Resigning from Cloud WG

[Haïkel]

Hello,

It pains me to admit it but I had no time for the WG for a while and
it's unlikely to change in the near-future.
So according our charter, I'm resigning from my seat.

Thank you for all the time spent together and I wish you all the best.

Regards,
H.
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Re: Docker 1.9.1-4 needs testing

[Haïkel]

I tested it this morning and gave it good karma so it should be pushed.

H.
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Re: Docker 1.9.1-4 needs testing

[Haïkel]

Sure, I wished Bodhi had the ability to create trackers so that we
could list the updates that we need to focus.
We can use etherpad for that purpose.

H.
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Re: Canceling today's cloud Working Group meeting

[Haïkel]

2015-09-30 17:08 GMT+02:00 Joe Brockmeier :
> Hey all,
>
> A number of folks are indisposed today, so unless there's a strong
> objection, let's cancel today's (30 September 2015) meeting.
>
> If there's any tickets or issues that require immediate attention, let's
> discuss on list.
>
> Best,
>
> jzb

+1
I'm sick today and I wouldn't mind some rest before fesco meeting

Regards,
H.
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Re: Mo's proposed fedora atomic logo

[Haïkel]

2015-09-16 14:48 GMT+02:00 Ryan Brown :
>
>
> I think we're over-estimating where users are in the "magic bi-modal IT
> devops agile transformation quadrant" (which I hear Gartner is calling it
> now).
>
> I think there's a fairly close mapping from where users are in the adoption
> cycle to what page they need to get to.
>
> Early adopters -> Atomic
> Early majority -> Cloud/Server
> Late majority/long tail -> Server/Workstation
>

Nope, we currently agree on that part, I've even said the same thing
in a pv yesterday :)


> There's your early adopters are already all about containers and know they
> want Atomic, and they'll go get it. We don't even really need to highlight
> it very much, just mention "Atomic is a cloud thing for containers" and
> they'll be all over it.
>

No, they want containers and containers-oriented systems but they're
not aware of the existence of Atomic.
Hence the decision to make Atomic primary, we want to raise awareness
around the project.

Currently, people are all getting giddy around CoreOS which has
developed interesting components but overall story is quite weak.

> The early majority has some stuff in the cloud already, and probably still
> have some "pets" either on real hardware or long-lived VMs. They might look
> at Atomic to evaluate it, but are likely still going to have Cloud or Server
> as their bread and butter. Highlighting atomic from the cloud page and the
> main getfedora.org would help us get these users into Atomic.
>
> The "early majority" will still have the Cloud/Server products as their main
> consumption for quite some time, and even if we think containers are where
> the cloud is going, there aren't going to be loads of users there for a
> while.
>

I agree about traditional cloud images but regarding Fedora Cloud, our
adoption rate is still low compared to other images.
If we start giving off the signal that Fedora Cloud is getting less
maintained while it's the contrary, we'll be ruining our efforts
there. Kushal, Mike and others did an excellent work on Fedora Classic
Cloud and the effort will be maintained at the same level or even
better.
Primary is Atomic, but Classic will still maintained for some time and
at the same level than currently. That's the message.

> I'm not sure that transferring the cloud image over to the Server WG makes
> much sense, since the Cloud WG has the expertise and infra to maintain it
> already.

Well, we're pretty far for even considering this but I see it as
possible in the future.
During Flock Prague, people took me for a fool when I asked Fesco if
we could imagine that one day, Fedora could switch to the Atomic model
rather than the traditional package one.
When I look at the work in progress about desktop app containers,
we're not that far from making it happen in a few years.


H.

> --
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Re: Mo's proposed fedora atomic logo

[Haïkel]

2015-09-15 20:23 GMT+02:00 Matthew Miller :
> https://mattdm.fedorapeople.org/misc/newfedoratomiclogomockup.png
>
> With Fedora Atomic Host as primary, the current Fedora Cloud logo would
> be still used for the Cloud Base image, but would probably be
> de-colored (see the non-Edition logos on https://arm.fedoraproject.org/
> for an example).
>
> Feedback? I think it looks great.
>

+2 /me wants it

But if the council allows us to do so, I'd like to keep the colored logo
for Fedora Cloud as we don't want to give the impression that it's not an
official product or less supported that it actually is.

H.
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Re: text for getfedora.org website

[Haïkel]

+2 for Ryan's change

Thanks Aditya for your proposal!

Regards,
H.
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Re: Mo's proposed fedora atomic logo

[Haïkel]

2015-09-15 22:52 GMT+02:00 Jason Brooks :
>
>
> If I didn't already know about the cloud base image as its own
> WG and such, I would have looked for it as a variant of the Server
> product.
>

It makes sense (that's why we support the cattle-to-pet scenario), but
server folks are focusing towards a different segment.
If you read about bimodal IT (thanks Gartner for feeding me with funny
buzzwords), server is focusing to traditional IT (mode 1) and cloud to
agile IT (mode 2).

