Re: Features (Re: ColdFusion Builder Released!)

[Tom Chiverton]

On Tuesday 23 Mar 2010, b...@bradwood.com wrote:
> As a ColdBox user, that would be really really nice for the IDE to be
> aware of how the autowiring is going to work at run time.  I never
> realized how useful it was for your IDE to "know" about the variables
> and objects in your code until I did some work in Java/Eclipse and
> marveled at the usefulness of simply clicking a class and being taken to
> the corresponding .java file etc.

Exactly - it's this sort of (static) analysis that makes or breaks an IDE, and 
CFB has none of it except some clumsy 'variable mappings' which a lot of the 
time it 'should' be able to figure for itself.

-- 
Helping to authoritatively incentivize mission-critical e-business as part of 
the IT team of the year 2010, '09 and '08



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Re: Features (Re: ColdFusion Builder Released!)

[denstar]

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Adrocknaphobia wrote:
...
> I already shared you feedback with the CB engineering team _and_ Luis. I'm
> very much on board with providing extension points into our parsers. :-)

Sweet!  Stuff like this is more along the lines I was referring to.  :)

And y'all don't mind if we support CFB extensions in CFE?  I found a
plugin that builds UI elements and whatnot from XML files, seems like
it'd work...

:Den

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ever flowing on to you.
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Re: Features (Re: ColdFusion Builder Released!)

[Judah McAuley]

Thanks Adam. I send Luis fan mail all the time, no worries, I've got
to get off my butt and put my Coldbox contributions up on the Code
Depot. Now if I just got less lazy and blogged, maybe I'd become a
Team Coldbox member :)

Cheers,
Judah

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 2:00 PM, Adrocknaphobia
 wrote:
>
> Judah,
>
> I already shared you feedback with the CB engineering team _and_ Luis. I'm
> very much on board with providing extension points into our parsers. :-)
>
> -Adam
>
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Judah McAuley  wrote:
>
>>
>> That's correct, Adam. Luis has done a great job with the CFB
>> extensions for Coldbox as well as some nifty bits for CFE.  As a
>> matter of fact, his CFB extension is the biggest reason I'm tempted to
>> use CFBuilder. But please look over my suggestion. I really want to
>> see a CFML IDE that *really* understands the code, not just the
>> syntax. When I'm in a handler in my MVC app, and I start using one of
>> my Service objects, the IDE really needs to be able to pick up the
>> methods I defined in that object.
>>
>> We are writing applications, not single pages of code. And
>> applications need to understand the other parts of the application.
>> We've got a start, but neither CFBuilder nor CFEclipse is there yet.
>>
>> Judah
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Adrocknaphobia
>>  wrote:
>> >
>> > "Stuff that we could have paid developers working on (Adobe), as well
