Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Alan Bartlett]

On 15/07/2008, Antti J. Huhtala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ti, 2008-07-15 kello 10:01 +0100, Alan Bartlett kirjoitti:
>
> > The relevant line now reads: "Make sure that you install those rpm
> > files (as root) using either rpm -ivh kernel-*.rpm or yum localinstall
> > kernel-*."
> >
>
> Just the kind of addition I had in mind. Thank you, Alan.
>
> Success in this has built up my courage to try compiling
> other kernel versions, as well. That may generate other comments but
> I'll let you know then.


For further support in building you own custom kernels, Antti, I would
suggest you join us on the CentOS
Foraand leave this mailing list
for the discussion of the CentOS documentation .
. . ;-)

Alan.
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Antti J. Huhtala]

ti, 2008-07-15 kello 10:01 +0100, Alan Bartlett kirjoitti:
> On 14/07/2008, Antti J. Huhtala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Looks like "Custom Kernel" HowTo survived "the
> idiot test" by me. One question though: when installing the
> rpms as the
> last step (rpm -ivh kernel-*.rpm), I get "error: can't create
> transaction lock on /var/lib/rpm/_db.000". That means I should
> do it as
> root, doesn't it? Perhaps the HowTo could mention this even if
> it might
> be reasonably obvious that only root can install kernels...
> 
> Done. :-D.
> 
> The relevant line now reads: "Make sure that you install those rpm
> files (as root) using either rpm -ivh kernel-*.rpm or yum localinstall
> kernel-*."
> 
Just the kind of addition I had in mind. Thank you, Alan.
> Thank you for your careful attention to details, Antti.

> Alan.
> 
You're welcome. Success in this has built up my courage to try compiling
other kernel versions, as well. That may generate other comments but
I'll let you know then.

Antti

> 

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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Alan Bartlett]

On 14/07/2008, Antti J. Huhtala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Looks like "Custom Kernel" HowTo survived "the
> idiot test" by me. One question though: when installing the rpms as the
> last step (rpm -ivh kernel-*.rpm), I get "error: can't create
> transaction lock on /var/lib/rpm/_db.000". That means I should do it as
> root, doesn't it? Perhaps the HowTo could mention this even if it might
> be reasonably obvious that only root can install kernels...


Done. :-D.

The relevant line now reads: "Make sure that you install those rpm files (as
*root*) using either *rpm -ivh kernel-*.rpm* or *yum localinstall kernel-**
."

Thank you for your careful attention to details, Antti.

Alan.
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Antti J. Huhtala]

ma, 2008-07-14 kello 06:07 -0700, Akemi Yagi kirjoitti:

> This is most likely because you missed the step of adding the # i386
> (or #x86_64) line.  Could you check this out?
> 
> Akemi

That was it, indeed. Looks like "Custom Kernel" HowTo survived "the
idiot test" by me. One question though: when installing the rpms as the
last step (rpm -ivh kernel-*.rpm), I get "error: can't create
transaction lock on /var/lib/rpm/_db.000". That means I should do it as
root, doesn't it? Perhaps the HowTo could mention this even if it might
be reasonably obvious that only root can install kernels...

Antti


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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Antti J. Huhtala]

ma, 2008-07-14 kello 06:07 -0700, Akemi Yagi kirjoitti:
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 5:58 AM, Antti J. Huhtala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ma, 2008-07-14 kello 12:20 +0100, Alan Bartlett kirjoitti:
> 
> > Now I'm testing your "I Need to Build a Custom Kernel" HowTo. Everything
> > seems to be OK in the HowTo, even if the final build fails with an error
> > "Makefile:405: /home/andie/rpmbuild/BUILD/kernel-2.6.18/\
> > linux-2.6.18.i686/arch//Makefile: No such file or directory".
> 
> This is most likely because you missed the step of adding the # i386
> (or #x86_64) line.  Could you check this out?
> 
> Akemi

You are exactly right, Akemi, thanks. I did not add it to the
original .config because it was there already. However, after copying
the file back and forth a couple of times it seems to be missing now. So
it must be added there just before final "rpmbuild -bb ..." command? 
The "#i386" line is still in .config.old but that probably isn't very
helpful at all...
I'll try again later this evening. Thanks again!