Depending how things evolve around containers, we might consider that
cloud should solely focus on Atomic and maybe transfer ownership of
the classic image to server WG. But this is too early for considering
this.
After all, we decided to make Atomic primary to boost it, and refine
our story around it.
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Re: PRD and Atomic

[Haïkel]

2015-09-10 18:49 GMT+02:00 Matthew Miller :
> I know there was just a PRD update. In light of the recent vote to make
> Atomic the primary focus rather than just a single feature, I think it
> could use another revision, and submission to the Council for review,
> particularly as this has a lot of impact on the overall "three
> editions" Fedora strategy.
>
> Does anyone want to take a stab at it? Or maybe set up a time for an
> online hackfest where we work together on it? (I'm game to help,
> although I'm also knee deep in other things I need to be working on.)
>

We had similar requests from fesco to update our PRD. I started updating
our PRD to reflect our latest changes (like dropping x86 32-bit), Mike and Joe
also updated the PRD.

Another concern raised by fesco is what will happen to the "classic"
cloud image.
We need to explain that Fedora Atomic a joint work with upstream Atomic, and
that focus on Atomic won't affect negatively efforts on Base image.


> As a council member and as one of the FESCo people involved in
> selecting cloud as a target focus in the first place, I think this is
> a good move. But let's do the process. :)
>
>
> (Apologies if this was already discussed in IRC or somewhere... I
> didn't see any mail about it so I figured I'd kick this off.)
>

agreed.

> --
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> 
> Fedora Project Leader
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Cloud WG membership renewal

[Haïkel]

Hi ladies and gentlemen,

The Cloud WG regularly renew membership, and this time, we have
two seats available.
So if you're interested and able to dedicate a significant amount of time
then you're more than welcome to apply.

Candidates preferably could reply to the mailing list but you can
email me directly
if you're more comfortable this way. Please state what are your interests and
what you'd like to let us know.

Nominations will be closed by August, 24 (12AM UTC), then, the current members
will choose the new ones.

I'd like to thank Andy Grimm (agrimm) and David Gay (oddshocks) for their
fantastic work within the WG.
Andy Grimm will still serve as our liaison to the operations team and
manage access
to our cloud accounts.

Regards,
H.

PS: WG membership is not mandatory to join the meetings and start working :)
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Re: Cloud image use cases

[Haïkel]

2015-07-10 14:28 GMT+02:00 Josh Boyer jwbo...@fedoraproject.org:


 OK.  So your answer to my immediate question is neutral base that
 people have to customize.  Fair enough.  Now, why would someone wish
 to choose a Fedora cloud image over Ubuntu or CoreOS or any of the
 other minimal base that you have to customize images?


We should focus on reliability, availability and predictability, as we have
a short-term lifecycle.
= we did a great work to fix the first point, kudos to Kushal, Mike and
David for that.

predictability is our weak point:
* not enough documentation
* disruptive changes unannounced (like the ps one recently)


Another weakness is that we don't provide a large panel of application
stacks (and versions)
unlike Ubuntu. We only provide *one* release of python2, python3, ruby,
java, php (though more
are available through third-party repo) etc.

That's where the StackEnv WG work is important for us, as it could become
an asset against our other offers.


CoreOS is geared toward innovators and early adopters, our audience which
are
early adopters and early majority are still not ready to change to the
container-based
paradigm, as they're already struggling with scalability, automation etc...



 They've done that with kiwi for a long time.  They've had JeOS around
 for a long time.  Which is kind of my follow up point.  Why would
 someone choose Fedora cloud?  What makes it compelling?


We're more aggressive in pushing latest technologies compared to Suse and
we do it well. Moreover, we're a good lab to work on supporting the next EL
flavors.

A good mix between reliability/modernity





 Or, in other words, a minimal linux distro that you download and then
 have to spend time customizing :).


yes, and here, it's my own opinion, after curating this base, providing
tooling/documentation
to make customization easier is the key for our success.
My peers may disagree with me.




 That is somewhat confusing.  For the F22 release, I heard much more
 chatter and excitement around Atomic than I did Cloud images.  To the
 point where I thought the Atomic image _was_ the cloud image for a
 very long time.  Hence my follow up now.


That's understandable, and Atomic/Docker is clearly the exciting side from
the cloud lines.
We also don't spend enough efforts on marketing our cloud images, and most
of ambassadors are
not very cloud-aware.
I'd rather say that we're more or less starting to be a mature product
-though this is a constant effort-
, need to focus on polishing and marketing it.

H.



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Re: Cloud image use cases

[Haïkel]

2015-07-10 15:59 GMT+02:00 Ryan Brown rybr...@redhat.com:

 On 07/10/2015 09:48 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:
  On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 07:52:29AM -0500, Major Hayden wrote:
  Whenever I've spoken with customers about what they want from an OS
  in a virtual machine, they want it to contain a small package set
  that lets them run their automation on top of it (i.e. Ansible, Chef,
  Puppet). Removing Python from that image would be a serious curveball
  since most people expect to have Python available on any system
  running yum/dnf.
 
