMEVARIABLEDATA
>
> While FHS notes that *files* should be cleared during the boot
> process, it does not indicate that directories should be, and that is
> the source of this problem.

That´s a really good point, thank you.

> Packages on recent Fedora, RHEL, or CentOS releases should use
> tmpfiles.d to define directory structure within /var/run, but that is
> a unique and recent development.
>
> Please chill out.  There is no need to berate users, here.


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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[hw]

Mark Haney  writes:

> On 10/04/2017 04:23 AM, Gary Stainburn wrote:
>>
>> Mark, Many Non-Centos originated packages create directories in /var/run as
>> part of the install, and expect them to still exist after a reboot.
>>
>> They then fail when starting the service because they're trying to create a
>> PID / Lock file in a directory that no longer exists.  This problem has been
>> around ever since /var/run was moved to tmpfs.
>>
>> Unfortunately, sometimes we have to use packages other than the official
>> Centos ones, usually as in this case because we need newer versions.
>>
>> There is a solution that saves /var/run to disk at shutdown and restores it 
>> at
>> bootup but I can't remember what it is.
> Sorry, but if you have to use packages that don't originate from
> CentOS and they do that, then I wouldn't use them. Period.  I'd
> compile from source before I used something configured that way.
>
> Why is it so hard for people to understand that var/run IS NOT
> PERSISTENT and was never meant to be?

This isn´t true, the directory is persistent, and the FHS says:

"Files under this directory must be cleared (removed or truncated as
appropriate) at the beginning of the boot process."[1]

[2] doesn´t tell you that files in /var/run will disappear at shutdown.

Using a ramdisk to store such files is not compliant with the FHS
because the files are neither truncated, nor removed; they are being
disappeared, and not at the beginning of the boot process but at
shutdown.  Using a ramdisk is not appropriate.

The safe and compliant way would be to truncate the files and not to
remove or to disappear them.

The FHS doesn´t say /which/ files should be cleared or removed.  I would
say that all files the removal or truncation of is not explicitly
specified must neither be removed, nor truncated, and that automatically
removing files is generally questionable and needs to be done, if at
all, with great care.

I can only speculate (and hope) that the intention of the FHS here is
that programs creating files under /var/run are supposed to remove or
truncate the files they created during the previous runtime, and only
those, when the system boots, which would be the time when those
programs are being started.


[1]:
http://refspecs.linuxfoundation.org/FHS_2.3/fhs-2.3.html#VARRUNRUNTIMEVARIABLEDATA

[2]:
https://www.centos.org/docs/5/html/Deployment_Guide-en-US/s1-filesystem-fhs.html


> Do they not teach basic Unix concepts anymore?  If you think that
> setup is acceptable, I wouldn't hire you to water my lawn as you'd
> likely water the electrical box along with said lawn.
>
> These are VERY VERY basic concepts.  Banging a square peg into a round
> hole, even in a test environment is a good way to get fired and become
> unemployable.  And believe me, word gets around quickly in IT
> circles.  If you can't build from source to keep from using
> non-standard packages, then you really shouldn't be doing whatever it
> is you were hired to do.
>
> This is extremely basic arithmetic here.  You don't do surgery with
> dirty scalpels, you don't drive without brakes, these are axiomatic
> just like /var/run isn't persistent.  It's been that way at least
> since I was in HS and college in the 80s and very very likely since
> the early Unix days.

Then how come that the first time I´m seeing an issue like this is only
after someone made the utterly stupid decision to use a ramdisk for
/var/run?

It is a change that has been made at some time, and we weren´t told
about it.  Assuming that people not being informed about a change are
stupid because they don´t know about it is a stupid thing to do.

> Honestly, I feel bad for your employer if you think this is an
> acceptable way to get a system working.
>
> There, I've said my piece. Call it a flame if you want, truth hurts
> and ignoring basic rules is a good way to hurt yourself or other
> people.

Making things worse by providing dirty scalpels or vehicles without
brakes --- with or without telling those who are going to use them ---
doesn´t make things better, and it can be argued that someone providing
those should be fired because of their stupidity.

Alas, the only thing that helps against stupidity is more stupidity.
Getting upset about it does not.


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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[hw]

Mark Haney  writes:

> It's quite obvious you aren't using Centos packages.

Again: lighttpd is from epel.

See [1]: "EPEL packages are usually based on their Fedora counterparts
and will never conflict with or replace packages in the base Enterprise
Linux distributions."

If there wasn´t some sort of conflict, then there wouldn´t be an issue
with lighttpd.

Mariadb is from the mariadb repo.

It is quite obvious that Centos causes issues because it is not
following the FHS.


[1]: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL

> If you refuse to do as best practices insist (and have for nearly HALF

I´m not insisting on anything, I´m merely pissed that things are broken.
It has turned out that this is due to the way Centos doesn´t follow the
FHS.

Not following the FHS probably doesn´t exactly fall under best
practises, but Centos insists on doing so.

> A CENTURY) then no one here can help you.  It seems to me that 1)
> you'd be better off compiling from source for your environment,

And you guarantee that if I was to compile lighttpd from source, there
wouldn´t be any issues?  Who says that it is better to compile lighttpd
from source rather than using a package specifically made for Centos
that provides it?

Who says that compiling your own packages falls under best practises? Do
you compile all software you´re using yourself because otherwise you´d
be refusing best practises?

I thought it needless to say, but compiling from source instead of using
packages provided by or for the distribution I´m using is virtually the
opposite of following best practises, for a number of reasons.  I only
do that when there isn´t a better alternative.

> or 2) that you need to follow practices established (probably) before
> you were born

Living in the past seldwhen is a good idea.  Lots of practises that were
established before I was born have disappeared, been replaced by others,
or were revised.  Why should I follow outdated practises?

> or 3) that you stop asking the
> list for thing no one in their right mind would do.
>
> How hard is that math?

It doesn´t compute at all.

Please don´t feel insulted by the following; it is not my intention to
insult you.  It´s merely what I´m thinking:

I can see you saying repeatedly that things should be like you want them
to be because you think that they have been the way you think they are
for a long time and that everyone who doesn´t think the same way must be
either out of their right mind, or stupid or both.  That makes me think
that you´re living in the past and, spinning around in that circle, lack
the flexibility often times required nowadays, letting aside that there
seem to be things you´re mistaken about.