Antti


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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Akemi Yagi]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 5:58 AM, Antti J. Huhtala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ma, 2008-07-14 kello 12:20 +0100, Alan Bartlett kirjoitti:

> Now I'm testing your "I Need to Build a Custom Kernel" HowTo. Everything
> seems to be OK in the HowTo, even if the final build fails with an error
> "Makefile:405: /home/andie/rpmbuild/BUILD/kernel-2.6.18/\
> linux-2.6.18.i686/arch//Makefile: No such file or directory".

This is most likely because you missed the step of adding the # i386
(or #x86_64) line.  Could you check this out?

Akemi
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Antti J. Huhtala]

ma, 2008-07-14 kello 12:20 +0100, Alan Bartlett kirjoitti:
> On 14/07/2008, Antti J. Huhtala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just looked at the updated "I Need the Kernel Source" HowTo
> and in my
> eyes it is now perfect. No doubt a careful person could now
> succeed in
> building the kernel tree in one go.
> 
> Thank you for kind words and very helpful feed-back, Antti. Having a
> fresh pair of eyes to look at it was very useful. There is an English
> saying that "familiarity breeds contempt". In this case, no matter how
> many times Akemi and I read that article through, we consistently
> missed those tripping-points as we were so familiar with what we were
> doing.
> 
> Alan. 
> 
Glad I could be of some help. In Finnish we have a corresponding saying
which roughly translates to: "A man is blind to his own mistakes." As
technical editor of our national ham radio magazine I know only too well
how true that is...

Now I'm testing your "I Need to Build a Custom Kernel" HowTo. Everything
seems to be OK in the HowTo, even if the final build fails with an error
"Makefile:405: /home/andie/rpmbuild/BUILD/kernel-2.6.18/\
linux-2.6.18.i686/arch//Makefile: No such file or directory".

This is no wonder considering the fact that two lines above it is
stated: "+ Arch= " and the next line reads: 
"+ make Arch= nonint_oldconfig"

It looks like an error in .config trying to write Makefile into an empty
arch directory or something similar. I assume this is not a problem in
the HowTo, however. I'll look at .config a little closer and if I can
not find the problem myself I'll write to the CentOS mailing list.

Thanks again, Alan

Antti



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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Alan Bartlett]

On 14/07/2008, Antti J. Huhtala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I just looked at the updated "I Need the Kernel Source" HowTo and in my
> eyes it is now perfect. No doubt a careful person could now succeed in
> building the kernel tree in one go.


Thank you for kind words and very helpful feed-back, Antti. Having a fresh
pair of eyes to look at it was very useful. There is an English saying that
"familiarity breeds contempt". In this case, no matter how many times Akemi
and I read that article through, we consistently missed those
tripping-points as we were so familiar with what we were doing.

Alan.
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Antti J. Huhtala]

su, 2008-07-13 kello 08:14 -0700, Akemi Yagi kirjoitti:

> But before my posting, I had already added a "back ticks" note in
> parenthesis on that wiki page.  Then Alan woke up (for people who
> don't know he is in the UK) and made it much nicer.
> 
> Akemi

I just looked at the updated "I Need the Kernel Source" HowTo and in my
eyes it is now perfect. No doubt a careful person could now succeed in
building the kernel tree in one go.

Thank you, Akemi and Alan!

Antti


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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Akemi Yagi]

On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Scott Robbins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 12:05:48PM -0400, Filipe Brandenburger wrote:
>> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 11:39 PM, Akemi Yagi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> a) In section 2.1 it is said: "[EMAIL PROTECTED] yum install rpm-build". 
>> >> To
>> >> 'yum install' something you need to be superuser (as confirmed by '#'
>> >> prompt before the command). Shouldn't the example read:
>> >> "[EMAIL PROTECTED] yum install rpm-build"?
>> >
>> > Yes, this should be root@ instead of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> Or, wouldn't this be better?
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] sudo yum install rpm-build
>
> One problem with sudo in RH based systems is that it doesn't have root's
> $PATH by default.  On my own pages, I have a page explaining this, and
> when I use sudo in a tutorial, I direct the reader who isn't clear on it
> to view that page.  (I usually use the phrase, as root or with root
> privilege.)
>
> While $PATH doesn't matter for this command, it can with others.
> If there's already a page explaining sudo on the wiki (too lazy to look
> right now) then a link to it would be sufficient, I think.

