Re: [CentOS-docs] Potential loss of a wiki contributor.
On Sat, 2009-05-09 at 11:51 +0200, Dag Wieers wrote: > > Maybe time to maintain such a public generic TODO list ? The bug-tracker > could be used for organisational/infrastructural work and discussions. I > never was a proponent to use mantis for this, but lacking something else > it might just work if we provide good views. --- Would be nice. I would like to see what's on it... JohnStanley ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Potential loss of a wiki contributor.
Dag Wieers wrote: > > Also I am very much inclined to ask on the mailinglist and forums that > everyone sends in a top-3 or a top-5 of items that the project needs to > work on to me and I will compile that into something we could discuss on a > CentOS conference or an internal IRL meeting. > > I know I do not have to ask for a permission for this, but what do others > think about this ? > I agree that an open discussion is needed about ways to improve the project. How best that happens, I'm not sure. If you feel this is the best way to facilitate that, then you get my +1 :-) ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Potential loss of a wiki contributor.
On Fri, 8 May 2009, Karanbir Singh wrote: > On 05/08/2009 05:39 PM, Dag Wieers wrote: > >> I would also like to add some links eg. where to create a login, a link to >> the archive, etc... > > Sounds good. Actually looking at that page with my 'dunce' cap on, the > page looks a bit cluttered, there might be too much info on that one > page which could also cause an issue. What does everyone think ? Should > that / Could that page be split up into smaller nuggets ? Could the info > be better organised ? I added a TableOfContents which helps a bit, however I prefer not to make seperate pages. We could move part of the Contribute-to-the-Wiki section to where we create the user. The TODO linked in the very first section is bound to be missed by most people. I think we should do a better effort in collecting items that can be improved and make it more obvious to everyone in the project that this is the page where everyone can track or suggest improvements (if they do not have the right powers). Also I am very much inclined to ask on the mailinglist and forums that everyone sends in a top-3 or a top-5 of items that the project needs to work on to me and I will compile that into something we could discuss on a CentOS conference or an internal IRL meeting. I know I do not have to ask for a permission for this, but what do others think about this ? -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Potential loss of a wiki contributor.
On Fri, 8 May 2009, Karanbir Singh wrote: > On 05/08/2009 05:39 PM, Dag Wieers wrote: > >>- If your mail arrived on the list and you did not get any response, >> contact person1 or person2 to make sure we can fix this as soon as >> possible > > I'd rather we dont do that, it creates a direct dep on a specific person > leading to the sort of issue here. I think people should be encouraged > to resend a reminder to the mailing list itself. That way its visible to > everyone and if there is a problem, there are resources that can be > brought in to handle the problem. Yes, I agree. That was my initial thought as well, but since there was an existing escalating path (AdminGroup) I thought we may wanted to keep it for the same reason. >> I would also like to add some links eg. where to create a login, a link to >> the archive, etc... > > Sounds good. Actually looking at that page with my 'dunce' cap on, the > page looks a bit cluttered, there might be too much info on that one > page which could also cause an issue. What does everyone think ? Should > that / Could that page be split up into smaller nuggets ? Could the info > be better organised ? I think we should not give too many directions on that wiki-contribution section, just the steps should suffice. And then we can add on the UserPreferences an improved section on what new users can expect and what they ought to do to get commit access. Because I expect a large part of the potential contributors just create an account on the wiki without going via the Contribute page anyhow. It makes more sense to have the bulk of instructions on that page. > btw, w.r.t subscriptions to the list, we can always just have a form > that someone fills in that does some behind-the-scenes stuff, including > subscribe the person to the list. or is that just asking for a spam > honeypot ? That would be even better, but I can live with what we have right now. Definitely put it on the project TODO list as a nice-to-have feature. Maybe time to maintain such a public generic TODO list ? The bug-tracker could be used for organisational/infrastructural work and discussions. I never was a proponent to use mantis for this, but lacking something else it might just work if we provide good views. -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Potential loss of a wiki contributor.
