RE: Dead Beat Clients.
What about Freelancers Union? I've seen their ads, but haven't really done research on them. Looks like they have advocacy and insurance plans as at least a few of the things they offer. www.freelancersunion.org Russ -Original Message- From: Vincent Cannady [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 1:21 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Dead Beat Clients. Ok Some other Members need to do more research than others. There is just one Union out there for us right now http://www.washtech.org Here is an excerpt of their mission statement- check out their web page WashTech/CWA is the nation's leading union for high-tech workers, ensuring that our voices get heard and our needs are met. Today, job security, health care, retirement plans, offshore outsourcing and visas are on our minds more than ever. From Silicon Valley to Boston, high-tech workers are joining our national network-to raise our voice and make a difference. Now it is time for you to join our movement. Our Accomplishments: Offshore Outsourcing: Offshore outsourcing has become our top priority, and our efforts are paying off. The Seattle Times has called WashTech, the technology union leading the national fight against offshoring. From tech workers around the country we raised enough money to take an ad out in the New York Times, highlighting the offshore outsourcing issue and demanding Congress take action. Legislation: We are fighting for legislation that protects workers at both the federal and state levels. At the federal level: * We are fighting for reforms in the H-1b and L-1 visa issues. * We are asking that Trade Act Adjustment Assistance be extended to service sector employees. * We are also helping get legislation introduced that would demand transparency from corporations that are exporting jobs by providing workers with notification of the shift. * We convinced Congress to ask the GAO to study the trend of offshore outsourcing and its impact on the high-tech economy. So Steve, I do a lot of research on things that I say before I say, I do not post about things that I have not verified. WashTech has been to Washington Lobbying for us. The do in fact help with taxes, liability, healthcare issues, or transferring jobs overseas. So Sir please do not say things which you do not know to be untrue simply because I said them. You need to look things up. I was not a fan of Unions but after 5 years in the SEIU I learned to love them. What ever you call the Organization - Programmers Guild, Union, Association; the simple matter is we need some sort or organization. But as I mentioned in my previous post the only thing we can agree on is to NOT agree on anything. And your post proves just that. As I mentioned in previous post if you don't want to hear or read these things simply UNSUBSCRIBE from the list and your frustrations would be over! Ok, this is going to sound very gruff, but certain people need to do a LOT more research when they post here. Unions do not deal with taxes, liability, healthcare issues, or transferring jobs overseas. They do deal with employee rights and collective bargaining in the specific context of handling relataionships between employees and employers. Unions do not handle contract-specific relationships since the definition of that relationship is spelled out in the contract. Excerpt from NUW.ORG The primary purpose of a union is to maintain and advance the wage rates and working conditions of members, and to defend and promote a fair and safe working environment. When you say we simply are taught and trained to accept abuse, I'd like to know what your source is for that statement. I certainly was not taught that, and no one ever trained me to accept abuse. I was taught and trained to have a lawyer draw up a solid contract for every engagement, and in the case of non-payment, have said lawyer assist me in filing a claim against the offending party. All said, a Union is not practical, nor wise in the situation described in this overlong thread (that I am contributing to out of frustration). A professional organization, not unlike a Bar Association, would be the best solution in that it would clearly define the criteria to which a member must adhere, the training required, and provide resources and networking for new members. If you don't belong to the, let's say, the Byte Association, then a reputable client would most likely avoid you like the plague. Likewise, non-members would not have the resources available to them to get the good clients. In the end, you wind up with the deadbeat clients working with the deadbeat contractors. They would deserve each other. Excerpts from ABANET.ORG Welcome to the American Bar Association, the largest voluntary professional association in the world. With more than 400,000 members, the ABA provides law
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
The BAR Association is not a union ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_association ), it's a professional organization. I believe it is designed to help the customer not the lawyer. When a lawyer I had hired took over six months to return the unused portion of a retainer, I was able to leverage his BAR Association affiliation to help address the issue. The AAMA appears to have nothing to do with doctors ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAMA ). Did you mistyped the American Medical Association (AMA)? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Medical_Association ). I thought it was a lobbying group, not a union. The wikipedia entry seems to confirm this. I know nothing about the SEIU, although it does appear to be a union ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEIU ). If I read through the Wikipedia entry on Labor Unions ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Union ), it talks about how Unions negotiate with **employers** on behalf of the union members (AKA Employees). This confirms my belief that such a group would be useless in a customer vendor relationship. Maybe ya'll should look into the IEEE? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE ). It is a professional organization for engineers and programmers. I believe there is a lobbying piece to it. However, as a current member, I don't plan to renew as I felt there was no benefit to membership. Their publication for programmers Computer has some interesting stuff in there, but a lot of it is high level theory and has little relation to the daily grind of programming. Vincent Cannady wrote: I mean lawyers have the BAR Association, Doctors have the AAMA, Chambermaids have the SEIU. -- Jeffry Houser, Technical Entrepreneur, Software Developer, Author, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Podcast: http://www.theflexshow.com My Blog: http://www.jeffryhouser.com ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3640 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Dead Beat Clients.