  Yeah, I'm willing to back down on wanting to remove Python.

 +1 It'd be a lot of work (rewriting dnf/whatever, maintaining both
 codebases, etc) for (relatively) little gain.



Depends: for end-users, it could mean a smaller bill each month on storage.

But I agree that we're not ready to drop python and it's *unlikely* before
a long time.
I also agree that it shouldn't be a high/medium priority task.

As for dnf, there are discussion upstream to rewrite it in C, VMWare has
also written
a drop-in replacement for dnf based on hawkey/librepo that could be
considered.

The more problematic component is cloud-init.



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Re: Cloud image use cases

[Haïkel]

2015-07-10 17:59 GMT+02:00 Matt Micene nzwul...@gmail.com:

 So what I'm really after is what sets Fedora Cloud apart from every
 other distro cloud image.  What usecases is it better at than {Ubuntu,
 SuSE, whatever}.


 Given that logic, Fedora should stop everything but Atomic.  The Cloud
 image should be Fedora optimized for the cloud instance experience, just
 like Workstation is Fedora optimized for the desktop user experience. It
 shouldn't be massively different for Cloud than Server, b/c the use case
 between Server and Cloud isn't that large.

 Fedora should have a typical answer for what use cases are better than
 XYZ distro, that isn't dependent on a (frankly) edge use case like a
 container specific platform.  Atomic is a new and interesting thing, with a
 very small and specific purpose and design.  That's a good thing and
 shouldn't be used as an argument against the Cloud image.  Or even as a
 comparison.


  Depends: for end-users, it could mean a smaller bill each month on
 storage.



 I'm not a fan of this argument for minimizing the Cloud experience as the
 real cost of magnetic storage in most cloud providers is small.  If
 pulling Python saves 1GB of on disk installed OS space, then users in a AWS
 environment save $0.24 a month / server in the most expensive storage in
 the most expensive region (Sao Paolo if you're curious).  And I'm sure we
 aren't shaving that much off the image.  I have to think the level of
 engineering required to majorly redesign things around minimization efforts
 are likely mis-placed if end user cost is the main metric.


Multiply this by the number of instances, and it could amount to few
thousands dollars per month.
More globally, our cloud image is still too fat compared to other distros
by a large margin.



 That's where the StackEnv WG work is important for us, as it could become
 an asset against our other offers.


 This ^^^  I'm a firm believer that the SCL work that got dropped is a huge
 value when we want to talk about differentiating Fedora as a Cloud or
 Server platform.  The ability to cleanly separate system requirements from
 end-user platforms is huge.  I think the Cloud SIG should be jumping up and
 down on getting SCLs back on track.

 - Matt M


Well, SCL is another topic (to remain polite), and I'm more than happy to
let StackEnv WG
dealing with that matter.

Regards,
H.
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Re: Cloud image use cases

[Haïkel]

Awesome, it wasn't the case a year ago.

H.
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Re: /usr/bin/ps missing from fedora:22 docker base image

[Haïkel]

2015-07-08 11:56 GMT+02:00 Michal Fojtik mfoj...@redhat.com:
 You know that you can do `docker exec CID` and inspect what is running
 inside the container (for example troubleshoot problems?)

You meant docker top, that's why it makes ps all the more redundant in an image.
Most people wishing to have ps in the image are using containers as
virtual machines
which is not an use case supported.
Moreover, you can still use ps on the host to monitor those processes,
though it would
benefit to be container aware.

Cf Cloud PRD
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud/Cloud_PRD#Requirement_.232:_Improved_Docker_Integration

Docker is a popular tool for launching and managing *application containers*.

 There are many use-cases where `ps` is super useful and the users will be
 asking why this tool is present in centos/debian/rhel/etc but not
 in F21.


Which ones? The only use case so far presented here is at best sketchy.
Looks like trying to fix the wrong problem.

H.
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Re: /usr/bin/ps missing from fedora:22 docker base image

[Haïkel]

Let's put this in today's meeting agenda.
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Re: /usr/bin/ps missing from fedora:22 docker base image

[Haïkel]

2015-07-08 12:14 GMT+02:00 Michal Fojtik mfoj...@redhat.com:
 No, I mean that when you run the container in cluster (like in
 Kubernetes/Atomic/OpenShift) you obviously
 don't have docker top but you have kubectl exec or oc exec. You don't
 know on which node the container
 runs and therefore you need to use the exec approach.


Ok, that's much less sketchy than supporting SysV initscript installation.
To me, it's a matter of Kubernetes not exposing information that is available by
the underlying engine. First step would be opening a RFE to kubernetes/OpenShift
to make this available.
Requiring images to provide ps for this use is a *workaround*

Moreover, fixing deps in rolekit would just fix the original issue.
That would benefit to people using systemd-networkd (like our cloud
images) and wants to use
rolekit.