My understanding is also that your way of thinking tries to gain
orientation by looking at structures and neglects the contents of those
very structures; which is not a good idea because structures without
content are hollow and rather meaningless, and anything but seldwhen,
the content of these structures is far more relevant than the structures
themselves, and requires to adjust ones ways of thinking --- and
eventually the structures --- accordingly for to come up with desirable
and adequate results.  (IMHO this is something you really need to show
your daughter, even if it probably doesn´t compute for you.)

I´m much more understanding than mathematical.  Unfortunately, math
doesn´t make sense to me, and it is even illogical.  That may very well
qualify as "being out of my right mind" from your perspective, and I can
live with that because from my perspective, it is not true that I am.


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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[hw]

Jonathan Billings  writes:

> On Oct 3, 2017, at 13:12, hw  wrote:
>> 
>> I´m using the packages from mariadb.org.  The old version that comes in
>> Centos isn´t recommended, and I need features only the newer versions
>> provide.
>> 
>> 
>> Lighttpd is from epel, and it has basically the same issue.
>
> If the mariadb.org package thinks /var/run is persistent, then it’s not 
> intended for CentOS7. 

Or it is intended for Centos and not done how it needs to be because
Centos differs from the FHS ...

> If the EPEL package did too, then there could be serious problems with
> that package. However, I see that it has a
> /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d/lighttpd.conf, so it is ok.

Hm, then how come it´s so troublesome?

I have /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d/httpd.conf.  It seems to have remained
because I had httpd (which is apache) installed and then switched to
lighttpd and removed httpd.

httpd is no longer installed.  The only installed package referring to
it is apache-commons-logging, and I don´t know why it hasn´t been
removed.

The contents of /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d/httpd.conf indicate that this file
is for apache.  Why hasn´t this file been removed when httpd was
removed?

There is no file lighttpd.conf in /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d.

Does this mean that both packages, httpd and lighttpd, have serious
problems because they do not remove and do not install files correctly?


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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[hw]

Anand Buddhdev  writes:

> On 05/10/2017 11:32, hw wrote:
>
>>> That directory isn't temporary.  The files almost always are, but not
>>> the directories.  As I said, whatever it is you're doing, it's wrong. 
>>> I wouldn't continue to keep a setup like that as it's not standard
>>> practice to keep data in /var/run that isn't temporary.
>> 
>> Well, what am I supposed to do?  The socket (or what it was) needs to be
>> put somewhere, and IIRC, it wasn´t my choice to put it there but is a
>> default.  With mariadb, there are some defaults you can´t reasonably
>> change because other software expects files where they usually are.  And
>> I don´t want to change that, I just want mariadb and lighttpd and other
>> things to start on reboots rather than being broken because someone
>> decided that files/directories they require are to be deleted on reboots
>> before they can start.
>
> I can't believe people are still asking this question after being given
> appropriate advice. So let me repeat it, and don't ask again unless
> you've read this properly:

I haven´t had time to read all of this thread before today.

> 1. /var/run is a symlink to /run, which is a tmpfs mounted in RAM.
>
> 2. At reboot, /run vanishes, and EVERYTHING that was in it, vanishes
> with it.
>
> 3. For this reason, systemd ships with a utility called
> systemd-tmpfiles, which is run early in the boot process, to create any
> appropriate files and directories in /run. Packages that require
> directories to be present in /run (for keeping PID files or sockets),
> should ship with the appropriate tmpfiles.d snippets to have these
> directories created for them on boot.
>
> 4. Finally, if you as a sysadmin are using a package from a repo that
> isn't CentOS or EPEL, and this package is not following the CentOS
> packaging protocol for data in /run, then it is YOUR own responsibility
> to fix the package, or create your own tmpfiles.d snippet to create the
> required directories.

Lighttpd is from epel.

> 5. Learn about systemd-tmpfiles by reading the man pages of
> "systemd-tmpfiles" and "tmpfiles.d".
>
> This is as clear as crystal. If, despite this instruction, you cannot,
> or do not want to work with CentOS as it was intended, then stop whining
> about things here.

I´m not whining, and it´s not my fault that someone came up with the
extremely stupid idea to use a ramdisk for /var/run.  It´s also not my
fault that lighttpd appears not to be packaged the way it would need to
be, and the same goes for the mariadb packages provided for Centos by
the mariadb people.

Perhaps you should complain to whomever made this change for not waiting
until all packages have been modified and to the package managers who
didn´t modify them before actually deploying it, for not to mention the
stupidity of the idea, rather than accusing me of whining.


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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[hw]

Mark Haney  writes:

> On 10/04/2017 08:22 AM, Gary Stainburn wrote:
>> On Wednesday 04 October 2017 12:54:44 Mark Haney wrote:
>>> Sorry, but if you have to use packages that don't originate from CentOS
>>> and they do that, then I wouldn't use them. Period.  I'd compile from
>>> source before I used something configured that way.
>> This perspective to some extent employs cutting your nose of dispite youre
>> face.  Before Packages were introduced, everyone compiled from source. That
>> was a pain, and a long process, especially when you had dependancies that you
>> also had to compile.  Packages eased this process but kept the dependancy
>> issue.
> If you think using non-standard packages that put /persistent/ items
> in non-persistent locations like /var/run in production environments
> is far more acceptable than compiling from source because of package
> management 'benefits' then (to me anyway) you're lazy and dangerous
> with critical data.  My statement still stands.  Let me be clear:

Please explain how compiling packages yourself turns such packages into
standard packages.

> THIS. IS. NOT. ACCEPTABLE.

It is not acceptable to create the system in such a way that files
indiscriminately disappear, without any check whatsoever if that´s ok.

> The fact you'd rather bandaid a problem (in production no less) than
> follow proper standards or compile from source to avoid said bandaid
> would be a fire-able offense in any IT shop I've ever worked at.

Did they require you to verify all the sources of packages you compiled
yourself to make sure that they behave exactly like the packages that
come with the distribution?

How is compiling packages yourself not another bandaid?

>> Package managers got round (mostly) both the dependancy problem and updating
>> too. The problem with package maintainers not keeping up to date shows that
>> this still isn't perfect.
>>
>> However, if you go back to compiling from source then you lose all of these
>> benefits.
>>
>> Thankfully I do not earn my keep by watering lawns.  I do not believe that
>> this is acceptable, but by the same token I have to earn my keep and that
>> involves having working production servers and services.
>>
>> I have managed to get round this problem in the past through manually doing
>> the same function as systemd-tmpfiles. It is a small price to pay to have a
>> working, (relatively) up to date server.
> The fact you find this acceptable means you're either the only
> qualified' (and even that is subject to doubt) person there, or your
> management is too ignorant to understand the danger.

