Re: seesaw's beautiful docstrings

2012-07-27 Thread John Gabriele
On Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:16:52 AM UTC-4, Tassilo Horn wrote:

 Laurent PETIT writes: 

  -Is there a way write the docs in a separate place (different section 
  of the document or different document altogether)? 

 Sure. 

 --8---cut here---start-8--- 
 (defn plus1 [x] (+ x 1)) 
 (alter-meta! #'plus1 assoc :doc Adds one to x.) 
 --8---cut here---end---8---


Wow, that's nice...

Reminds me of the paths that Python and Perl have taken regarding this 
issue.

Python goes with having very short docstrings, but then longer separate 
documentation available elsewhere. I'm personally not crazy about this 
approach, because I usually end up wanting to know more than the rather 
skimpy docstrings tell me.

Perl 5 doesn't have docstrings, but they do have an embedded POD markup 
doc format, the content of which often serves as docstrings (though POD is 
also used for longer external docs as well). I'm much happier with the 
richer Perl 5 docs, but the issue of having all those docs clog up your 
code had led to a best practice of just moving them all to the end of the 
file.

Tassilo's note that you can use `alter-meta!` for roughly the same thing 
seems similar to the Perl 5 approach giving you the best of both worlds:

  * you end up with more complete docstrings (making your users happier),
  * that don't clog up your code (or require code-folding to achieve that 
end), and
  * that still go in the same source file (thus keeping your code and api 
docs together).

I'd imagine that it wouldn't be too difficult to create a tool to extract 
docstrings out into alter-metas at the bottom, or the reverse --- gather up 
alter-metas at the bottom and stitch them into their respective function 
defns, if that's your preference.

I like it. Make your docstrings as long as they need to be (perhaps add 
some examples?). Even format them in markdown to make them more readable in 
the repl.

---John

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Re: seesaw's beautiful docstrings

2012-07-26 Thread Tassilo Horn
Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com writes:

Hi!

 Third option : use an editor/IDE which allows you to fold docs (one
 by one / fold all / unfold all), and / or to navigate in your source
 code via code outlines

BTW, I just noticed that you can use Emacs' hs-minor-mode to fold
top-level forms.  For example, when you fold

  (defmacro when-not
Evaluates test. If logical false, evaluates body in an implicit do.
{:added 1.0}
[test  body]
  (list 'if test nil (cons 'do body)))

what's displayed is just

  (defmacro when-not...)

That's pretty nice, but its not very clojure specific.  For example, if
metadata precedes the var name, it doesn't work.

  (def 
   ^{:arglists '([coll])
 :doc Return the last item in coll, in linear time
 :added 1.0
 :static true}
   last (fn ^:static last [s]
  (if (next s)
(recur (next s))
(first s

becomes just

  (def ...)

But hideshow.el has some customization possibilities, so probably it
could be tuned to do more clojure-specific folding.

Bye,
Tassilo

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seesaw's beautiful docstrings

2012-07-25 Thread Dimitrios Jim Piliouras
Hi all,

I've just watched Dave Ray's mini demo of seesaw on infoQ and what amazed
me (apart from the actual library) was the gorgeous documentation that is
attached to all the functions. Dave has done an amazing job - even though
it is essentially a swing wrapper you can get a lot done without knowing
any swing at all!!! This is pretty good stuff...I was wondering if there is
an easier way to generate docstrings like that without alligning spaces and
tab manuallys and more importantly without inlining them with the
functions.  I know it sounds a bit silly but if your source code is
dominated by docs then it is really hard to navigate up and down...I am
generally trying to keep my docs minimal with only plain english and rarely
more than 3-4 lines. However, after seeing what Dave has done I feel rather
jealous! Whenever I tried to produce docs like his the result is rather
ugly unless i systematically fiddle with it through trial and error...So in
essence 2 questions:

-Is there a way write the docs in a separate place (different section of
the document or different document altogether)?
-Is there another way to style your documentation text other than manual
evolutionary means (trial and error)?

Just in case Dave is lurking around,
-You actually wrote and styled  all that documentation by hand?

