Re: Does this seem really low?
I like how it specifies that you will not be able to support yourself on this income, so if you are a homemaker looking for income to supplement the income made by your spouse (and you just happen to have three years of AS) or you have an existing part-time job that does support you (and you think you get paid way too much for that job), we want you! I really like how the URL at the end refuses connections. On 7/4/05, Aaron Rouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: By reading that job posting, ANY benifit would be considered decent. I know what walmart offers is a lot better than the nothing I get right now. On 7/4/05, Adam Haskell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Decent benifits and Walmart don't go together... Adam H On 7/3/05, Aaron Rouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are some jobs with Walmart that pay more than $10/hr and offer some decent benifits and take very little brain thought. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2713 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Does this seem really low?
Well I guess if I was a homemaker just looking for something to do and just happened to have the AS experience then I'd do it. Now if my wife would just get that high paying stable job so I can retire then I'd be applying :) On 7/5/05, Jennifer Larkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like how it specifies that you will not be able to support yourself on this income, so if you are a homemaker looking for income to supplement the income made by your spouse (and you just happen to have three years of AS) or you have an existing part-time job that does support you (and you think you get paid way too much for that job), we want you! I really like how the URL at the end refuses connections. On 7/4/05, Aaron Rouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: By reading that job posting, ANY benifit would be considered decent. I know what walmart offers is a lot better than the nothing I get right now. On 7/4/05, Adam Haskell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Decent benifits and Walmart don't go together... Adam H On 7/3/05, Aaron Rouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are some jobs with Walmart that pay more than $10/hr and offer some decent benifits and take very little brain thought. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2714 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Contracts for work
It is important what state (or country) you are in because in some states there are rights that you are legally unable to sign away in a contract. This may include the ability to collect money owed for work done under contract. However, if they do screw you out of money, good luck trying to collect. I currently have a legal judgement against a former employer who refused to pay me because their client refused to pay them. In California, this is not legal and they have been smacked with some heavy fines. However, no collections agency will work for people. We offerred them half of what they collect, and we are each owed over $15,000. (There are 5 of us.) Since the company also refused to pay the legal judgement, we had to sign our judgement rights over to the state tax board. In the meantime, the client (the City of SF) sued my former employer for bribery and false invoicing, which is why they had refused to pay the invoices on my work while agreeing that I had completed those hours to their satisfaction. They lost standing in the case so now they are suing every entity that this former employer owes money to. SInce I have a legal judgement against them, that means that I'm being sued, but since I have no rights to the money and other parties to the case are fortune 500 companies, no lawyer will take my case. Keep in mind, that this legal situation has been going on for over two years and I was an employee of this company, giving me more rights than you might have as a contractor. I would avoid this company like the plague. Even if they were willing to take out the offensive clauses, if they fail to pay you and you have a legal course of action to recover, you may not be able to find a lawyer to take your case. One thing that really stuck out to me about the terms of the contract is the clause about their client not paying them. There are companies that do projects on a trial basis. They will build a prototype website and if the client likes it, they may purchase it. However, the work is done without ever having a contract with the client that says that the client will pay them anything. In addition to the concerns already brought up, I would be concerned that the company is intending to do this kind of work. If they believe that the contract clause with you states that they don't pay you if they don't get paid, they can make you do all sorts of work that they don't expect you to get paid for. I have never had direct dealings with a company like that that employed contractors, but I have had several potential clients expect me to work that way because they had worked that way with some company before. I did work for a company once that did free test designs. We would design something and send it to the client and if they liked it, they would pay us to implement it. However, that company did turn out to be scary and bad and I was glad to get out. It sounds like they either plan to screw you over or they are testing the waters to see what they can get away with. Either way, they clearly would