>> > as The Community (us)..."
>> >
>> > We have that now in ColdFusion Builder. :-) There are 30 extensions
>> created
>> > by the community already available on RIAForge.
>> >
>> > I assume this thread implies that the ideas are in addition to the
>> awesome
>> > ColdBox extension that already exists.
>> >
>> > http://www.coldboxframework.com/forgebox/view/ColdBox-Platform-Utilities
>> >
>> > <
>> http://www.coldboxframework.com/forgebox/view/ColdBox-Platform-Utilities>
>> > -Adam
>> >
>> > On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 2:20 PM, denstar  wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Judah McAuley wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm still up for trying to make this happen once I get my current side
>> >> > project out the door. I can't stand having to go back and open up all
>> >> > my Service objects when I'm in my handler trying to remember what I
>> >> > named all of my methods and what arguments they take.  This isn't one
>> >> > of those areas where CFML being dynamic and duck typed is an
>> >> > issue...well, the dynamic part comes in somewhat. But the real issue
>> >> > is just having the IDE know where to go find the files to pay
>> >> > attention to. Once it knows where the files are, it can certainly
>> >> > parse them and show a list of methods and their arguments.
>> >>
>> >> Yup, and finding files is part of why I started the cfml.project
>> >> project.  I want to be able to specify in one place where mappings
>> >> are, for instance, and let CFE (+framework explorer), MXUnit, and
>> >> cfdistro/etc. use the same info, if it's there.
>> >>
>> >> The framework explorer *could* offer auto-complete and do validation
>> >> on (for instance) ColdSpring XML files.
>> >>
>> >> There's no way around *having* to provide some extra information, for
>> >> some stuff, but we can actually suss out quite a bit automatically.
>> >>
>> >> > Lets see who gets there first, Adam, CFEclipse or CFBuilder.  Let's
>> >> > see some real IDE's for CFML that understand modern application
>> >> > development, like DI, Composition and Inheritance :)
>> >>
>> >> This is part of why I'd like to see some manner of sharing resources.
>> >>
>> >> It's going to require some thought, as CFB is based on Aptana and
>> >> Aptana has it's own way of doing a lot of stuff (much like DLTK has
>> >> it's own way-- DLTK is what I'm looking at for providing a "all in
>> >> one" CFML/XML/HTML/CSS/Javascript version, but we'll see what
>> >> happens)... what I'd really like to see is an open source
>> >> parser/CFMLModel deal that both projects could use at the core, and
>> >> expose to Aptana or DLTK (or whatever) however needed.
>> >>
>> >> Stuff that we could have paid developers working on (Adobe), as well
>> >> as The Community (us)...
>> >>
>> >> It would have to wait until the CFML language spec stuff is kinda
>> >> rolling along, probably, but it's something to think about...
>> >>
>> >> :DeN
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony.
>> >> Heraclit
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
> 