For someone lazy:

http://wiki.centos.org/TipsAndTricks/BecomingRoot#head-5a98c43bd135904d720095ff461d52aa7b51412d

Akemi
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Scott Robbins]

On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 12:05:48PM -0400, Filipe Brandenburger wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 11:39 PM, Akemi Yagi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> a) In section 2.1 it is said: "[EMAIL PROTECTED] yum install rpm-build". To
> >> 'yum install' something you need to be superuser (as confirmed by '#'
> >> prompt before the command). Shouldn't the example read:
> >> "[EMAIL PROTECTED] yum install rpm-build"?
> >
> > Yes, this should be root@ instead of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Or, wouldn't this be better?
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] sudo yum install rpm-build

One problem with sudo in RH based systems is that it doesn't have root's
$PATH by default.  On my own pages, I have a page explaining this, and
when I use sudo in a tutorial, I direct the reader who isn't clear on it
to view that page.  (I usually use the phrase, as root or with root
privilege.)

While $PATH doesn't matter for this command, it can with others.  
If there's already a page explaining sudo on the wiki (too lazy to look
right now) then a link to it would be sufficient, I think. 

Many people come to various distributions from Ubuntu, which has sudo
enabled for the main user by default. 

In CentOS's case, a user following that will get the message

 is not in the sudoers file.  This incident will be reported.  
(or something similar.).


-- 
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day. That final gasp, that look of peace. And part of you is 
desperate to know: What's it like? Where does it lead you? And 
now you see, that's the secret. Not the punch you didn't throw or
the kicks you didn't land. She really wanted it. Every Slayer has
a death wish. Even you. 
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Antti J. Huhtala]

su, 2008-07-13 kello 08:32 -0700, Akemi Yagi kirjoitti:
> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 11:24 PM, Antti J. Huhtala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > la, 2008-07-12 kello 22:02 -0700, Akemi Yagi kirjoitti:
> >> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 9:31 PM, Scott Robbins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > If there is a certain level of knowledge one must have before such
> > attempts, why give *any* advice in the form of HowTos? People really in
> > the know do not need it anyway.
> 
> This raises an interesting point by itself.  The role of CentOS Wiki
> is primarily to provide CentOS-related information or help.  In the
> case of the kernel articles, they explain how to handle the kernel
> CentOS way, and many lines in there are specific for CentOS (like URLs
> for kernel rpms).  Therefore, even Linux experts would benefit from
> them unless they are already familiar with CentOS, or more generally,
> with package-based managed systems (they tend to prefer make; make
> rpm, for example).
> 
Perhaps I was a bit playing the role of devil's advocate in raising the
question. Of course, I'm all for HowTos in general and understand that
there are OS-specific issues needing explanation no matter what level
expertise one might have.
> On the other hand, CentOS Wiki can include more general, non-CentOS
> specific help as well.   So, the question is what is the guidance here
> for writing CentOS Wiki articles with respect to CentOS "relatedness".
I for one don't mind at all if CentOS Wiki articles contain some general
*nix advice. Most of us learn by picking up things here and there, not
necessarily as a result of systematic training confined to a certain
subject. The problem is finding "proper" balance between CentOS-related
material and general *nix advice. Here newbies such as myself perhaps
may contribute their little bit...
I might add that I have both written and translated manuals of various
electronic devices during my working career. That may explain why I am
particularly interested in manuals and HowTos.
> 
> Akemi

Antti


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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Filipe Brandenburger]

On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 11:39 PM, Akemi Yagi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> a) In section 2.1 it is said: "[EMAIL PROTECTED] yum install rpm-build". To
>> 'yum install' something you need to be superuser (as confirmed by '#'
>> prompt before the command). Shouldn't the example read:
>> "[EMAIL PROTECTED] yum install rpm-build"?
>
> Yes, this should be root@ instead of [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Or, wouldn't this be better?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] sudo yum install rpm-build

Filipe
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Akemi Yagi]

On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 11:24 PM, Antti J. Huhtala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> la, 2008-07-12 kello 22:02 -0700, Akemi Yagi kirjoitti:
>> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 9:31 PM, Scott Robbins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> If there is a certain level of knowledge one must have before such
> attempts, why give *any* advice in the form of HowTos? People really in
> the know do not need it anyway.