Ok, this is going to sound very gruff, but certain people need to do a LOT more research when they post here. Unions do not deal with taxes, liability, healthcare issues, or transferring jobs overseas. They do deal with employee rights and collective bargaining in the specific context of handling relataionships between employees and employers. Unions do not handle contract-specific relationships since the definition of that relationship is spelled out in the contract. Excerpt from NUW.ORG The primary purpose of a union is to maintain and advance the wage rates and working conditions of members, and to defend and promote a fair and safe working environment. When you say we simply are taught and trained to accept abuse, I'd like to know what your source is for that statement. I certainly was not taught that, and no one ever trained me to accept abuse. I was taught and trained to have a lawyer draw up a solid contract for every engagement, and in the case of non-payment, have said lawyer assist me in filing a claim against the offending party. All said, a Union is not practical, nor wise in the situation described in this overlong thread (that I am contributing to out of frustration). A professional organization, not unlike a Bar Association, would be the best solution in that it would clearly define the criteria to which a member must adhere, the training required, and provide resources and networking for new members. If you don't belong to the, let's say, the Byte Association, then a reputable client would most likely avoid you like the plague. Likewise, non-members would not have the resources available to them to get the good clients. In the end, you wind up with the deadbeat clients working with the deadbeat contractors. They would deserve each other. Excerpts from ABANET.ORG Welcome to the American Bar Association, the largest voluntary professional association in the world. With more than 400,000 members, the ABA provides law school accreditation, continuing legal education, information about the law, programs to assist lawyers and judges in their work, and initiatives to improve the legal system for the public. The Mission of the American Bar Association is to be the national representative of the legal profession, serving the public and the profession by promoting justice, professional excellence and respect for the law. -Original Message- From: Vincent Cannady [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 7:44 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Dead Beat Clients. Hi Jeff, Here is how a Union could help us all. Number- the Unions deal with Government Issues such as the ones we are talking about a. Taxes b. liability c. healthcare d. Transferring jobs overseas e. Employee Rights f. Collective Bargaining Even if you own your own company they could be a wealth of Resources a. Training b. Access 1,000,000 Liability Insurance c. Network of Programmers d. UNLIKE THIS SITE they could name DEADBEAT CLIENTS who don't pay (upon your request) As Issac mentioned in his post we simply are taught and trained to accept abuse and another thing I think he is right about is the low rate gives people a low expectation of your skills. So how do we win, charging clients up front runs many good clients away because they too have been burned by our unscrupulous lot who have found it easier to ask for money and do no work Not asking for money up front leaves you being owed one months pay and trying to find money to pay your light bill and ISP, because nine out of tenpay the first check but nothing afterwards Suing just takes time,money, and effort Not working leaves you broke We are a disenfranchised lot who argue amongst ourselves we cannot even find common ground to deal with clients who don't pay, some cannot stand the thought of a Union, even the owners of this site tells us what we moan about and if we do they take down our posts. I find our lack organization to be the one reason employers (contract or otherwise) can get away with the things that they do, I mean lawyers have the BAR Association, Doctors have the AAMA, Chambermaids have the SEIU. We have nothing and are treated just like that.Maybe the other guy who said stop programming is right. Maybe our lack of vision says something about us. Maybe we are so logical we are stupid. I do not know but every time someone on this site posts something that cold help us all , all we do is try to take them down instead of support them. Maybe just maybe we deserve what we get if we blame serial non payers on other programmers instead of this lousy system! I thought unions dealt with employer-employee relationships; whereas this thread has been dealing with company - vendor relationships. Am I wrong in that? I can't imagine how a programmer's union would help me. Jerry Johnson wrote: ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
Vincent, I take exception to this comment because it is really posted out of true ignorance: even the owners of this site tells us what we moan about and if we do they take down our posts. We take down posts that are libelous and inflammatory and really, in many cases, cannot be proven beyond rhetoric. We do not censor posts coming in, but when posts hit the archive, we have the choice of what to remove or not. We've let a lot of stuff go. It is extremely rare that we actually delete something. Can you name a post that we've deleted recently, or was it simply moved from CF-Jobs to CF-Jobs-Talk? Yes, we've deleted the root post from this thread simply because not only is it libelous, we don't even think it's from a human being. Judith Dinowitz ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3643 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
Ok Some other Members need to do more research than others. There is just one Union out there for us right now http://www.washtech.org Here is an excerpt of their mission statement- check out their web page WashTech/CWA is the nation's leading union for high-tech workers, ensuring that our voices get heard and our needs are met. Today, job security, health care, retirement plans, offshore outsourcing and visas are on our minds more than ever. From Silicon Valley to Boston, high-tech workers are joining our national network-to raise our voice and make a difference. Now it is time for you to join our movement. Our Accomplishments: Offshore Outsourcing: Offshore outsourcing has become our top priority, and our efforts are paying off. The Seattle Times has called WashTech, the technology union leading the national fight against offshoring. From tech workers around the country we raised enough money to take an ad out in the New York Times, highlighting the offshore outsourcing issue and demanding Congress take action. Legislation: We are fighting for legislation that protects workers at both the federal and state levels. At the federal level: * We are fighting for reforms in the H-1b and L-1 visa issues. * We are asking that Trade Act Adjustment Assistance be extended to service sector employees. * We are also helping get legislation introduced that would demand transparency from corporations that are