Re: Simulations in Clojure/Clojurescript

[Michael Nardell]

On Saturday, January 27, 2018 at 6:11:59 PM UTC-8, John Newman wrote:
>
> You might want to look into Chris Granger's work on component entity 
> systems in clojurescript: 
> http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/12/11/anatomy-of-a-knockout/
>

Right! Thanks for reminding me about that. I think I watched his talk a 
while back, and saw it as a natural way of modeling some of the systems I 
am interested in. 

Mike

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Re: Simulations in Clojure/Clojurescript

[John Newman]

You might want to look into Chris Granger's work on component entity
systems in clojurescript:
http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/12/11/anatomy-of-a-knockout/

Light Table went on to have a similar component-entity layout internally.

On Jan 10, 2018 6:12 PM, "Michael Nardell"  wrote:

> Greetings :: I am new to Clojure and have not really gotten my feet wet
> with Clojurescript yet. The advice I always give someone when leaning
> programming or a new language is to pick a project that they are interested
> in and dive in. For me, that project would be creating educational
> simulations that model complex systems.
>
> Part of my challenge with this as a project is that it is leading me
> towards programming (at least partially) with objects to model the discrete
> components in these systems. Arguably simulations are one of the domains
> where objects are the right paradigm. The question I pose to the group is
> how to work with objects in Clojure, in a manner that "goes with the grain"
> of the language. Perhaps best to ground my question in a concrete example:
>
> I had created simulations / visualizations of Hubel and Wiesel's model of
> the  center-surround receptive fields in the retina. My past simulations I
> used a collection of objects to model  photo receptors (i.e. rods/cones),
> horizontal, bi-polar cells, connected together to represent the behavior of
> either on-center or off-center receptive fields. Kind of a simple neural
> network. Would like to preserve the object nature of nodes in the network,
> since the nodes have state and should be represented by graphics in a gui.
> Ultimately I would like to move toward a "constructor kit" approach that
> would allow students and teachers to model and simulate a whole variety of
> various systems that can be represented as a network of processes with
> feed-forward and feed-back connections.
>
> Interested to know of any useful examples and guidance for doing objects
> the Clojure/Clojurescript way. Certainly one of the examples I want to look
> at closely is the Ant Hill that Rich Hickey demonstrated.
>
> As is the case with a neophyte - any advice is well appreciated.
>
> Mike
>
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Re: Simulations in Clojure/Clojurescript

[Christopher Small]

I'll second looking at Vega and Vega-lite. Grammar of graphics is wonderful.

With regards to simulation on Cljs, keep in mind that JS is limited in
numerical precision relative to the JVM, and this can be important in some
simulation contexts. Just make sure you are aware of the probabilistic
implications for your application.

Chris


On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 4:54 PM, Tiago Antão  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Have a look at Vega and Vega lite for visualization... Amazing chart
> library
>
> On Jan 27, 2018 11:48 AM, "Michael Nardell"  wrote:
>
>> Tiago ::Thanks, for your input. Worth more considerably more than $00.02
>> for me right now. Since the last week or so, I have been diving into
>> ClojureScript. In particular I am loving exploring D3.js, with an
>> interactive, live coding experience. I am not sure if I should admit this
>> in public.. but I actually really miss Macromedia Director + Lingo. Offered
>> an interactive environment for building highly visual simulations and then
>> distributing on the web. I am seeing ClojureScript + FigWheel + D3.js
>> (and/or other viz libraries) as a way to get that experience back.
>>
>> MIke
>>
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Re: Simulations in Clojure/Clojurescript

[Tiago Antão]

Hi,

Have a look at Vega and Vega lite for visualization... Amazing chart library

On Jan 27, 2018 11:48 AM, "Michael Nardell"  wrote:

> Tiago ::Thanks, for your input. Worth more considerably more than $00.02
> for me right now. Since the last week or so, I have been diving into
> ClojureScript. In particular I am loving exploring D3.js, with an
> interactive, live coding experience. I am not sure if I should admit this
> in public.. but I actually really miss Macromedia Director + Lingo. Offered
> an interactive environment for building highly visual simulations and then
> distributing on the web. I am seeing ClojureScript + FigWheel + D3.js
> (and/or other viz libraries) as a way to get that experience back.
>
> MIke
>
> --
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Re: Simulations in Clojure/Clojurescript

[Michael Nardell]

Tiago ::Thanks, for your input. Worth more considerably more than $00.02 
for me right now. Since the last week or so, I have been diving into 
ClojureScript. In particular I am loving exploring D3.js, with an 
interactive, live coding experience. I am not sure if I should admit this 
in public.. but I actually really miss Macromedia Director + Lingo. Offered 
an interactive environment for building highly visual simulations and then 
distributing on the web. I am seeing ClojureScript + FigWheel + D3.js 
(and/or other viz libraries) as a way to get that experience back. 

MIke

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Re: Simulations in Clojure/Clojurescript

[Tiago Antão]

My $0.02,

I was a very early Clojure adopter, but I stopped using it when Oracle
bought Sun (I left the JVM completely at that time). I am currently using
ClojureScript a lot - for the last 6 months or so, thus not the most
experienced programmer.

Most of my usage is doing scientific simulations (genetics and epidemiology
in my case). I published one simulator in Scala and Java. Done quite a few
in Python+C and currently working in JavaScript + ClojureScript.

My observations here come mostly from my Scala work and my current work in
JS+CLJS.

First observation is that a lot of scientific simulation code is highly
imperative (not saying if that is good or bad), so lots of the mentality in
the field is geared towards that. Still lots of Fortran floating around,
for example.

In many cases performance is really really important. This tends to be CPU
bound, rarely disk or network. Sometimes memory might be a consideration.

My general strategy is to do the computationally expensive core in a lower
level language. For example, my Scala simulator had the core written in
Java. My ClojureScript stuff has a JS core (and in the future will have
parts in C). The Python stuff had C/C++ code.

The higher level language (Scala or ClojureScript) provided the interfaces
to manipulate the lower level code in a declarative, elegant and functional
way (actually DSLish way).

Tiago


On 10 January 2018 at 16:08, Michael Nardell  wrote:

> Greetings :: I am new to Clojure and have not really gotten my feet wet
> with Clojurescript yet. The advice I always give someone when leaning
> programming or a new language is to pick a project that they are interested
> in and dive in. For me, that project would be creating educational
> simulations that model complex systems.
>
> Part of my challenge with this as a project is that it is leading me
> towards programming (at least partially) with objects to model the discrete
> components in these systems. Arguably simulations are one of the domains
> where objects are the right paradigm. The question I pose to the group is
> how to work with objects in Clojure, in a manner that "goes with the grain"
> of the language. Perhaps best to ground my question in a concrete example:
>
> I had created simulations / visualizations of Hubel and Wiesel's model of
> the  center-surround receptive fields in the retina. My past simulations I
> used a collection of objects to model  photo receptors (i.e. rods/cones),
> horizontal, bi-polar cells, connected together to represent the behavior of
> either on-center or off-center receptive fields. Kind of a simple neural
> network. Would like to preserve the object nature of nodes in the network,
> since the nodes have state and should be represented by graphics in a gui.
> Ultimately I would like to move toward a "constructor kit" approach that
> would allow students and teachers to model and simulate a whole variety of
> various systems that can be represented as a network of processes with
> feed-forward and feed-back connections.
>
> Interested to know of any useful examples and guidance for doing objects
> the Clojure/Clojurescript way. Certainly one of the examples I want to look
> at closely is the Ant Hill that Rich Hickey demonstrated.
>
> As is the case with a neophyte - any advice is well appreciated.
>
> Mike
>
> --
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-- 
Tiago Antao
Scientific and HPC programmer
http://tiago.org
https://github.com/tiagoantao/

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Re: Simulations in Clojure/Clojurescript

[Christopher Small]

Joy of Clojure is a wonderful book.