This raises an interesting point by itself.  The role of CentOS Wiki
is primarily to provide CentOS-related information or help.  In the
case of the kernel articles, they explain how to handle the kernel
CentOS way, and many lines in there are specific for CentOS (like URLs
for kernel rpms).  Therefore, even Linux experts would benefit from
them unless they are already familiar with CentOS, or more generally,
with package-based managed systems (they tend to prefer make; make
rpm, for example).

On the other hand, CentOS Wiki can include more general, non-CentOS
specific help as well.   So, the question is what is the guidance here
for writing CentOS Wiki articles with respect to CentOS "relatedness".

Akemi
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Akemi Yagi]

On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 10:28 PM, Scott Robbins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 10:02:09PM -0700, Akemi Yagi wrote:
>> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 9:31 PM, Scott Robbins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 09:11:10PM -0700, Akemi Yagi wrote:

>> When I come to think about it, building a custom kernel is not really
>> for people who require help at that level.  Not that I am discouraging
>> it but, especially in CentOS, this kind of practice should be done by
>> those who know very well what they are doing.
>
> While I understand, I must (most respectfully) disagree in this case.
> The OP is a perfect example.  He had valid reasons for rebuilding--the
> 30 seconds it would take to add the explation in the documentation would
> have saved him far more than 30 seconds--therefore, it's a profit.  :)

I knew my comment would trigger some reactions (and I was right) :-)

But before my posting, I had already added a "back ticks" note in
parenthesis on that wiki page.  Then Alan woke up (for people who
don't know he is in the UK) and made it much nicer.

Akemi
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Antti J. Huhtala]

la, 2008-07-12 kello 22:02 -0700, Akemi Yagi kirjoitti:
> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 9:31 PM, Scott Robbins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > Perhaps then, it is worth adding a line or two explaining that these are
> > backticks, (and possible even mentioning where they are on the QWERTY
> > keyboard.)  The newcomer is often going to assume that they're single
> > quotes.
> >
> > Scott Robbins
> 
> When I come to think about it, building a custom kernel is not really
> for people who require help at that level.  Not that I am discouraging
> it but, especially in CentOS, this kind of practice should be done by
> those who know very well what they are doing.  
I respectfully beg to disagree. Though I only vaguely realized there
might be a functional difference between single quotes and backticks, is
there a RFC or something stating what every Unix/Linux user *must* know
before attempting custom kernel compilation? I think not.
If there is a certain level of knowledge one must have before such
attempts, why give *any* advice in the form of HowTos? People really in
the know do not need it anyway.
On the other hand, if some advice is given, why not make it as clear as
possible without resorting to excessive detail? In my case, it would
have been sufficient to say: "Note: The characters around `uname -m`
are 'backticks', not apostrophes."
> For one thing, they
> cannot expect official support from CentOS.  For another, they may
> well break their system.  If this sounds too harsh, I apologize.
I may be a CentOS novice but I worked as hardware-oriented data
communications consultant (VAX/VMS environment) for 18 years and I've
done a bit of programming for my own various purposes - not really
professionally, however. 
I am perfectly willing to risk breaking one kernel as long as I am also
able to return to one of supported kernels if all else fails. I cannot
speak for anyone else on this, of course.
> However, I want to add that CentOS community members do help each
> other for matters that may be outside the areas of official support by
> the CentOS team.  The CentOS forums or mailing list are there for
> everyone to participate in.
> 
Thank you for your comments, Akemi. My original post *was* about docs -
and I wrote it here on your suggestion :-)
> Akemi -- almost forgetting the fact this is the -docs mailing list...

Antti


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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Scott Robbins]

On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 10:02:09PM -0700, Akemi Yagi wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 9:31 PM, Scott Robbins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 09:11:10PM -0700, Akemi Yagi wrote:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps then, it is worth adding a line or two explaining that these are
> > backticks, (and possible even mentioning where they are on the QWERTY
> > keyboard.)  The newcomer is often going to assume that they're single
> > quotes.
> >
> > Scott Robbins
> 
> When I come to think about it, building a custom kernel is not really
> for people who require help at that level.  Not that I am discouraging
> it but, especially in CentOS, this kind of practice should be done by
> those who know very well what they are doing.  