H.
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Re: /usr/bin/ps missing from fedora:22 docker base image

[Haïkel]

Le 7 juil. 2015 18:20, Brian (bex) Exelbierd b...@pobox.com a écrit :

 Hi,

 It appears that /usr/bin/ps was dropped as it was an indirect dependency
in f21.  Can we put it back?  If this was a purposeful decision, can
someone point me at the thread as I couldn't find the discussion.


Looks like a bad idea, you don't need it in a container.

 The dependency chain, for those interested was:

 procps needed by initscripts needed by dhclient|ppp needed by
NetworkManager needed by rolekit needed by
fedora-release-server|generic-release-server needed by generic-release
needed by fedora-repos needed by fedora-release

 Thank you.

 regards,

 bex
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Re: /usr/bin/ps missing from fedora:22 docker base image

[Haïkel]

Le 8 juil. 2015 00:22, Joe Brockmeier j...@redhat.com a écrit :

 On 07/07/2015 05:25 PM, Haïkel wrote:
  Looks like a bad idea, you don't need it in a container.

 That may be, but doesn't really answer the question of how it was
 decided that it be dropped. If it's an incidental/accidental thing, we
 should have a discussion of whether there's general agreement on this
 assertion.


Longer answer:

I was not closing the discussion as it's something that will be decided by
the group. but having ps in a container means that we're treating it as a
virtual machine.
That's a huge change of the paradigm and not something we should encourage.

Moreover,  the use case mentioned is not supported: PS is here used to
retrieve process PID in a SysV init scripts, something we're supposed not
to support anymore.
It may hide another issue but putting back ps is not the right thing to do.
Smarter effort would be making ps container-aware on the host if you need
advanced process management.

That's definitely not consistent with the Atomic host story, too.

Again, this is just my opinion.

H.

 (Presumably it's always possible to pull in ps or other tools in a
 container, so this isn't quite as drastic as deciding to drop something
 in an Atomic Host...)

 Best,

 jzb
 --
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 j...@redhat.com | http://community.redhat.com/
 Twitter: @jzb  | http://dissociatedpress.net/


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Re: Testing Docker images (and possibly other cloud images) in CentOS CI

[Haïkel]

Mike, KB would like to see our test cases for the cloud images.
Could you forward them to him?

Regards
H.
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Re: Testing Docker images (and possibly other cloud images) in CentOS CI

[Haïkel]

2015-07-02 16:42 GMT+02:00 Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org:
 As a first step, does anyone have a problem with saying to CentOS,
 Cool! Start running those tests! Thanks! — even if we don't know what
 exactly what we're going to do with any results? I'm imagining that
 once we get to $futurephase of the build service plan, layered images
 will go through Bodhi just like RPMs, and at that point, this feedback
 could be hooked in there. In the meantime, packagers of layered images
 could simply be told to look manually.


Not at all.
More QA never hurts, and this is a step toward more collaboration between
Fedora  CentOS. *We* are more than just two distro but a whole
ecosystem.

Regards,
H.
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Re: [Vote] Retire 32 bit images

[Haïkel]

If that won't cause issues with future ARM images then +1
(ARM will be a strategic target in the short-term)

Regards,
H.
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[Cloud WG] meeting time change request

[Haïkel]

Hi,

I request that we change the meeting time to 5PM UTC.
It should be fine for most of us, and we can't keep that current
schedule.
Please vote in that thread (-1/+0/+1)

---

+1

Regards,
H.
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Re: glibc fix to allow instlangs to really work -- too late for f22?

[Haïkel]

My 2cts as Cloud SIG member is that we shouldn't wait for F23 as long as
it's ready for beta or even shortly before.

This is not just an annoyance, this is an huge impediment toward successful
cloud product.

I kindly ask fesco to take this into consideration

Regards,
H.
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Re: Atomic 2 week releases

[Haïkel]

As part of the Cloud WG, this is something we wanted to do from the beginning.

Personally, I'd prefer having two sets of images:
* unstable: based on rawhide
* testing: based on current stable + newer set of packages

The main blocker is our infrastructure, which is something that Kushal
and Mike are
trying to (partly) address by fleshing up our CI for our images.

Definitive answer will depend on what we can do with our current Rel-Eng infra.

Regards,
H.
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Re: Fedora 21 talking points - Cloud product?

[Haïkel]

2014-12-08 8:00 GMT+01:00 Truong Anh. Tuan tua...@iwayvietnam.com:
 Hi folks,

 You know, Fedora 21 is coming shortly.

 I have no idea who is responsible for writing Talking points for Fedora
 21 Cloud [1] so I would like to open this thread to remind you.

 This wiki could help a lot to Ambassadors to talk about the new Fedora.

 Kind regards,
 Tuan

 [1] https://fedorahosted.org/marketing-team/ticket/176

+1 talking points are important.

According the marketing trac ticket, Joe is the owner of the task.
He may have something ready, but if there isn't, we'll fix this.

Regards,
H.
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Re: Meeting tomorrow - will we have a quorum?

[Haïkel]

Ok, I won't be there, I thought that my shoulder rehabilitation was
earlier today :(

Regards,
H.
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Re: Meeting tomorrow - will we have a quorum?

