Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:43:48PM +0100, Kris Buytaert wrote: On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 16:26 +0200, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: Both Novell and Oracle having been deeply involved in Xen lately, both are developing and supporting their own products based on Xen. Given the fact that Unbreakable is a source rebuild from RHEL, and Oracle is putting a lot of effort behind Xen , they hosted the Xen summit before, after the aquisition of Virtual Iron where they clearly defined their roadmap was Xen based, (not even including potential Xen based platforms they might get when the Sun acquisition eventually falls trough) So it looks to me that they will have to build a Dom0 based distribution anyhow. The bigger question however will be if and how this work can come back upstream and potentially be used in CentOS ? What's the idea on that ? Well.. CentOS is, and will be, 1:1 rebuild of RHEL. if Oracle is going to build their own dom0 distro, then it could be the upstream project.. -- Pasi ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt
Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 16:26 +0200, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: Both Novell and Oracle having been deeply involved in Xen lately, both are developing and supporting their own products based on Xen. Given the fact that Unbreakable is a source rebuild from RHEL, and Oracle is putting a lot of effort behind Xen , they hosted the Xen summit before, after the aquisition of Virtual Iron where they clearly defined their roadmap was Xen based, (not even including potential Xen based platforms they might get when the Sun acquisition eventually falls trough) So it looks to me that they will have to build a Dom0 based distribution anyhow. The bigger question however will be if and how this work can come back upstream and potentially be used in CentOS ? What's the idea on that ? greetigns Kris ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt
Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
Hi, Do you really think that RHEL6 will not include dom0 version ? It seems that KVM will be the favorite for redhat virtualisation but i think Xen is actually largely deployed. We have here a cluster of ten Xen centos 5.4 dom0 and i'm asking what it will become with RHEL6 if there is no more dom0 version. We think about migration from Xen to KVM but the process could be complex and i don't know if kvm will equal Xen performance for production use. Anyone as the same problem/question here. Regards Pasi Kärkkäinen a écrit : On Mon, Nov 09, 2009 at 04:45:56PM +0100, Hildebrand, Nils, 232 wrote: Hi, my local RH-salesman told me that rh6 will be based on a mix of Fedora 11/12 - so I hope for the best. Yeah, RHEL6 will be based on Fedora 12 (afaik). Also, I think RHEL6 will support running as Xen guest (PV domU), but I don't think they're going to ship dom0 with it.. I really hope they would, but I'm not holding my breath considering how much they talk about KVM.. At the moment I am stuck with SLES (currently 10) on our Dom0-servers, since it has the newer XEN-version. I would love to move to RH or CentOS with my Dom0s... Upgrade to SLES11 at least then.. I think it has Xen 3.4.1 available and 2.6.27 dom0 kernel. -- Pasi Kind regards Nils -Original Message- From: centos-virt-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-virt-boun...@centos.org] On Behalf Of Pasi Kärkkäinen Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 3:58 PM To: Discussion about the virtualization on CentOS Subject: Re: [CentOS-virt] High CPU usage when running aCentOSguestinVirtualBox On Mon, Nov 09, 2009 at 12:47:08PM +0100, Hildebrand, Nils, 232 wrote: Hi, this weekend I took a closer look at KVM. I think that the paravirtualized XEN or Hyper-V-Approach is superior to the full virtualization. PV has it's advantages.. Red Hat 6 will have XEN-Support (propably XEN 3.4 with power-consumption savings). What did you hear this? Is it a fact? -- Pasi ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt -- Frederic Soulier DSI / STAR Universite Toulouse 1 Capitole 2 RUE DU DOYEN GABRIEL MARTY 31042 TOULOUSE CEDEX 9 FRANCE Tel : +33 5 61 63 39 98 Fax : +33 5 61 63 37 98 / Bureau : AR38 bis http://dsi.univ-tlse1.fr ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt
Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
Frederic SOULIER wrote:
Hi,
Do you really think that RHEL6 will not include dom0 version ?