Sounds like you have the right idea.

Enoy!


On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 9:55 AM, Michael Nardell  wrote:

> Bobby :: Thanks for the recommended reading, I am finding it useful for
> pointing me in a new direction in my thinking. Also, finding Chapter 9 in *The
> Joy of Clojure, *where it discusses Records and Protocols, helpful
> guidance. In particular, it seems like I could start by using 'plain-old'
> maps and functions, and easily 'slot-in' Records/ Protocols when/if  design
> or performance considerations warrant their introduction.
>
> Mike
>
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Re: Simulations in Clojure/Clojurescript

[Michael Nardell]

Bobby :: Thanks for the recommended reading, I am finding it useful for 
pointing me in a new direction in my thinking. Also, finding Chapter 9 in *The 
Joy of Clojure, *where it discusses Records and Protocols, helpful 
guidance. In particular, it seems like I could start by using 'plain-old'  
maps and functions, and easily 'slot-in' Records/ Protocols when/if  design 
or performance considerations warrant their introduction. 

Mike

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Re: Simulations in Clojure/Clojurescript

[Bobby Eickhoff]

I don't have any examples to provide, but I would highly recommend reading 
through Rich's essay on Identity and State: https://clojure.org/about/state

Bobby

On Thursday, January 11, 2018 at 12:43:00 AM UTC-5, Michael Nardell wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 4:56:24 PM UTC-8, Christopher Small 
> wrote:
>
> You may be right about an object-oriented approach being the most natural 
>> here. But, I'd encourage you to keep an open mind. Clojure has this 
>> particular way of encouraging you to and rewarding you for describing your 
>> problem domain in terms of pain data, and writing program logic as (mostly) 
>> pure functions around that data. 
>>
>
> Chris :: Thanks, I am hoping that you are foretelling the path I will end 
> up following. That I start with an object approach, because that is what I 
> am familiar with and have used in the past. Then find new ways of thinking 
> about the problem through through functional and Clojure programming. I 
> think a good starting point, is as you recommend, substitute maps for 
> objects in my thinking in the problem domain. I can see that I could 
> actually set-up the simulation just so, and I will have completely captured 
> the model, frozen at time t=0. Then my challenge is to write a set of 
> functions that will transition the model to time t+1. At that point I am 
> done. 
>
> Mike
>

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Re: Simulations in Clojure/Clojurescript

[Michael Nardell]

On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 4:56:24 PM UTC-8, Christopher Small wrote:

You may be right about an object-oriented approach being the most natural 
> here. But, I'd encourage you to keep an open mind. Clojure has this 
> particular way of encouraging you to and rewarding you for describing your 
> problem domain in terms of pain data, and writing program logic as (mostly) 
> pure functions around that data. 
>

Chris :: Thanks, I am hoping that you are foretelling the path I will end 
up following. That I start with an object approach, because that is what I 
am familiar with and have used in the past. Then find new ways of thinking 
about the problem through through functional and Clojure programming. I 
think a good starting point, is as you recommend, substitute maps for 
objects in my thinking in the problem domain. I can see that I could 
actually set-up the simulation just so, and I will have completely captured 
the model, frozen at time t=0. Then my challenge is to write a set of 
functions that will transition the model to time t+1. At that point I am 
done. 

Mike

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Re: Simulations in Clojure/Clojurescript

[Christopher Small]

A Wize One once said

> Closures are the poor man's objects

It's easy to build "object-like" things in clojure. Just create a map 
pointing to whatever you like, including stateful things, like atoms. Then 
write functions which take that map and do stuff with it. Clojure's Records 
and Protocols are more formal ways of doing this, with added performance 
optimization and bidirectional polymophism, so they may be worth looking 
into. You may also want to take a look at spec.