How is compiling your own packages not a danger?

> I'm sorry, but in no way is this acceptable for production level
> servers. I'm sure, if you asked 100 IT people you'd get 100 to agree
> with me.  Being flippant with production servers is never acceptable.

Then you have to agree that defaulting to using a ramdisk for /var/run
--- or anything else --- is an utterly stupid idea.

> Of course, most people refuse to listen to logic and reason because
> they are convinced they are right despite evidence (and best practices
> over 40+ years of Unix) to the contrary.

I don´t see how compiling your own packages or randomly disappearing
files falls under best practises.

> I'll end this by saying, I hope the production servers you have don't
> provide critical services that could jeopardize the lives of people. 
> I'd ask who you work for, to make sure I avoid them at all costs, but
> I'm not sure I'd be told.
>
> Again, denying 40+ years of Unix design and  best practices because
> you're too lazy to manage compiling from source to avoid denying those
> practices is truly one of the most astonishing things I've ever seen
> in the 25 years I've been in IT.
>
> Then again, maybe I'm old-fashioned when I expect to do something and
> do it right rather than half-ass it.

People always make mistakes.  Best practises can´t be best practises
unless they take this into account, and that involves not deleting,
truncating or disappearing files that have been placed somewhere,
mistakenly or otherwise, lightheadedly.  That particularly applies to
unknown files, like files in /var/run, which have been placed there and
have not been specified for removal, perhaps due to a mistake of the
package manager.

Best practises also involve to generally not delete files unless you can
be sure that they can be deleted.  That is probably what the FHS
intended by specifying that files in /var/run must be deleted/truncated
at boot time, assuming that the programs that created them would do this
(and then create them anew if needed), which can be assumed to be
reasonably safe since it implies that unknown files remain.

For all I know, someones life could depend on a file that was placed
somewhere mistakenly.


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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[hw]

Harold Toms  writes:

> On 01/10/17 16:21, hw wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> how can I prevent files/directories like /var/run/mariadb from being
>> deleted on reboot?  Lighttpd has the same problem.
>>
>> This breaks services and makes servers non-restartable by anyone else
>> but the administrator who needs to re-create the needed files and
>> directories every time and has to figure out what selinux labels they
>> need.  This causes unnecessary downtimes.
>>
>> This is entirely inacceptable.  This totally sucks.
>>
>>
> Assuming that your /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d/mariadb.conf file contains:
>
> d /var/run/mariadb 0755 mysql mysql -

Thanks!  There is no such file.


Apparently we are not supposed to create such files, and now I must
compile mariadb from source because otherwise I wouldn´t be following
best practises an be out of my right mind ... ;)

Somehow, I doubt I would have a file like that if I did that.  I might
even get stuck in a compiling loop, following best practises
indefinitely ...

> the /var/run/mariadb should be recreated on every reboot... if it is
> not, perhaps either the mysql user or group do not exist. Check
> /etc/passwd and /etc/group.

They do exist.


The server isn´t in production yet, so I can create the file and see
what happens when rebooting it.  Let´s hope that it doesn´t vanish when
I do that ...


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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Mark Haney]

It's quite obvious you aren't using Centos packages.  If you refuse to do
as best practices insist (and have for nearly HALF A CENTURY) then no one
here can help you.  It seems to me that 1) you'd be better off compiling
from source for your environment, or 2) that you need to follow practices
established (probably) before you were born or 3) that you stop asking the
list for thing no one in their right mind would do.

How hard is that math?

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 5:32 AM, hw  wrote:

> Mark Haney  writes:
>
> > On 10/03/2017 01:12 PM, hw wrote:
> >>
> >>> See
> >>>
> >>> https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2016/09/20/managing-
> temporary-files-with-systemd-tmpfiles-on-rhel7/
> >>>
> >>> how to manage tmpfiles.
> >> Thanks, I´ll look into that.  I wouldn´t consider a directory like
> >> /var/run/mariadb in any way as only temporary --- and wouldn´t consider
> >> directories that are required for the system to work as temporary,
> >> either.
> > That directory isn't temporary.  The files almost always are, but not
> > the directories.  As I said, whatever it is you're doing, it's wrong.
> > I wouldn't continue to keep a setup like that as it's not standard
> > practice to keep data in /var/run that isn't temporary.
>
> Well, what am I supposed to do?  The socket (or what it was) needs to be
> put somewhere, and IIRC, it wasn´t my choice to put it there but is a
> default.  With mariadb, there are some defaults you can´t reasonably
> change because other software expects files where they usually are.  And
> I don´t want to change that, I just want mariadb and lighttpd and other
> things to start on reboots rather than being broken because someone
> decided that files/directories they require are to be deleted on reboots
> before they can start.
>
> > However, you seem to be insistent on doing things contrary to best
> > practices so.
> >>> Curious, how did you install MariaDB that you have such a problem? The
> >>> package shipping with CentOS does not create such issue.
> >> I´m using the packages from mariadb.org.  The old version that comes in
> >> Centos isn´t recommended, and I need features only the newer versions
> >> provide.
> >>
> >>
> >> Lighttpd is from epel, and it has basically the same issue.
> >>
> >>
> > What issue? That the PID is dropped on reboot?  What else are you
> > putting in there?  I'm beginning to question whether you know what
> > you're doing or not.  Lighttpd doesn't store any persistent info in
> > /var/run/ because, like everything else, /var/run isn't for persistent
> > data.
>
> IIRC, lighttpd won´t start unless you mess with where it puts its pid
> file.  I think I had to resort to put it into /tmp or something like
> that because the place where it´s supposed to put it gets deleted on
> reboots.
>
> I´ve never before had issues like this.
>
>
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www.neonova.net 
  

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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[marcos valentine]

Amand

*Thank you for the explanation .*


2017-10-05 7:00 GMT-03:00 Anand Buddhdev :