Yes, Xen Dom0 will be never supported from RHEL6, onlu domU ...
It seems that KVM will be the favorite for redhat virtualisation but i
think Xen is actually largely deployed.
We have here a cluster of ten Xen centos 5.4 dom0 and i'm asking what
it will become with RHEL6 if there is no more dom0 version.
Well, you have several options:
- Migrate to KVM
- Migrate to Oracle VM
- Migrate to Windows Hyper-V
- Migrate to VMware
.. or your dom0 cluster will be unsupported
We think about migration from Xen to KVM but the process could be
complex and i don't know if kvm will equal Xen performance for
production use.
Anyone as the same problem/question here.
I have do it some tests using KVM under rhel5.4 and perfromance it is very very
high
... but only for rhel5.x guests. For Windows versions or solaris/opensolaris
systems
performance is ver very poor until they released virtio drivers for these
platforms ...
Regards
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Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:11:24AM +0100, carlopmart wrote:
Frederic SOULIER wrote:
Hi,
Do you really think that RHEL6 will not include dom0 version ?
Yes, Xen Dom0 will be never supported from RHEL6, onlu domU ...
It seems that KVM will be the favorite for redhat virtualisation but i
think Xen is actually largely deployed.
We have here a cluster of ten Xen centos 5.4 dom0 and i'm asking what
it will become with RHEL6 if there is no more dom0 version.
Well, you have several options:
- Migrate to KVM
- Migrate to Oracle VM
- Migrate to Windows Hyper-V
- Migrate to VMware
Or to Citrix XenServer.
Or run your own dom0 setup.. if self-support is an option :)
Or keep running RHEL5.x on dom0, that'll be supported for a long time
still.
-- Pasi
.. or your dom0 cluster will be unsupported
We think about migration from Xen to KVM but the process could be
complex and i don't know if kvm will equal Xen performance for
production use.
Anyone as the same problem/question here.
I have do it some tests using KVM under rhel5.4 and perfromance it is very
very high
... but only for rhel5.x guests. For Windows versions or solaris/opensolaris
systems
performance is ver very poor until they released virtio drivers for these
platforms ...
Regards
--
CL Martinez
carlopmart {at} gmail {d0t} com
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Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
Correct me if i'm wrong. If rhel6 propose domU version that would say that a dom0 rhel5.X version will be able to run rhel6 domU ? Pasi Kärkkäinen a écrit : On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:39:35AM +0100, carlopmart wrote: Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:11:24AM +0100, carlopmart wrote: Frederic SOULIER wrote: Hi, Do you really think that RHEL6 will not include dom0 version ? Yes, Xen Dom0 will be never supported from RHEL6, onlu domU ... It seems that KVM will be the favorite for redhat virtualisation but i think Xen is actually largely deployed. We have here a cluster of ten Xen centos 5.4 dom0 and i'm asking what it will become with RHEL6 if there is no more dom0 version. Well, you have several options: - Migrate to KVM - Migrate to Oracle VM - Migrate to Windows Hyper-V - Migrate to VMware Or to Citrix XenServer. Or run your own dom0 setup.. if self-support is an option :) Or keep running RHEL5.x on dom0, that'll be supported for a long time still. Still it isn't official, but Citrix XenServer will disappears soon ... It will be integrated under Microsoft Hyper-V Uhm.. I don't believe this. Where did you read that? Citrix XenServer was opensourced last week, or the hypervisor+tools part, the xencenter management interface remains closed source (but it can also manage hyper-v). IMHO, it isn't a good option to maintain domO virt servers based on CentOS or RHEL now ... It is the time to migrate to another solutions ... RHEL5, with Xen, will be fully supported by Redhat until 2014. They have clearly stated that many times. -- Pasi ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt -- Frederic Soulier DSI / STAR Universite Toulouse 1 Capitole 2 RUE DU DOYEN GABRIEL MARTY 31042 TOULOUSE CEDEX 9 FRANCE Tel : +33 5 61 63 39 98 Fax : +33 5 61 63 37 98 / Bureau : AR38 bis http://dsi.univ-tlse1.fr ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt
Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:27:57AM +0100, carlopmart wrote: Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: Still it isn't official, but Citrix XenServer will disappears soon ... It will be integrated under Microsoft Hyper-V Uhm.. I don't believe this. Where did you read that? Citrix XenServer was opensourced last week, or the hypervisor+tools part, the xencenter management interface remains closed source (but it can also manage hyper-v). IMHO, it isn't a good option to maintain domO virt servers based on CentOS or RHEL now ... It is the time to migrate to another solutions ... RHEL5, with Xen, will be fully supported by Redhat until 2014. They have clearly stated that many times. -- Pasi Ok, I think I haven't explained well, sorry. Citrix Xenserver's hypervisor and tools was donated by Citrix last week, correct. But Citrix didn't release more versions of the product because it does not intend to develop it and apply new features. Citrix virtualization bussiness will be focused only on Management and Desktop virtualization using Hper-V as a first platform and second VMware. Where did you read this? You write it like it's a fact - I haven't seen that anywhere.. ?? And correct, RHEL5 Xen will be supported till 2014, but did you use a technology that upstream doesn't put the necessary resources to mantain and apply new features?? RedHat virtaulziation efforts are focused at 99% on KVM solutions, for Xen only applies security updates and nothing else. That's not true. Upcoming RHEL 5.5 will have Xen-related bugfixes as usual. -- Pasi ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt
Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:27:57AM +0100, carlopmart wrote:
Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
Still it isn't official, but Citrix XenServer will disappears soon ... It
will be
integrated under Microsoft Hyper-V
Uhm.. I don't believe this. Where did you read that?
Citrix XenServer was opensourced last week, or the hypervisor+tools
part, the xencenter management interface remains closed source (but it
can also manage hyper-v).
IMHO, it isn't a good option to maintain domO virt servers based on CentOS
or RHEL
now ... It is the time to migrate to another solutions ...
RHEL5, with Xen, will be fully supported by Redhat until 2014. They have
clearly stated that many times.
-- Pasi
Ok, I think I haven't explained well, sorry. Citrix Xenserver's hypervisor
and tools
was donated by Citrix last week, correct. But Citrix didn't release more
versions of
the product because it does not intend to develop it and apply new features.
Citrix
virtualization bussiness will be focused only on Management and Desktop
virtualization using Hper-V as a first platform and second VMware.
Where did you read this? You write it like it's a fact - I haven't seen
that anywhere.. ??
This will be announced over next weeks ...
And correct, RHEL5 Xen will be supported till 2014, but did you use a
technology
that upstream doesn't put the necessary resources to mantain and apply new
features??
RedHat virtaulziation efforts are focused at 99% on KVM solutions, for Xen
only
applies security updates and nothing else.
That's not true. Upcoming RHEL 5.5 will have Xen-related bugfixes as usual.
-- Pasi
Bugfixes and security updates only, but what about new features like XCI, RAS
fetures, etc?? Do you really think they are going to be ported by RedHat on his
xen?? I think not.