Jim

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Re: seesaw's beautiful docstrings

2012-07-25 Thread Laurent PETIT
2012/7/25 Dimitrios Jim Piliouras jimpil1...@gmail.com

 Hi all,

 I've just watched Dave Ray's mini demo of seesaw on infoQ and what amazed
 me (apart from the actual library) was the gorgeous documentation that is
 attached to all the functions. Dave has done an amazing job - even though
 it is essentially a swing wrapper you can get a lot done without knowing
 any swing at all!!! This is pretty good stuff...I was wondering if there is
 an easier way to generate docstrings like that without alligning spaces and
 tab manuallys and more importantly without inlining them with the
 functions.  I know it sounds a bit silly but if your source code is
 dominated by docs then it is really hard to navigate up and down...I am
 generally trying to keep my docs minimal with only plain english and rarely
 more than 3-4 lines. However, after seeing what Dave has done I feel rather
 jealous! Whenever I tried to produce docs like his the result is rather
 ugly unless i systematically fiddle with it through trial and error...So in
 essence 2 questions:

 -Is there a way write the docs in a separate place (different section of
 the document or different document altogether)?
 -Is there another way to style your documentation text other than manual
 evolutionary means (trial and error)?


Third option : use an editor/IDE which allows you to fold docs (one by
one / fold all / unfold all), and / or to navigate in your source code via
code outlines



 Just in case Dave is lurking around,
 -You actually wrote and styled  all that documentation by hand?

 Jim

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Re: seesaw's beautiful docstrings

2012-07-25 Thread Dimitrios Jim Piliouras
Hmmm I see...you're saying that this is all due to my minimalistic repl
enviroment (raw terminal embedded in gedit + leiningen2)...I know eclipse
does folding and stuff but what about when you want to hit enter to break
a line and then you want to align some other sentence underneath? will it
show on the raw terminal exactly as it shows on the eclipse text-editor?
I'm asking because in gedit the only way i can predict where things go is
whenever i have a continuous string (no line breaks)...


Jim



On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.comwrote:

 2012/7/25 Dimitrios Jim Piliouras jimpil1...@gmail.com

 Hi all,

 I've just watched Dave Ray's mini demo of seesaw on infoQ and what amazed
 me (apart from the actual library) was the gorgeous documentation that is
 attached to all the functions. Dave has done an amazing job - even though
 it is essentially a swing wrapper you can get a lot done without knowing
 any swing at all!!! This is pretty good stuff...I was wondering if there is
 an easier way to generate docstrings like that without alligning spaces and
 tab manuallys and more importantly without inlining them with the
 functions.  I know it sounds a bit silly but if your source code is
 dominated by docs then it is really hard to navigate up and down...I am
 generally trying to keep my docs minimal with only plain english and rarely
 more than 3-4 lines. However, after seeing what Dave has done I feel rather
 jealous! Whenever I tried to produce docs like his the result is rather
 ugly unless i systematically fiddle with it through trial and error...So in
 essence 2 questions:

 -Is there a way write the docs in a separate place (different section of
 the document or different document altogether)?
 -Is there another way to style your documentation text other than manual
 evolutionary means (trial and error)?


 Third option : use an editor/IDE which allows you to fold docs (one by
 one / fold all / unfold all), and / or to navigate in your source code via
 code outlines



 Just in case Dave is lurking around,
 -You actually wrote and styled  all that documentation by hand?


 Jim

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Re: seesaw's beautiful docstrings

2012-07-25 Thread Meikel Brandmeyer (kotarak)
Hi,

you should choose a fixed width font. Then you can line up sentences 
without problems using spaces. Inconvenient, but doable.

Kind regards
Meikel

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Re: seesaw's beautiful docstrings

2012-07-25 Thread Tassilo Horn
Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com writes:

 -Is there a way write the docs in a separate place (different section
 of the document or different document altogether)?

Sure.

--8---cut here---start-8---
(defn plus1 [x] (+ x 1))
(alter-meta! #'plus1 assoc :doc Adds one to x.)
--8---cut here---end---8---

 Third option : use an editor/IDE which allows you to fold docs (one
 by one / fold all / unfold all), and / or to navigate in your source
 code via code outlines

That's probably the better approach.

Bye,
Tassilo

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Re: seesaw's beautiful docstrings

2012-07-25 Thread Laurent PETIT
2012/7/25 Dimitrios Jim Piliouras jimpil1...@gmail.com

 Hmmm I see...you're saying that this is all due to my minimalistic repl
 enviroment (raw terminal embedded in gedit + leiningen2)...I know eclipse
 does folding and stuff but what about when you want to hit enter to break
 a line and then you want to align some other sentence underneath? will it
 show on the raw terminal exactly as it shows on the eclipse text-editor?
 I'm asking because in gedit the only way i can predict where things go is
 whenever i have a continuous string (no line breaks)...


tbh, Counterclockwise does not yet have folding (tho it is a WIP in a
contributor's branch I haven't yet had the time to review - shame on me)