> On 05/10/2017 11:32, hw wrote:
>
> >> That directory isn't temporary.  The files almost always are, but not
> >> the directories.  As I said, whatever it is you're doing, it's wrong.
> >> I wouldn't continue to keep a setup like that as it's not standard
> >> practice to keep data in /var/run that isn't temporary.
> >
> > Well, what am I supposed to do?  The socket (or what it was) needs to be
> > put somewhere, and IIRC, it wasn´t my choice to put it there but is a
> > default.  With mariadb, there are some defaults you can´t reasonably
> > change because other software expects files where they usually are.  And
> > I don´t want to change that, I just want mariadb and lighttpd and other
> > things to start on reboots rather than being broken because someone
> > decided that files/directories they require are to be deleted on reboots
> > before they can start.
>
> I can't believe people are still asking this question after being given
> appropriate advice. So let me repeat it, and don't ask again unless
> you've read this properly:
>
> 1. /var/run is a symlink to /run, which is a tmpfs mounted in RAM.
>
> 2. At reboot, /run vanishes, and EVERYTHING that was in it, vanishes
> with it.
>
> 3. For this reason, systemd ships with a utility called
> systemd-tmpfiles, which is run early in the boot process, to create any
> appropriate files and directories in /run. Packages that require
> directories to be present in /run (for keeping PID files or sockets),
> should ship with the appropriate tmpfiles.d snippets to have these
> directories created for them on boot.
>
> 4. Finally, if you as a sysadmin are using a package from a repo that
> isn't CentOS or EPEL, and this package is not following the CentOS
> packaging protocol for data in /run, then it is YOUR own responsibility
> to fix the package, or create your own tmpfiles.d snippet to create the
> required directories.
>
> 5. Learn about systemd-tmpfiles by reading the man pages of
> "systemd-tmpfiles" and "tmpfiles.d".
>
> This is as clear as crystal. If, despite this instruction, you cannot,
> or do not want to work with CentOS as it was intended, then stop whining
> about things here.
>
> Regards,
> Anand
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Anand Buddhdev]

On 05/10/2017 11:32, hw wrote:

>> That directory isn't temporary.  The files almost always are, but not
>> the directories.  As I said, whatever it is you're doing, it's wrong. 
>> I wouldn't continue to keep a setup like that as it's not standard
>> practice to keep data in /var/run that isn't temporary.
> 
> Well, what am I supposed to do?  The socket (or what it was) needs to be
> put somewhere, and IIRC, it wasn´t my choice to put it there but is a
> default.  With mariadb, there are some defaults you can´t reasonably
> change because other software expects files where they usually are.  And
> I don´t want to change that, I just want mariadb and lighttpd and other
> things to start on reboots rather than being broken because someone
> decided that files/directories they require are to be deleted on reboots
> before they can start.

I can't believe people are still asking this question after being given
appropriate advice. So let me repeat it, and don't ask again unless
you've read this properly:

1. /var/run is a symlink to /run, which is a tmpfs mounted in RAM.

2. At reboot, /run vanishes, and EVERYTHING that was in it, vanishes
with it.

3. For this reason, systemd ships with a utility called
systemd-tmpfiles, which is run early in the boot process, to create any
appropriate files and directories in /run. Packages that require
directories to be present in /run (for keeping PID files or sockets),
should ship with the appropriate tmpfiles.d snippets to have these
directories created for them on boot.

4. Finally, if you as a sysadmin are using a package from a repo that
isn't CentOS or EPEL, and this package is not following the CentOS
packaging protocol for data in /run, then it is YOUR own responsibility
to fix the package, or create your own tmpfiles.d snippet to create the
required directories.

5. Learn about systemd-tmpfiles by reading the man pages of
"systemd-tmpfiles" and "tmpfiles.d".

This is as clear as crystal. If, despite this instruction, you cannot,
or do not want to work with CentOS as it was intended, then stop whining
about things here.

Regards,
Anand
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[hw]

Mark Haney  writes:

> On 10/03/2017 01:12 PM, hw wrote:
>>
>>> See
>>>
>>> https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2016/09/20/managing-temporary-files-with-systemd-tmpfiles-on-rhel7/
>>>
>>> how to manage tmpfiles.
>> Thanks, I´ll look into that.  I wouldn´t consider a directory like
>> /var/run/mariadb in any way as only temporary --- and wouldn´t consider
>> directories that are required for the system to work as temporary,
>> either.
> That directory isn't temporary.  The files almost always are, but not
> the directories.  As I said, whatever it is you're doing, it's wrong. 
> I wouldn't continue to keep a setup like that as it's not standard
> practice to keep data in /var/run that isn't temporary.

Well, what am I supposed to do?  The socket (or what it was) needs to be
put somewhere, and IIRC, it wasn´t my choice to put it there but is a
default.  With mariadb, there are some defaults you can´t reasonably
change because other software expects files where they usually are.  And
I don´t want to change that, I just want mariadb and lighttpd and other
things to start on reboots rather than being broken because someone
decided that files/directories they require are to be deleted on reboots
before they can start.

> However, you seem to be insistent on doing things contrary to best
> practices so.
>>> Curious, how did you install MariaDB that you have such a problem? The
>>> package shipping with CentOS does not create such issue.
>> I´m using the packages from mariadb.org.  The old version that comes in
>> Centos isn´t recommended, and I need features only the newer versions
>> provide.
>>
>>
>> Lighttpd is from epel, and it has basically the same issue.
>>
>>
> What issue? That the PID is dropped on reboot?  What else are you
> putting in there?  I'm beginning to question whether you know what
> you're doing or not.  Lighttpd doesn't store any persistent info in
> /var/run/ because, like everything else, /var/run isn't for persistent
> data.

IIRC, lighttpd won´t start unless you mess with where it puts its pid
file.  I think I had to resort to put it into /tmp or something like
that because the place where it´s supposed to put it gets deleted on
reboots.

I´ve never before had issues like this.


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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Andrew Holway]

On 4 October 2017 at 16:06,  wrote:

>I have not followed this thread since the first few emails... but has
> anyone suggested the SCL repo? I see mysql 5.6 and 5.7 there.
>

+1 for SCL -
https://www.softwarecollections.org/en/scls/rhscl/rh-mariadb101/
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Harold Toms]

On 01/10/17 16:21, hw wrote:

Hi,

how can I prevent files/directories like /var/run/mariadb from being
deleted on reboot?  Lighttpd has the same problem.

This breaks services and makes servers non-restartable by anyone else
but the administrator who needs to re-create the needed files and
directories every time and has to figure out what selinux labels they
need.  This causes unnecessary downtimes.

This is entirely inacceptable.  This totally sucks.



Assuming that your /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d/mariadb.conf file contains:

d /var/run/mariadb 0755 mysql mysql -

the /var/run/mariadb should be recreated on every reboot... if it is 
not, perhaps either the mysql user or group do not exist. Check 
/etc/passwd and /etc/group.


