subject:"Largest Clojure codebases\?"

Re: Largest Clojure codebases?

2015-11-24 Thread Nicolas Herry


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Hash: SHA256
 


Le 16/11/2015 15:54, Kyle R. Burton a écrit :
> At the last company I was with I used sloccount [1] to analyze the codebase.  
> I concatenated all the
clj files to a .lisp file so sloccount could analyze it.  I was curious
about the cost estimate that sloccount performs to see how the team
measured up (size varied from 2 to 7 over 5 years).  When I did the
analysis (over a year ago) we had about 130k lines of Clojure that
represented about two dozen libraries and bout six services.  Including
the javascript, java, C, Ruby and other languages in our repositories,
sloccount estimated over 5x the person years we actually spent.  This
team was also responsible for the whole stack - production operations,
releases, etc.  If someone is doing research, I'd be happy to reach out
to a colleague to see if they would run the analysis again.

Is sloccount reliable for anything beyond counting the lines of code? In
the past, I've tried it over simple code bases in various languages and
it would always produce cost estimates way higher than the reality
(one-off perl things I would do over a week-end would be estimated at
something 150 days).

I confess I've never configured sloccount (actually, I have no idea
whether this is possible at all) and have always relied on the stock,
default execution. I'm genuinely interested in knowing whether sloccount
can be used as a serious cost estimator.

Nicolas
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Re: Largest Clojure codebases?

2015-11-23 Thread Sean Corfield

I know I've seen mentions of 50k-100k LOC projects (World Singles, if I'm 
remembering correctly), but are there any that are larger?

Our code base is "only" about 30kloc of production Clojure so far (and 7.5kloc 
of unit tests and 2kloc WebDriver tests). As we refactor our legacy code base, 
we’re rewriting quite a bit of it from a dynamic OO scripting language to 
Clojure and finding we need less code — sometimes a lot less — for FP compared 
to OOP. If we were using Java, our OOP codebase would be even bigger so the 
"compression" from Java to Clojure would be even more extreme. That means that 
a "large" codebase in OOP is likely to be much, much larger than the equivalent 
"large" codebase in FP — in general — making it somewhat hard to compare 
numbers in any meaningful way.

I’m not quite sure what you mean by "old-school OOP programmer" but, for 
comparison, I’ve been doing software development commercially since the early 
80’s and OOP specifically since the early 90’s. I did FP at college in the 80’s 
and I’ve been doing it commercially for the last six years now. Based on that 
comparative experience, I’m pretty comfortable asserting that a) you do not 
need objects to make large-scale codebases legible and maintainable and b) an 
object-based codebase is likely to be larger than the equivalent functional 
codebase (and a smaller codebase is more legible and maintainable anyway).

Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
World Singles -- http://worldsingles.com/


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Re: Largest Clojure codebases?

2015-11-16 Thread Michael Willis

For what it's worth, here's the way that I always count lines of code, 
should work on any unix-like system:

find -name "*.clj" | wc -l

On Sunday, November 15, 2015 at 5:23:01 PM UTC-6, Colin Yates wrote:
>
> Exactly this. I couldn’t find a reliable way of counting LOC but my 
> (Clojure/ClojureSciprt) src tree (excluding test) in the project I have to 
> hand is 1.5MB.
>
>
> On 15 Nov 2015, at 21:27, Timothy Baldridge  > wrote:
>
> It's funny, because most of the larger OOP projects I worked on were large 
> because of class bloat, not because of business concerns. For example, the 
> C# app I used to work on was a more or less simple CRUD app. We had a ORM 
> that served up objects to a Silverlight UI. So if we wanted to display 
> information about a person on the UI we normally had to modify around 5 
> classes in 5 files. We had the following layers
>
> ORM - 1.4MB of generated C# for interfacing with the 200 or so SQL tables 
> we had
> DTO - Data Transfer Object, where used "normal" C# objects to abstract the 
> ORM. This is where we had the "Person" object 
> API - A web service that served up DTOs over HTTP
> Data Model - Processed views of DTOs formatted in a way that was easily 
> viewable by the UI
> View Model - UI classes that would take data from a Data Model and emit UI 
> controls. 
>
> All of that ceremonythat is replaced by one thing in Clojure...data. 
> Hashmaps and vectors replace all the junk you see above. 
>
> So that's where I often assert "Yes, you may have 1 million lines of Java 
> codebut that would only be ~10,000 lines of Clojure." With proper 
> application of data driven systems (data that configures pipelines and 
> writes code) you can easily get a 100:1 ratio of Java to Clojure code. 
>
> Timothy
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Marc O'Morain  > wrote:
>
>> We have a large app at CircleCI - as of September:
>>
>> "The repo for our main app contains 93,983 lines of Clojure code. The src 
>> directory 
>> of our main app contains 369 namespaces."
>>
>> http://blog.circleci.com/why-were-no-longer-using-core-typed/
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 7:22 PM, dilettan...@live.com  <
>> dilettan...@live.com > wrote:
>>
>>> I've been having a (friendly) argument with a friend who is an 
>>> old-school OOP programmer.  He insists that you need objects to make 
>>> large-scale codebases legible and maintainable over the long run.  Quite 
>>> apart from this argument's virtues or lack thereof, this made me curious -- 
>>> what are the largest programs written in Clojure in terms of LOC?  I know 
>>> I've seen mentions of 50k-100k LOC projects (World Singles, if I'm 
>>> remembering correctly), but are there any that are larger?
>>>
>>>Vikram
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
>
> -- 
> “One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that–lacking 
> zero–they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C 
> programs.”
> (Robert Firth) 
>
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Re: Largest Clojure codebases?

2015-11-16 Thread Kyle R. Burton

At the last company I was with I used sloccount [1] to analyze the
codebase.  I concatenated all the clj files to a .lisp file so sloccount
could analyze it.  I was curious about the cost estimate that sloccount
performs to see how the team measured up (size varied from 2 to 7 over 5
years).  When I did the analysis (over a year ago) we had about 130k lines
of Clojure that represented about two dozen libraries and bout six
services.  Including the javascript, java, C, Ruby and other languages in
our repositories, sloccount estimated over 5x the person years we actually
spent.  This team was also responsible for the whole stack - production
operations, releases, etc.  If someone is doing research, I'd be happy to
reach out to a colleague to see if they would run the analysis again.


Kyle


[1] http://www.dwheeler.com/sloccount/

On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 4:06 PM, dennis zhuang  wrote:

> I use cloc(http://cloc.sourceforge.net/) to counting the LOC of our
> projects, it's total about 41025 lines of Clojure  code.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2015-11-16 7:22 GMT+08:00 Colin Yates :
>
>> Exactly this. I couldn’t find a reliable way of counting LOC but my
>> (Clojure/ClojureSciprt) src tree (excluding test) in the project I have to
>> hand is 1.5MB.
>>
>>
>> On 15 Nov 2015, at 21:27, Timothy Baldridge  wrote:
>>
>> It's funny, because most of the larger OOP projects I worked on were
>> large because of class bloat, not because of business concerns. For
>> example, the C# app I used to work on was a more or less simple CRUD app.
>> We had a ORM that served up objects to a Silverlight UI. So if we wanted to
>> display information about a person on the UI we normally had to modify
>> around 5 classes in 5 files. We had the following layers
>>
>> ORM - 1.4MB of generated C# for interfacing with the 200 or so SQL tables
>> we had
>> DTO - Data Transfer Object, where used "normal" C# objects to abstract
>> the ORM. This is where we had the "Person" object
>> API - A web service that served up DTOs over HTTP
>> Data Model - Processed views of DTOs formatted in a way that was easily
>> viewable by the UI
>> View Model - UI classes that would take data from a Data Model and emit
>> UI controls.
>>
>> All of that ceremonythat is replaced by one thing in Clojure...data.
>> Hashmaps and vectors replace all the junk you see above.
>>
>> So that's where I often assert "Yes, you may have 1 million lines of Java
>> codebut that would only be ~10,000 lines of Clojure." With proper
>> application of data driven systems (data that configures pipelines and
>> writes code) you can easily get a 100:1 ratio of Java to Clojure code.
>>
>> Timothy
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Marc O'Morain 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> We have a large app at CircleCI - as of September:
>>>
>>> "The repo for our main app contains 93,983 lines of Clojure code. The
>>> src directory of our main app contains 369 namespaces."
>>>
>>> http://blog.circleci.com/why-were-no-longer-using-core-typed/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 7:22 PM, dilettante.co...@live.com <
>>> dilettante.co...@live.com> wrote:
>>>
 I've been having a (friendly) argument with a friend who is an
 old-school OOP programmer.  He insists that you need objects to make
 large-scale codebases legible and maintainable over the long run.  Quite
 apart from this argument's virtues or lack thereof, this made me curious --
 what are the largest programs written in Clojure in terms of LOC?  I know
 I've seen mentions of 50k-100k LOC projects (World Singles, if I'm
 remembering correctly), but are there any that are larger?

