Re: 100x startup for Clojure using GraalVM

[Alan Thompson]

When you have a short-running task that completes in 0.01 sec, a startup
delay of 1.3 seconds (or more) *is* the total execution time.

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 10:32 AM david hoyt  wrote:

> This kind of think is really only interesting for shell piping in bash. It
> won’t help numerical, tensor, neural, simulation, nor business codes. Good
> FORTRAN environments can do hard numerical faster. To a lesser amount, so
> can C. In supercomputing, that advantage is reduced. I/O bandwidth becomes
> more important. In business, I/O is the only thing that’s important. The
> only think that reliably makes a difference is the quality of the
> developers.
>
> Startup in Java, Microsoft’s library framework,  have slower start up
> times because no one has bothered to optimize things for startup time. The
> time to get the entire task completed (or cost) is the only thing that is
> important.
>
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Re: 100x startup for Clojure using GraalVM

[david hoyt]

This kind of think is really only interesting for shell piping in bash. It 
won’t help numerical, tensor, neural, simulation, nor business codes. Good 
FORTRAN environments can do hard numerical faster. To a lesser amount, so can 
C. In supercomputing, that advantage is reduced. I/O bandwidth becomes more 
important. In business, I/O is the only thing that’s important. The only think 
that reliably makes a difference is the quality of the developers.

Startup in Java, Microsoft’s library framework,  have slower start up times 
because no one has bothered to optimize things for startup time. The time to 
get the entire task completed (or cost) is the only thing that is important.

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Re: 100x startup for Clojure using GraalVM

[Daniel Compton]

> They are probably much less interested in using these methods for
long-running server processes.

At work, we were quite interested in making a native-image of our API
server recently. Having a fast boot would have opened a lot more
possibilities around where we could run it. Serverless environments like
AWS Lambda, Google Cloud Run, Google App Engine Standard, and other places
that boot in response to a request were not even close to workable with our
moderately sized Clojure API server. We did some experiments with making a
native-image, but there were too many libraries that needed to be updated
to do it now. We're going to chip away at making our dependencies
native-image compatible and then have another crack later.

Bruno Bonacci has a collection of sample apps at
https://github.com/BrunoBonacci/graalvm-clojure showing how to build
various libraries and highlighting where there are issues currently.

On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 7:06 PM Andy Fingerhut 
wrote:

> I believe at least some of the people working on this, and interested in
> these results, would like to use Clojure for command line utilities and
> such, which tend to have quite short run times when implemented in
> C/C++/Python/etc.  They are probably much less interested in using these
> methods for long-running server processes.
>
> Andy
>
> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 8:46 PM 'Gerard Klijs' via Clojure <
> clojure@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello world is fun, but doesn't say much. I would like to see benchmarks
>> on the actual application. Ideally it would take several jvm's so also
>> Graal and J9 and also use the commercial version of making a native image,
>> asses how much memory is needed when run on the JVM and limit that, since
>> otherwise it will might take upto a quarter of available memory. Measures
>> both the time to the first successful handled request from startup, the max
>> throughput after being warmed up properly, the .99 percentile latency after
>> being warmed up, and the memory use.
>> Only if you have those numbers you could decide if a native image is
>> worth it. For example if with the current load one instance with a native
>> image could always handle the load, it might save a lot, because you can
>> and to 0, where the total first request just take seconds. But if at loyal
>> moments with a native image you need 30 instances, while on the JVM you
>> need only 3 it might not.
>>
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Re: 100x startup for Clojure using GraalVM

[Andy Fingerhut]

I believe at least some of the people working on this, and interested in
these results, would like to use Clojure for command line utilities and
such, which tend to have quite short run times when implemented in
C/C++/Python/etc.  They are probably much less interested in using these
methods for long-running server processes.

Andy

On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 8:46 PM 'Gerard Klijs' via Clojure <
clojure@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Hello world is fun, but doesn't say much. I would like to see benchmarks
> on the actual application. Ideally it would take several jvm's so also
> Graal and J9 and also use the commercial version of making a native image,
> asses how much memory is needed when run on the JVM and limit that, since
> otherwise it will might take upto a quarter of available memory. Measures
> both the time to the first successful handled request from startup, the max
> throughput after being warmed up properly, the .99 percentile latency after
> being warmed up, and the memory use.
> Only if you have those numbers you could decide if a native image is worth
> it. For example if with the current load one instance with a native image
> could always handle the load, it might save a lot, because you can and to
> 0, where the total first request just take seconds. But if at loyal moments
> with a native image you need 30 instances, while on the JVM you need only 3
> it might not.
>
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> .
>

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Re: 100x startup for Clojure using GraalVM

['Gerard Klijs' via Clojure]