On 08/05/2009, Dag Wieers wrote:
> I think we need to see with our #centos IRC moderators if and what we can
> do about it. But it is obvious that not getting any response is hard to
> fix :)
>
> My personal opinion is that IRC is not the best strategy if you want a
> good reaction from the community. And my experience (on both sides of the
> fence) is that an IRC user typically wants immediate answers and often has
> unrealistic expectations. Not seldom a user left the channel before I was
> able to provide him with an answer...
>
> So google, wiki, mailinglist and forums (in that order)
Some of us would re-arrange that order -- google, wiki, fora and
mailinglist -- but each to { her | his } own. ;-)
Alan.
(Writing as Akemi's / toracat's represenative.)
___
CentOS-docs mailing list
CentOS-docs@centos.org
http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Potential loss of a wiki contributor.
On 05/08/2009 05:39 PM, Dag Wieers wrote: > In itself the process worked, although I don't know if asking the > AdminGroup is a good suggestion. We could add something like: its a horrible suggestion. Sending private emails is not something that anyone should encourage for a process solution. The misleading portion seems to be the bit that says someone from AdminGroup will get back to you, that is what would perhaps cause people to consider the shortcut and directly email. How about that line is dropped completely ? We dont need to mention who is going to be the person doing the business, anyone with admin or edit rights in the section requested could action it. How about we change the bit that says : There will be a small delay while you wait for someone from the AdminGroup to create that page and give you editing rights. This can take up to three days if requested, say, after normal working hours (European) on a Friday. to: A wiki admin will then take the required action. In most cases access will be granted right away, but in some cases the admins might request more information. Dont worry its only so we can get to know you a bit better during the process. I dont think we need a mention of either three days or the european working hours. Most of the people who contribute work outside 'normal' hours after all. And its rare that its taken many many days before access was granted. >- If your mail arrived on the list and you did not get any response, > contact person1 or person2 to make sure we can fix this as soon as > possible I'd rather we dont do that, it creates a direct dep on a specific person leading to the sort of issue here. I think people should be encouraged to resend a reminder to the mailing list itself. That way its visible to everyone and if there is a problem, there are resources that can be brought in to handle the problem. > I would also like to add some links eg. where to create a login, a link to > the archive, etc... Sounds good. Actually looking at that page with my 'dunce' cap on, the page looks a bit cluttered, there might be too much info on that one page which could also cause an issue. What does everyone think ? Should that / Could that page be split up into smaller nuggets ? Could the info be better organised ? btw, w.r.t subscriptions to the list, we can always just have a form that someone fills in that does some behind-the-scenes stuff, including subscribe the person to the list. or is that just asking for a spam honeypot ? -- Karanbir Singh : http://www.karan.org/ : 2522...@icq ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Potential loss of a wiki contributor.
On Fri, 8 May 2009, David Dreggors wrote: >>> Regarding his issues with #centos - no idea ... > > As to the #centos, just all to often seems to be a "pot luck" of weather > you even get a response there. Sometimes (quite often) when you do it is > in the form of a nasty remark followed by a not so helpful "rtfm" and no > real answer ever given. Obviously you can't control the users in the > channel but I'm just saying that it is not nice for new Linux users > looking for help to get told stop asking dumb questions and rtfm. My > point in those comments was merely to have someone re-think the advice > to go to #centos for support when this very place often alienates new users. I know you are not the only one with this remark and while we cannot control individual users, we could look at how to change the attitude and atmosphere on the channel. I think we need to see with our #centos IRC moderators if and what we can do about it. But it is obvious that not getting any response is hard to fix :) My personal opinion is that IRC is not the best strategy if you want a good reaction from the community. And my experience (on both sides of the fence) is that an IRC user typically wants immediate answers and often has unrealistic expectations. Not seldom a user left the channel before I was able to provide him with an answer... So google, wiki, mailinglist and forums (in that order) provide a much better support environmment and IRC is more for informal communication and chit-chat. I don't think we have to expect more from it. But it should never be a hostile environment. -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Potential loss of a wiki contributor.