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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Wed, October 4, 2017 9:38 am, Gordon Messmer wrote:
> On 10/04/2017 04:54 AM, Mark Haney wrote:
>> Why is it so hard for people to understand that var/run IS NOT
>> PERSISTENT and was never meant to be?  Do they not teach basic Unix
>> concepts anymore?

Well, Linux is not UNIX. And it never was, we used "UNIX-like" system
term. There were far too many changed in Linux some of us do not like. So,
let's take today's Linux (I almost used the word "modern") for what its
is.

>
> http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#VARRUNRUNTIMEVARIABLEDATA
>
> While FHS notes that *files* should be cleared during the boot process,
> it does not indicate that directories should be, and that is the source
> of this problem.  Packages on recent Fedora, RHEL, or CentOS releases
> should use tmpfiles.d to define directory structure within /var/run, but
> that is a unique and recent development.

Thanks, Gordon, for pointing to that!

Valeri

>
> Please chill out.  There is no need to berate users, here.
>
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Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[James B. Byrne]

On Tue, October 3, 2017 13:12, hw wrote:
> Alexander Dalloz  writes:
>
>> Am 01.10.2017 um 17:21 schrieb hw:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> how can I prevent files/directories like /var/run/mariadb from
>>> being deleted on reboot?  Lighttpd has the same problem.
>>>
>>> This breaks services and makes servers non-restartable by anyone
>>> else but the administrator who needs to re-create the needed
>>> files and directories every time and has to figure out what
>>> selinux labels they need.  This causes unnecessary downtimes.
>>>
>>> This is entirely inacceptable.  This totally sucks.

It will help you to avoid future unpleasant surprises if you take the
time to read up on the Hierarchical File System (HFS) and its relation
the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard (FHS).  The directories /run and
/var/run, which should be the same place on properly configured
systems, are solely to be used for run-time data ONLY.  The phrase
run-time implies ephemeral data that is not preserved between restarts
of the service much less reboots.

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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Gordon Messmer]

On 10/04/2017 04:54 AM, Mark Haney wrote:
Why is it so hard for people to understand that var/run IS NOT 
PERSISTENT and was never meant to be?  Do they not teach basic Unix 
concepts anymore?



http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#VARRUNRUNTIMEVARIABLEDATA

While FHS notes that *files* should be cleared during the boot process, 
it does not indicate that directories should be, and that is the source 
of this problem.  Packages on recent Fedora, RHEL, or CentOS releases 
should use tmpfiles.d to define directory structure within /var/run, but 
that is a unique and recent development.


Please chill out.  There is no need to berate users, here.

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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Gordon Messmer]

On 10/04/2017 01:23 AM, Gary Stainburn wrote:

There is a solution that saves /var/run to disk at shutdown and restores it at
bootup but I can't remember what it is.



The simplest solution that comes to mind at 7:30am is simply bind 
mounting a directory that's persistent.  You'll still need to define 
that directory using tmpfiles.d, but...


   echo "D /var/run/mariadb 0755 root root -" >
   /etc/tmpfiles.d/mariadb.conf
   mkdir /var/run-persistent/mariadb -p
   echo "/var/run-persistent/mariadb /var/run/mariadb none bind 0 0" >>
   /etc/fstab

Obviously, test this somewhere before you do it to a system you care 
about.  It's early, and I haven't.  I'm not sure startup ordering will 
be correct for this sort of thing...


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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[m . roth]

Ok, folks,

   I have not followed this thread since the first few emails... but has
anyone suggested the SCL repo? I see mysql 5.6 and 5.7 there.

   mark "this is not the flamewar I'm looking for. I'll move along"

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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Mark Haney]

On 10/04/2017 08:46 AM, Gary Stainburn wrote:

On Wednesday 04 October 2017 13:39:30 Mark Haney wrote:

I'll end this by saying, I hope the production servers you have don't
provide critical services that could jeopardize the lives of people.
I'd ask who you work for, to make sure I avoid them at all costs, but
I'm not sure I'd be told.

The company I work for, and the livelihood of the hundreds of employees depend
on my servers. In the 30 years I've been in the industry, I've never had
problems as you've described
___


In 30 years you've obviously learned nothing about Unix/Linux.  I'd be 
embarrassed to claim that length of IT service and do something as 
catastrophically stupid as what you're doing now.  Just because it 
'hasn't been a problem' doesn't mean it won't.  Seriously, if it were 
me, I'd either retire or hire someone better than you with production 
servers.


You'd think, with your supposed experience, you wouldn't use the 'well 
it's never happened before' as a viable reason for doing something.  
That's ignorant, immature and far more dangerous for your organization 
than I would be happy with as a CEO or Manager. That attitude is never 
excusable.


This conversation is over. You refuse to listen to literally EVERYONE 
ELSE ON THE LIST and therefore not worth anyone else's time trying to 
help you.  (Especially mine.)


I showed my daughter this thread, she's a freshman in the Honors College 
of Engineering at Virginia Tech majoring in Math and CpE, has been using 
linux since she was old enough to sit at a keyboard and even she was 
appalled.  If that doesn't tell you something, nothing will.


Do us all a favor and don't post to the list unless you are willing to 
listen to rational human beings.


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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Steve Clark]