[Haïkel]

I should be present :)
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Re: Adding open-vm-tools package to Fedora Atomic

[Haïkel]

2014-11-22 1:26 GMT+01:00 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky zn...@znmeb.net:
 You'd need to reformat them to vmdk with 'qemu-img convert' first, I think.
 I got the Koji image to work on Windows 8.1 Client Hyper-V by using
 'qemu-img convert' to convert it from qcow2 to vhdx.

 On a related note, is there a plan to build boot2atomic? Like Boot2Docker,
 only Atomic instead of coreos.


I think you're mistaken. First, boot2docker is not based on CoreOS,
it's a lightweight linux distro (a derivative of Tiny Core Linux).
Second, Atomic Host/Core OS/Boot2docker albeit optimized for different
use cases (production vs test) are minimal distro
for hosting containers.

You may use Fedora Atomic as an alternative to boot2docker, though it
won't be as small as boot2docker.

Regards,
H.
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Re: Better testimonial for site?

[Haïkel]

@Paul: only for Atomic or also for the cloud base image ?

H.
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Re: fedora-productimg-cloud package

[Haïkel]

I can comaintain this package. I assume you don't expect me to do any
graphic work because it will be awful :o)

H.
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Re: Meeting On Wednesday at 19:00 UTC

[Haïkel]

Won't be present for today's meeting, I'm still at the OpenStack summit.

H.
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Re: last minute f21 change -- workstation dropping installable tree

[Haïkel]

2014-10-23 2:28 GMT+02:00 Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org:
 So in today's FESCo meeting, it was decided that since the workaround
 for making the netinstall image isn't all... worked around... rel-eng
 wants to just drop making a separate installable Workstation tree. On
 the mirrors, Workstation will just contain the live images. (Netinstall
 will still be possible, from the server netinstall, but not the
 default.) I'm thinking that if that's being done, we should do the same
 with Cloud, and just have Cloud images directly under Cloud (with no
 repo or rpms there).

 What do you think?

 This will all need to be revisited for F22 in any case.


If that will be revisited afterwards, then we should just drop it.
As long as documentation reflects that, I'm fine with delaying to F22.

H.
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Re: When do we switch? (was Re: New Meeting Time)

[Haïkel]

2014-10-23 18:51 GMT+02:00 Joe Brockmeier j...@redhat.com:
 Speaking of new meeting times... does this mean no meeting tomorrow?

 Best,

 jzb


Unless we have urgent matters to discuss, I would be ok with that.

/me admits that he's just being lazy here due to local PyCon org.

H.
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Re: New Meeting Time

[Haïkel]

2014-10-23 19:02 GMT+02:00 Kushal Das kushal...@gmail.com:
 +1 , 1900UTC is good, it is half past midnight here, less noise for me :)


Do you have any secrets to stay focused on such late hours ? :D

H.
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Re: [Fedocal] Reminder meeting : Fedora Cloud Workgroup

[Haïkel]

No meeting for me, I'll be litterally in the cloud, flying back home :)

Regards,
H.
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Re: [X-POST] Script to convert Fedora Cloud instance to Fedora Server instance

[Haïkel]

/etc/cloudserver.conf is fine with me

H.
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Re: [X-POST] Script to convert Fedora Cloud instance to Fedora Server instance

[Haïkel]

2014-10-13 17:14 GMT+02:00 Mike Ruckman ro...@fedoraproject.org:

 In case we wanted to have it on the image or not have any deps, I ported it to
 bash [0].

 [0] https://gist.github.com/Rorosha/55746a17738343c920d7


sed -i '#/bin/bash#/bin/sh#'
It has no bashims and I tested it against dash so it's already
future-proof if we move to another default shell.

H.
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Re: [DRAFT] Changes to Working Group structure

[Haïkel]

+1 for the new WG decision making process
It does not change the spirit of the previous one as we *WANT*
interaction with the SIG, but it allows us to overcome practical
issues of meetings.

Regards,
H.
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Re: Proposed Cloud release criteria for F21

[Haïkel]

@Mike: a big fat +1 :)
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Re: severe f21 alpha bug: cloud images can't reboot

[Haïkel]

2014-09-30 16:09 GMT+02:00 Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org:

 See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1147998

 This may be related to the automatic partition resizing, but I'm not sure.

 PVM-based booting, as in EC2 (uh, except for HVM in EC2, obviously) is
 unaffected.

 We should probably add reboots properly in HMV environment; and reboots
 properly in PVM environment to our validation tests and release criteria.


EC2 was untested -I don't have anymore access to a partner account-,
If you send me the credentials, I could take care of it for our next
test days.

Regards,
H.


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 mat...@fedoraproject.org
 Fedora Project Leader
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Re: Cloud WG proposed new slate [was: cloud wg official membership refresh?]