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RE: Features (Re: ColdFusion Builder Released!)

[brad]

+1000

As a ColdBox user, that would be really really nice for the IDE to be
aware of how the autowiring is going to work at run time.  I never
realized how useful it was for your IDE to "know" about the variables
and objects in your code until I did some work in Java/Eclipse and
marveled at the usefulness of simply clicking a class and being taken to
the corresponding .java file etc.

~Brad

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: Features (Re: ColdFusion Builder Released!)
From: Adrocknaphobia 
Date: Tue, March 23, 2010 4:00 pm
To: cf-talk 


Judah,

I already shared you feedback with the CB engineering team _and_ Luis.
I'm
very much on board with providing extension points into our parsers. :-)

-Adam




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Re: Features (Re: ColdFusion Builder Released!)

[Adrocknaphobia]

Judah,

I already shared you feedback with the CB engineering team _and_ Luis. I'm
very much on board with providing extension points into our parsers. :-)

-Adam

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Judah McAuley  wrote:

>
> That's correct, Adam. Luis has done a great job with the CFB
> extensions for Coldbox as well as some nifty bits for CFE.  As a
> matter of fact, his CFB extension is the biggest reason I'm tempted to
> use CFBuilder. But please look over my suggestion. I really want to
> see a CFML IDE that *really* understands the code, not just the
> syntax. When I'm in a handler in my MVC app, and I start using one of
> my Service objects, the IDE really needs to be able to pick up the
> methods I defined in that object.
>
> We are writing applications, not single pages of code. And
> applications need to understand the other parts of the application.
> We've got a start, but neither CFBuilder nor CFEclipse is there yet.
>
> Judah
>
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Adrocknaphobia
>  wrote:
> >
> > "Stuff that we could have paid developers working on (Adobe), as well
> > as The Community (us)..."
> >
> > We have that now in ColdFusion Builder. :-) There are 30 extensions
> created
> > by the community already available on RIAForge.
> >
> > I assume this thread implies that the ideas are in addition to the
> awesome
> > ColdBox extension that already exists.
> >
> > http://www.coldboxframework.com/forgebox/view/ColdBox-Platform-Utilities
> >
> > <
> http://www.coldboxframework.com/forgebox/view/ColdBox-Platform-Utilities>
> > -Adam
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 2:20 PM, denstar  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Judah McAuley wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I'm still up for trying to make this happen once I get my current side
> >> > project out the door. I can't stand having to go back and open up all
> >> > my Service objects when I'm in my handler trying to remember what I
> >> > named all of my methods and what arguments they take.  This isn't one
> >> > of those areas where CFML being dynamic and duck typed is an
> >> > issue...well, the dynamic part comes in somewhat. But the real issue
> >> > is just having the IDE know where to go find the files to pay
> >> > attention to. Once it knows where the files are, it can certainly
> >> > parse them and show a list of methods and their arguments.
> >>
> >> Yup, and finding files is part of why I started the cfml.project
> >> project.  I want to be able to specify in one place where mappings
> >> are, for instance, and let CFE (+framework explorer), MXUnit, and
> >> cfdistro/etc. use the same info, if it's there.
> >>
> >> The framework explorer *could* offer auto-complete and do validation
> >> on (for instance) ColdSpring XML files.
> >>
> >> There's no way around *having* to provide some extra information, for
> >> some stuff, but we can actually suss out quite a bit automatically.
> >>
> >> > Lets see who gets there first, Adam, CFEclipse or CFBuilder.  Let's
> >> > see some real IDE's for CFML that understand modern application
> >> > development, like DI, Composition and Inheritance :)
> >>
> >> This is part of why I'd like to see some manner of sharing resources.
> >>
> >> It's going to require some thought, as CFB is based on Aptana and
> >> Aptana has it's own way of doing a lot of stuff (much like DLTK has
> >> it's own way-- DLTK is what I'm looking at for providing a "all in
> >> one" CFML/XML/HTML/CSS/Javascript version, but we'll see what
> >> happens)... what I'd really like to see is an open source
> >> parser/CFMLModel deal that both projects could use at the core, and
> >> expose to Aptana or DLTK (or whatever) however needed.
> >>
> >> Stuff that we could have paid developers working on (Adobe), as well
> >> as The Community (us)...
> >>
> >> It would have to wait until the CFML language spec stuff is kinda
> >> rolling along, probably, but it's something to think about...
> >>
> >> :DeN
> >>
> >> --
> >> Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony.
> >> Heraclit
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> 

~|
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Re: Features (Re: ColdFusion Builder Released!)

[Judah McAuley]

That's correct, Adam. Luis has done a great job with the CFB
extensions for Coldbox as well as some nifty bits for CFE.  As a
matter of fact, his CFB extension is the biggest reason I'm tempted to
use CFBuilder. But please look over my suggestion. I really want to
see a CFML IDE that *really* understands the code, not just the
syntax. When I'm in a handler in my MVC app, and I start using one of
my Service objects, the IDE really needs to be able to pick up the
methods I defined in that object.

We are writing applications, not single pages of code. And
applications need to understand the other parts of the application.
We've got a start, but neither CFBuilder nor CFEclipse is there yet.