Vikram

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>>>
>>>
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Re: Largest Clojure codebases?

2015-11-15 Thread Marc O'Morain

We have a large app at CircleCI - as of September:





"The repo for our main app contains 93,983 lines of Clojure code. The src 
directory of our main app contains 369 namespaces."





http://blog.circleci.com/why-were-no-longer-using-core-typed/

On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 7:22 PM, null  wrote:

> I've been having a (friendly) argument with a friend who is an old-school 
> OOP programmer.  He insists that you need objects to make large-scale 
> codebases legible and maintainable over the long run.  Quite apart from 
> this argument's virtues or lack thereof, this made me curious -- what are 
> the largest programs written in Clojure in terms of LOC?  I know I've seen 
> mentions of 50k-100k LOC projects (World Singles, if I'm remembering 
> correctly), but are there any that are larger?
>Vikram
> -- 
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Largest Clojure codebases?

2015-11-15 Thread dilettante . coder

I've been having a (friendly) argument with a friend who is an old-school 
OOP programmer.  He insists that you need objects to make large-scale 
codebases legible and maintainable over the long run.  Quite apart from 
this argument's virtues or lack thereof, this made me curious -- what are 
the largest programs written in Clojure in terms of LOC?  I know I've seen 
mentions of 50k-100k LOC projects (World Singles, if I'm remembering 
correctly), but are there any that are larger?

   Vikram

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Re: Largest Clojure codebases?

2015-11-15 Thread Timothy Baldridge

It's funny, because most of the larger OOP projects I worked on were large
because of class bloat, not because of business concerns. For example, the
C# app I used to work on was a more or less simple CRUD app. We had a ORM
that served up objects to a Silverlight UI. So if we wanted to display
information about a person on the UI we normally had to modify around 5
classes in 5 files. We had the following layers

ORM - 1.4MB of generated C# for interfacing with the 200 or so SQL tables
we had
DTO - Data Transfer Object, where used "normal" C# objects to abstract the
ORM. This is where we had the "Person" object
API - A web service that served up DTOs over HTTP
Data Model - Processed views of DTOs formatted in a way that was easily
viewable by the UI
View Model - UI classes that would take data from a Data Model and emit UI
controls.

All of that ceremonythat is replaced by one thing in Clojure...data.
Hashmaps and vectors replace all the junk you see above.

So that's where I often assert "Yes, you may have 1 million lines of Java
codebut that would only be ~10,000 lines of Clojure." With proper
application of data driven systems (data that configures pipelines and
writes code) you can easily get a 100:1 ratio of Java to Clojure code.

Timothy


On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Marc O'Morain  wrote:

> We have a large app at CircleCI - as of September:
>
> "The repo for our main app contains 93,983 lines of Clojure code. The src 
> directory
> of our main app contains 369 namespaces."
>
> http://blog.circleci.com/why-were-no-longer-using-core-typed/
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 7:22 PM, dilettante.co...@live.com <
> dilettante.co...@live.com> wrote:
>
>> I've been having a (friendly) argument with a friend who is an old-school
>> OOP programmer.  He insists that you need objects to make large-scale
>> codebases legible and maintainable over the long run.  Quite apart from
>> this argument's virtues or lack thereof, this made me curious -- what are
>> the largest programs written in Clojure in terms of LOC?  I know I've seen
>> mentions of 50k-100k LOC projects (World Singles, if I'm remembering
>> correctly), but are there any that are larger?
>>
>>Vikram
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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>
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“One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that–lacking
zero–they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C
programs.”
(Robert Firth)

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Re: Largest Clojure codebases?