[Haïkel]

2014-09-29 16:16 GMT+02:00 Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org:

 Okay, so, I went through the IRC logs, e-mail archives,
 https://github.com/fedora-cloud/, and tickets. I identified this last of the
 the most active cloud SIG members, and I think that the voting WG membership
 should reflect this. This ends up dropping quite a few of the active
 members, which I think is okay -- it's not a black mark or anything. We've
 been operating very well with a blurred line and now formal distinction, and
 this is just meant to bring the list into sync with activity.

 If you're on this list but feel like you shouldn't be, speak up. (If, for
 example, you're really not going to have time over the *next* three months.)
 And if you aren't but think you really should be, just say so -- in private
 or here or whatever -- I'm not meaning to leave out anyone who is actively
 involved and I easily could have missed relevant activity not represented by
 the sources above (and also, I haven't had much coffee yet this morning.)

 So, proposed new slate:

 * Andy Grimm (agrimm)
 * Dusty Mabe (dustymabe)
 * Ian McLeod (imcleod)
 * Jared Smith (jsmith)
 * Joe Brockmeier (jzb)
 * Haïkel Guémar (number80)
 * David Gay (oddshocks)
 * Mike Ruckmman (roshi)
 * Scott Collier (scollier)

 (Why yes, that is in alphabetical order by IRC nick.)


Just to speak about the other people that are not me, they are all
worthy to join the WG.
I'm particularly excited to have representatives from doc  QA which
will be important topics
in the next releases.
Products without documentation and QA are not really products, no
matter how great they are ;-)

 You'll notice I left _myself_ off. That's not because of not caring, but
 because of that not having time over the next few months thing — I really
 need to focus on FPL duties. And, it's also because Red Hat is in the
 process of hiring someone to replace my old role focusing on Fedora Cloud.
 I'm not going to name names until the ink is dry, but it's someone who will
 have no trouble jumping into the mix on merit in short order. (I'm also
 really not concerned about number of members, by the way -- I think we
 shouldn't make 9 a magic number and adjust up and down based on activity.)


*nods*
I'd like to thank you for your good services in the Cloud SIG then
Cloud WG, you did great :)

And I assume that everyone else wants the WG to remain open to any
Cloud SIG member.
Since we're using lazy consensus, as long as we keep membership at a
reasonable level,
it's not a problem to add few members.

Regards,
H.


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 mat...@fedoraproject.org
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Re: RDO Test Days

[Haïkel]

Hi,

F21 is also a target (Rich will fix the blog post)
https://repos.fedorapeople.org/repos/openstack/openstack-juno/fedora-21/

And yes, the RDO team care about having a rock-solid packaging on Fedora.
I've been dog-fooding our latest composes on openstack and personnally
plan to use this occasion to test further our alpha images.

Regards,
H.
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Re: Test Days for Alpha / Cloud Image

[Haïkel]

I would rather overlap with RDO test days for our mutual benefits but
I don't mind september 24/25.

Yes, we need specific test cases for Atomic: rpm-ostree, is Docker
working properly, kubernetes (maybe too soon for that ?) etc.

Regards,
H.
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Re: cloud wg official membership refresh?

[Haïkel]

Le 18 sept. 2014 19:11, Joe Brockmeier j...@redhat.com a écrit :

 On 09/18/2014 12:09 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
  But I think we should name and ratify a new slate to better reflect the
  active state of the SIG in the past few months. Anyone opposed?

 No opposition here. +1


+1
Actually, we hardly reach the quorum so it's not even working.
If possible I'd like us to be more inclusive with the SIG, to make it
easier to include new people.

 --
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 j...@redhat.com | http://community.redhat.com/
 Twitter: @jzb  | http://dissociatedpress.net/


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Re: Fedora 21 Alpha RC testing request

[Haïkel]

Hello guys,

I have been testing the base  atomic images on openstack, so far, so
good ! I'll do later libvirt.
From last meeting, I understand that jsmith will be handling the testing on AWS.

Few things:
* matrix has not been duplicated for Atomic, since Base and Atomic are
*very* different images, it should
* sshd is not a good use case for base service manipulation test case
(really ;) )

Regards,
H.
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Re: Fedora 21 Alpha RC testing request

[Haïkel]

Le 17 sept. 2014 17:25, Jared K. Smith jsm...@fedoraproject.org a écrit
:


 On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 5:33 AM, Haïkel hgue...@fedoraproject.org wrote:

 From last meeting, I understand that jsmith will be handling the testing
on AWS.



 I said that I'd be happy to do some testing on AWS images, but wasn't
specifically talking about the RC1 images.  I would be happy to test the
RC1 images today, as long as I can get the right AWS credentials from
Matthew to do so.


My apologies for the misunderstanding. I would be grateful if you did when
you'll get the credentials.

H.

 --
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Re: Fedora 21 Alpha RC testing request

[Haïkel]

On a functional POV, most test cases are the same.

I'm in favour of considering Atomic as a release blocker but Joe and Colin
may have arguments not to.

H.
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Re: Fedora 21 Alpha RC testing request

[Haïkel]

2014-09-17 19:05 GMT+02:00 Joe Brockmeier j...@redhat.com:

 As a release blocker for Alpha or final?