You may be right about an object-oriented approach being the most natural 
here. But, I'd encourage you to keep an open mind. Clojure has this 
particular way of encouraging you to and rewarding you for describing your 
problem domain in terms of pain data, and writing program logic as (mostly) 
pure functions around that data. When statefulness is required, we're often 
careful about how we introduce it, and find ways to isolate it as much as 
possible from the non-stateful bits, thereby maximizing how much of the 
code we can keep pure. If you're already familiar with other functional 
languages, I may be saying nothing too new here. But Clojure still has a 
pretty unique take on the data-driven paradigm, so you may find yourself 
thinking about things in new ways. Even if you end up doing something 
pretty object-oriented, think about how you can steer things in this 
general direction, and other ways you might tackle the problem.

Good luck

Chris





On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 3:13:00 PM UTC-8, Michael Nardell wrote:
>
> Greetings :: I am new to Clojure and have not really gotten my feet wet 
> with Clojurescript yet. The advice I always give someone when leaning 
> programming or a new language is to pick a project that they are interested 
> in and dive in. For me, that project would be creating educational 
> simulations that model complex systems. 
>
> Part of my challenge with this as a project is that it is leading me 
> towards programming (at least partially) with objects to model the discrete 
> components in these systems. Arguably simulations are one of the domains 
> where objects are the right paradigm. The question I pose to the group is 
> how to work with objects in Clojure, in a manner that "goes with the grain" 
> of the language. Perhaps best to ground my question in a concrete example:
>
> I had created simulations / visualizations of Hubel and Wiesel's model of 
> the  center-surround receptive fields in the retina. My past simulations I 
> used a collection of objects to model  photo receptors (i.e. rods/cones),  
> horizontal, bi-polar cells, connected together to represent the behavior of 
> either on-center or off-center receptive fields. Kind of a simple neural 
> network. Would like to preserve the object nature of nodes in the network, 
> since the nodes have state and should be represented by graphics in a gui. 
> Ultimately I would like to move toward a "constructor kit" approach that 
> would allow students and teachers to model and simulate a whole variety of 
> various systems that can be represented as a network of processes with 
> feed-forward and feed-back connections. 
>
> Interested to know of any useful examples and guidance for doing objects 
> the Clojure/Clojurescript way. Certainly one of the examples I want to look 
> at closely is the Ant Hill that Rich Hickey demonstrated. 
>
> As is the case with a neophyte - any advice is well appreciated. 
>
> Mike
>
>

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Simulations in Clojure/Clojurescript

[Michael Nardell]

Greetings :: I am new to Clojure and have not really gotten my feet wet 
with Clojurescript yet. The advice I always give someone when leaning 
programming or a new language is to pick a project that they are interested 
in and dive in. For me, that project would be creating educational 
simulations that model complex systems. 

Part of my challenge with this as a project is that it is leading me 
towards programming (at least partially) with objects to model the discrete 
components in these systems. Arguably simulations are one of the domains 
where objects are the right paradigm. The question I pose to the group is 
how to work with objects in Clojure, in a manner that "goes with the grain" 
of the language. Perhaps best to ground my question in a concrete example:

I had created simulations / visualizations of Hubel and Wiesel's model of 
the  center-surround receptive fields in the retina. My past simulations I 
used a collection of objects to model  photo receptors (i.e. rods/cones),  
horizontal, bi-polar cells, connected together to represent the behavior of 
either on-center or off-center receptive fields. Kind of a simple neural 
network. Would like to preserve the object nature of nodes in the network, 
since the nodes have state and should be represented by graphics in a gui. 
Ultimately I would like to move toward a "constructor kit" approach that 
would allow students and teachers to model and simulate a whole variety of 
various systems that can be represented as a network of processes with 
feed-forward and feed-back connections. 

Interested to know of any useful examples and guidance for doing objects 
the Clojure/Clojurescript way. Certainly one of the examples I want to look 
at closely is the Ant Hill that Rich Hickey demonstrated. 

As is the case with a neophyte - any advice is well appreciated. 

Mike

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