exporting jobs by providing workers with notification of the shift. * We convinced Congress to ask the GAO to study the trend of offshore outsourcing and its impact on the high-tech economy. So Steve, I do a lot of research on things that I say before I say, I do not post about things that I have not verified. WashTech has been to Washington Lobbying for us. The do in fact help with taxes, liability, healthcare issues, or transferring jobs overseas. So Sir please do not say things which you do not know to be untrue simply because I said them. You need to look things up. I was not a fan of Unions but after 5 years in the SEIU I learned to love them. What ever you call the Organization - Programmers Guild, Union, Association; the simple matter is we need some sort or organization. But as I mentioned in my previous post the only thing we can agree on is to NOT agree on anything. And your post proves just that. As I mentioned in previous post if you don't want to hear or read these things simply UNSUBSCRIBE from the list and your frustrations would be over! Ok, this is going to sound very gruff, but certain people need to do a LOT more research when they post here. Unions do not deal with taxes, liability, healthcare issues, or transferring jobs overseas. They do deal with employee rights and collective bargaining in the specific context of handling relataionships between employees and employers. Unions do not handle contract-specific relationships since the definition of that relationship is spelled out in the contract. Excerpt from NUW.ORG The primary purpose of a union is to maintain and advance the wage rates and working conditions of members, and to defend and promote a fair and safe working environment. When you say we simply are taught and trained to accept abuse, I'd like to know what your source is for that statement. I certainly was not taught that, and no one ever trained me to accept abuse. I was taught and trained to have a lawyer draw up a solid contract for every engagement, and in the case of non-payment, have said lawyer assist me in filing a claim against the offending party. All said, a Union is not practical, nor wise in the situation described in this overlong thread (that I am contributing to out of frustration). A professional organization, not unlike a Bar Association, would be the best solution in that it would clearly define the criteria to which a member must adhere, the training required, and provide resources and networking for new members. If you don't belong to the, let's say, the Byte Association, then a reputable client would most likely avoid you like the plague. Likewise, non-members would not have the resources available to them to get the good clients. In the end, you wind up with the deadbeat clients working with the deadbeat contractors. They would deserve each other. Excerpts from ABANET.ORG Welcome to the American Bar Association, the largest voluntary professional association in the world. With more than 400,000 members, the ABA provides law school accreditation, continuing legal education, information about the law, programs to assist lawyers and judges in their work, and initiatives to improve the legal system for the public. The Mission of the American Bar Association is to be the national representative of the legal profession, serving the public and the profession by promoting justice, professional excellence and respect for the law. Hi Jeff, Here is how a Union could help us all. Number- the Unions
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
Steve I did not miss the points you made the first one was that I did not do my research and the second one was that Unions did not deal with Taxes, Liability, or even Off Shoring our jobs. Maybe you missed point , that instead of jumping onme you should be figuring out a way for all of us to come together instead of te petty bickering I have complained about before. No wonder employers of people on this site think they can get away with paying we do not do anything to stop them including telling others who are about to be cheated of of their labor yet again Vince, your continual ability to miss the point amazes me. You are still comparing apples to oranges. That Union is for employed technology workers, not contractors. This thread starting with someone complaining that they didn't get paid by a certain list of clients on contract jobs. I addressed that issue by stating that it is not the mission of Unions to deal with contract relationships. Now you bring up the Local 37083 which, as I pointed out in my message, deals with the relationship between employers and employees. Ok Some other Members need to do more research than others. There is just one Union out there for us right now http://www.washtech.org Here is an excerpt of their mission statement- check out their web page WashTech/CWA is the nation's leading union for high-tech workers, ensuring that our voices get heard and our needs are met. Today, job security, health care, retirement plans, offshore outsourcing and visas are on our minds more than ever. From Silicon Valley to Boston, high-tech workers are joining our national network-to raise our voice and make a difference. Now it is time for you to join our movement. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3650 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
If the original post was a general one then it would not be a problem but it 'naming names' made it one, especially as one of those names is on the list. It looked all the world like an attack from a false face. On Feb 4, 2008 1:02 PM, Matt Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 4, 2008 11:26 AM, Michael Dinowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While this thread has evolved into a useful discussion, it's original premise is one that is not only inflammatory but possibly libelous. The problem is that it was probably posted by a sock puppet account as my emails to angry housewife have not resulted in any reply (though it'll probably result in a reply to this thread). For this reason, the base post will be removed from the archive and the threading will be reset to reflect the removal. I'll also be looking into the source of the account to see who it's a sock puppet for. Should not be a problem. Probably a good idea Michael. It is interesting that the original angry housewife post said it isn't libelous, but obviously wanted to be anonymous. Things that make you say hmmm. -- Matt Williams It's the question that drives us. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3645 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
On Feb 4, 2008 11:26 AM, Michael Dinowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While this thread has evolved into a useful discussion, it's original premise is one that is not only inflammatory but possibly libelous. The problem is that it was probably posted by a sock puppet account as my emails to angry housewife have not resulted in any reply (though it'll probably result in a reply to this thread). For this reason, the base post will be removed from the archive and the threading will be reset to reflect the removal. I'll also be looking into the source of the account to see who it's a sock puppet for. Should not be a problem. Probably a good idea Michael. It is interesting that the original angry housewife post said it isn't libelous, but obviously wanted to be anonymous. Things that make you say hmmm. -- Matt Williams It's the question that drives us. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3644 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