While I understand, I must (most respectfully) disagree in this case.
The OP is a perfect example.  He had valid reasons for rebuilding--the
30 seconds it would take to add the explation in the documentation would
have saved him far more than 30 seconds--therefore, it's a profit.  :)

Whether or not he should be rebuilding a kernel at his level of
knowledge isn't for us to decide.  Instead, let's do our best to make
CentOS better than most Linux documentation.  (As someone who has used
the BSDs a great deal, I can't resist adding, "That isn't very hard.")
:)

Sure, the person building a kernel should know that.  However, suppose
that they never come across it?  Suppose, for example, that their mentors
always used the $() (and never used csh for scripting, but only for
interactive use).  

I repeat that my disagreement is made respectfully. Were we talking
Japanese, there would be many chotto's and kamoshiranai no de
gozaimasu's.  :)


However, I do feel VERY strong that much of the trouble with Linux
documentation is the lack of thought, so to speak, what I mentioned
above.  The fact that 30 seconds of writing might save many people a
great deal of time, and therefore, is effort profitably spent.  

Sore kara, nemasu.  Oyasum
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Akemi Yagi]

On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 9:31 PM, Scott Robbins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 09:11:10PM -0700, Akemi Yagi wrote:

>> There is one (minor) problem with using the $() notation.  That is, it
>> does not work in *cough* csh.  I said "minor" because (t)csh users are
>> minority.  Anyway, back ticks work regardless of the shell used.
>
> Well, I'll be darned.  You're right. (I just tried it.)
>
> As you might imagine, I've never used csh for scripts.

>> P.S. Please do not start the shell war (or c-shell bashing).  OK, Evolution?
>
> Nope, not me.  FreeBSD, FWIW, still has it as root's default shell,

Well, at my work place, a new Unix account is created with c-shell as
the default.

> Perhaps then, it is worth adding a line or two explaining that these are
> backticks, (and possible even mentioning where they are on the QWERTY
> keyboard.)  The newcomer is often going to assume that they're single
> quotes.
>
> Scott Robbins

When I come to think about it, building a custom kernel is not really
for people who require help at that level.  Not that I am discouraging
it but, especially in CentOS, this kind of practice should be done by
those who know very well what they are doing.  For one thing, they
cannot expect official support from CentOS.  For another, they may
well break their system.  If this sounds too harsh, I apologize.
However, I want to add that CentOS community members do help each
other for matters that may be outside the areas of official support by
the CentOS team.  The CentOS forums or mailing list are there for
everyone to participate in.

Akemi -- almost forgetting the fact this is the -docs mailing list...
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Scott Robbins]

On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 09:11:10PM -0700, Akemi Yagi wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 9:03 PM, Scott Robbins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 08:39:46PM -0700, Akemi Yagi wrote:
> 
> >
> > This confuses many newcomers (and old timers with bad vision if they're
> > not paying attention.)
> >
> > Is there any merit to substituting that with $().  (To the OP, original
> > poster, both the back ticks, to the left of the numeral 1 on a QWERTY
> > keyboard and putting something inside $(), e.g., $(uname -m) mean to
> > execute a command.
> >
> 
> Scott,
> 
> There is one (minor) problem with using the $() notation.  That is, it
> does not work in *cough* csh.  I said "minor" because (t)csh users are
> minority.  Anyway, back ticks work regardless of the shell used.

Well, I'll be darned.  You're right. (I just tried it.)

As you might imagine, I've never used csh for scripts.  

> 
> Akemi
> P.S. Please do not start the shell war (or c-shell bashing).  OK, Evolution?

Nope, not me.  FreeBSD, FWIW, still has it as root's default shell,

Perhaps then, it is worth adding a line or two explaining that these are
backticks, (and possible even mentioning where they are on the QWERTY
keyboard.)  The newcomer is often going to assume that they're single
quotes.


-- 
Scott Robbins
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class. 
Oz: Which could also be construed as the brain thing. 