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Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 01:20:11PM +0100, carlopmart wrote: Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:27:57AM +0100, carlopmart wrote: Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: Still it isn't official, but Citrix XenServer will disappears soon ... It will be integrated under Microsoft Hyper-V Uhm.. I don't believe this. Where did you read that? Citrix XenServer was opensourced last week, or the hypervisor+tools part, the xencenter management interface remains closed source (but it can also manage hyper-v). IMHO, it isn't a good option to maintain domO virt servers based on CentOS or RHEL now ... It is the time to migrate to another solutions ... RHEL5, with Xen, will be fully supported by Redhat until 2014. They have clearly stated that many times. -- Pasi Ok, I think I haven't explained well, sorry. Citrix Xenserver's hypervisor and tools was donated by Citrix last week, correct. But Citrix didn't release more versions of the product because it does not intend to develop it and apply new features. Citrix virtualization bussiness will be focused only on Management and Desktop virtualization using Hper-V as a first platform and second VMware. Where did you read this? You write it like it's a fact - I haven't seen that anywhere.. ?? This will be announced over next weeks ... Again, are you speculating, or is this a fact? I think Citrix XenServer 5.7 will be released soon :) And correct, RHEL5 Xen will be supported till 2014, but did you use a technology that upstream doesn't put the necessary resources to mantain and apply new features?? RedHat virtaulziation efforts are focused at 99% on KVM solutions, for Xen only applies security updates and nothing else. That's not true. Upcoming RHEL 5.5 will have Xen-related bugfixes as usual. -- Pasi Bugfixes and security updates only, but what about new features like XCI, RAS fetures, etc?? Do you really think they are going to be ported by RedHat on his xen?? I think not. XCI has nothing to do with using Xen on servers. And yes, big new features most probably won't be ported to RHEL5. RHEL5 will be transferred to 'maintenance' mode after a while.. the feature that are there now will be there in the future aswell. Btw. the earlier list of options didn't list Novell SLES11.. it has pretty good implementation of Xen aswell (Xen 3.4.1 + 2.6.27 dom0 kernel). -- Pasi ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt
Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 01:20:11PM +0100, carlopmart wrote:
Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:27:57AM +0100, carlopmart wrote:
Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
Still it isn't official, but Citrix XenServer will disappears soon ...
It will be
integrated under Microsoft Hyper-V
Uhm.. I don't believe this. Where did you read that?
Citrix XenServer was opensourced last week, or the hypervisor+tools
part, the xencenter management interface remains closed source (but it
can also manage hyper-v).
IMHO, it isn't a good option to maintain domO virt servers based on
CentOS or RHEL
now ... It is the time to migrate to another solutions ...
RHEL5, with Xen, will be fully supported by Redhat until 2014. They have
clearly stated that many times.
-- Pasi
Ok, I think I haven't explained well, sorry. Citrix Xenserver's hypervisor
and tools
was donated by Citrix last week, correct. But Citrix didn't release more
versions of
the product because it does not intend to develop it and apply new
features. Citrix
virtualization bussiness will be focused only on Management and Desktop
virtualization using Hper-V as a first platform and second VMware.
Where did you read this? You write it like it's a fact - I haven't seen
that anywhere.. ??
This will be announced over next weeks ...
Again, are you speculating, or is this a fact? I think Citrix XenServer 5.7
will be released soon :)
Ok, stay and wait. But I repeat: Citrix will focused his efforts only on
Management
and Desktop virtualization, not on servers. First past it is do it: donate
xenserver
to opesource community.
And correct, RHEL5 Xen will be supported till 2014, but did you use a
technology
that upstream doesn't put the necessary resources to mantain and apply new
features??
RedHat virtaulziation efforts are focused at 99% on KVM solutions, for Xen
only
applies security updates and nothing else.
That's not true. Upcoming RHEL 5.5 will have Xen-related bugfixes as usual.
-- Pasi
Bugfixes and security updates only, but what about new features like XCI,
RAS
fetures, etc?? Do you really think they are going to be ported by RedHat on
his
xen?? I think not.
XCI has nothing to do with using Xen on servers. And yes, big new
features most probably won't be ported to RHEL5.
RHEL5 will be transferred to 'maintenance' mode after a while.. the
feature that are there now will be there in the future aswell.
Btw. the earlier list of options didn't list Novell SLES11.. it has
pretty good implementation of Xen aswell (Xen 3.4.1 + 2.6.27 dom0 kernel).
-- Pasi
I have a serious doubts about Novell and Oracle will do about Xen. We need to
wait ...