While this thread has evolved into a useful discussion, it's original premise is one that is not only inflammatory but possibly libelous. The problem is that it was probably posted by a sock puppet account as my emails to angry housewife have not resulted in any reply (though it'll probably result in a reply to this thread). For this reason, the base post will be removed from the archive and the threading will be reset to reflect the removal. I'll also be looking into the source of the account to see who it's a sock puppet for. Should not be a problem. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3642 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
Honestly, I'm not sure of all specifics, however I do know that [in CT] IT services are taxed (1%), but web development services are exempt from that tax. Sales tax (such as in a retail store) is taxed at a different rate (6%). An accountant would be able to expand on specifics in your state. s. isaac dealey wrote: In fact, I'm probably treated a bit better because in Connecticut, web development services are exempt from sales tax, which is one less headache I have to deal with. I thought sales tax only applied to product. Am I like way out of touch? -- Jeffry Houser, Technical Entrepreneur, Software Developer, Author, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Podcast: http://www.theflexshow.com My Blog: http://www.jeffryhouser.com ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3639 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
Judith, Well I simply must say when someone used MY NAME IN A NEGATIVE Post it went on for 31 posts and no one removed it. I took offense at that, even when I repeatedly asked to have the post taken down it went on and on. I was talking from personal experience, as for the original poster, I know his wife he too has been ripped off it was his experiences that lead his wife to post this after talking with my wife. His wife read all of the posts about and myself and determined to put a stop to us(all programmers being ripped off) why is it when I said I took offense to what was being said about me that nothing was done. We all have the same rights. All we want is a voice to be heard. Vincent, I take exception to this comment because it is really posted out of true ignorance: even the owners of this site tells us what we moan about and if we do they take down our posts. We take down posts that are libelous and inflammatory and really, in many cases, cannot be proven beyond rhetoric. We do not censor posts coming in, but when posts hit the archive, we have the choice of what to remove or not. We've let a lot of stuff go. It is extremely rare that we actually delete something. Can you name a post that we've deleted recently, or was it simply moved from CF-Jobs to CF-Jobs-Talk? Yes, we've deleted the root post from this thread simply because not only is it libelous, we don't even think it's from a human being. Judith Dinowitz ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3646 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
On Feb 2, 2008 6:55 PM, angry housewife [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have watched my husband work very hard for three or four contracts in the last six months where he has only been paid ten percent of his total invoiced hours. My husband never signs a contract where the work has to be completed before he is paid, yet every client of his who has not paid uses this as an excuse not to pay because the work or project is not completed. The only work my husband ever seems to get paid in full for is for work done on-site. I'm sorry, but this really sounds like bad business not on the part of the client, but on your husband's part. If the same client did not pay several different contractors, they are probably at fault. If the same contractor doesn't get paid by several different clients, he is probably at fault. Yes there are deadbeat clients out there. Perhaps a list would be helpful. But maybe your husband doesn't need instead of a list of clients to avoid. Maybe he needs some training / help in drafting contracts and dealing with said dead-beat clients. I've done very little on contract myself, but if I ever started, I would seek some help from someone more experienced first. Someone like Jeff Houser on this list generally has the best advice and has experience with clients of all types. He has been burned, but has not come here bitching and moaning and wanting to name names. He figures out what went wrong and tries to fix it for future clients. Your husband (and yourself) would do well to do the same. And / Or hire someone to train / help you learn how to deal with the past problems. If such a deadbeat list were to exist, I may look at it as a reference to beware of. But I'm not likely to accept it as gospel that the client will not pay. I would have to question the contractor who put the name there in the first place. Did they really deliver what the client asked for? What kind of communication did he have with the client? Etcetera, etcetera. I know that there are 2 sides to every story. Simply putting a client name on a list is very one-sided. Just my 2 cents. -- Matt Williams It's the question that drives us. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3622 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
Hi Matt, From what I read you have never had many contracts but I can vouch for what Angry Housewife says that I too have been paid when I go client locations to work but when I am up at three o clock in the morning doing work and submit for those hours I never seem to get paid even if I email or IM the client at that time. I have worked in the Contracts Department of companies like Sprint and Cingular and I have seen them get burned and have to resort to Suing to get their money back so again I have to disagree with you about negotiations. A Contract is a contract; here are the three ways you can break a contract per the UCC -Uniform Code of Commerce #1 Incapacity- Mentally Unfit to make a contract #2 Age - To young to be making a contract #3 Breach of contract - One party or another did not complete part of contract So in our case it is almost always number three either the developer did not do ANYWORK (or they signed a completed project contract) or the Client Breached the Contract by not paying Here is the one I find funny- A Client that breeches the contract usually wants to hold you (the Consultant) to a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) meaning no contact with his or her end client after they terminated your services even though they have not paid you. Ok. So Jeff has