Both, as alpha release requirements are much less restrictive but I'm
open on the alpha side.

 I don't want to block the alpha if we don't have it ready (but I think
 we do) but absolutely want this to be a blocker for the final.

 Best,

 jzb

Works for me, and *YES*, it should block the final release !

 --
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 j...@redhat.com | http://community.redhat.com/
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Re: Regrets (Re: [Fedocal] Reminder meeting : Fedora Cloud Workgroup)

[Haïkel]

I could chair this week meeting.

Regards,
H.
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Cloud SIG Meeting Minutes (2014-09-05)

[Haïkel]

==
#fedora-meeting: Cloud WG (2014-09-05)
==


Meeting started by number80 at 17:05:39 UTC. The full logs are available
at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-09-05/fedora-meeting.2014-09-05-17.05.log.html
.



Meeting summary
---
* Coordinate F21 / fedora next website  (number80, 17:08:21)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/36   (number80,
17:08:29)
  * LINK: http://stg.fedoraproject.org/en/get-prerelease#cloud
(mattdm, 17:08:43)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-websites/ticket/267   (mattdm,
17:09:02)
  * staging website:
http://stg.fedoraproject.org/en/get-prerelease#cloud  (number80,
17:11:05)
  * related ticket https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-websites/ticket/267
(number80, 17:11:18)

* Atomic Image  (number80, 17:11:28)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/64   (number80,
17:11:35)
  * agrimm has a working vagrant  cloud image (still figuring out the
full workflow)  (number80, 17:17:14)
  * LINK: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=7531371
(dgilmore, 17:36:21)
  * Fedora Atomic TC6 image (should be, you know... testable!)
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=7531374  (mattdm,
17:37:31)
  * ACTION: imcleod to generate comps, spin kickstart and environments
changes as needed to get the required cloud packages into the Cloud
spin  (mattdm, 17:45:23)
  * HELP: documentation for making custom images would be nice  (mattdm,
17:52:10)

* next steps on test plan  (number80, 17:55:28)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/61   (number80,
17:55:36)
  * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Roshi/QA/Cloud_Docs
(roshi, 17:56:19)
  * HELP: everyone look at roshi's test plan!  (mattdm, 17:56:30)
  * HELP: add test cases for Atomic Host image  (number80, 17:57:48)
  * HELP: we hould plan a test day with the base wg for running the
docker base image in atomic  (mattdm, 18:00:26)
  * ACTION: jzb plan test days for Atomic image, base docker image
(jzb, 18:01:25)
  * ACTION: dustymabe start a discussion on terminology (docker/atomic)
on the cloud m-l  (number80, 18:04:14)

* Automatic Smoketests on Image Build  (number80, 18:06:14)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/38   (number80,
18:06:22)
  * LINK:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Roshi/QA/Cloud_Docs/what_to_test
(roshi, 18:08:29)
  * for the time being we can do manual tests and automagic tests as we
have them, and report in the wiki as usual  (mattdm, 18:17:42)

* start communication/collaboration on cloud image updates  (number80,
  18:22:09)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/51   (number80,
18:22:16)
  * agrimm has some good info in the ticket  (mattdm, 18:23:51)
  * HELP: more suggestions for cases where an update should be created
would be helpful  (mattdm, 18:26:36)
  * HELP: more discussion in the ticket please  (mattdm, 18:30:52)

* Process for determining when and why Docker trusted images need to be
  rebuilt  (number80, 18:31:32)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/59   (number80,
18:31:37)
  * LINK:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/cloud/2014-September/004194.html
(dustymabe, 18:35:37)
  * ACTION: number80 close ticket #65  (number80, 18:37:59)

* openfloor  (number80, 18:38:53)
  * Weekly Atomic meeting in #atomic on tuesdays 20:00 UTC  (number80,
18:40:40)
  * LINK: https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar//meeting/738/
(oddshocks, 18:40:44)

Meeting ended at 18:42:25 UTC.




Action Items

* imcleod to generate comps, spin kickstart and environments changes as
  needed to get the required cloud packages into the Cloud spin
* jzb plan test days for Atomic image, base docker image
* dustymabe start a discussion on terminology (docker/atomic) on the
  cloud m-l
* number80 close ticket #65




Action Items, by person
---
* dustymabe
  * dustymabe start a discussion on terminology (docker/atomic) on the
cloud m-l
* imcleod
  * imcleod to generate comps, spin kickstart and environments changes
as needed to get the required cloud packages into the Cloud spin
* jzb
  * jzb plan test days for Atomic image, base docker image
* number80
  * number80 close ticket #65
* **UNASSIGNED**
  * (none)




People Present (lines said)
---
* number80 (80)
* roshi (79)
* mattdm (65)
* jzb (46)
* dgilmore (44)
* dustymabe (21)
* oddshocks (18)
* agrimm (16)
* imcleod (13)
* zodbot (12)
* geppetto (4)
* jsmith (2)
* adamw (1)




Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4

.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
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Cloud SIG Meeting Minutes (2014-08-29)

[Haïkel]

===
#fedora-meeting Meeting
===


Meeting started by jzb at 17:03:21 UTC. The full logs are available at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-08-29/fedora-meeting.2014-08-29-17.03.log.html
.



