Re: Linux Kongress 2003 in Saarbruecken, Germany
> Sascha Brawer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > When it comes to sharing VM internals, I'd be mostly interested about > > some common compiler infrastructure written in Java, such as a framework > > for an Intermediate Representation. But I guess it would be very hard to > > come to an agreemant about how to do it correctly. It might be easier for > > other parts, such as assemblers. Michael Hind wrote > Although it was designed to be a common infrastructure, the Jikes RVM > optimizing compiler (JIT) is written in Java, so if someone undertakes > this project, they may want to look at it as a basis. Sorry, I should have said "it was *not* designed to be a common infrastructure". Mike - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Michael Hind, Manager, Dynamic Optimization Group, Jalapeño Project IBM Watson Research Center http://www.research.ibm.com/people/h/hind [EMAIL PROTECTED], 914 784-7589, tie: 863-7589 Jikes RVM open source release: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/oss/jikesrvm___ Classpath mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/classpath
Re: Linux Kongress 2003 in Saarbruecken, Germany
Sascha Brawer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > When it comes to sharing VM internals, I'd be mostly interested about > some common compiler infrastructure written in Java, such as a framework > for an Intermediate Representation. But I guess it would be very hard to > come to an agreemant about how to do it correctly. It might be easier for > other parts, such as assemblers. Although it was designed to be a common infrastructure, the Jikes RVM optimizing compiler (JIT) is written in Java, so if someone undertakes this project, they may want to look at it as a basis. Mark Wielaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I would like to see talks about: . . . > - JRVM, implementing the difficult stuff in an easy language. There is an OOPSLA'99 paper that describes this topic, available at (http://www-124.ibm.com/developerworks/oss/jikesrvm/info/pubs.shtml#oopsla99_jvm) Mark Wielaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Seriously. I think GNU Classpath is the boring project. It is what it > enables people do with it that makes it so exciting! Having people > create big complex free programs on top of it like Eclipse > (http://www.eclipse.org/) or XWT (http://www.xwt.org/) is nice. And > writing application in an easy language for the GNOME framework is > really productive. And we are also the catalyst for all these cool > VM/Compiler projects mentioned above. Giving people the freedom to do > these kinds of innovative things without them being > controlled/sanctioned by someone is why I think GNU Classpath is > meaningful. I agree. Mucho kudos should go to the GNU Classpath developers. It has enabled Jikes RVM to run Eclipse using a completely open source system. Furthermore, the kudos that the Jikes RVM team regularly receive from our large community of researchers should transitively be passed on to the GNU Classpath developers. Thanks! Mike - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Michael Hind, Manager, Dynamic Optimization Group, Jalapeño Project IBM Watson Research Center http://www.research.ibm.com/people/h/hind [EMAIL PROTECTED], 914 784-7589, tie: 863-7589 Jikes RVM open source release: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/oss/jikesrvm___ Classpath mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/classpath
Re: Linux Kongress 2003 in Saarbruecken, Germany
Mark Wielaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:58:32 +0200: > [GNU Coding Standards: Trademarks] Thanks for pointing this out. >You should also mention that some dedicated people have been working on >GNU Classpath for the last five years. That explains why we are as far >as we are now. Consistently doing little steps for a couple of years >does work to make progress. Definitely. I really don't want to pretend that other people's hard work would be mine. >> Would anyone be interested in doing the talk together? >I can certainly act as the lovely assistant who does the demos :) You'd also be more than welcome to say something, of course. Talks are 40 minutes, including discussion. How long do you think that the demos will take, 10 minutes maybe? --- Actually, this topic might not be that interesting for everyone on the list. Is it OK to move this thread off-list? >[...] >And from the meeting in Karlsruhe I got the impression that people would >be interested in some common (native) library format to reuse the output >of a ahead of time or just in time compiler. (BTW found the paper that I >mentioned: http://flint.cs.yale.edu/flint/publications/bincomp.html) Thanks for the interesting reference. When it comes to sharing VM internals, I'd be mostly interested about some common compiler infrastructure written in Java, such as a framework for an Intermediate Representation. But I guess it would be very hard to come to an agreemant about how to do it correctly. It might be easier for other parts, such as assemblers. Another non-library part I'd be interested in sharing is device drivers for pure Java OSes/embedded systems, or even just common interfaces to those. >> GNU Classpath -- Freedom for Java [FIXME: Is the title too snappy?] >"Freedom to Innovate" :) Yes, let's do it without buzzwords. What about "GNU Classpath -- Motivation, current state, missing parts"? >Seriously. I think GNU Classpath is the boring project. It is what it >enables people do with it that makes it so exciting! I fully agree, there's very little room for creativity here (I hope saying so does not offend anyone). I guess we all have our truly exciting projects which just need this boring library. But, who works on Classpath unless we do it ourselves? >[some reasons why Classpath is meaningful] Yes, this huge framework seems indeed like a reasonable foundation for building free applications that go beyond a certain base level. Which cross-platform alternatives are there, anyway? GNUStep, possibly. Also, the .NET library seems quite nice, but I must admit that I did not look at it very closely. There are some platform-specifc frameworks (like MFC, MacApp, PowerPlant). Of course, someone could try to establish a new framework. This would have the big advantage that it would be "us" (the free software people) who is setting the standard, so we wouldn't always lag behind. But one would also have to convince each potential developer that they are not on a risky path. Best, -- Sascha Sascha Brawer, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.dandelis.ch/people/brawer/ ___ Classpath mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/classpath