Hello world is fun, but doesn't say much. I would like to see benchmarks on the 
actual application. Ideally it would take several jvm's so also Graal and J9 
and also use the commercial version of making a native image, asses how much 
memory is needed when run on the JVM and limit that, since otherwise it will 
might take upto a quarter of available memory. Measures both the time to the 
first successful handled request from startup, the max throughput after being 
warmed up properly, the .99 percentile latency after being warmed up, and the 
memory use.
Only if you have those numbers you could decide if a native image is worth it. 
For example if with the current load one instance with a native image could 
always handle the load, it might save a lot, because you can and to 0, where 
the total first request just take seconds. But if at loyal moments with a 
native image you need 30 instances, while on the JVM you need only 3 it might 
not.

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Re: 100x startup for Clojure using GraalVM

[Alan Thompson]

A quick comparison with python:

> time python -c 'print("Hello world!")'
Hello world!
0.03s user 0.01s system 80% cpu 0.048 total

> /usr/bin/time -l  python -c 'print("Hello world!")'
Hello world!
0.04 real 0.02 user 0.01 sys
 6  maximum resident set size (MB)
  2110  page reclaims
24  involuntary context switches

So the Python version *takes 5x longer*, and uses *3x more memory.*


On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 12:58 PM Nate Sutton  wrote:

> Another way to achieve fast startup is to compile clojurescript to a
> nodejs target and then use the nodejs library called pkg to bundle the
> nodejs binary with the script. I haven't timed it but it's an interesting
> alternative.
>
> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 12:46 PM Colin Yates 
> wrote:
>
>> Do we have any idea how that memory saving scales?
>>
>> I know a bunch of meta data isn’t needed as it is hotspot specific, but
>> are there any other memory savings?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 12 Nov 2019, at 18:42, Alan Thompson  wrote:
>>
>> In my initial post, I failed to mention the huge memory savings achieved
>> by the standalone executable (in addition to the startup time savings).
>>
>> Note that using *time* at the command line resolves to a shell built-in
>> command. We can get more information from the standard Unix version of time:
>> # JVM+UberJar
>> > /usr/bin/time -l  java -jar
>> target/hello-world-0.1.0-SNAPSHOT-standalone.jar
>> Hello, World!
>> Goodbye...
>> 1.20 real 2.47 user 0.24 sys
>>409  maximum resident set size (MB)
>> 100469  page reclaims
>>   3569  involuntary context switches
>>
>> # Static Executable
>> > /usr/bin/time -l  target/hello-world
>> Hello, World!
>> Goodbye...
>> 0.00 real 0.00 user 0.00 sys
>>  2  maximum resident set size (MB)
>>657  page reclaims
>>  4  involuntary context switches
>> So we see that the maximum RSS memory requirement *was reduced from 409
>> MB to 2 MB*. Yes, an improvement *over 200x!*  Note also that context
>> switches have been *reduced by 900x,* and page reclaims by *about 200x*.
>>
>> So, it is the combination of reduced startup time and vastly reduced
>> memory requirements that make standalone executables ideal for short-lived
>> tasks, especially in constrained environments such as serverless/lambda.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 7:54 AM Michiel Borkent 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Might be worth mentioning that lread and I are collecting information
>>> about GraalVM here:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/lread/clj-graal-docs
>>>
>>> --
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>>> 
>>> .
>>>
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Re: 100x startup for Clojure using GraalVM

[Nate Sutton]

Another way to achieve fast startup is to compile clojurescript to a nodejs
target and then use the nodejs library called pkg to bundle the nodejs
binary with the script. I haven't timed it but it's an interesting
alternative.

On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 12:46 PM Colin Yates  wrote:

> Do we have any idea how that memory saving scales?
>
> I know a bunch of meta data isn’t needed as it is hotspot specific, but
> are there any other memory savings?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 12 Nov 2019, at 18:42, Alan Thompson  wrote:
>
> In my initial post, I failed to mention the huge memory savings achieved
> by the standalone executable (in addition to the startup time savings).
>
> Note that using *time* at the command line resolves to a shell built-in
> command. We can get more information from the standard Unix version of time:
> # JVM+UberJar
> > /usr/bin/time -l  java -jar
> target/hello-world-0.1.0-SNAPSHOT-standalone.jar
> Hello, World!
> Goodbye...
> 1.20 real 2.47 user 0.24 sys
>409  maximum resident set size (MB)
> 100469  page reclaims
>   3569  involuntary context switches
>
> # Static Executable
> > /usr/bin/time -l  target/hello-world
> Hello, World!
> Goodbye...
> 0.00 real 0.00 user 0.00 sys
>  2  maximum resident set size (MB)
>657  page reclaims
>  4  involuntary context switches
> So we see that the maximum RSS memory requirement *was reduced from 409
> MB to 2 MB*. Yes, an improvement *over 200x!*  Note also that context
> switches have been *reduced by 900x,* and page reclaims by *about 200x*.
>
> So, it is the combination of reduced startup time and vastly reduced
> memory requirements that make standalone executables ideal for short-lived
> tasks, especially in constrained environments such as serverless/lambda.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 7:54 AM Michiel Borkent 
> wrote:
>
>> Might be worth mentioning that lread and I are collecting information
>> about GraalVM here:
>>
>> https://github.com/lread/clj-graal-docs
>>
>> --
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>> 
>> .
>>
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Re: 100x startup for Clojure using GraalVM