some experience with this so have I, I have worked for two different Law Enforcement Agencies, Two Different Court Houses in two different States, I have friends who are lawyers. I am an expert in Contract Law. And I always look up clients on WWW.PACER.GOV (Federal DISTRICT Court Houses Case Party Index) yet I too get burned so UNLIKE you I do not consider getting burned me not KNOWING how to negotiate. I was my School Debate Champion and have won lawsuits again Fortune 500 Companies representing myself (pro se). The list she talks about is needed. She also has another point no one has picked up on, What about us HAVING A UNION. The all contracts would go thru the Union anynone not paying would be sued by the Union. Programmer would not need to come up with $2000 just to get back $2500. Instead they could pay 120 a year or $10 a Month to belong to a National Technology Workers Union that would have attorneys on staff would could deal with this mess, I think that until that day comes along we should have this list and if the Clients want a list of Bad Programmers they had better pay one of US to create IT! Just my $10,000! On Feb 2, 2008 6:55 PM, angry housewife [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have watched my husband work very hard for three or four contracts in the last six months where he has only been paid ten percent of his total invoiced hours. My husband never signs a contract where the work has to be completed before he is paid, yet every client of his who has not paid uses this as an excuse not to pay because the work or project is not completed. The only work my husband ever seems to get paid in full for is for work done on-site. I'm sorry, but this really sounds like bad business not on the part of the client, but on your husband's part. If the same client did not pay several different contractors, they are probably at fault. If the same contractor doesn't get paid by several different clients, he is probably at fault. Yes there are deadbeat clients out there. Perhaps a list would be helpful. But maybe your husband doesn't need instead of a list of clients to avoid. Maybe he needs some training / help in drafting contracts and dealing with said dead-beat clients. I've done very little on contract myself, but if I ever started, I would seek some help from someone more experienced first. Someone like Jeff Houser on this list generally has the best advice and has experience with clients of all types. He has been burned, but has not come here bitching and moaning and wanting to name names. He figures out what went wrong and tries to fix it for future clients. Your husband (and yourself) would do well to do the same. And / Or hire someone to train / help you learn how to deal with the past problems. If such a deadbeat list were to exist, I may look at it as a reference to beware of. But I'm not likely to accept it as gospel that the client will not pay. I would have to question the contractor who put the name there in the first place. Did they really deliver what the client asked for? What kind of communication did he have with the client? Etcetera, etcetera. I know that there are 2 sides to every story. Simply putting a client name on a list is very one-sided. Just my 2 cents. -- Matt Williams It's the question that drives us. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid
RE: Dead Beat Clients.
I agree that having a union would be good for working with dead beat clients as well as with obtaining good contracts, but a union should go further. To a client, a union has become the essence of 'good training'. Would we have an apprentice system? Would we develop 'union programming standards'? I think that having a union is a step in the right direction, but it is a long road to get there. Maybe we can have a poll to see how many people would support it. In the mean time I would suggest that everyone have access to a lawyer or a lawyer system (pre-paid legal). This way you can have a lawyer draft a letter when you aren't paid, and you can have your 'basic' contract reviewed. Regarding contracts. Does anyone have any contract examples that have worked well that they would share with the rest of us? William -- William E. Seiter Have you ever read a book that changed your life? Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com Enter passkey: goldengrove Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer http://William.Seiter.com -Original Message- From: Vincent Cannady [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 10:10 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Dead Beat Clients. Hi Matt, From what I read you have never had many contracts but I can vouch for what Angry Housewife says that I too have been paid when I go client locations to work but when I am up at three o clock in the morning doing work and submit for those hours I never seem to get paid even if I email or IM the client at that time. I have worked in the Contracts Department of companies like Sprint and Cingular and I have seen them get burned and have to resort to Suing to get their money back so again I have to disagree with you about negotiations. A Contract is a contract; here are the three ways you can break a contract per the UCC -Uniform Code of Commerce #1 Incapacity- Mentally Unfit to make a contract #2 Age - To young to be making a contract #3 Breach of contract - One party or another did not complete part of contract So in our case it is almost always number three either the developer did not do ANYWORK (or they signed a completed project contract) or the Client Breached the Contract by not paying Here is the one I find funny- A Client that breeches the contract usually wants to hold you (the Consultant) to a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) meaning no contact with his or her end client after they terminated your services even though they have not paid you. Ok. So Jeff has some experience with this so have I, I have worked for two different Law Enforcement Agencies, Two Different Court Houses in two different States, I have friends who are lawyers. I am an expert in Contract Law. And I always look up clients on WWW.PACER.GOV (Federal DISTRICT Court Houses Case Party Index) yet I too get burned so UNLIKE you I do not consider getting burned me not KNOWING how to negotiate. I was my School Debate Champion and have won lawsuits again Fortune 500 Companies representing myself (pro se). The list she talks about is needed. She also has another point no one has picked up on, What about us HAVING A UNION. The all contracts would go thru the Union anynone not paying would be sued by the Union. Programmer would not need to come up with $2000 just to get back $2500. Instead they could pay 120 a year or $10 a Month to belong to a National Technology Workers Union that would have attorneys on staff would could deal with this mess, I think that until that day comes along we should have this list and if the Clients want a list of Bad Programmers they had better pay one of US to create IT! Just my $10,000! On Feb 2, 2008 6:55 PM, angry housewife [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have