RE: [ANN] Clojure 1.10.0-beta8
In news that should surprise no one: our full test suite passes on Beta 8 (I
meant to post that yesterday afternoon but got distracted).
Sean Corfield -- (970) FOR-SEAN -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood
From: clojure@googlegroups.com on behalf of Alex
Miller
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 7:17:26 AM
To: Clojure
Subject: [ANN] Clojure 1.10.0-beta8
1.10.0-beta8 is now available.
You can try it with clj using:
clj -Sdeps '{:deps {org.clojure/clojure {:mvn/version "1.10.0-beta8"}}}'
Changes in 1.10.0-beta8:
* CLJ-2438<https://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-2438> - demunge source
location in execution error messages
* CLJ-2437<https://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-2437> - add
async-require and use it from requiring-resolve
* CLJ-2436<https://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-2436> - fix reflection
warning in reflect.java
You can read the full 1.10 changelog here:
https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.md
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Re: [ANN] Clojure 1.10.0-beta8
Absolutely not trying to propel this discussion forward, but *ackchyually *even
with the given semantics ("async-require should be used in asynchronous
code"), the better word would be "concurrent" or "multithreaded".
But I certainly didn't intend this thread to unwind so much and take away
this much time. I'm staying with Andy on this, godspeed, we're eagerly
waiting for the 1.10 release.
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Re: [ANN] Clojure 1.10.0-beta8
For sure, but some documentation of that process would be nice, otherwise the “nah, were good” replies come off as condescending. I’ve typed up a few other comments, and then deleted them, as they’re getting too OT. So I’ll exit the conversation, and unsub from this mailing list, since it’s clear outside input isn’t valued, aside from being crowdsourced QA. On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 12:40 PM Andy Fingerhut wrote: > I suspect Alex and other folks have already done all of the bikeshedding > internally that they have the patience for, and are content with the name > and the reasons they ahve for it, and are not enthusiastic about another > round of that in a public forum. > > Rich owns Clojure code legally, and I would say ethically as well (given > his time investment vs. that of others in it, and his original authorship > of most of the code, and that everyone who contributed code agreed in > advance to give him co-ownership). Project maintainers get to craft the > rules by which changes are made, for any project. Some choose to turn it > over to a committee, others do not. > > Andy > > > On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:25 AM Timothy Baldridge > wrote: > >> >> We’re good with the name. The docstring exists for further >> explanation. >> >> Except the code is less-readable. The name is meaningless. >> "async-require" appends the adverb "async" to the verb "require", therefore >> making it an asynchronous variant of require, which is exactly the opposite >> of what the function actually does. So it might as well be named >> `foo-require`. Actually `foo-require` is better, since I don't know what >> `foo` means and I'd look up the docstring to find out. With `async-requrie` >> I now have more cognitive load having to remember what Clojure's special >> definition of `async` is in this context. All these crazy edge-cases in the >> naming of the language really start to add up after awhile, and it takes >> mental space away that I could be using to focus on the problem I'm trying >> to solve. >> >> It blows my mind that the Clojure team even cares enough to say no to >> this, why does it matter this much that it can't change. This conversation >> reinforces the view that Clojure is close-source development. Once the >> community hears about a feature, it's written in stone. Apparently all >> required input has already been thought of and anything the community says >> couldn't possibly matter. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:34 AM Chris Nuernberger >> wrote: >> >>> Agreed, specifically to avoid things like this: >>> >>> https://github.com/tech-ascent/tech.compute/blob/master/src/tech/compute/cpu/tensor_math.clj#L45 >>> >>> Great timing and we will be looking forward to it! >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:09 AM Sean Corfield >>> wrote: >>> >>>> This makes me smile… My first reaction to the name was the same as >>>> Alexander’s and then my second reaction cut in: “No, they’ll have thought >>>> about the name and won’t entertain changes” >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It’s for safely doing requires in asynchronous (multi-threaded) code. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean Corfield -- (970) FOR-SEAN -- (904) 302-SEAN >>>> An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ >>>> >>>> "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." >>>> -- Margaret Atwood >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> *From:* clojure@googlegroups.com on behalf >>>> of Alex Miller >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 21, 2018 9:54:28 AM >>>> *To:* clojure@googlegroups.com >>>> *Subject:* Re: [ANN] Clojure 1.10.0-beta8 >>>> >>>> We’re good with the name. The docstring exists for further explanation. >>>> >>>> On Nov 21, 2018, at 11:29 AM, Alexander Yakushev >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Could I suggest bikeshedding on the name async-require? Before I've >>>> seen the patch, my initial impression was that it loads namespaces >>>> asynchronously (that is, returns control immediately and loads them in the >>>> background). It might be somewhat confusing that a function >>>> async-require is actually even more synchronous than the regular >>>> require :). How about synchronized-require (it's basically >>>> word-to-word description of the function body)? >>>> >>>&
Re: [ANN] Clojure 1.10.0-beta8
Geez, man, relax and have a drumstick. The audience for this is, I expect, small. Over time we expect to monkey with the internals of require itself, and this will basically become deprecated, but that was too much for this point in 1.10. Also, please note that the other two parts of this beta are based on community feedback from beta7. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [ANN] Clojure 1.10.0-beta8
I suspect Alex and other folks have already done all of the bikeshedding
internally that they have the patience for, and are content with the name
and the reasons they ahve for it, and are not enthusiastic about another
round of that in a public forum.