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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Akemi Yagi]

On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 9:03 PM, Scott Robbins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 08:39:46PM -0700, Akemi Yagi wrote:

>> They are "back ticks" :-)  This is one of those things that might be
>> regarded as Unix/Linux basics (?).  It feeds the output of the command
>> inside the ticks to the shell.  In your case, `uname -m` produces i686
>> which then will be used as the parameter for the --target= option.
>
> This confuses many newcomers (and old timers with bad vision if they're
> not paying attention.)
>
> Is there any merit to substituting that with $().  (To the OP, original
> poster, both the back ticks, to the left of the numeral 1 on a QWERTY
> keyboard and putting something inside $(), e.g., $(uname -m) mean to
> execute a command.
>
> I write many pages for the beginner.  As that was a common error when
> people would read my pages, I then began making a point of explaining
> what they were.  Finally, I decided that simply using $() was easier
> than adding a sentence or two specifying that those were backticks.  :)

Scott,

There is one (minor) problem with using the $() notation.  That is, it
does not work in *cough* csh.  I said "minor" because (t)csh users are
minority.  Anyway, back ticks work regardless of the shell used.

Akemi
P.S. Please do not start the shell war (or c-shell bashing).  OK, Evolution?
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Scott Robbins]

On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 08:39:46PM -0700, Akemi Yagi wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 6:27 PM, Antti J. Huhtala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> 
> Hi Antti,
> > d) Two attempts of 'rpmbuild' perhaps failed because I inadvertently
> > used single quotes or apostrophes around 'uname -m' instead of "`"s
> > (accent grave?). 
> 
> They are "back ticks" :-)  This is one of those things that might be
> regarded as Unix/Linux basics (?).  It feeds the output of the command
> inside the ticks to the shell.  In your case, `uname -m` produces i686
> which then will be used as the parameter for the --target= option.

This confuses many newcomers (and old timers with bad vision if they're
not paying attention.)

Is there any merit to substituting that with $().  (To the OP, original
poster, both the back ticks, to the left of the numeral 1 on a QWERTY
keyboard and putting something inside $(), e.g., $(uname -m) mean to
execute a command. 

I write many pages for the beginner.  As that was a common error when
people would read my pages, I then began making a point of explaining
what they were.  Finally, I decided that simply using $() was easier
than adding a sentence or two specifying that those were backticks.  :)

-- 
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
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it's just another Tuesday night in Sunnydale. 
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Akemi Yagi]

On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 6:27 PM, Antti J. Huhtala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,

Hi Antti,

> I am a newcomer to CentOS but slightly less so to Linux in general
> (FC4-F9). In short, I am trying to make an old SB Vibra 16C (ISA) sound
> card work in Centos 5. To achieve this, support for ISA bus and ISA PnP
> is apparently needed in kernel. Therefore, a custom kernel needs to be
> built. -- Yes, I have read all the warnings of lack of support, etc.
>
> As a first step, I had to build the complete kernel tree according to "I
> Need the Kernel Source" CentOS Wiki. I tried to meticulously follow the
> directions given there but it took five or six attempts before I had a
> complete tree in ~/rpmbuild/BUILD/. Would you please consider the
> following questions in order to decide if any changes/additions are
> necessary in the article:
>
> a) In section 2.1 it is said: "[EMAIL PROTECTED] yum install rpm-build". To
> 'yum install' something you need to be superuser (as confirmed by '#'
> prompt before the command). Shouldn't the example read:
> "[EMAIL PROTECTED] yum install rpm-build"?

Yes, this should be root@ instead of [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> b) The next command on the page is "rpm -i http://mirror.centos.org...";.
> Two of my futile attempts to install the ...src.rpm were due to the fact
> that 1) I did not understand and then 2) forgot to exit from root before
> trying to install the source rpm. Shouldn't there be at least a "$"
> prompt (and perhaps the directory, too) before the 'rpm -i' command?

The [EMAIL PROTECTED] would make it clearer, yes.

> c) One attempt of 'rpmbuild' failed because "redhat-rpm-config is needed
> by kernel-2.6.18-92.1.6.el5.i686". This may not apply to everyone but it
> certainly applied to me who had only installed 5.1 in March and updated
> it to 5.2 in July by just updating when told to do so. Perhaps it would
> be advisable to add "# yum install redhat-rpm-config" to the article?