 Jim




 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Laurent PETIT 
 laurent.pe...@gmail.comwrote:

 2012/7/25 Dimitrios Jim Piliouras jimpil1...@gmail.com

 Hi all,

 I've just watched Dave Ray's mini demo of seesaw on infoQ and what
 amazed me (apart from the actual library) was the gorgeous documentation
 that is attached to all the functions. Dave has done an amazing job - even
 though it is essentially a swing wrapper you can get a lot done without
 knowing any swing at all!!! This is pretty good stuff...I was wondering if
 there is an easier way to generate docstrings like that without alligning
 spaces and tab manuallys and more importantly without inlining them with
 the functions.  I know it sounds a bit silly but if your source code is
 dominated by docs then it is really hard to navigate up and down...I am
 generally trying to keep my docs minimal with only plain english and rarely
 more than 3-4 lines. However, after seeing what Dave has done I feel rather
 jealous! Whenever I tried to produce docs like his the result is rather
 ugly unless i systematically fiddle with it through trial and error...So in
 essence 2 questions:

 -Is there a way write the docs in a separate place (different section of
 the document or different document altogether)?
 -Is there another way to style your documentation text other than manual
 evolutionary means (trial and error)?


 Third option : use an editor/IDE which allows you to fold docs (one by
 one / fold all / unfold all), and / or to navigate in your source code via
 code outlines



 Just in case Dave is lurking around,
 -You actually wrote and styled  all that documentation by hand?


 Jim

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Re: seesaw's beautiful docstrings

2012-07-25 Thread Dimitrios Jim Piliouras
ooo thanks Tassilo...I knew that the docstring is stored as metadata but I
did not know I could mutate it after the binding is set..this is very cool
on its own!

As far as IDEs go i will have a look around even though i was quite happy
with my minimal setup...I also tend to use clooj when on the road which is
steadily getting better...I gave ccw several chances as I was totally in
love with eclipse in my java days, but even though I do like the editor and
all the clever things it can do, I still cannot get my head round how to
work efficiently on the eclipse repl...I specifically remember spawning a
new repl every time i was loading a namespace which seemed very odd cos i
had to close them all at the end... emacs on the other hand seems more like
a religion rather than an editor!!! The thing is my timetable atm does not
allow any deviations and it would big deviation if i was to decide to learn
emacs any time soon

thank you both for your precious time and suggestions... cheers!

Jim

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.comwrote:



 2012/7/25 Dimitrios Jim Piliouras jimpil1...@gmail.com

 Hmmm I see...you're saying that this is all due to my minimalistic repl
 enviroment (raw terminal embedded in gedit + leiningen2)...I know eclipse
 does folding and stuff but what about when you want to hit enter to break
 a line and then you want to align some other sentence underneath? will it
 show on the raw terminal exactly as it shows on the eclipse text-editor?
 I'm asking because in gedit the only way i can predict where things go is
 whenever i have a continuous string (no line breaks)...


 tbh, Counterclockwise does not yet have folding (tho it is a WIP in a
 contributor's branch I haven't yet had the time to review - shame on me)




 Jim




 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Laurent PETIT 
 laurent.pe...@gmail.comwrote:

 2012/7/25 Dimitrios Jim Piliouras jimpil1...@gmail.com

 Hi all,

 I've just watched Dave Ray's mini demo of seesaw on infoQ and what
 amazed me (apart from the actual library) was the gorgeous documentation
 that is attached to all the functions. Dave has done an amazing job - even
 though it is essentially a swing wrapper you can get a lot done without
 knowing any swing at all!!! This is pretty good stuff...I was wondering if
 there is an easier way to generate docstrings like that without alligning
 spaces and tab manuallys and more importantly without inlining them with
 the functions.  I know it sounds a bit silly but if your source code is
 dominated by docs then it is really hard to navigate up and down...I am
 generally trying to keep my docs minimal with only plain english and rarely
 more than 3-4 lines. However, after seeing what Dave has done I feel rather
 jealous! Whenever I tried to produce docs like his the result is rather
 ugly unless i systematically fiddle with it through trial and error...So in
 essence 2 questions:

 -Is there a way write the docs in a separate place (different section
 of the document or different document altogether)?
 -Is there another way to style your documentation text other than
 manual evolutionary means (trial and error)?


 Third option : use an editor/IDE which allows you to fold docs (one by
 one / fold all / unfold all), and / or to navigate in your source code via
 code outlines



 Just in case Dave is lurking around,
 -You actually wrote and styled  all that documentation by hand?