watched my husband work very hard for three or four contracts in the last six months where he has only been paid ten percent of his total invoiced hours. My husband never signs a contract where the work has to be completed before he is paid, yet every client of his who has not paid uses this as an excuse not to pay because the work or project is not completed. The only work my husband ever seems to get paid in full for is for work done on-site. I'm sorry, but this really sounds like bad business not on the part of the client, but on your husband's part. If the same client did not pay several different contractors, they are probably at fault. If the same contractor doesn't get paid by several different clients, he is probably at fault. Yes there are deadbeat clients out there. Perhaps a list would be helpful. But maybe your husband doesn't need instead of a list of clients to avoid. Maybe he needs some training / help in drafting contracts and dealing with said dead-beat clients. I've done very little on contract myself, but if I ever started, I would seek some help from someone more experienced first. Someone like Jeff Houser on this list generally has the best advice and has experience with clients of all types
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
I will simply note 3 things: 1) I would never run such a list due to liability 2) Since 1995 I've only had 1 dead beat client.so perhaps it's not just the clients?? 3) Why are you hiding behind a temp Yahoo account and not giving your name? Surely this means you're ever bit as scared of liability as everyone says you should be. I feel for anyone that gets a raw deal from a client, so everyone should protect themselves. Paying upfront before code is released is great way to avoid these issues. Cheers - Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com Notice: This message, including any attachments, is confidential and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed unless expressly authorized otherwise by the sender. If you are not an authorized recipient, please notify the sender immediately and permanently destroy all copies of this message and attachments. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3626 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
It is true that I do not have much contracting experience. And I am probably naive about all the things that can go wrong. Because of this and due to Isaac's comments, I will retract my comment that because a contractor has had several non-paying clients that the contractor is at fault. On the other hand, I will uphold my belief that there is two sides (maybe even more, if there are other middle-men or vendors at play) to the story. I'm not saying that a list is necessarily a bad idea. What I am saying, and what I would encourage every other developer to do, is take that list with a grain of salt. Heh, if I was approached by a client that I knew had the worst reputation on the dead-beat list, I would probably ask them about it straight up. But I would not immediately rule them out until I felt I had both (all) sides of the story. As for a union, who knows, maybe it is a good idea. It would take a bit more dissatisfaction than the few on this list before it would happen. I know there are a lot of developers that have been burned, but are probably quite satisfied overall. I also will uphold my belief that getting some help on contracts and communication with clients is always a good idea. Just like always trying to expand and improve your programming skill, even the experienced contractors should keep learning how to better deal with clients. My humble opinions, Matt Williams ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3627 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
Some collective representation for IT workers has its advantages and I am sure disadvantages as well. One thing that has always annoyed me is how IT workers are treated by the tax man vs some other occupations and I think a collective representation could have the power in numbers to change things like that. On Feb 3, 2008 2:36 PM, William Seiter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that having a union would be good for working with dead beat clients as well as with obtaining good contracts, but a union should go further. To a client, a union has become the essence of 'good training'. Would we have an apprentice system? Would we develop 'union programming standards'? I think that having a union is a step in the right direction, but it is a long road to get there. Maybe we can have a poll to see how many people would support it. In the mean time I would suggest that everyone have access to a lawyer or a lawyer system (pre-paid legal). This way you can have a lawyer draft a letter when you aren't paid, and you can have your 'basic' contract reviewed. Regarding contracts. Does anyone have any contract examples that have worked well that they would share with the rest of us? William -- William E. Seiter Have you ever read a book that changed your life? Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com Enter passkey: goldengrove Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer http://William.Seiter.com -Original Message- From: Vincent Cannady [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 10:10 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Dead Beat Clients. Hi Matt, From what I read you have never had many contracts but I can vouch for what Angry Housewife says that I too have been paid when I go client locations to work but when I am up at three o clock in the morning doing work and submit for those hours I never seem to get paid even if I email or IM the client at that time. I have worked in the Contracts Department of companies like Sprint and Cingular and I have seen them get burned and have to resort to Suing to get their money back so again I have to disagree with you about negotiations. A Contract is a contract; here are the three ways you can break a contract per the UCC -Uniform Code of Commerce #1 Incapacity- Mentally Unfit to make a contract #2 Age - To young to be making a contract #3 Breach of contract - One party or another did not complete part of contract So in our case it is almost always number three either the developer did not do ANYWORK (or they signed a completed project contract) or the Client Breached the Contract by not paying Here is the one I find funny- A Client that breeches the contract usually wants to hold you (the Consultant) to a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) meaning no contact with his or her end client after they terminated your services even though they have not paid you. Ok. So Jeff has some experience with this so have I, I have worked for two different Law Enforcement Agencies, Two Different Court Houses in two different States, I have friends who are lawyers. I am an expert in Contract Law. And I always look up clients on WWW.PACER.GOV (Federal DISTRICT Court Houses Case Party Index) yet I too get burned so UNLIKE you I do not consider getting burned me not KNOWING how to negotiate. I was my School Debate Champion