On 10/04/2017 08:39 AM, Mark Haney wrote:
> On 10/04/2017 08:22 AM, Gary Stainburn wrote:
>> On Wednesday 04 October 2017 12:54:44 Mark Haney wrote:
>>> Sorry, but if you have to use packages that don't originate from CentOS
>>> and they do that, then I wouldn't use them. Period.  I'd compile from
>>> source before I used something configured that way.
>> This perspective to some extent employs cutting your nose of dispite youre
>> face.  Before Packages were introduced, everyone compiled from source. That
>> was a pain, and a long process, especially when you had dependancies that you
>> also had to compile.  Packages eased this process but kept the dependancy
>> issue.
> If you think using non-standard packages that put /persistent/ items in 
> non-persistent locations like /var/run in production environments is far 
> more acceptable than compiling from source because of package management 
> 'benefits' then (to me anyway) you're lazy and dangerous with critical 
> data.  My statement still stands.  Let me be clear:
>
> THIS. IS. NOT. ACCEPTABLE.
>
> The fact you'd rather bandaid a problem (in production no less) than 
> follow proper standards or compile from source to avoid said bandaid 
> would be a fire-able offense in any IT shop I've ever worked at.
>> Package managers got round (mostly) both the dependancy problem and updating
>> too. The problem with package maintainers not keeping up to date shows that
>> this still isn't perfect.
>>
>> However, if you go back to compiling from source then you lose all of these
>> benefits.
>>
>> Thankfully I do not earn my keep by watering lawns.  I do not believe that
>> this is acceptable, but by the same token I have to earn my keep and that
>> involves having working production servers and services.
>>
>> I have managed to get round this problem in the past through manually doing
>> the same function as systemd-tmpfiles. It is a small price to pay to have a
>> working, (relatively) up to date server.
> The fact you find this acceptable means you're either the only 
> 'qualified' (and even that is subject to doubt) person there, or your 
> management is too ignorant to understand the danger.  I'm sorry, but in 
> no way is this acceptable for production level servers. I'm sure, if you 
> asked 100 IT people you'd get 100 to agree with me.  Being flippant with 
> production servers is never acceptable.
>
> Of course, most people refuse to listen to logic and reason because they 
> are convinced they are right despite evidence (and best practices over 
> 40+ years of Unix) to the contrary.
>
> I'll end this by saying, I hope the production servers you have don't 
> provide critical services that could jeopardize the lives of people.  
> I'd ask who you work for, to make sure I avoid them at all costs, but 
> I'm not sure I'd be told.
>
> Again, denying 40+ years of Unix design and  best practices because 
> you're too lazy to manage compiling from source to avoid denying those 
> practices is truly one of the most astonishing things I've ever seen in 
> the 25 years I've been in IT.
>
> Then again, maybe I'm old-fashioned when I expect to do something and do 
> it right rather than half-ass it.
>
Don't know how long you have been working with UNIX but there was no /var/run 
40 years ago!
http://www.rhyshaden.com/unix.htm

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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Gary Stainburn]

On Wednesday 04 October 2017 13:39:30 Mark Haney wrote:
> I'll end this by saying, I hope the production servers you have don't
> provide critical services that could jeopardize the lives of people. 
> I'd ask who you work for, to make sure I avoid them at all costs, but
> I'm not sure I'd be told.

The company I work for, and the livelihood of the hundreds of employees depend 
on my servers. In the 30 years I've been in the industry, I've never had 
problems as you've described
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Mark Haney]

On 10/04/2017 08:22 AM, Gary Stainburn wrote:

On Wednesday 04 October 2017 12:54:44 Mark Haney wrote:

Sorry, but if you have to use packages that don't originate from CentOS
and they do that, then I wouldn't use them. Period.  I'd compile from
source before I used something configured that way.

This perspective to some extent employs cutting your nose of dispite youre
face.  Before Packages were introduced, everyone compiled from source. That
was a pain, and a long process, especially when you had dependancies that you
also had to compile.  Packages eased this process but kept the dependancy
issue.
If you think using non-standard packages that put /persistent/ items in 
non-persistent locations like /var/run in production environments is far 
more acceptable than compiling from source because of package management 
'benefits' then (to me anyway) you're lazy and dangerous with critical 
data.  My statement still stands.  Let me be clear:


THIS. IS. NOT. ACCEPTABLE.

The fact you'd rather bandaid a problem (in production no less) than 
follow proper standards or compile from source to avoid said bandaid 
would be a fire-able offense in any IT shop I've ever worked at.

Package managers got round (mostly) both the dependancy problem and updating
too. The problem with package maintainers not keeping up to date shows that
this still isn't perfect.

However, if you go back to compiling from source then you lose all of these
benefits.

Thankfully I do not earn my keep by watering lawns.  I do not believe that
this is acceptable, but by the same token I have to earn my keep and that
involves having working production servers and services.

I have managed to get round this problem in the past through manually doing
the same function as systemd-tmpfiles. It is a small price to pay to have a
working, (relatively) up to date server.
The fact you find this acceptable means you're either the only 
'qualified' (and even that is subject to doubt) person there, or your 
management is too ignorant to understand the danger.  I'm sorry, but in 
no way is this acceptable for production level servers. I'm sure, if you 
asked 100 IT people you'd get 100 to agree with me.  Being flippant with 
production servers is never acceptable.


Of course, most people refuse to listen to logic and reason because they 
are convinced they are right despite evidence (and best practices over 
40+ years of Unix) to the contrary.


I'll end this by saying, I hope the production servers you have don't 
provide critical services that could jeopardize the lives of people.  
I'd ask who you work for, to make sure I avoid them at all costs, but 
I'm not sure I'd be told.


Again, denying 40+ years of Unix design and  best practices because 
you're too lazy to manage compiling from source to avoid denying those 
practices is truly one of the most astonishing things I've ever seen in 
the 25 years I've been in IT.


Then again, maybe I'm old-fashioned when I expect to do something and do 
it right rather than half-ass it.


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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Gary Stainburn]

On Wednesday 04 October 2017 12:54:44 Mark Haney wrote:
> Sorry, but if you have to use packages that don't originate from CentOS
> and they do that, then I wouldn't use them. Period.  I'd compile from
> source before I used something configured that way.

This perspective to some extent employs cutting your nose of dispite youre 
face.  Before Packages were introduced, everyone compiled from source. That 
was a pain, and a long process, especially when you had dependancies that you 
also had to compile.  Packages eased this process but kept the dependancy 
issue.

Package managers got round (mostly) both the dependancy problem and updating 
too. The problem with package maintainers not keeping up to date shows that 
this still isn't perfect.

However, if you go back to compiling from source then you lose all of these 
benefits.

>
> Why is it so hard for people to understand that var/run IS NOT
> PERSISTENT and was never meant to be?  Do they not teach basic Unix
> concepts anymore?  If you think that setup is acceptable, I wouldn't
> hire you to water my lawn as you'd likely water the electrical box along
> with said lawn.

Thankfully I do not earn my keep by watering lawns.  I do not believe that 
this is acceptable, but by the same token I have to earn my keep and that 
involves having working production servers and services.

I have managed to get round this problem in the past through manually doing 
the same function as systemd-tmpfiles. It is a small price to pay to have a 
working, (relatively) up to date server.
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Mark Haney]

On 10/04/2017 04:23 AM, Gary Stainburn wrote:


Mark, Many Non-Centos originated packages create directories in /var/run as
part of the install, and expect them to still exist after a reboot.

They then fail when starting the service because they're trying to create a
PID / Lock file in a directory that no longer exists.  This problem has been
around ever since /var/run was moved to tmpfs.

Unfortunately, sometimes we have to use packages other than the official
Centos ones, usually as in this case because we need newer versions.