Judah

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Adrocknaphobia
 wrote:
>
> "Stuff that we could have paid developers working on (Adobe), as well
> as The Community (us)..."
>
> We have that now in ColdFusion Builder. :-) There are 30 extensions created
> by the community already available on RIAForge.
>
> I assume this thread implies that the ideas are in addition to the awesome
> ColdBox extension that already exists.
>
> http://www.coldboxframework.com/forgebox/view/ColdBox-Platform-Utilities
>
> 
> -Adam
>
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 2:20 PM, denstar  wrote:
>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Judah McAuley wrote:
>> >
>> > I'm still up for trying to make this happen once I get my current side
>> > project out the door. I can't stand having to go back and open up all
>> > my Service objects when I'm in my handler trying to remember what I
>> > named all of my methods and what arguments they take.  This isn't one
>> > of those areas where CFML being dynamic and duck typed is an
>> > issue...well, the dynamic part comes in somewhat. But the real issue
>> > is just having the IDE know where to go find the files to pay
>> > attention to. Once it knows where the files are, it can certainly
>> > parse them and show a list of methods and their arguments.
>>
>> Yup, and finding files is part of why I started the cfml.project
>> project.  I want to be able to specify in one place where mappings
>> are, for instance, and let CFE (+framework explorer), MXUnit, and
>> cfdistro/etc. use the same info, if it's there.
>>
>> The framework explorer *could* offer auto-complete and do validation
>> on (for instance) ColdSpring XML files.
>>
>> There's no way around *having* to provide some extra information, for
>> some stuff, but we can actually suss out quite a bit automatically.
>>
>> > Lets see who gets there first, Adam, CFEclipse or CFBuilder.  Let's
>> > see some real IDE's for CFML that understand modern application
>> > development, like DI, Composition and Inheritance :)
>>
>> This is part of why I'd like to see some manner of sharing resources.
>>
>> It's going to require some thought, as CFB is based on Aptana and
>> Aptana has it's own way of doing a lot of stuff (much like DLTK has
>> it's own way-- DLTK is what I'm looking at for providing a "all in
>> one" CFML/XML/HTML/CSS/Javascript version, but we'll see what
>> happens)... what I'd really like to see is an open source
>> parser/CFMLModel deal that both projects could use at the core, and
>> expose to Aptana or DLTK (or whatever) however needed.
>>
>> Stuff that we could have paid developers working on (Adobe), as well
>> as The Community (us)...
>>
>> It would have to wait until the CFML language spec stuff is kinda
>> rolling along, probably, but it's something to think about...
>>
>> :DeN
>>
>> --
>> Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony.
>> Heraclit
>>
>>
>
> 

~|
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Re: Features (Re: ColdFusion Builder Released!)

[Adrocknaphobia]

"Stuff that we could have paid developers working on (Adobe), as well
as The Community (us)..."

We have that now in ColdFusion Builder. :-) There are 30 extensions created
by the community already available on RIAForge.

I assume this thread implies that the ideas are in addition to the awesome
ColdBox extension that already exists.

http://www.coldboxframework.com/forgebox/view/ColdBox-Platform-Utilities


-Adam

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 2:20 PM, denstar  wrote:

>
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Judah McAuley wrote:
> >
> > I'm still up for trying to make this happen once I get my current side
> > project out the door. I can't stand having to go back and open up all
> > my Service objects when I'm in my handler trying to remember what I
> > named all of my methods and what arguments they take.  This isn't one
> > of those areas where CFML being dynamic and duck typed is an
> > issue...well, the dynamic part comes in somewhat. But the real issue
> > is just having the IDE know where to go find the files to pay
> > attention to. Once it knows where the files are, it can certainly
> > parse them and show a list of methods and their arguments.
>
> Yup, and finding files is part of why I started the cfml.project
> project.  I want to be able to specify in one place where mappings
> are, for instance, and let CFE (+framework explorer), MXUnit, and
> cfdistro/etc. use the same info, if it's there.
>
> The framework explorer *could* offer auto-complete and do validation
> on (for instance) ColdSpring XML files.
>
> There's no way around *having* to provide some extra information, for
> some stuff, but we can actually suss out quite a bit automatically.
>
> > Lets see who gets there first, Adam, CFEclipse or CFBuilder.  Let's
> > see some real IDE's for CFML that understand modern application
> > development, like DI, Composition and Inheritance :)
>
> This is part of why I'd like to see some manner of sharing resources.
>
> It's going to require some thought, as CFB is based on Aptana and
> Aptana has it's own way of doing a lot of stuff (much like DLTK has
> it's own way-- DLTK is what I'm looking at for providing a "all in
> one" CFML/XML/HTML/CSS/Javascript version, but we'll see what
> happens)... what I'd really like to see is an open source
> parser/CFMLModel deal that both projects could use at the core, and
> expose to Aptana or DLTK (or whatever) however needed.
>
> Stuff that we could have paid developers working on (Adobe), as well
> as The Community (us)...
>
> It would have to wait until the CFML language spec stuff is kinda
> rolling along, probably, but it's something to think about...
>
> :DeN
>
> --
> Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony.
> Heraclit
>
> 

~|
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Re: Features (Re: ColdFusion Builder Released!)