not value you as a contractor. Unless you can except working for no pay and getting into a potential legal quagmire, I would run away screaming. Of course, there are times when even that is better than doing nothing. If you are desperate enough, the chance that you'll get paid is a reasonable bet for a short period of time. If you did decide to take the job out of sheer desperation, you should bail the first time they fail to pay you. On 7/3/05, Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd walk if you were unable to negotiate that out. I know that hard to do, though. Alternatives to the situation are: 1) Ask for a non-refundable advance (I mentioned that below). From your perspective the bigger the better. Giving monthly billing, I might ask for two weeks up-front. Advance is creditable to the last invoice of the project. 2) Ask if their client is willing to co-sign the contract. What you're really looking for is someone to sue in case you don't get paid. Talk to a lawyer in this case to make sure you are covered. Of course, spelling errors in the contract might be a major red flag, but it depends on the type of errors. I found that sometimes Lawyer speak confuses both spell checker and grammar checker. At 01:42 PM 7/3/2005, you wrote: Yes, all that's in there too.. Not to mention there are tons of spelling errors.. not that I'm so good at spelling also but you'd think they would at least run a spell checker on a contract. Mark Holm I'm jumping in late, but... At 10:26 AM 7/2/2005, you wrote: This is extremely common in subcontracting situations. I've lost jobs because I've refused to sign such contracts. Other things I've seen, which are less offensive are: We can terminate at any time. Once we notify you of termination, we are not responsible for paying you anything for work done after that notification Any work not done up to
RE: Does this seem really low?
Or a student who happened to start learning at a very early age and just needs something to pad their resume. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2718 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Contracts for work
Actually, the reason that my legal judgement was as large as it was is that I was an employee. My case went to the state labor board but the subcontractors were locked out of that option because they were not employees and who knows why else. Anyway, because I was able to go through the labor board, I did not *have* to get an attorney, while the subcontractors did. The subcontractors are also getting sued and they are in better shape in the second case because they hired their lawyer collectively before the second case started. They were already suing for wages in another venue. That has been going on for two years. Had they not had a lawyer in the related case, I doubt they would have been able to find a lawyer either. No lawyer wants to have a conflict of interest with the rest of the parties to the case. Their lawyer would have a conflict of interest anyway, so it's not in his interest to drop them as clients. Because I was an employee, I did not have to sue and I did not have a lawyer. I was able to use an alternate regulatory compliance track. Having been a contractor could technically give me a stronger legal position, but being an employee gave me automatic government assistance. In fact, there is still some question about what the heck is going on, but it seems that the state tax board may have filed a lien on my behalf in order to collect my labor board judgement. However, in this case, it sounds like the company is looking for excuses to not pay and regardless of the strength of your legal position, you still have to worry about your legal position. It doesn't matter what any contract says, they can refuse to pay you even if it's not legal for them to do so. Being an employee doesn't matter either-- they can still refuse to pay you. It will cost lots of time, effort, and money to collect any money owed and it is simply not worth it to most of the people in this case (there are, I think 17 employees and contractors involved). My problem with the contract isn't the terms of the contract, but the implications of it. If they are already looking for ways to get out of paying you for work that you have completed to their specifications, you can't trust them. You need to decide up front what you will do in the event of not getting paid and determine what course of action is worthwhile. Then expect to not get paid and budget that in. Any time they pay you it will be like a happy bonus. Maybe you'll find that they really are trustworthy and you can slack a bit but I would probably stay concerned the entire time I worked for them. On 7/5/05, Louis Mezo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I know, you're usually in a stronger legal position to collect as a contractor, rather than as an employee. Generally, in any State, the courts favor the little guy, that is, the sub-contractor, provided they didn't agree to something (in any legal document) that would absolve the prime contractor from their obligation. Depending on the State, it is true that even if you had signed something you shouldn't have, it may still be considered unenforceable under the State's contract law. -- My mind is a scary place. The Tick Now blogging http://www.blivit.org/blog/index.cfm http://www.blivit.org/mr_urc/index.cfm?sectionid=2 ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2720 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Does this seem really low?