[Colin Yates]

Do we have any idea how that memory saving scales? 

I know a bunch of meta data isn’t needed as it is hotspot specific, but are 
there any other memory savings?

Sent from my iPhone

> On 12 Nov 2019, at 18:42, Alan Thompson  wrote:
> 
> In my initial post, I failed to mention the huge memory savings achieved by 
> the standalone executable (in addition to the startup time savings).  
> 
> Note that using time at the command line resolves to a shell built-in 
> command. We can get more information from the standard Unix version of time:
> # JVM+UberJar
> > /usr/bin/time -l  java -jar target/hello-world-0.1.0-SNAPSHOT-standalone.jar
> Hello, World!
> Goodbye...
> 1.20 real 2.47 user 0.24 sys
>409  maximum resident set size (MB)
> 100469  page reclaims
>   3569  involuntary context switches
> 
> # Static Executable
> > /usr/bin/time -l  target/hello-world
> Hello, World!
> Goodbye...
> 0.00 real 0.00 user 0.00 sys
>  2  maximum resident set size (MB)
>657  page reclaims
>  4  involuntary context switches
> So we see that the maximum RSS memory requirement was reduced from 409 MB to 
> 2 MB. Yes, an improvement over 200x!  Note also that context switches have 
> been reduced by 900x, and page reclaims by about 200x.
> 
> So, it is the combination of reduced startup time and vastly reduced memory 
> requirements that make standalone executables ideal for short-lived tasks, 
> especially in constrained environments such as serverless/lambda.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 7:54 AM Michiel Borkent  
>> wrote:
>> Might be worth mentioning that lread and I are collecting information about 
>> GraalVM here:
>> 
>> https://github.com/lread/clj-graal-docs
>> 
>> -- 
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> 
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Re: 100x startup for Clojure using GraalVM

[Alan Thompson]

In my initial post, I failed to mention the huge memory savings achieved by
the standalone executable (in addition to the startup time savings).

Note that using *time* at the command line resolves to a shell built-in
command. We can get more information from the standard Unix version of time:
# JVM+UberJar
> /usr/bin/time -l  java -jar
target/hello-world-0.1.0-SNAPSHOT-standalone.jar
Hello, World!
Goodbye...
1.20 real 2.47 user 0.24 sys
   409  maximum resident set size (MB)
100469  page reclaims
  3569  involuntary context switches

# Static Executable
> /usr/bin/time -l  target/hello-world
Hello, World!
Goodbye...
0.00 real 0.00 user 0.00 sys
 2  maximum resident set size (MB)
   657  page reclaims
 4  involuntary context switches
So we see that the maximum RSS memory requirement *was reduced from 409 MB
to 2 MB*. Yes, an improvement *over 200x!*  Note also that context switches
have been *reduced by 900x,* and page reclaims by *about 200x*.

So, it is the combination of reduced startup time and vastly reduced memory
requirements that make standalone executables ideal for short-lived tasks,
especially in constrained environments such as serverless/lambda.



On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 7:54 AM Michiel Borkent 
wrote:

> Might be worth mentioning that lread and I are collecting information
> about GraalVM here:
>
> https://github.com/lread/clj-graal-docs
>
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Re: 100x startup for Clojure using GraalVM

[Michiel Borkent]

Might be worth mentioning that lread and I are collecting information about 
GraalVM here:

https://github.com/lread/clj-graal-docs

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Re: 100x startup for Clojure using GraalVM

['Gerard Klijs' via Clojure]

You probably aware of this, but in case you don't. Running JVM as native image 
does start up faster, but throughput is less and latency is higher than running 
on the JVM.

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Re: 100x startup for Clojure using GraalVM

[Kim Kinnear]

I have found the same improvements with graalVM binaries!  It is amazing!

I was just testing zprint before releasing it, and here are the numbers for 
a moderately sized program to start on a 2012 MacBook Air:

>java -jar zprint-filter-0.5.3 same as above using appcds  1.160s

>zprintm-0.5.3 http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
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