[denstar]

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Judah McAuley wrote:
>
> I'm still up for trying to make this happen once I get my current side
> project out the door. I can't stand having to go back and open up all
> my Service objects when I'm in my handler trying to remember what I
> named all of my methods and what arguments they take.  This isn't one
> of those areas where CFML being dynamic and duck typed is an
> issue...well, the dynamic part comes in somewhat. But the real issue
> is just having the IDE know where to go find the files to pay
> attention to. Once it knows where the files are, it can certainly
> parse them and show a list of methods and their arguments.

Yup, and finding files is part of why I started the cfml.project
project.  I want to be able to specify in one place where mappings
are, for instance, and let CFE (+framework explorer), MXUnit, and
cfdistro/etc. use the same info, if it's there.

The framework explorer *could* offer auto-complete and do validation
on (for instance) ColdSpring XML files.

There's no way around *having* to provide some extra information, for
some stuff, but we can actually suss out quite a bit automatically.

> Lets see who gets there first, Adam, CFEclipse or CFBuilder.  Let's
> see some real IDE's for CFML that understand modern application
> development, like DI, Composition and Inheritance :)

This is part of why I'd like to see some manner of sharing resources.

It's going to require some thought, as CFB is based on Aptana and
Aptana has it's own way of doing a lot of stuff (much like DLTK has
it's own way-- DLTK is what I'm looking at for providing a "all in
one" CFML/XML/HTML/CSS/Javascript version, but we'll see what
happens)... what I'd really like to see is an open source
parser/CFMLModel deal that both projects could use at the core, and
expose to Aptana or DLTK (or whatever) however needed.

Stuff that we could have paid developers working on (Adobe), as well
as The Community (us)...

It would have to wait until the CFML language spec stuff is kinda
rolling along, probably, but it's something to think about...

:DeN

-- 
Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony.
Heraclit

~|
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Re: Features (Re: ColdFusion Builder Released!)

[Judah McAuley]

I'm still up for trying to make this happen once I get my current side
project out the door. I can't stand having to go back and open up all
my Service objects when I'm in my handler trying to remember what I
named all of my methods and what arguments they take.  This isn't one
of those areas where CFML being dynamic and duck typed is an
issue...well, the dynamic part comes in somewhat. But the real issue
is just having the IDE know where to go find the files to pay
attention to. Once it knows where the files are, it can certainly
parse them and show a list of methods and their arguments.

Lets see who gets there first, Adam, CFEclipse or CFBuilder.  Let's
see some real IDE's for CFML that understand modern application
development, like DI, Composition and Inheritance :)

Judah

On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 5:11 PM, denstar  wrote:
>
> On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 5:10 PM,  wrote:
>>
>> +1 on this feature.  I also use ColdBox and autowire most of my objects
>> in.  I know some things are impossible with a dynamic language like CF,
>> but I'd be willing to right click on a variable name in a CFC and
>> specify the CFC that it is an instance of and have CFB somehow remember
>> that if it would mean I could type variables.mySerivce. and have the
>> list of methods pop up.
>
> Now /this/ is where things get interesting!
>
> The "framework explorer" is the place to put this logic in CFE.  No
> clicking needed, all automatic-stylez.
>
> While that doesn't help CFB out at all, what I'd like to see is both
> editors offering extension points that somehow allow us to have one
> version of the framework explorer (split back off into it's own
> plugin) that could contribute to both.
>
> Probably impossible, currently, but still.
>
> It would be soo cool if we could find some stuff that both the
> Open Source Community and Adobe could sorta collaborate on, while
> still furthering the individual goals of each project.
>
> FWIW, I've split out a lot of the things in CFE that might be useful
> in places besides Eclipse (the dictionaries, the formatter, the
> parser, and a deal for storing cfml project-related info) into their
> own projects.
>
> This will provide a base for things like code-coverage tools and
> whatnot to leverage, which I feel is important to CFML as a language,
> and has been lacking thus far.
>
> For the peeps.
>
> :DeN
>
> --
> Man is most nearly himself when he achieves the seriousness of a child at 
> play.
> Heraclit
>
> 

~|
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