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Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 4:36 AM, carlopmart carlopm...@gmail.com wrote: Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 01:20:11PM +0100, carlopmart wrote: Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:27:57AM +0100, carlopmart wrote: Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: Still it isn't official, but Citrix XenServer will disappears soon ... It will be integrated under Microsoft Hyper-V Uhm.. I don't believe this. Where did you read that? Citrix XenServer was opensourced last week, or the hypervisor+tools part, the xencenter management interface remains closed source (but it can also manage hyper-v). IMHO, it isn't a good option to maintain domO virt servers based on CentOS or RHEL now ... It is the time to migrate to another solutions ... RHEL5, with Xen, will be fully supported by Redhat until 2014. They have clearly stated that many times. -- Pasi Ok, I think I haven't explained well, sorry. Citrix Xenserver's hypervisor and tools was donated by Citrix last week, correct. But Citrix didn't release more versions of the product because it does not intend to develop it and apply new features. Citrix virtualization bussiness will be focused only on Management and Desktop virtualization using Hper-V as a first platform and second VMware. Where did you read this? You write it like it's a fact - I haven't seen that anywhere.. ?? This will be announced over next weeks ... Again, are you speculating, or is this a fact? I think Citrix XenServer 5.7 will be released soon :) Ok, stay and wait. But I repeat: Citrix will focused his efforts only on Management and Desktop virtualization, not on servers. First past it is do it: donate xenserver to opesource community. If this is true it will not only be the death of Xen but of Citrix as well. I don't see a company surviving that only makes a gui to manage someone else's VM solution. I think Microsoft is capable of making their own GUI. I do think that we should probably just give up on getting xen in the kernel for Dom0. It's clear that the kernel guys will never let this happen. Xen may very well become a distribution providing a Dom0. The DomU stuff is already in the kernel so a very light distribution that only provides networking tools, security tools and the Dom0 code would be fine for those who want to continue using Xen. I've not been convinced that KVM is quite ready to do what Xen does. I use it but not for production. Grant McWilliams Some people, when confronted with a problem, think I know, I'll use Windows. Now they have two problems. ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt
Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 05:01:46AM -0800, Grant McWilliams wrote: On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 4:36 AM, carlopmart [1]carlopm...@gmail.com wrote: Pasi KÀrkkÀinen wrote: On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 01:20:11PM +0100, carlopmart wrote: Pasi KÀrkkÀinen wrote: On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:27:57AM +0100, carlopmart wrote: Pasi KÀrkkÀinen wrote: Still it isn't official, but Citrix XenServer will disappears soon ... It will be integrated under Microsoft Hyper-V Uhm.. I don't believe this. Where did you read that? Citrix XenServer was opensourced last week, or the hypervisor+tools part, the xencenter management interface remains closed source (but it can also manage hyper-v). IMHO, it isn't a good option to maintain domO virt servers based on CentOS or RHEL now ... It is the time to migrate to another solutions ... RHEL5, with Xen, will be fully supported by Redhat until 2014. They have clearly stated that many times. -- Pasi Ok, I think I haven't explained well, sorry. Citrix Xenserver's hypervisor and tools was donated by Citrix last week, correct. But Citrix didn't release more versions of the product because it does not intend to develop it and apply new features. Citrix virtualization bussiness will be focused only on Management and Desktop virtualization using Hper-V as a first platform and second VMware. Where did you read this? You write it like it's a fact - I haven't seen that anywhere.. ?? This will be announced over next weeks ... Again, are you speculating, or is this a fact? I think Citrix XenServer 5.7 will be released soon :) Ok, stay and wait. But I repeat: Citrix will focused his efforts only on Management and Desktop virtualization, not on servers. First past it is do it: donate xenserver to opesource community. If this is true it will not only be the death of Xen but of Citrix as well. I don't see a company