Maybe this can be added to or near the yum install rpm-build command
because both should be run as root.

> d) Two attempts of 'rpmbuild' perhaps failed because I inadvertently
> used single quotes or apostrophes around 'uname -m' instead of "`"s
> (accent grave?). The result in prep-err.log, however, was: "Building
> target platforms: uname -m" and "Building for target uname -m".
> I had to explicitly insert "i686" in the 'rpmbuild' command like this:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] SPECS]$ rpmbuild -bp --target=i686 kernel-2.6.spec 2> ...".
> If this is what the user is supposed to do anyway, perhaps it could be
> worded a little differently to make it perfectly clear? On the other
> hand, if 'accent grave' characters around 'uname -m' really work in
> replacing the proper architecture in the command, perhaps the text
> should emphasize the fact? I foolishly did not "cut-and-paste" the
> 'rpmbuild' command but wrote it myself.

They are "back ticks" :-)  This is one of those things that might be
regarded as Unix/Linux basics (?).  It feeds the output of the command
inside the ticks to the shell.  In your case, `uname -m` produces i686
which then will be used as the parameter for the --target= option.

> I realize there is another thread about these Wiki pages currently being
> discussed on centos-docs list but I thought it better to start a new
> thread.

Yes, this is a new subject, so you did it just fine.

Thank you for writing this note to share what you have noticed.  The
Wiki article shall be modified accordingly.

Akemi

> TIA, Antti
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[CentOS-docs] Suggestions on "I Need the Kernel Source" Wiki pages

[Antti J. Huhtala]

Hi all,

I am a newcomer to CentOS but slightly less so to Linux in general
(FC4-F9). In short, I am trying to make an old SB Vibra 16C (ISA) sound
card work in Centos 5. To achieve this, support for ISA bus and ISA PnP
is apparently needed in kernel. Therefore, a custom kernel needs to be
built. -- Yes, I have read all the warnings of lack of support, etc.

As a first step, I had to build the complete kernel tree according to "I
Need the Kernel Source" CentOS Wiki. I tried to meticulously follow the
directions given there but it took five or six attempts before I had a
complete tree in ~/rpmbuild/BUILD/. Would you please consider the
following questions in order to decide if any changes/additions are
necessary in the article:

a) In section 2.1 it is said: "[EMAIL PROTECTED] yum install rpm-build". To
'yum install' something you need to be superuser (as confirmed by '#'
prompt before the command). Shouldn't the example read: 
"[EMAIL PROTECTED] yum install rpm-build"?

b) The next command on the page is "rpm -i http://mirror.centos.org...";.
Two of my futile attempts to install the ...src.rpm were due to the fact
that 1) I did not understand and then 2) forgot to exit from root before
trying to install the source rpm. Shouldn't there be at least a "$"
prompt (and perhaps the directory, too) before the 'rpm -i' command?

c) One attempt of 'rpmbuild' failed because "redhat-rpm-config is needed
by kernel-2.6.18-92.1.6.el5.i686". This may not apply to everyone but it
certainly applied to me who had only installed 5.1 in March and updated
it to 5.2 in July by just updating when told to do so. Perhaps it would
be advisable to add "# yum install redhat-rpm-config" to the article?

d) Two attempts of 'rpmbuild' perhaps failed because I inadvertently
used single quotes or apostrophes around 'uname -m' instead of "`"s
(accent grave?). The result in prep-err.log, however, was: "Building
target platforms: uname -m" and "Building for target uname -m". 
I had to explicitly insert "i686" in the 'rpmbuild' command like this:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] SPECS]$ rpmbuild -bp --target=i686 kernel-2.6.spec 2> ...".
If this is what the user is supposed to do anyway, perhaps it could be
worded a little differently to make it perfectly clear? On the other
hand, if 'accent grave' characters around 'uname -m' really work in
replacing the proper architecture in the command, perhaps the text
should emphasize the fact? I foolishly did not "cut-and-paste" the
'rpmbuild' command but wrote it myself.

I realize there is another thread about these Wiki pages currently being
discussed on centos-docs list but I thought it better to start a new
thread.

TIA, Antti



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