 Jim

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Re: seesaw's beautiful docstrings

2012-07-25 Thread Laurent PETIT
2012/7/25 Dimitrios Jim Piliouras jimpil1...@gmail.com

 ooo thanks Tassilo...I knew that the docstring is stored as metadata but I
 did not know I could mutate it after the binding is set..this is very cool
 on its own!

 As far as IDEs go i will have a look around even though i was quite happy
 with my minimal setup...I also tend to use clooj when on the road which is
 steadily getting better...I gave ccw several chances as I was totally in
 love with eclipse in my java days, but even though I do like the editor and
 all the clever things it can do, I still cannot get my head round how to
 work efficiently on the eclipse repl...I specifically remember spawning a
 new repl every time i was loading a namespace which seemed very odd cos i
 had to close them all at the end...


Then by all means give ccw another try


 emacs on the other hand seems more like a religion rather than an
 editor!!! The thing is my timetable atm does not allow any deviations and
 it would big deviation if i was to decide to learn emacs any time soon

 thank you both for your precious time and suggestions... cheers!

 Jim


 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.comwrote:



 2012/7/25 Dimitrios Jim Piliouras jimpil1...@gmail.com

 Hmmm I see...you're saying that this is all due to my minimalistic repl
 enviroment (raw terminal embedded in gedit + leiningen2)...I know eclipse
 does folding and stuff but what about when you want to hit enter to break
 a line and then you want to align some other sentence underneath? will it
 show on the raw terminal exactly as it shows on the eclipse text-editor?
 I'm asking because in gedit the only way i can predict where things go is
 whenever i have a continuous string (no line breaks)...


 tbh, Counterclockwise does not yet have folding (tho it is a WIP in a
 contributor's branch I haven't yet had the time to review - shame on me)




 Jim




 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 2012/7/25 Dimitrios Jim Piliouras jimpil1...@gmail.com

 Hi all,

 I've just watched Dave Ray's mini demo of seesaw on infoQ and what
 amazed me (apart from the actual library) was the gorgeous documentation
 that is attached to all the functions. Dave has done an amazing job - even
 though it is essentially a swing wrapper you can get a lot done without
 knowing any swing at all!!! This is pretty good stuff...I was wondering if
 there is an easier way to generate docstrings like that without alligning
 spaces and tab manuallys and more importantly without inlining them with
 the functions.  I know it sounds a bit silly but if your source code is
 dominated by docs then it is really hard to navigate up and down...I am
 generally trying to keep my docs minimal with only plain english and 
 rarely
 more than 3-4 lines. However, after seeing what Dave has done I feel 
 rather
 jealous! Whenever I tried to produce docs like his the result is rather
 ugly unless i systematically fiddle with it through trial and error...So 
 in
 essence 2 questions:

 -Is there a way write the docs in a separate place (different section
 of the document or different document altogether)?
 -Is there another way to style your documentation text other than
 manual evolutionary means (trial and error)?


 Third option : use an editor/IDE which allows you to fold docs (one
 by one / fold all / unfold all), and / or to navigate in your source code
 via code outlines



 Just in case Dave is lurking around,
 -You actually wrote and styled  all that documentation by hand?


 Jim

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Re: seesaw's beautiful docstrings

2012-07-25 Thread Dave Ray
For what it's worth, the docstrings are indeed hand-formatted, but that's
pretty easy with vim or any decent editor. The size of the docstrings is a
bit of a problem. At one point on Twitter Fogus suggested that Trammel
could help off-load documentation elsewhere, but I never was motivated
enough to pursue it.

Cheers,
Dave

On Wednesday, July 25, 2012, Laurent PETIT wrote:



 2012/7/25 Dimitrios Jim Piliouras jimpil1...@gmail.comjavascript:_e({}, 
 'cvml', 'jimpil1...@gmail.com');
 

 ooo thanks Tassilo...I knew that the docstring is stored as metadata but
 I did not know I could mutate it after the binding is set..this is very
 cool on its own!

 As far as IDEs go i will have a look around even though i was quite happy
 with my minimal setup...I also tend to use clooj when on the road which is
 steadily getting better...I gave ccw several chances as I was totally in
 love with eclipse in my java days, but even though I do like the editor and
 all the clever things it can do, I still cannot get my head round how to
 work efficiently on the eclipse repl...I specifically remember spawning a
 new repl every time i was loading a namespace which seemed very odd cos i
 had to close them all at the end...


