Re: 2 links for beginners
http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html a prophetic writing ... great ! thank you mike. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: 2 links for beginners
Here's a nice commentary by fogus on Yegge's piece: http://blog.fogus.me/2009/02/06/yegge-clojure-arc-and-lolita-or-days-of-future-past/ For all intents and purposes, Clojure’s creator Rich Hickey is Arc’s Torvalds quipped on by Mr. Yegge. On Aug 5, 8:08 am, faenvie fanny.aen...@gmx.de wrote: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html a prophetic writing ... great ! thank you mike. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: 2 links for beginners
That is the most unsubstantiated, moronic piece of writing I've ever read in my life. I can't really tell what he's attacking, he's just swinging some dick-shaped sword around trying to hit stuff. i do not agree ... its clear that the article is a rant, does not go deep and misses important facts (does not mention any of the great features that clojure implements). but he unerringly focuses on the most critical point of clojure: its dependency on a host-runtime and a host-language. to abstract away from esp. java-language seems an crucial thing ... and moves like clojure in clojure address this. jvm7's dynamic-language-support will also mitigate that point. one thing i would like to know is: what are the advantages of common-lisp running on a lisp-machine compared to clojure running on the jvm ? have a successful time -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: 2 links for beginners
Steve Yegge is badly mis-informed. Large real programs have been written entirely in lisp. I am the lead developer on Axiom which is a very large lisp project (about 1 million things of code) to do computer algebra. The help system and graphics were implemented in C but browsers did not exist at the time (1970s). These are being reimplemented in lisp using Firefox and the canvas facility. In the past I helped develop a product for building rule-based programs which was sold by IBM. It was entirely in lisp. I helped develop an expert system (FAME, a Finance and Marketing Expert) to price and sell IBM mainframe hardware. It was written entirely in lisp. I developed a language (KROPS) which was a symmetric representation of a knowledge language (KREP, Knowledge Representation) and a rule-based language (OPS5 A rule-based language). It was entirely in lisp. I developed a robot planning program to build and assemble objects from their computer-aided design descriptions (BOXER - A Design- to-Build system). It was entirely in lisp. Those are the systems I personally helped develop in lisp. I know of many more large lisp programs. Google just bought a company that developed in lisp. I have worked commercially in over 60 languages. Lisp is, by far, the fastest, easiest, and most flexible language. I am currently working in Java to re-implement an algorithm I prototyped in lisp. If I replace all of the required curly-braces and semicolons in Java with parens it turns out that the Java program has more parens than the lisp program. The lisp program is 20 lines, the Java program has crossed 100 lines and is still growing. Non-lispers often complain that there are a lack of lisp libraries. But if I contrast the lisp code I wrote with the Java code I find that I need things in Java that I don't need in lisp. For instance: In Java I need a graph library (JGraphT, about 10,000 lines of code if I remove comments). But in lisp I just embed the graph as part of the code making circular structures. In Java I need factory objects, visitors, and other such pieces of design patterns. In lisp, I have never needed to write a factory. The whole visitor pattern becomes a 1-line (map...) call. To a lisper design patterns are like dress patterns in sewing. If you can't sew (program) you can still make something to use by copying a pattern. But you can hardly consider yourself a Taylor (programmer). So, yes, lisp does not HAVE a lot of libraries. But what people miss is that lisp doesn't NEED libraries. Why have a graph library when you can just embed the graph naturally in the data? When I wear my Java hat I search for libraries to do what I want. When I wear my lisp hat I simply do what I need. I can't remember when I needed a library. So, to a lisper, libraries have the flavor of crutches. Having a large set of libraries (crutches) is not a feature. I won't go on about macros (where Steve has no idea what he is talking about) or CLOS (where Steve has no idea what he is talking about) or any of the other points he tries to make. Steve Yegge is clearly not a lisper. On the subject of lisp, I would not consider him an authority worth quoting. Instead I recommend watching the youtube MIT course on the Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY Tim Daly faenvie wrote: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html a prophetic writing ... great ! thank you mike. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: 2 links for beginners