>> I've never seen any request in here, I replied to him after Dag >> forwarded me his mail - if he doesn't see mail he gets sent, that more >> or less is not my problem. I did make the request in here initially, not sure why the list never saw it. I made that request immediately after subscribing, maybe I sent it too soon. As I stated in my email to Dag I never started getting list email until the day I emailed him. I am sorry that I missed your email Raplh, I still do not see that email in my inbox. >> Regarding his issues with #centos - no idea ... As to the #centos, just all to often seems to be a "pot luck" of weather you even get a response there. Sometimes (quite often) when you do it is in the form of a nasty remark followed by a not so helpful "rtfm" and no real answer ever given. Obviously you can't control the users in the channel but I'm just saying that it is not nice for new Linux users looking for help to get told stop asking dumb questions and rtfm. My point in those comments was merely to have someone re-think the advice to go to #centos for support when this very place often alienates new users. -- David Dreggors ddregg...@cfl.rr.com (321) 295-9131 ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Potential loss of a wiki contributor.
On Fri, 8 May 2009, Karanbir Singh wrote: > Alan Bartlett wrote: > >> Will you please check posts #17, 18 & 19 of this forum thread -- >> http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19968&start=0#forumpost76277 >> >> When you have a moment, I'm sure you will reply to it. :-) > > iirc, requesting access on this list was mandatory and not optional. > There have been moves underway to change that, but I dont recall things > changing as yet. In itself the process worked, although I don't know if asking the AdminGroup is a good suggestion. We could add something like: - If you have not received a reply after 3 days, verify in the mailinglist archive that your mail arrived on the list and see if there weren't any replies to the list. - If your mail arrived on the list and you did not get any response, contact person1 or person2 to make sure we can fix this as soon as possible to the process: http://wiki.centos.org/Contribute Would that be a better process ? Can I rewrite that section of the Wiki to make it a bit more inspirational and exciting, I hate to discourage or loose any potential contributor because the process is heavier than it ought to be. So a bit of excitement can't hurt. I would also like to add some links eg. where to create a login, a link to the archive, etc... -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Potential loss of a wiki contributor.
On 08/05/2009, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > Alan Bartlett wrote: > > Ralph, > > > > Will you please check posts #17, 18 & 19 of this forum thread -- > > > http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19968&start=0#forumpost76277 > > > > When you have a moment, I'm sure you will reply to it. :-) > > > I've never seen any request in here, I replied to him after Dag > forwarded me his mail - if he doesn't see mail he gets sent, that more > or less is not my problem. > > Regarding his issues with #centos - no idea ... > > But I replied :) Appreciated. ;-) Alan. ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Potential loss of a wiki contributor.
Alan Bartlett wrote: > Ralph, > > Will you please check posts #17, 18 & 19 of this forum thread -- > http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19968&start=0#forumpost76277 > > When you have a moment, I'm sure you will reply to it. :-) I've never seen any request in here, I replied to him after Dag forwarded me his mail - if he doesn't see mail he gets sent, that more or less is not my problem. Regarding his issues with #centos - no idea ... But I replied :) Cheers, Ralph pgpGb0AQmHDDB.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Potential loss of a wiki contributor.
Alan Bartlett wrote: > Ralph, > > Will you please check posts #17, 18 & 19 of this forum thread -- > http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19968&start=0#forumpost76277 > > When you have a moment, I'm sure you will reply to it. :-) > iirc, requesting access on this list was mandatory and not optional. There have been moves underway to change that, but I dont recall things changing as yet. - KB ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Potential loss of a wiki contributor.
Ralph, Will you please check posts #17, 18 & 19 of this forum thread -- http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19968&start=0#forumpost76277 When you have a moment, I'm sure you will reply to it. :-) Alan. ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