surviving that only makes a gui to manage someone else's VM solution. I think Microsoft is capable of making their own GUI. I think that was just speculation. It doesn't make much sense to me. Time will show :) I do think that we should probably just give up on getting xen in the kernel for Dom0. It's clear that the kernel guys will never let this happen. Xen _hypervisor_ doesn't need to be in the kernel - that's the whole point. Xen hypervisor is external piece, maintained (and updated) separately from the dom0 kernel. pv_ops Xen dom0 kernel patches are currently in the process of being cleaned up to be acceptable for upstream inclusion. That has taken longer than originally thought, ie. more changes had to be done after the previous attempt of upstreaming. Jeremy will have a talk about pv_ops dom0 status and plans this month at Xen Summit (in China, at Intel's facility). http://blog.xen.org/index.php/2009/11/04/xen-summit-asia-2009-event-information-released/ Xen may very well become a distribution providing a Dom0. The DomU stuff is already in the kernel so a very light distribution that only provides networking tools, security tools and the Dom0 code would be fine for those who want to continue using Xen. I've not been convinced that KVM is quite ready to do what Xen does. I use it but not for production. The newly opensourced XenServer could be developed to be something like this.. There's also a recent project to develop web management interface for XenServer: http://blog.xen.org/index.php/2009/11/09/project-xvp/ -- Pasi ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt
Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 03:49:59PM +0100, Dennis J. wrote: On 11/10/2009 03:35 PM, Grant McWilliams wrote: Both Novell and Oracle having been deeply involved in Xen lately, both are developing and supporting their own products based on Xen. -- Pasi ___ I have no problem with a better solution than Xen because to be honest it's a pain sometimes but at this point virtually all enterprise VM deployments are either based on VMware ESX or Xen (Xenserver, VirtualIron, Amazon AWS, Oracle, Sun SVM, Redhat and Suse). This tide will change as KVM becomes more dominant in the VM space but I don't see that happening for a while. I'm also a bit skeptical as to how well a fully virtualized system (KVM) will run in comparison to a fully paravirtualized system (Xen PV). I have a system with 41 VMs on it and I'll be having 2 weeks of planned downtime in the near future. I'd like to see how these systems run under KVM. I've been wondering about the definition of PV in the context of KVM/Xen. In the Linux on Linux case for Xen PV practically means that in the HVM case I have to access block devices using /dev/hda while in the PV case I can use the faster /dev/xvda. When using KVM which apparently only supports HVM I can still install a guest using the virtio drivers which seem to do the same as the paravirtualized devices on Xen. So what is the KVM+virtio case if not paravirtualization? KVM+virtio means you're using paravirtualized disk/net drivers on a fully virtualized guest.. where Qemu emulates full PC hardware with BIOS and all. So only the disk/net virtio drivers bypass Qemu emulation. (Those are the most important and most used devices.) Xen paravirtualized guests run natively on Xen, there's no need for emulation since the guest kernels are aware that they're being virtualized.. There's no Qemu emulating PC hardware with BIOS for PV guests. -- Pasi ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt
Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 05:12:50PM +0200, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 03:49:59PM +0100, Dennis J. wrote: On 11/10/2009 03:35 PM, Grant McWilliams wrote: Both Novell and Oracle having been deeply involved in Xen lately, both are developing and supporting their own products based on Xen. -- Pasi ___ I have no problem with a better solution than Xen because to be honest it's a pain sometimes but at this point virtually all enterprise VM deployments are either based on VMware ESX or Xen (Xenserver, VirtualIron, Amazon AWS, Oracle, Sun SVM, Redhat and Suse). This tide will change as KVM becomes more dominant in the VM space but I don't see that happening for a while. I'm also a bit skeptical as to how well a fully virtualized system (KVM) will run in comparison to a fully paravirtualized system (Xen PV). I have a system with 41 VMs on it and I'll be having 2 weeks of planned downtime in the near future. I'd like to see how these systems run under KVM. I've been wondering about the definition of PV in the context of KVM/Xen. In the Linux on