There is a solution that saves /var/run to disk at shutdown and restores it at
bootup but I can't remember what it is.
Sorry, but if you have to use packages that don't originate from CentOS 
and they do that, then I wouldn't use them. Period.  I'd compile from 
source before I used something configured that way.


Why is it so hard for people to understand that var/run IS NOT 
PERSISTENT and was never meant to be?  Do they not teach basic Unix 
concepts anymore?  If you think that setup is acceptable, I wouldn't 
hire you to water my lawn as you'd likely water the electrical box along 
with said lawn.


These are VERY VERY basic concepts.  Banging a square peg into a round 
hole, even in a test environment is a good way to get fired and become 
unemployable.  And believe me, word gets around quickly in IT circles.  
If you can't build from source to keep from using non-standard packages, 
then you really shouldn't be doing whatever it is you were hired to do.


This is extremely basic arithmetic here.  You don't do surgery with 
dirty scalpels, you don't drive without brakes, these are axiomatic just 
like /var/run isn't persistent.  It's been that way at least since I was 
in HS and college in the 80s and very very likely since the early Unix 
days.


Honestly, I feel bad for your employer if you think this is an 
acceptable way to get a system working.


There, I've said my piece. Call it a flame if you want, truth hurts and 
ignoring basic rules is a good way to hurt yourself or other people.



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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Anand Buddhdev]

On 04/10/2017 10:58, Gary Stainburn wrote:

> On Wednesday 04 October 2017 09:53:59 Gary Stainburn wrote:
>> I saw reference to system-tmpfs in Paul's post so I had a quick look. YUM
>> doesn't seem to know about it, but I'm sure Google will help.
> 
> Sorry, meant systemd-tmpfiles

On a CentOS 7 system, do:

man systemd-tmpfiles
man tmpfiles.d

Those 2 manpages together explain everything you need to know about
creating temporary files and directories in /run at boot time. If you
search google, you'll probably end up at online versions of those same
man pages.

Regards,
Anand
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Gary Stainburn]

On Wednesday 04 October 2017 09:53:59 Gary Stainburn wrote:
> I saw reference to system-tmpfs in Paul's post so I had a quick look. YUM
> doesn't seem to know about it, but I'm sure Google will help.

Sorry, meant systemd-tmpfiles
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Gary Stainburn]

On Wednesday 04 October 2017 09:42:13 Anand Buddhdev wrote:
> There's no need to do that (and it's also messy). Instead, if a package
> needs a directory to exist in /var/run, then create your own config for
> systemd-tmpfiles, and drop it into /etc/systemd/tmpfiles.d. Work with
> CentOS 7, instead of fighting with it.
>
> Anand

I saw reference to system-tmpfs in Paul's post so I had a quick look. YUM 
doesn't seem to know about it, but I'm sure Google will help.
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Anand Buddhdev]

On 04/10/2017 10:23, Gary Stainburn wrote:

Hi Gary,

> Mark, Many Non-Centos originated packages create directories in /var/run as 
> part of the install, and expect them to still exist after a reboot.

Those packages have been built poorly.

> They then fail when starting the service because they're trying to create a 
> PID / Lock file in a directory that no longer exists.  This problem has been 
> around ever since /var/run was moved to tmpfs.

Yes, and those packages should know how to work with CentOS 7.

> Unfortunately, sometimes we have to use packages other than the official 
> Centos ones, usually as in this case because we need newer versions.

Sure, that can be.

> There is a solution that saves /var/run to disk at shutdown and restores it 
> at 
> bootup but I can't remember what it is.

There's no need to do that (and it's also messy). Instead, if a package
needs a directory to exist in /var/run, then create your own config for
systemd-tmpfiles, and drop it into /etc/systemd/tmpfiles.d. Work with
CentOS 7, instead of fighting with it.

Anand
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Gary Stainburn]

On Tuesday 03 October 2017 18:24:01 Mark Haney wrote:
> What issue? That the PID is dropped on reboot?  What else are you
> putting in there?  I'm beginning to question whether you know what
> you're doing or not.  Lighttpd doesn't store any persistent info in
> /var/run/ because, like everything else, /var/run isn't for persistent
> data.

Mark, Many Non-Centos originated packages create directories in /var/run as 
part of the install, and expect them to still exist after a reboot.

They then fail when starting the service because they're trying to create a 
PID / Lock file in a directory that no longer exists.  This problem has been 
around ever since /var/run was moved to tmpfs.

Unfortunately, sometimes we have to use packages other than the official 
Centos ones, usually as in this case because we need newer versions.

There is a solution that saves /var/run to disk at shutdown and restores it at 
bootup but I can't remember what it is.
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Jonathan Billings]

On Oct 3, 2017, at 13:12, hw  wrote:
> 
> I´m using the packages from mariadb.org.  The old version that comes in
> Centos isn´t recommended, and I need features only the newer versions
> provide.
> 
> 
> Lighttpd is from epel, and it has basically the same issue.

If the mariadb.org package thinks /var/run is persistent, then it’s not 
intended for CentOS7. 

If the EPEL package did too, then there could be serious problems with that 
package. However, I see that it has a /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d/lighttpd.conf, so it 
is ok. 

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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Paul Heinlein]

On Tue, 3 Oct 2017, hw wrote:


Alexander Dalloz  writes:


Am 01.10.2017 um 17:21 schrieb hw:

Hi,

how can I prevent files/directories like /var/run/mariadb from 
being deleted on reboot?  Lighttpd has the same problem.


This breaks services and makes servers non-restartable by anyone 
else but the administrator who needs to re-create the needed files 
and directories every time and has to figure out what selinux 
labels they need.  This causes unnecessary downtimes.


This is entirely inacceptable.  This totally sucks.


On CentOS 7 machines, the /run mountpoint (available via symlink as 
/var/run) is a temporary filesystem. Try "df -h /run" to see for 
yourself. That whole directory lives in memory.


Using systemd-tmpfiles is the most reliable method for ensuring your 
/run directories are created and given correct perms at boot. The 
syntax for /etc/tmpfiles.d/*.conf isn't terribly difficult, and the 
files there are easy to manage. See the tmpfiles.d(5) man page for 
details and examples.


Once your file is in place, you can activate it without messing with 
other temp files:


systemd-tmpfiles --create /etc/tmpfiles.d/your.conf

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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Johnny Hughes]

On 10/03/2017 12:04 PM, hw wrote:
> marcos valentine  writes:
> 
>> You can try chattr?
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chattr
> 
> Wow, I never needed/used that.  Being able to make files undeletable
> might be a very useful thing ...
> 
> 

as others have mentioned, that will not WORK in this case.