Re: Linux Kongress 2003 in Saarbruecken, Germany
Hi, On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 10:51, Sascha Brawer wrote: > Here's a draft for an extended abstract, see below. Any comments In general be careful of your use of the word java. We don't want to give the impression that we implement java, which is a trademarked word used to describe particular (proprietary) implementations. That is why we call the project GNU Classpath, essential libraries for the java language or something similar descriptive. See also http://www.fsf.org/prep/standards_5.html You should also mention that some dedicated people have been working on GNU Classpath for the last five years. That explains why we are as far as we are now. Consistently doing little steps for a couple of years does work to make progress. > Would anyone be interested in doing the talk together? I can certainly act as the lovely assistant who does the demos :) > IMHO, it would be great if there also were > separate talks about the VMs. I would like to see talks about: - Kaffe, the NetBSD of VMs (we show you what portability means) - GCJ, doing it the traditional way (or how to generate the fasted code on earth) - JRVM, implementing the difficult stuff in an easy language. - IKVM.NET, cooperation and integration in the extreme. > Also, would anyone be interested in a BoF session about Java graphics? > What other talks/BoFs do people have in mind? I really want to spend some time the next couple of months on Mauve or just tests in general and on making the VM interface even more abstract. Both topics would be nice to evaluate with some people. And from the meeting in Karlsruhe I got the impression that people would be interested in some common (native) library format to reuse the output of a ahead of time or just in time compiler. (BTW found the paper that I mentioned: http://flint.cs.yale.edu/flint/publications/bincomp.html) > GNU Classpath -- Freedom for Java [FIXME: Is the title too snappy?] "Freedom to Innovate" :) Seriously. I think GNU Classpath is the boring project. It is what it enables people do with it that makes it so exciting! Having people create big complex free programs on top of it like Eclipse (http://www.eclipse.org/) or XWT (http://www.xwt.org/) is nice. And writing application in an easy language for the GNOME framework is really productive. And we are also the catalyst for all these cool VM/Compiler projects mentioned above. Giving people the freedom to do these kinds of innovative things without them being controlled/sanctioned by someone is why I think GNU Classpath is meaningful. Cheers, Mark ___ Classpath mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/classpath
Re: Linux Kongress 2003 in Saarbruecken, Germany
Dalibor Topic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:05:33 +0200: >Mark Wielaard has already said that I'd like the next free software java >develeper meeting to be in Saarbruecken, which hosts the Linux Kongress >from October 14 to October 16, 2003. I hope we can use this Kongress as >an oppportunity to present the current state of free java >implementations to a broader audience. And of course to have a BOF >session, a couple of drinks and a good time. Here's a draft for an extended abstract, see below. Any comments? Would anyone be interested in doing the talk together? (I think that would be good, because otherwise my contribution to Classpath might appear larger than it actually is). IMHO, it would be great if there also were separate talks about the VMs. Also, would anyone be interested in a BoF session about Java graphics? What other talks/BoFs do people have in mind? Best, -- Sascha Sascha Brawer, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.dandelis.ch/people/brawer/ PS: Dalibor has sent the call for papers both to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED], which is why I am sending this to both. But I guess we probably should have the discussion on the classpath list. == GNU Classpath -- Freedom for Java [FIXME: Is the title too snappy?] Java has become the tool of choice for many software developers. Although good marketing was probably a big, if not the most important factor to Java's success, there also exist technical properties which make the combination of language and associated class libraries a very attractive platform. In this talk, we explain why we think that Java is good for writing free software. After briefly reviewing some projects for free Virtual Machines, the main section discusses the current state of GNU Classpath. The goal of GNU Classpath is to implement the class library of the Java platform. Due to the richness of that library, GNU Classpath is a very large and ambitious project. But this very richness also means that Free Software developers can use a reasonably well designed, object-oriented framework that covers more most needs of a typical application. Because Java is accepted by the mainstream, many developers are already familiar with the framework, which means that they can quickly write free software. GNU Classpath has made much more progress than many might think. In a live demonstration, we refute the widespread belief that it would not be possible to run large Java projects in an entirely free environment. Nonetheless, many important parts are still missing. The talk thus concludes by showing how volunteers can contribute to GNU Classpath, and in which areas help would be most appreciated. ___ Classpath mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/classpath