and have won lawsuits again Fortune 500 Companies representing myself (pro se). The list she talks about is needed. She also has another point no one has picked up on, What about us HAVING A UNION. The all contracts would go thru the Union anynone not paying would be sued by the Union. Programmer would not need to come up with $2000 just to get back $2500. Instead they could pay 120 a year or $10 a Month to belong to a National Technology Workers Union that would have attorneys on staff would could deal with this mess, I think that until that day comes along we should have this list and if the Clients want a list of Bad Programmers they had better pay one of US to create IT! Just my $10,000! On Feb 2, 2008 6:55 PM, angry housewife [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have watched my husband work very hard for three or four contracts in the last six months where he has only been paid ten percent of his total invoiced hours. My husband never signs a contract where the work has to be completed before he is paid, yet every client of his who has not paid uses this as an excuse not to pay because the work or project is not completed. The only work my husband ever seems to get paid in full for is for work done on-site. I'm sorry, but this really sounds like bad business not on the part of the client, but on your husband's part. If the same client did not pay several different contractors, they are probably at fault. If the same contractor doesn't get paid by several different clients, he is probably at fault. Yes there are deadbeat clients out
RE: Dead Beat Clients.
What kind of issues have you seen with the 'Tax Man'? -- William E. Seiter Have you ever read a book that changed your life? Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com Enter passkey: goldengrove Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer http://William.Seiter.com -Original Message- From: Aaron Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 2:05 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Dead Beat Clients. Some collective representation for IT workers has its advantages and I am sure disadvantages as well. One thing that has always annoyed me is how IT workers are treated by the tax man vs some other occupations and I think a collective representation could have the power in numbers to change things like that. On Feb 3, 2008 2:36 PM, William Seiter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that having a union would be good for working with dead beat clients as well as with obtaining good contracts, but a union should go further. To a client, a union has become the essence of 'good training'. Would we have an apprentice system? Would we develop 'union programming standards'? I think that having a union is a step in the right direction, but it is a long road to get there. Maybe we can have a poll to see how many people would support it. In the mean time I would suggest that everyone have access to a lawyer or a lawyer system (pre-paid legal). This way you can have a lawyer draft a letter when you aren't paid, and you can have your 'basic' contract reviewed. Regarding contracts. Does anyone have any contract examples that have worked well that they would share with the rest of us? William -- William E. Seiter Have you ever read a book that changed your life? Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com Enter passkey: goldengrove Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer http://William.Seiter.com -Original Message- From: Vincent Cannady [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 10:10 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Dead Beat Clients. Hi Matt, From what I read you have never had many contracts but I can vouch for what Angry Housewife says that I too have been paid when I go client locations to work but when I am up at three o clock in the morning doing work and submit for those hours I never seem to get paid even if I email or IM the client at that time. I have worked in the Contracts Department of companies like Sprint and Cingular and I have seen them get burned and have to resort to Suing to get their money back so again I have to disagree with you about negotiations. A Contract is a contract; here are the three ways you can break a contract per the UCC -Uniform Code of Commerce #1 Incapacity- Mentally Unfit to make a contract #2 Age - To young to be making a contract #3 Breach of contract - One party or another did not complete part of contract So in our case it is almost always number three either the developer did not do ANYWORK (or they signed a completed project contract) or the Client Breached the Contract by not paying Here is the one I find funny- A Client that breeches the contract usually wants to hold you (the Consultant) to a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) meaning no contact with his or her end client after they terminated your services even though they have not paid you. Ok. So Jeff has some experience with this so have I, I have worked for two different Law Enforcement Agencies, Two Different Court Houses in two different States, I have friends who are lawyers. I am an expert in Contract Law. And I always look up clients on WWW.PACER.GOV (Federal DISTRICT Court Houses Case Party Index) yet I too get burned so UNLIKE you I do not consider getting burned me not KNOWING how to negotiate. I was my School Debate Champion and have won lawsuits again Fortune 500 Companies representing myself (pro se). The list she talks about is needed. She also has another point no one has picked up on, What about us HAVING A UNION. The all contracts would go thru the Union anynone not paying would be sued by the Union. Programmer would not need to come up with $2000 just to get back $2500. Instead they could pay 120 a year or $10 a Month to belong to a National Technology Workers Union that would have attorneys on staff would could deal with this mess, I think that until that day comes along we should have this list and if the Clients want a list of Bad Programmers they had better pay one of US to create IT! Just my $10,000! On Feb 2, 2008 6:55 PM, angry housewife [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have watched my husband work very hard for three or four contracts in the last six months where he has only been paid ten percent of his total invoiced hours. My husband never signs a contract where the work has to be completed before he is paid, yet every client of his who has not paid uses this as an excuse not to pay because the work or project is not completed. The only work my husband
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
I think unions are the single biggest evil in America today. If unions started making their way into programming, I would gladly trumpet my non-union status, and if it ever became impossible to do work without a union card, I would find another line of work. On Feb 3, 2008 3:36 PM, William Seiter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that having a union would be good for working with dead beat clients as well as with obtaining good contracts, but a union should go further. To a client, a union has become the essence of 'good training'. Would we have an apprentice system? Would we develop 'union programming standards'? ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3630 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