Rich owns Clojure code legally, and I would say ethically as well (given
his time investment vs. that of others in it, and his original authorship
of most of the code, and that everyone who contributed code agreed in
advance to give him co-ownership). Project maintainers get to craft the
rules by which changes are made, for any project. Some choose to turn it
over to a committee, others do not.
Andy
On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:25 AM Timothy Baldridge
wrote:
> >> We’re good with the name. The docstring exists for further
> explanation.
>
> Except the code is less-readable. The name is meaningless. "async-require"
> appends the adverb "async" to the verb "require", therefore making it an
> asynchronous variant of require, which is exactly the opposite of what the
> function actually does. So it might as well be named `foo-require`.
> Actually `foo-require` is better, since I don't know what `foo` means and
> I'd look up the docstring to find out. With `async-requrie` I now have more
> cognitive load having to remember what Clojure's special definition of
> `async` is in this context. All these crazy edge-cases in the naming of the
> language really start to add up after awhile, and it takes mental space
> away that I could be using to focus on the problem I'm trying to solve.
>
> It blows my mind that the Clojure team even cares enough to say no to
> this, why does it matter this much that it can't change. This conversation
> reinforces the view that Clojure is close-source development. Once the
> community hears about a feature, it's written in stone. Apparently all
> required input has already been thought of and anything the community says
> couldn't possibly matter.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:34 AM Chris Nuernberger
> wrote:
>
>> Agreed, specifically to avoid things like this:
>>
>> https://github.com/tech-ascent/tech.compute/blob/master/src/tech/compute/cpu/tensor_math.clj#L45
>>
>> Great timing and we will be looking forward to it!
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:09 AM Sean Corfield wrote:
>>
>>> This makes me smile… My first reaction to the name was the same as
>>> Alexander’s and then my second reaction cut in: “No, they’ll have thought
>>> about the name and won’t entertain changes”
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It’s for safely doing requires in asynchronous (multi-threaded) code.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sean Corfield -- (970) FOR-SEAN -- (904) 302-SEAN
>>> An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
>>>
>>> "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
>>> -- Margaret Atwood
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *From:* clojure@googlegroups.com on behalf
>>> of Alex Miller
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 21, 2018 9:54:28 AM
>>> *To:* clojure@googlegroups.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [ANN] Clojure 1.10.0-beta8
>>>
>>> We’re good with the name. The docstring exists for further explanation.
>>>
>>> On Nov 21, 2018, at 11:29 AM, Alexander Yakushev
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Could I suggest bikeshedding on the name async-require? Before I've
>>> seen the patch, my initial impression was that it loads namespaces
>>> asynchronously (that is, returns control immediately and loads them in the
>>> background). It might be somewhat confusing that a function
>>> async-require is actually even more synchronous than the regular require
>>> :). How about synchronized-require (it's basically word-to-word
>>> description of the function body)?
>>>
>>> Otherwise, thanks for this one, I needed something like this plenty of
>>> times!
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 5:17:26 PM UTC+2, Alex Miller wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 1.10.0-beta8 is now available.
>>>>
>>>> You can try it with clj using:
>>>>
>>>> clj -Sdeps '{:deps {org.clojure/clojure {:mvn/version "1.10.0-beta8"}}}'
>>>>
>>>> Changes in 1.10.0-beta8:
>>>>
>>>>- CLJ-2438 <https://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-2438> - demunge
>>>>source location in execution error messages
>>>>- CLJ-2437 <https://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-2437> - add
>>>>async-require and use it from r
Re: [ANN] Clojure 1.10.0-beta8
>> We’re good with the name. The docstring exists for further
explanation.
Except the code is less-readable. The name is meaningless. "async-require"
appends the adverb "async" to the verb "require", therefore making it an
asynchronous variant of require, which is exactly the opposite of what the
function actually does. So it might as well be named `foo-require`.
Actually `foo-require` is better, since I don't know what `foo` means and
I'd look up the docstring to find out. With `async-requrie` I now have more
cognitive load having to remember what Clojure's special definition of
`async` is in this context. All these crazy edge-cases in the naming of the
language really start to add up after awhile, and it takes mental space
away that I could be using to focus on the problem I'm trying to solve.