The issue here is that /var/run is a tmpfs mount.  That means it is
NEVER going to survive a reboot.  It is a filesystem created in RAM at
boot time.

The design of /var/run on CentOS never needs to carry over files after a
reboot .. the purpose of /var/run is to hold the PID of a process that
starts at boot .. therefore, when you restart, there will be nothing in
there as everything is restarting.

The real question here is, what non centos thing are you trying to do
where you need to redesign the init system.



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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Mark Haney]

On 10/03/2017 01:12 PM, hw wrote:



See

https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2016/09/20/managing-temporary-files-with-systemd-tmpfiles-on-rhel7/

how to manage tmpfiles.

Thanks, I´ll look into that.  I wouldn´t consider a directory like
/var/run/mariadb in any way as only temporary --- and wouldn´t consider
directories that are required for the system to work as temporary,
either.
That directory isn't temporary.  The files almost always are, but not 
the directories.  As I said, whatever it is you're doing, it's wrong.  I 
wouldn't continue to keep a setup like that as it's not standard 
practice to keep data in /var/run that isn't temporary.


However, you seem to be insistent on doing things contrary to best 
practices so.

Curious, how did you install MariaDB that you have such a problem? The
package shipping with CentOS does not create such issue.

I´m using the packages from mariadb.org.  The old version that comes in
Centos isn´t recommended, and I need features only the newer versions
provide.


Lighttpd is from epel, and it has basically the same issue.


What issue? That the PID is dropped on reboot?  What else are you 
putting in there?  I'm beginning to question whether you know what 
you're doing or not.  Lighttpd doesn't store any persistent info in 
/var/run/ because, like everything else, /var/run isn't for persistent 
data.


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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Leroy Tennison]

chattr is a valuable but lesser-known tool, if you use it then document it 
somehow so other admins don't stumble over it.

- Original Message -
From: "hw" <h...@adminart.net>
To: "centos" <centos@centos.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 12:04:14 PM
Subject: Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being   deleted?

marcos valentine <msr.mail...@gmail.com> writes:

> You can try chattr?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chattr

Wow, I never needed/used that.  Being able to make files undeletable
might be a very useful thing ...


-- 
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[hw]

marcos valentine  writes:

> You can try chattr?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chattr

Wow, I never needed/used that.  Being able to make files undeletable
might be a very useful thing ...


-- 
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[hw]

Alexander Dalloz  writes:

> Am 01.10.2017 um 17:21 schrieb hw:
>> Hi,
>>
>> how can I prevent files/directories like /var/run/mariadb from being
>> deleted on reboot?  Lighttpd has the same problem.
>>
>> This breaks services and makes servers non-restartable by anyone else
>> but the administrator who needs to re-create the needed files and
>> directories every time and has to figure out what selinux labels they
>> need.  This causes unnecessary downtimes.
>>
>> This is entirely inacceptable.  This totally sucks.
>
> See
>
> https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2016/09/20/managing-temporary-files-with-systemd-tmpfiles-on-rhel7/
>
> how to manage tmpfiles.

Thanks, I´ll look into that.  I wouldn´t consider a directory like
/var/run/mariadb in any way as only temporary --- and wouldn´t consider
directories that are required for the system to work as temporary,
either.

> Curious, how did you install MariaDB that you have such a problem? The
> package shipping with CentOS does not create such issue.

I´m using the packages from mariadb.org.  The old version that comes in
Centos isn´t recommended, and I need features only the newer versions
provide.


Lighttpd is from epel, and it has basically the same issue.


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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Mark Haney]

On 10/01/2017 11:21 AM, hw wrote:

Hi,

how can I prevent files/directories like /var/run/mariadb from being
deleted on reboot?  Lighttpd has the same problem.

This breaks services and makes servers non-restartable by anyone else
but the administrator who needs to re-create the needed files and
directories every time and has to figure out what selinux labels they
need.  This causes unnecessary downtimes.

This is entirely inacceptable.  This totally sucks.


What did you put in there that causes such issues in the first place?  
There shouldn't be a thing in that directory except the PID of the 
running process. It stands to reason that would be emptied on restart 
since the service would be shutdown cleanly (usually) before rebooting.


If you've got stuff in there that a) you need to keep across reboots 
and/or b) data that requires root access, you're simply not doing it 
right.  Might I suggest reading up on how CentOS/RHEL's directory 
structure and what should go where?  It seems to me you're trying to put 
a square peg in a round hole and getting frustrated because it won't fit.



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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[John Hodrien]

On Mon, 2 Oct 2017, marcos valentine wrote:


You can try chattr?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chattr


I think you'll find that'd do little useful on a tmpfs volume to preserve
files across reboots.

jh
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[marcos valentine]

You can try chattr?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chattr

2017-10-01 12:26 GMT-03:00 Alexander Dalloz :

> Am 01.10.2017 um 17:21 schrieb hw:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> how can I prevent files/directories like /var/run/mariadb from being
>> deleted on reboot?  Lighttpd has the same problem.
>>
>> This breaks services and makes servers non-restartable by anyone else
>> but the administrator who needs to re-create the needed files and
>> directories every time and has to figure out what selinux labels they
>> need.  This causes unnecessary downtimes.
>>
>> This is entirely inacceptable.  This totally sucks.
>>
>
> See
>
> https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2016/09/20/managing-tempo
> rary-files-with-systemd-tmpfiles-on-rhel7/
>
> how to manage tmpfiles.
>
> Curious, how did you install MariaDB that you have such a problem? The
> package shipping with CentOS does not create such issue.
>
> Alexander
>
>
>
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Re: [CentOS] how to prevent files and directories from being deleted?

[Alexander Dalloz]

Am 01.10.2017 um 17:21 schrieb hw:

Hi,

how can I prevent files/directories like /var/run/mariadb from being
deleted on reboot?  Lighttpd has the same problem.

This breaks services and makes servers non-restartable by anyone else
but the administrator who needs to re-create the needed files and
directories every time and has to figure out what selinux labels they
need.  This causes unnecessary downtimes.

This is entirely inacceptable.  This totally sucks.


See

https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2016/09/20/managing-temporary-files-with-systemd-tmpfiles-on-rhel7/

how to manage tmpfiles.

Curious, how did you install MariaDB that you have such a problem? The 
package shipping with CentOS does not create such issue.


Alexander


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