In fact, I'm probably treated a bit better because in Connecticut, web development services are exempt from sales tax, which is one less headache I have to deal with. I thought sales tax only applied to product. Am I like way out of touch? -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3635 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
I thought unions dealt with employer-employee relationships; whereas this thread has been dealing with company - vendor relationships. Am I wrong in that? I can't imagine how a programmer's union would help me. Jerry Johnson wrote: I think unions are the single biggest evil in America today. If unions started making their way into programming, I would gladly trumpet my non-union status, and if it ever became impossible to do work without a union card, I would find another line of work. On Feb 3, 2008 3:36 PM, William Seiter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that having a union would be good for working with dead beat clients as well as with obtaining good contracts, but a union should go further. To a client, a union has become the essence of 'good training'. Would we have an apprentice system? Would we develop 'union programming standards'? ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3632 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
I was wondering that too... I don't believe that myself, as a business owner, is treated any differently than other business owners who are no in the IT field. In fact, I'm probably treated a bit better because in Connecticut, web development services are exempt from sales tax, which is one less headache I have to deal with. William Seiter wrote: What kind of issues have you seen with the 'Tax Man'? -- Jeffry Houser, Technical Entrepreneur, Software Developer, Author, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Podcast: http://www.theflexshow.com My Blog: http://www.jeffryhouser.com ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3633 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
I think that is normally the case, I am seeming to recall certain forms of labor in some of our businesses we had to do sales tax on. One could maybe debate if code is a product though. On Feb 3, 2008 10:24 PM, s. isaac dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In fact, I'm probably treated a bit better because in Connecticut, web development services are exempt from sales tax, which is one less headache I have to deal with. I thought sales tax only applied to product. Am I like way out of touch? -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3636 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
I think that is normally the case, I am seeming to recall certain forms of labor in some of our businesses we had to do sales tax on. One could maybe debate if code is a product though. I would think it would at least depend on who owns the copyright. If you're selling a license and retaining the copyright then there's a case for it being a product. If they get the copyright, then it's definitely a service, same as any other work for hire. Though I suppose it might be arguable that the license to use someone else's intellectual property is a service -- I'm not that familiar with IP law though, so I know that's out of my depth. -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3637 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Dead Beat Clients.
I've been watching the Consultant's Revenge thread for a few days, but haven't commented because most everything that I would say has been said. I like the idea, but I'm also worried about liability. I also like JW's idea about a place where both clients and companies can be listed. I like this idea of the Deadbeat Clients list. But I have a question... shouldn't there be a list for clients who it's a fight to get paid, even if you eventually do? Or for clients who pay, but will negotiate you down after-the-fact? I have a few to add to the list if we're going to have a list like that. Rob ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3620 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Dead Beat Clients.
If this list is going to be created, you can probably break it off into groups. 1. Dead Beats 2. Slow Pays 3. Partial Pays (Partial invoices, not partial jobs) I, personally, think this would be a grand idea. I also think that the company/client, should also be able to list on a similar system the names of those consultants that left them in a lurch, walked away from the job, or did something that specifically jeopardized the job. I have recently been speaking to a client who has had 3 people walk away. As much as this is a red flag for me to work with him, it also says something about consultants. Unfortunately, I don't know if it was the client, the consultant, or the job that was too obtrusive to be completed with. I know for myself, such a list may not stop me from working with a client, but it will make me 'stick to my requirements' harder. (If my agreement is weekly invoices, the first missed payment has all work stop until a satisfactory explanation or payment has been received, if it is by 'milestone', no work until payment has been received based on the milestone, etc.) The unfortunate thing about a list like this is that it can't be 'amended'. Once an email is sent on this list, it is forever searchable by the search engines. If you make a 'typo', or if a company name is the same for different companies across regions, then there has been a 'mistake' that cannot be 'redacted'. I think this would be better served using a database similar to the BBB system. I know, for instance, that there is at least 1 client out there who would say some poor things about me, and I about them. What it comes down to is a bad communication issue. (the specs were, apparently, unclear (I had thought that the client meant something, when they had meant something else.) Even though I have billed her for the hours I worked on it, she has never paid, and never responded to additional contact. I have written it off and I hope that we both took a lesson away from it. For me, even if you have worked on a similar project before, address every project as if you have never worked with them on one previously (get all the facts from scratch). Hers, be very clear in your specification documents. And one for both of us; don't just read and confirm each part of the specifications, review them all with the other party to verify the verbiage relates the intent. William -- William E. Seiter Have you ever read a book that changed your life? Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com Enter passkey: goldengrove Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer http://William.Seiter.com =30099.21321.11 ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3621 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