It blows my mind that the Clojure team even cares enough to say no to this,
why does it matter this much that it can't change. This conversation
reinforces the view that Clojure is close-source development. Once the
community hears about a feature, it's written in stone. Apparently all
required input has already been thought of and anything the community says
couldn't possibly matter.
On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:34 AM Chris Nuernberger
wrote:
> Agreed, specifically to avoid things like this:
>
> https://github.com/tech-ascent/tech.compute/blob/master/src/tech/compute/cpu/tensor_math.clj#L45
>
> Great timing and we will be looking forward to it!
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:09 AM Sean Corfield wrote:
>
>> This makes me smile… My first reaction to the name was the same as
>> Alexander’s and then my second reaction cut in: “No, they’ll have thought
>> about the name and won’t entertain changes”
>>
>>
>>
>> It’s for safely doing requires in asynchronous (multi-threaded) code.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sean Corfield -- (970) FOR-SEAN -- (904) 302-SEAN
>> An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
>>
>> "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
>> -- Margaret Atwood
>>
>>
>> ----------
>> *From:* clojure@googlegroups.com on behalf of
>> Alex Miller
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 21, 2018 9:54:28 AM
>> *To:* clojure@googlegroups.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [ANN] Clojure 1.10.0-beta8
>>
>> We’re good with the name. The docstring exists for further explanation.
>>
>> On Nov 21, 2018, at 11:29 AM, Alexander Yakushev
>> wrote:
>>
>> Could I suggest bikeshedding on the name async-require? Before I've seen
>> the patch, my initial impression was that it loads namespaces
>> asynchronously (that is, returns control immediately and loads them in the
>> background). It might be somewhat confusing that a function async-require
>> is actually even more synchronous than the regular require :). How about
>> synchronized-require
>> (it's basically word-to-word description of the function body)?
>>
>> Otherwise, thanks for this one, I needed something like this plenty of
>> times!
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 5:17:26 PM UTC+2, Alex Miller wrote:
>>>
>>> 1.10.0-beta8 is now available.
>>>
>>> You can try it with clj using:
>>>
>>> clj -Sdeps '{:deps {org.clojure/clojure {:mvn/version "1.10.0-beta8"}}}'
>>>
>>> Changes in 1.10.0-beta8:
>>>
>>>- CLJ-2438 <https://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-2438> - demunge
>>>source location in execution error messages
>>>- CLJ-2437 <https://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-2437> - add
>>>async-require and use it from requiring-resolve
>>>- CLJ-2436 <https://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-2436> - fix
>>>reflection warning in reflect.java
>>>
>>> You can read the full 1.10 changelog here:
>>> https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.md
>>>
>> --
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>>
Re: [ANN] Clojure 1.10.0-beta8
Agreed, specifically to avoid things like this:
https://github.com/tech-ascent/tech.compute/blob/master/src/tech/compute/cpu/tensor_math.clj#L45
Great timing and we will be looking forward to it!
On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:09 AM Sean Corfield wrote:
> This makes me smile… My first reaction to the name was the same as
> Alexander’s and then my second reaction cut in: “No, they’ll have thought
> about the name and won’t entertain changes”
>
>
>
> It’s for safely doing requires in asynchronous (multi-threaded) code.
>
>
>
> Sean Corfield -- (970) FOR-SEAN -- (904) 302-SEAN
> An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
>
> "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
> -- Margaret Atwood
>
>
> --
> *From:* clojure@googlegroups.com on behalf of
> Alex Miller
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 21, 2018 9:54:28 AM
> *To:* clojure@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [ANN] Clojure 1.10.0-beta8
>
> We’re good with the name. The docstring exists for further explanation.
>
> On Nov 21, 2018, at 11:29 AM, Alexander Yakushev
> wrote:
>
> Could I suggest bikeshedding on the name async-require? Before I've seen
> the patch, my initial impression was that it loads namespaces
> asynchronously (that is, returns control immediately and loads them in the
> background). It might be somewhat confusing that a function async-require
> is actually even more synchronous than the regular require :). How about
> synchronized-require
> (it's basically word-to-word description of the function body)?
>
> Otherwise, thanks for this one, I needed something like this plenty of
> times!
>
> On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 5:17:26 PM UTC+2, Alex Miller wrote:
>>
>> 1.10.0-beta8 is now available.
