Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] some good bloat related stuff on the ICCRG agenda, IETF #86 Tuesday, March 12 2013, 13:00-15:00, room Caribbean 6
Two of the tests in my model based metrics draft (for IPPM) are for AQM (like) tests. One we have pretty good theory for (preventing standing queues in congestion avoidance) and the other we don't (exiting from slowstart at a reasonable window). See: draft-mathis-ippm-model-based-metrics-01.txt My intent is that these tests will become part of a future IPPM standard on what a network must do in order to support modern applications at specific performance levels. Although the draft will not specify AQM algorithms at all, it will forbid some non-AQM behaviors such as unreasonable standing queues. To the extent that it gets traction as a standard, it will strongly encourage deployment, even if we are not totally convinced that our current AQM algorithms are 100% correct. However, It is not clear that we need to standardize AQM - It strikes me as one area where we can permit pretty much unfettered diversity in the operational Internet as long as it meets a pretty low it seems to work bar. For this reason it is important to deploy your favorite algorithm(s) ASAP, because they are all infinitely better than none, and future improvements will be relatively minor by comparison. Thanks, --MM-- The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Alan Kay Privacy matters! We know from recent events that people are using our services to speak in defiance of unjust governments. We treat privacy and security as matters of life and death, because for some users, they are. On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 10:47 AM, dpr...@reed.com wrote: A small suggestion. Instead of working on *algorithms*, focus on getting something actually *deployed* to fix the very real issues that we have today (preserving the option to upgrade later if need be). The folks who built the Internet (I was there, as you probably know) focused on making stuff that worked and interoperated, not publishing papers or RFCs. -Original Message- From: Wesley Eddy w...@mti-systems.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 1:11pm To: Dave Taht dave.t...@gmail.com Cc: bloat-annou...@lists.bufferbloat.net, Martin Stiemerling martin.stiemerl...@neclab.eu, cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net, bloat bl...@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] some good bloat related stuff on the ICCRG agenda, IETF #86 Tuesday, March 12 2013, 13:00-15:00, room Caribbean 6 On 2/28/2013 10:53 AM, Dave Taht wrote: For those that don't attend ietf meetings in person, there is usually live audio and jabber chat hooked up into the presentations. See y'all there, next month, in one form or another. In the TSVAREA meeting, we've also set aside some time to talk about AQM and whether there's interest and energy to do some more specific work on AQM algs in the IETF (e.g. like CoDel and PIE): https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/86/agenda/tsvarea I'm working with Martin on some slides to seed the discussion, but we hope that it's mostly the community that we hear from, following up in the higher-bandwidth face-to-face time from the thread we had on the tsv-a...@ietf.org mailing list a few months ago. -- Wes Eddy MTI Systems ___ Cerowrt-devel mailing list Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ___ Bloat mailing list bl...@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat ___ Cerowrt-devel mailing list Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] some good bloat related stuff on the ICCRG agenda, IETF #86 Tuesday, March 12 2013, 13:00-15:00, room Caribbean 6
On 2/28/2013 2:55 PM, Matt Mathis wrote: Two of the tests in my model based metrics draft (for IPPM) are for AQM (like) tests. One we have pretty good theory for (preventing standing queues in congestion avoidance) and the other we don't (exiting from slowstart at a reasonable window). See: draft-mathis-ippm-model-based-metrics-01.txt My intent is that these tests will become part of a future IPPM standard on what a network must do in order to support modern applications at specific performance levels. Although the draft will not specify AQM algorithms at all, it will forbid some non-AQM behaviors such as unreasonable standing queues. To the extent that it gets traction as a standard, it will strongly encourage deployment, even if we are not totally convinced that our current AQM algorithms are 100% correct. I like the idea. However, It is not clear that we need to standardize AQM - It strikes me as one area where we can permit pretty much unfettered diversity in the operational Internet as long as it meets a pretty low it seems to work bar. Fully agreed! Publishing specs is only useful to get some known-good algorithm(s) that folks can safely implement without thinking too hard, and also to burn off any possible ambiguities in the descriptions of the algorithms, catch any corner cases, etc. For this reason it is important to deploy your favorite algorithm(s) ASAP, because they are all infinitely better than none, and future improvements will be relatively minor by comparison. Agreed, with the caveat that not *all* conceivable algorithms are good :). One of the things I think might be useful rather than (or in addition to) specifying algorithms, is specifying test setups or metrics that allow any algorithm to be checked for sanity, as a black box. -- Wes Eddy MTI Systems ___ Cerowrt-devel mailing list Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] some good bloat related stuff on the ICCRG agenda, IETF #86 Tuesday, March 12 2013, 13:00-15:00, room Caribbean 6
On 2/28/2013 10:53 AM, Dave Taht wrote: For those that don't attend ietf meetings in person, there is usually live audio and jabber chat hooked up into the presentations. See y'all there, next month, in one form or another. In the TSVAREA meeting, we've also set aside some time to talk about AQM and whether there's interest and energy to do some more specific work on AQM algs in the IETF (e.g. like CoDel and PIE): https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/86/agenda/tsvarea I'm working with Martin on some slides to seed the discussion, but we hope that it's mostly the community that we hear from, following up in the higher-bandwidth face-to-face time from the thread we had on the tsv-a...@ietf.org mailing list a few months ago. -- Wes Eddy MTI Systems ___ Cerowrt-devel mailing list Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] some good bloat related stuff on the ICCRG agenda, IETF #86 Tuesday, March 12 2013, 13:00-15:00, room Caribbean 6
A small suggestion. Instead of working on *algorithms*, focus on getting something actually *deployed* to fix the very real issues that we have today (preserving the option to upgrade later if need be). The folks who built the Internet (I was there, as you probably know) focused on making stuff that worked and interoperated, not publishing papers or RFCs. -Original Message- From: Wesley Eddy w...@mti-systems.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 1:11pm To: Dave Taht dave.t...@gmail.com Cc: bloat-annou...@lists.bufferbloat.net, Martin Stiemerling martin.stiemerl...@neclab.eu, cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net, bloat bl...@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] [Bloat] some good bloat related stuff on the ICCRG agenda, IETF #86 Tuesday, March 12 2013, 13:00-15:00, room Caribbean 6 On 2/28/2013 10:53 AM, Dave Taht wrote: For those that don't attend ietf meetings in person, there is usually live audio and jabber chat hooked up into the presentations. See y'all there, next month, in one form or another. In the TSVAREA meeting, we've also set aside some time to talk about AQM and whether there's interest and energy to do some more specific work on AQM algs in the IETF (e.g. like CoDel and PIE): https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/86/agenda/tsvarea I'm working with Martin on some slides to seed the discussion, but we hope that it's mostly the community that we hear from, following up in the higher-bandwidth face-to-face time from the thread we had on the tsv-a...@ietf.org mailing list a few months ago. -- Wes Eddy MTI Systems ___ Cerowrt-devel mailing list Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel___ Cerowrt-devel mailing list Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