True, although from what I recall they wanted the person to be available for a lot of hours per week. Almost too many for a student if I am remembering the number right. On 7/5/05, Connie DeCinko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or a student who happened to start learning at a very early age and just needs something to pad their resume. They demanded 20-60 hrs... so in other words we can't guarantee that we'll have enough work for you to live on -- but we expect you to guarantee that you'll be available (sitting around doing nothing important or certainly nothing else paid) for well more than the amount of time you would spend at a full-time job. These people have apparently smoked so much crack that you might be able to get a high just from breathing in the smell of their perspiration. s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2721 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Does this seem really low?
Well from reading the original post, they say that they require 20 hours per week, while you can work up to 60 if you wish. So they don't demand 60 hours, just 20. I have a feeling that whoever works on this kind of arrangement either doesn't know what they're doing very well and therefore probably deserves $10 an hour, or are pretty adept at it, and can complete the task fairly quickly and just end up charging the company 60 hours a week when they probably work only half that or less. It seems a little dishonest, but paying $10 an hour for us based flash work is ridiculous. Russ -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 5:26 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Does this seem really low? True, although from what I recall they wanted the person to be available for a lot of hours per week. Almost too many for a student if I am remembering the number right. On 7/5/05, Connie DeCinko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or a student who happened to start learning at a very early age and just needs something to pad their resume. They demanded 20-60 hrs... so in other words we can't guarantee that we'll have enough work for you to live on -- but we expect you to guarantee that you'll be available (sitting around doing nothing important or certainly nothing else paid) for well more than the amount of time you would spend at a full-time job. These people have apparently smoked so much crack that you might be able to get a high just from breathing in the smell of their perspiration. s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2722 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Does this seem really low?
Ahh... my mistake... still... I was approached recently by an overseas company advertising CF work (and similar) for $15/hr ... German I think... I don't remember for certain... but if I'm paying someone in an overseas country with a depressed economy and significantly lower cost of living $15, I can't see paying someone locally $10 with what it looked like they were expecting in terms of skills. An intern maybe, but that's a whole other ball-game, and I'd expect them to use the word intern in their add if that's what they want... Well from reading the original post, they say that they require 20 hours per week, while you can work up to 60 if you wish. So they don't demand 60 hours, just 20. I have a feeling that whoever works on this kind of arrangement either doesn't know what they're doing very well and therefore probably deserves $10 an hour, or are pretty adept at it, and can complete the task fairly quickly and just end up charging the company 60 hours a week when they probably work only half that or less. It seems a little dishonest, but paying $10 an hour for us based flash work is ridiculous. s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2723 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Does this seem really low?
I don't know... Back when I was just learning things I was thinking I would rather get paid nothing and learn a new computer skill then do some mindless job like working at Dunkin Donuts. I don't know if someone with 3 years of experience should be getting paid $10 an hour, but like you said, it could be a good experience for an intern... -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 6:12 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: Does this seem really low? 3 years experience using Flash ActionScript. They must be looking for an intern. I was doing some work of this type in College. I was getting paid $20 per program and I was ecstatic. The programs were simple file parsing programs and I could write one in a couple hours, so I probably made about $10 an hour. At the time it was better than alternatives. Today, I'd rather work as a cashier at the local Dunkin' Donuts for $12 an hour. At 06:11 PM 7/5/2005, you wrote: Ahh... my mistake... still... I was approached recently by an overseas company advertising CF work (and similar) for $15/hr ... German I think... I don't remember for certain... but if I'm paying someone in an overseas country with a depressed economy and significantly lower cost of living $15, I can't see paying someone locally $10 with what it looked like they were expecting in terms of skills. An intern maybe, but that's a whole other ball-game, and I'd expect them to use the word intern in their add if that's what they want... Well from reading the original post, they say that they require 20 hours per week, while you can work up to 60 if you wish. So they don't demand 60 hours, just 20. I have a feeling that whoever works on this kind of arrangement either doesn't know what they're doing very well and therefore probably deserves $10 an hour, or are pretty adept at it, and can complete the task fairly quickly and just end up charging the company 60 hours a week when they probably work only half that or less. It seems a little dishonest, but paying $10 an hour for us based flash work is ridiculous. s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2725 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