2015-11-15 Thread Colin Yates

Exactly this. I couldn’t find a reliable way of counting LOC but my 
(Clojure/ClojureSciprt) src tree (excluding test) in the project I have to hand 
is 1.5MB.


> On 15 Nov 2015, at 21:27, Timothy Baldridge  wrote:
> 
> It's funny, because most of the larger OOP projects I worked on were large 
> because of class bloat, not because of business concerns. For example, the C# 
> app I used to work on was a more or less simple CRUD app. We had a ORM that 
> served up objects to a Silverlight UI. So if we wanted to display information 
> about a person on the UI we normally had to modify around 5 classes in 5 
> files. We had the following layers
> 
> ORM - 1.4MB of generated C# for interfacing with the 200 or so SQL tables we 
> had
> DTO - Data Transfer Object, where used "normal" C# objects to abstract the 
> ORM. This is where we had the "Person" object 
> API - A web service that served up DTOs over HTTP
> Data Model - Processed views of DTOs formatted in a way that was easily 
> viewable by the UI
> View Model - UI classes that would take data from a Data Model and emit UI 
> controls. 
> 
> All of that ceremonythat is replaced by one thing in Clojure...data. 
> Hashmaps and vectors replace all the junk you see above. 
> 
> So that's where I often assert "Yes, you may have 1 million lines of Java 
> codebut that would only be ~10,000 lines of Clojure." With proper 
> application of data driven systems (data that configures pipelines and writes 
> code) you can easily get a 100:1 ratio of Java to Clojure code. 
> 
> Timothy
> 
> 
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Marc O'Morain  > wrote:
> We have a large app at CircleCI - as of September:
> 
> "The repo for our main app contains 93,983 lines of Clojure code. The src 
> directory of our main app contains 369 namespaces."
> 
> http://blog.circleci.com/why-were-no-longer-using-core-typed/ 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 7:22 PM, dilettante.co...@live.com 
>   > wrote:
> 
> I've been having a (friendly) argument with a friend who is an old-school OOP 
> programmer.  He insists that you need objects to make large-scale codebases 
> legible and maintainable over the long run.  Quite apart from this argument's 
> virtues or lack thereof, this made me curious -- what are the largest 
> programs written in Clojure in terms of LOC?  I know I've seen mentions of 
> 50k-100k LOC projects (World Singles, if I'm remembering correctly), but are 
> there any that are larger?
> 
>Vikram
> 
> -- 
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Re: Largest Clojure codebases?

2015-11-15 Thread dennis zhuang

I use cloc(http://cloc.sourceforge.net/) to counting the LOC of our
projects, it's total about 41025 lines of Clojure  code.






2015-11-16 7:22 GMT+08:00 Colin Yates :