faenvie wrote: That is the most unsubstantiated, moronic piece of writing I've ever read in my life. I can't really tell what he's attacking, he's just swinging some dick-shaped sword around trying to hit stuff. i do not agree ... its clear that the article is a rant, does not go deep and misses important facts (does not mention any of the great features that clojure implements). but he unerringly focuses on the most critical point of clojure: its dependency on a host-runtime and a host-language. to abstract away from esp. java-language seems an crucial thing ... and moves like clojure in clojure address this. jvm7's dynamic-language-support will also mitigate that point. one thing i would like to know is: what are the advantages of common-lisp running on a lisp-machine compared to clojure running on the jvm ? have a successful time Well, on a Symbolics lisp machine, which I used for a couple years you could hit an error which would pop you into emacs at the point of the error. You could edit the file to correct the error and then continue the computation from the point of failure with the new code. The Symbolics machine (its kittens all the way down...) gave me the insight that one of the most important parts of programming is the time it takes to close the loop. Start from the point of failure, find the failure in source code, fix the failure, recompile, and re-execute. Measure the time that takes. Call this cycle the OODA loop (after the military acronym). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop On a Symbolics machine, the OODA loop takes seconds. In Java it can take many minutes to an hour or more. Common lisp on stock hardware takes about a factor of 10 less than Java. Your OODA loop time may vary. But the important point is that this OODA loop is a vital measure of how productive a language and its environment can be. By any measure, the Symbolics lisp machine was exceptional. In Clojure I find that I'm constantly struggling with something to do with the impedance mismatch between the Clojure code and the Java code. A large part of this is due to my lack of experience in Clojure but I find that my OODA loop takes a long time. I can code in either language but it is the mixture of the two that seems to be the source of my troubles. Measure your OODA loop in all the languages you know. See which one cycles fastest. I'd bet that's your favorite language. Tim Daly -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: 2 links for beginners
On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 12:31 AM, Tim Daly d...@axiom-developer.org wrote: Measure your OODA loop in all the languages you know. See which one cycles fastest. I'd bet that's your favorite language. Excellent observation! Definitely explains why, for all its lack of performance and minor quirks, ruby is still my favourite language. martin -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: 2 links for beginners
That is the most unsubstantiated, moronic piece of writing I've ever read in my life. I can't really tell what he's attacking, he's just swinging some dick-shaped sword around trying to hit stuff. -Fred -- Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers. On Aug 3, 2010, at 6:30 AM, faenvie wrote: 2. an article to read after 1. IMO that is useful as an antitoxin for beginners: http://imagine27.com/articles/2009-08-19-011225_clojure_the_false_lisp.html because excitement is always a bad thing ... isn't it ? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: 2 links for beginners
The artical is really good for people you like to jump in headfirst. I'm more of a book first guy but I told my, soon to be Clojure Programmer :) , friend about that article. Thats why nobody likes (liked) the Lisp compunity. Read the Comments http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42 On Aug 3, 4:05 pm, Frederick Polgardy f...@polgardy.com wrote: That is the most unsubstantiated, moronic piece of writing I've ever read in my life. I can't really tell what he's attacking, he's just swinging some dick-shaped sword around trying to hit stuff. -Fred -- Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers. On Aug 3, 2010, at 6:30 AM, faenvie wrote: 2. an article to read after 1. IMO that is useful as an antitoxin for beginners: http://imagine27.com/articles/2009-08-19-011225_clojure_the_false_lis... because excitement is always a bad thing ... isn't it ? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: 2 links for beginners
On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 07:28:39 -0700 (PDT) nickikt nick...@gmail.com wrote: The artical is really good for people you like to jump in headfirst. I'm more of a book first guy but I told my, soon to be Clojure Programmer :) , friend about that article. Thats why nobody likes (liked) the Lisp compunity. Read the Comments http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42 Even LISPers: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html mike -- Mike Meyer m...@mired.org http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: 2 links for beginners
Fred, That is the most unsubstantiated, moronic piece of writing I've ever read in my life. I can't really tell what he's attacking, he's just swinging some dick-shaped sword around trying to hit stuff. It's OK, it's alright. Naysayers will always have some issue to pick on, and when they don't have any (as in this case), they will resort to such meaningless rants. Let's set an example by completely ignoring such unhelpful yet poisonous people. Regards, BG -- Baishampayan Ghose b.ghose at gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