>>
>> You can try it with clj using:
>>
>> clj -Sdeps '{:deps {org.clojure/clojure {:mvn/version "1.10.0-beta8"}}}'
>>
>> Changes in 1.10.0-beta8:
>>
>>- CLJ-2438 <https://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-2438> - demunge
>>source location in execution error messages
>>- CLJ-2437 <https://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-2437> - add
>>async-require and use it from requiring-resolve
>>- CLJ-2436 <https://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-2436> - fix
>>reflection warning in reflect.java
>>
>> You can read the full 1.10 changelog here:
>> https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.md
>>
> --
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RE: [ANN] Clojure 1.10.0-beta8
This makes me smile… My first reaction to the name was the same as Alexander’s
and then my second reaction cut in: “No, they’ll have thought about the name
and won’t entertain changes”
It’s for safely doing requires in asynchronous (multi-threaded) code.
Sean Corfield -- (970) FOR-SEAN -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood
From: clojure@googlegroups.com on behalf of Alex
Miller
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 9:54:28 AM
To: clojure@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ANN] Clojure 1.10.0-beta8
We’re good with the name. The docstring exists for further explanation.
On Nov 21, 2018, at 11:29 AM, Alexander Yakushev
mailto:unlo...@bytopia.org>> wrote:
Could I suggest bikeshedding on the name async-require? Before I've seen the
patch, my initial impression was that it loads namespaces asynchronously (that
is, returns control immediately and loads them in the background). It might be
somewhat confusing that a function async-require is actually even more
synchronous than the regular require :). How about synchronized-require (it's
basically word-to-word description of the function body)?
Otherwise, thanks for this one, I needed something like this plenty of times!
On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 5:17:26 PM UTC+2, Alex Miller wrote:
1.10.0-beta8 is now available.
You can try it with clj using:
clj -Sdeps '{:deps {org.clojure/clojure {:mvn/version "1.10.0-beta8"}}}'
Changes in 1.10.0-beta8:
* CLJ-2438<https://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-2438> - demunge source
location in execution error messages
* CLJ-2437<https://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-2437> - add
async-require and use it from requiring-resolve
* CLJ-2436<https://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-2436> - fix reflection
warning in reflect.java
You can read the full 1.10 changelog here:
https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.md
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Re: [ANN] Clojure 1.10.0-beta8
We’re good with the name. The docstring exists for further explanation.
> On Nov 21, 2018, at 11:29 AM, Alexander Yakushev wrote:
>
> Could I suggest bikeshedding on the name async-require? Before I've seen the
> patch, my initial impression was that it loads namespaces asynchronously
> (that is, returns control immediately and loads them in the background). It
> might be somewhat confusing that a function async-require is actually even
> more synchronous than the regular require :). How about synchronized-require
> (it's basically word-to-word description of the function body)?
>
> Otherwise, thanks for this one, I needed something like this plenty of times!
>
>> On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 5:17:26 PM UTC+2, Alex Miller wrote:
>> 1.10.0-beta8 is now available.
>>
>> You can try it with clj using:
>>
>> clj -Sdeps '{:deps {org.clojure/clojure {:mvn/version "1.10.0-beta8"}}}'
>>
>> Changes in 1.10.0-beta8:
>> CLJ-2438 - demunge source location in execution error messages
>> CLJ-2437 - add async-require and use it from requiring-resolve
>> CLJ-2436 - fix reflection warning in reflect.java
>> You can read the full 1.10 changelog here:
>> https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.md
>
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Re: [ANN] Clojure 1.10.0-beta8
Could I suggest bikeshedding on the name async-require? Before I've seen
the patch, my initial impression was that it loads namespaces
asynchronously (that is, returns control immediately and loads them in the
background). It might be somewhat confusing that a function async-require
is actually even more synchronous than the regular require :). How about
synchronized-require
(it's basically word-to-word description of the function body)?
Otherwise, thanks for this one, I needed something like this plenty of
times!
On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 5:17:26 PM UTC+2, Alex Miller wrote:
>
> 1.10.0-beta8 is now available.
>
> You can try it with clj using:
>
> clj -Sdeps '{:deps {org.clojure/clojure {:mvn/version "1.10.0-beta8"}}}'
>
> Changes in 1.10.0-beta8:
>
>- CLJ-2438 - demunge
>source location in execution error messages
>- CLJ-2437 - add
>async-require and use it from requiring-resolve
>- CLJ-2436 - fix
>reflection warning in reflect.java
>
> You can read the full 1.10 changelog here:
> https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.md
>
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[ANN] Clojure 1.10.0-beta8
1.10.0-beta8 is now available.
You can try it with clj using:
clj -Sdeps '{:deps {org.clojure/clojure {:mvn/version "1.10.0-beta8"}}}'
Changes in 1.10.0-beta8:
- CLJ-2438 - demunge
source location in execution error messages
- CLJ-2437 - add
async-require and use it from requiring-resolve
- CLJ-2436 - fix
reflection warning in reflect.java
You can read the full 1.10 changelog here:
https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.md
--
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