 Then by all means give ccw another try


 emacs on the other hand seems more like a religion rather than an
 editor!!! The thing is my timetable atm does not allow any deviations and
 it would big deviation if i was to decide to learn emacs any time soon

 thank you both for your precious time and suggestions... cheers!

 Jim


 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.comwrote:



 2012/7/25 Dimitrios Jim Piliouras jimpil1...@gmail.com

 Hmmm I see...you're saying that this is all due to my minimalistic repl
 enviroment (raw terminal embedded in gedit + leiningen2)...I know eclipse
 does folding and stuff but what about when you want to hit enter to break
 a line and then you want to align some other sentence underneath? will it
 show on the raw terminal exactly as it shows on the eclipse text-editor?
 I'm asking because in gedit the only way i can predict where things go is
 whenever i have a continuous string (no line breaks)...


 tbh, Counterclockwise does not yet have folding (tho it is a WIP in a
 contributor's branch I haven't yet had the time to review - shame on me)




 Jim




 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Laurent PETIT 
 laurent.pe...@gmail.comwrote:

 2012/7/25 Dimitrios Jim Piliouras jimpil1...@gmail.com

 Hi all,

 I've just watched Dave Ray's mini demo of seesaw on infoQ and what amazed
 me (apart from the actual library) was the gorgeous documentation that is
 attached to all the functions. Dave has done an amazing job - even though
 it is essentially a swing wrapper you can get a lot done without knowing
 any swing at all!!! This is pretty good stuff...I was wondering if there is
 an easier way to generate docstrings like that without alligning spaces and
 tab manuallys and more importantly without inlining them with the
 functions.  I know it sounds a bit silly but if your source code is
 dominated by docs then it is really hard to navigate up and down...I am
 generally trying to keep my docs minimal with only plain english and rarely
 more than 3-4 lines. However, after seeing what Dave has done I feel rather
 jealous! Whenever I tried to produce docs like his the result is rather
 ugly unless i systematically fiddle with it through trial and error...So in
 essence 2 questions:

 -Is there a way write the docs in a separate place (different section of
 the document or different document altogether)?
 -Is there another way to style your documentation text other than manual
 evolutionary means (trial and error)?


 Third option : use an editor/IDE which allows you to fold docs (one by
 one / fold all / unfold all), and / or to navigate in your source code via
 code outlines



 Just in case Dave is lurking around,
 -You actually wrote and styled  all that documentation by hand?


 Jim

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Re: seesaw's beautiful docstrings

2012-07-25 Thread Mark Derricutt

On 25/07/12 9:17 PM, Laurent PETIT wrote:
Third option : use an editor/IDE which allows you to fold docs (one 
by one / fold all / unfold all), and / or to navigate in your source 
code via code outlines

I was just musing on wanting a Hopscotch style IDE for clojure:

http://theoryinpractise.tumblr.com/post/28023552869/everytime-i-tinker-with-newspeak-i-keep-thinking

The IDE gives a nice code browser, navigating between namespaces and 
functions in a collapsible manner along with a REPL.


Mark


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Re: seesaw's beautiful docstrings

2012-07-25 Thread Frank Siebenlist
We have an smalltalk-like clojure namespace/var/type-browser for 
docstrings/clojuredocs/source at https://github.com/franks42/clj-ns-browser; 
that may be of use… which happens to be built on top of seesaw.

-FrankS.



On Jul 25, 2012, at 7:25 PM, Mark Derricutt wrote:

 On 25/07/12 9:17 PM, Laurent PETIT wrote:
 Third option : use an editor/IDE which allows you to fold docs (one by one 
 / fold all / unfold all), and / or to navigate in your source code via code 
 outlines
 I was just musing on wanting a Hopscotch style IDE for clojure:
 
 http://theoryinpractise.tumblr.com/post/28023552869/everytime-i-tinker-with-newspeak-i-keep-thinking
 
 The IDE gives a nice code browser, navigating between namespaces and 
 functions in a collapsible manner along with a REPL.
 
 Mark
 
 
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Re: seesaw's beautiful docstrings

2012-07-25 Thread Mark Derricutt

On 26/07/12 3:40 PM, Frank Siebenlist wrote:

We have an smalltalk-like clojure namespace/var/type-browser for 
docstrings/clojuredocs/source at https://github.com/franks42/clj-ns-browser; 
that may be of use… which happens to be built on top of seesaw.

Hey that looks awesome! I saw it mentioned awhile back but it's come a 
long way since I last peeked.


Mark


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