> Exactly this. I couldn’t find a reliable way of counting LOC but my
> (Clojure/ClojureSciprt) src tree (excluding test) in the project I have to
> hand is 1.5MB.
>
>
> On 15 Nov 2015, at 21:27, Timothy Baldridge  wrote:
>
> It's funny, because most of the larger OOP projects I worked on were large
> because of class bloat, not because of business concerns. For example, the
> C# app I used to work on was a more or less simple CRUD app. We had a ORM
> that served up objects to a Silverlight UI. So if we wanted to display
> information about a person on the UI we normally had to modify around 5
> classes in 5 files. We had the following layers
>
> ORM - 1.4MB of generated C# for interfacing with the 200 or so SQL tables
> we had
> DTO - Data Transfer Object, where used "normal" C# objects to abstract the
> ORM. This is where we had the "Person" object
> API - A web service that served up DTOs over HTTP
> Data Model - Processed views of DTOs formatted in a way that was easily
> viewable by the UI
> View Model - UI classes that would take data from a Data Model and emit UI
> controls.
>
> All of that ceremonythat is replaced by one thing in Clojure...data.
> Hashmaps and vectors replace all the junk you see above.
>
> So that's where I often assert "Yes, you may have 1 million lines of Java
> codebut that would only be ~10,000 lines of Clojure." With proper
> application of data driven systems (data that configures pipelines and
> writes code) you can easily get a 100:1 ratio of Java to Clojure code.
>
> Timothy
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Marc O'Morain  wrote:
>
>> We have a large app at CircleCI - as of September:
>>
>> "The repo for our main app contains 93,983 lines of Clojure code. The src 
>> directory
>> of our main app contains 369 namespaces."
>>
>> http://blog.circleci.com/why-were-no-longer-using-core-typed/
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 7:22 PM, dilettante.co...@live.com <
>> dilettante.co...@live.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I've been having a (friendly) argument with a friend who is an
>>> old-school OOP programmer.  He insists that you need objects to make
>>> large-scale codebases legible and maintainable over the long run.  Quite
>>> apart from this argument's virtues or lack thereof, this made me curious --
>>> what are the largest programs written in Clojure in terms of LOC?  I know
>>> I've seen mentions of 50k-100k LOC projects (World Singles, if I'm
>>> remembering correctly), but are there any that are larger?
>>>
>>>Vikram
>>>
>>> --
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>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> “One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that–lacking
> zero–they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C
> programs.”
> (Robert Firth)
>
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Re: Largest Clojure codebases?

2015-11-15 Thread Gregg Reynolds

I'm reminded of the old joke: to err is human; to really screw up you need
a computer (read: OO).
On Nov 15, 2015 3:27 PM, "Timothy Baldridge"  wrote:

> It's funny, because most of the larger OOP projects I worked on were large
> because of class bloat, not because of business concerns. For example, the
> C# app I used to work on was a more or less simple CRUD app. We had a ORM
> that served up objects to a Silverlight UI. So if we wanted to display
> information about a person on the UI we normally had to modify around 5
> classes in 5 files. We had the following layers
>
> ORM - 1.4MB of generated C# for interfacing with the 200 or so SQL tables
> we had
> DTO - Data Transfer Object, where used "normal" C# objects to abstract the
> ORM. This is where we had the "Person" object
> API - A web service that served up DTOs over HTTP
> Data Model - Processed views of DTOs formatted in a way that was easily
> viewable by the UI
> View Model - UI classes that would take data from a Data Model and emit UI
> controls.
>
> All of that ceremonythat is replaced by one thing in Clojure...data.
> Hashmaps and vectors replace all the junk you see above.
>
> So that's where I often assert "Yes, you may have 1 million lines of Java
> codebut that would only be ~10,000 lines of Clojure." With proper
> application of data driven systems (data that configures pipelines and
> writes code) you can easily get a 100:1 ratio of Java to Clojure code.
>
> Timothy
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Marc O'Morain  wrote:
>
>> We have a large app at CircleCI - as of September:
>>
>> "The repo for our main app contains 93,983 lines of Clojure code. The src 
>> directory
>> of our main app contains 369 namespaces."
>>
>> http://blog.circleci.com/why-were-no-longer-using-core-typed/
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 7:22 PM, dilettante.co...@live.com <
>> dilettante.co...@live.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I've been having a (friendly) argument with a friend who is an
>>> old-school OOP programmer.  He insists that you need objects to make
>>> large-scale codebases legible and maintainable over the long run.  Quite
>>> apart from this argument's virtues or lack thereof, this made me curious --
>>> what are the largest programs written in Clojure in terms of LOC?  I know
>>> I've seen mentions of 50k-100k LOC projects (World Singles, if I'm
>>> remembering correctly), but are there any that are larger?
>>>
>>>Vikram
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Clojure" group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com
>>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with
>>> your first post.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
>>> ---
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>>>
>>
>> --
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> “One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that–lacking
> zero–they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C
> programs.”
> (Robert Firth)
>
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