Linux case for Xen PV practically means that in the HVM case I have to access block devices using /dev/hda while in the PV case I can use the faster /dev/xvda. When using KVM which apparently only supports HVM I can still install a guest using the virtio drivers which seem to do the same as the paravirtualized devices on Xen. So what is the KVM+virtio case if not paravirtualization? KVM+virtio means you're using paravirtualized disk/net drivers on a fully virtualized guest.. where Qemu emulates full PC hardware with BIOS and all. So only the disk/net virtio drivers bypass Qemu emulation. (Those are the most important and most used devices.) Xen paravirtualized guests run natively on Xen, there's no need for emulation since the guest kernels are aware that they're being virtualized.. There's no Qemu emulating PC hardware with BIOS for PV guests. Oh, and Xen also has PV-on-HVM drivers for HVM fully virtualized guests to bypass Qemu :) -- Pasi ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt
Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
On 11/10/2009 04:13 PM, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 05:12:50PM +0200, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 03:49:59PM +0100, Dennis J. wrote: On 11/10/2009 03:35 PM, Grant McWilliams wrote: Both Novell and Oracle having been deeply involved in Xen lately, both are developing and supporting their own products based on Xen. -- Pasi ___ I have no problem with a better solution than Xen because to be honest it's a pain sometimes but at this point virtually all enterprise VM deployments are either based on VMware ESX or Xen (Xenserver, VirtualIron, Amazon AWS, Oracle, Sun SVM, Redhat and Suse). This tide will change as KVM becomes more dominant in the VM space but I don't see that happening for a while. I'm also a bit skeptical as to how well a fully virtualized system (KVM) will run in comparison to a fully paravirtualized system (Xen PV). I have a system with 41 VMs on it and I'll be having 2 weeks of planned downtime in the near future. I'd like to see how these systems run under KVM. I've been wondering about the definition of PV in the context of KVM/Xen. In the Linux on Linux case for Xen PV practically means that in the HVM case I have to access block devices using /dev/hda while in the PV case I can use the faster /dev/xvda. When using KVM which apparently only supports HVM I can still install a guest using the virtio drivers which seem to do the same as the paravirtualized devices on Xen. So what is the KVM+virtio case if not paravirtualization? KVM+virtio means you're using paravirtualized disk/net drivers on a fully virtualized guest.. where Qemu emulates full PC hardware with BIOS and all. So only the disk/net virtio drivers bypass Qemu emulation. (Those are the most important and most used devices.) Xen paravirtualized guests run natively on Xen, there's no need for emulation since the guest kernels are aware that they're being virtualized.. There's no Qemu emulating PC hardware with BIOS for PV guests. Oh, and Xen also has PV-on-HVM drivers for HVM fully virtualized guests to bypass Qemu :) Which I guess makes describing a guest as fully virtualized or paravirtualized rather pointless given that there now is just a degree of how paravirtualized a guest is depending on the drivers you use. Regards, Dennis ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt
Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
Which I guess makes describing a guest as fully virtualized or paravirtualized rather pointless given that there now is just a degree of how paravirtualized a guest is depending on the drivers you use. Regards, Dennis I disagree completely. KVM or Xen HVM are fully virtualized except for two drivers. This is not the same thing as paravirtualized. People seem to think the only thing a computer does is access the disk and network device. With a PV everything is running native and the only overhead is from the Hypervisor. In a most cases using the VT bits in the CPU makes the virtualization slower in all aspects. This may not be the case in the future. The developers of VirtualBox have documented this. Grant McWilliams Some people, when confronted with a problem, think I know, I'll use Windows. Now they have two problems. ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt
Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 07:49:01AM -0800, Grant McWilliams wrote: Which I guess makes describing a guest as fully virtualized or paravirtualized rather pointless given that there now is just a degree of how paravirtualized a guest is depending on the drivers you use. Regards, Â Dennis I disagree completely. KVM or Xen HVM are fully virtualized except for two drivers. This is not the same thing as paravirtualized. People seem to think the only thing a computer does is access the disk and network device. With a PV everything is running native and the only overhead is from the Hypervisor. In a most cases using the VT bits in the CPU makes the virtualization slower in all aspects. This may not be the case in the future. The developers of VirtualBox have documented this. Yeah.. Xen paravirtualized mmu is fast, and in some (many) cases beats CPU hardware virtualized mmu. KVM has 'pvmmu' aswell, but it's not as good, so KVM is faster with CPU hardware virtualization. But that's a problem of KVM only, they haven't managed to optimize the pvmmu. And they're going to drop it altogether. KVM people tend to say 'paravirtualized mmu is slow', but they just mean KVM implementation of it sucks :) -- Pasi ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt
Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:36:39PM +0200, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 01:52:36PM -0500, Scott McClanahan wrote: Yeah.. Xen paravirtualized mmu is fast, and in some (many) cases beats CPU hardware virtualized mmu. KVM has 'pvmmu' aswell, but it's not as good, so KVM is faster with CPU hardware virtualization. But that's a problem of KVM only, they haven't managed to optimize the pvmmu. And they're going to drop it altogether. KVM people tend to say 'paravirtualized mmu is slow', but they just mean KVM implementation of it sucks :) -- Pasi I haven't tested or seen any benchmarks but I wonder how much the addition of a page table for virtualized guests will help. Not to mention newer features like a virtualized task priority register and ASID could continue to require less paravirt code in the guest. I get my two new 5500 series servers in a few weeks so I'm pretty excited to see some of the second gen hardware virtualization assist features in action. I don't know. Of course hardware will add features and get more optimized in the future. Some benchmarks from IBM guys, Xen vs. KVM: http://www.spinics.net/lists/kvm/msg13910.html http://www.spinics.net/lists/kvm/msg14068.html http://www.spinics.net/lists/kvm/msg21913.html And forgot this one: http://www.spinics.net/lists/kvm/msg16579.html -- Pasi Quotes: So, KVM requires 66.93/52.85 = 26.6% more CPU to do the same amount of work. If we normalize to CPU utilization, Xen is doing 20% more throughput. KVM running Windows VMs uses 46% more CPU than the Other-Hypervisor A different hypervisor was compared; KVM used about 60% more CPU cycles to complete the same amount of work. I bet KVM will catch up at some point.. at the moment it seems to not perform as good as Xen. Then again it's a much younger product. ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt
Re: [CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: Quotes: So, KVM requires 66.93/52.85 = 26.6% more CPU to do the same amount of work. If we normalize to CPU utilization, Xen is doing 20% more throughput. KVM running Windows VMs uses 46% more CPU than the Other-Hypervisor A different hypervisor was compared; KVM used about 60% more CPU cycles to complete the same amount of work. Funny they saying Other-Hypervisor or A different hypervisor. Saying KVM uses about 60% more CPU cycles to complete the same amount of work than Xen would probably make an Slashdot headline. ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt
[CentOS-virt] XEN and RH 6
Hi, my local RH-salesman told me that rh6 will be based on a mix of Fedora 11/12 - so I hope for the best. At the moment I am stuck with SLES (currently 10) on our Dom0-servers, since it has the newer XEN-version. I would love to move to RH or CentOS with my Dom0s... Kind regards Nils -Original Message- From: centos-virt-boun...@centos.org [mailto:centos-virt-boun...@centos.org] On Behalf Of Pasi Kärkkäinen Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 3:58 PM To: Discussion about the virtualization on CentOS Subject: Re: [CentOS-virt] High CPU usage when running aCentOSguestinVirtualBox On Mon, Nov 09, 2009 at 12:47:08PM +0100, Hildebrand, Nils, 232 wrote: Hi, this weekend I took a closer look at KVM. I think that the paravirtualized XEN or Hyper-V-Approach is superior to the full virtualization. PV has it's advantages.. Red Hat 6 will have XEN-Support (propably XEN 3.4 with power-consumption savings). What did you hear this? Is it a fact? -- Pasi ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt ___ CentOS-virt mailing list CentOS-virt@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-virt