Meeting summary
---
* roll call  (jzb, 17:03:27)

* Trac tickets  (jzb, 17:07:31)

* Automatic Smoketests on Image Build  (jzb, 17:09:05)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/38   (jzb, 17:09:11)
  * LINK:
https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/report/9?sort=ticketasc=1page=1
(jzb, 17:10:18)
  * ACTION: agrimm discuss ticket #38 with roshi and report back to
ticket/mailing list.  (jzb, 17:11:17)

* start communication/collaboration on cloud image updates  (jzb,
  17:11:30)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/51   (jzb, 17:11:40)
  * ACTION: agrimm will meet with roshi on ticket #51 and report back to
list/ticket.  (jzb, 17:14:24)

* Process for determining when and why Docker trusted images need to be
  rebuilt  (jzb, 17:15:24)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/59   (jzb, 17:15:32)
  * LINK:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud/Cloud_RFC_Docker_Trusted_Images_Rebuild_Policy
(jzb, 17:16:18)

* next steps on test plan  (jzb, 17:17:52)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/61   (jzb, 17:18:06)
  * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Roshi/QA/Cloud_Docs
(jzb, 17:19:50)
  * ACTION: jzb to invite adamw to next week's meeting, make sure we
have something to look over.  (jzb, 17:23:23)
  * LINK:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Roshi/QA/Cloud_Docs/Test_Overview
(roshi, 17:25:21)

* tracker for Project Atomic  (jzb, 17:27:03)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/64   (jzb, 17:27:13)

* crucial questions on Docker image deliverable  (jzb, 17:30:48)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/65   (jzb, 17:30:55)
  * ACTION: roshi will take ticket 65 and get answers, report back, and
probably re-assign once we know what's left to do.  (jzb, 17:42:22)

* open floor  (jzb, 17:42:35)
  * HELP: Testers wanted for new python3-boto package in updates-testing
(gholms, 17:43:06)
  * ACTION: number80 help dustymabe on digitalocean  (number80,
17:43:45)
  * LINK:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/cloud/2014-August/004165.html
(dustymabe, 17:47:21)

Meeting ended at 17:57:33 UTC.




Action Items

* agrimm discuss ticket #38 with roshi and report back to ticket/mailing
  list.
* agrimm will meet with roshi on ticket #51 and report back to
  list/ticket.
* jzb to invite adamw to next week's meeting, make sure we have
  something to look over.
* roshi will take ticket 65 and get answers, report back, and probably
  re-assign once we know what's left to do.
* number80 help dustymabe on digitalocean




Action Items, by person
---
* adamw
  * jzb to invite adamw to next week's meeting, make sure we have
something to look over.
* agrimm
  * agrimm discuss ticket #38 with roshi and report back to
ticket/mailing list.
  * agrimm will meet with roshi on ticket #51 and report back to
list/ticket.
* dustymabe
  * number80 help dustymabe on digitalocean
* jzb
  * jzb to invite adamw to next week's meeting, make sure we have
something to look over.
* number80
  * number80 help dustymabe on digitalocean
* roshi
  * agrimm discuss ticket #38 with roshi and report back to
ticket/mailing list.
  * agrimm will meet with roshi on ticket #51 and report back to
list/ticket.
  * roshi will take ticket 65 and get answers, report back, and probably
re-assign once we know what's left to do.
* **UNASSIGNED**
  * (none)




People Present (lines said)
---
* jzb (124)
* roshi (53)
* dustymabe (22)
* agrimm (20)
* zodbot (14)
* gholms (13)
* frankieonuonga (13)
* oddshocks (7)
* number80 (6)
* adamw (3)
* geppetto (1)




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Cloud SIG Meeting Minutes (2014-08-22)

[Haïkel]

Thanks to Andy for chairing this meeting !


=
#fedora-meeting: Cloud WG
=


Meeting started by agrimm at 17:03:09 UTC. The full logs are available
at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-08-22/fedora-meeting.2014-08-22-17.03.log.html
.



Meeting summary
---
* roll call  (agrimm, 17:05:36)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/65   (agrimm, 17:22:16)

* Coordinate F21 / fedora next website  (dustymabe, 17:33:42)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/36   (dustymabe,
17:34:26)

Meeting ended at 17:37:27 UTC.




Action Items






Action Items, by person
---
* **UNASSIGNED**
  * (none)




People Present (lines said)
---
* agrimm (36)
* dustymabe (18)
* zodbot (7)
* number80 (5)
* imcleod (2)
* jsmith (1)
* walters (1)




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Re: Regrets to today's meeting

[Haïkel]

The same goes for me, I won't be able to attend the full meeting today.
Is there someone willing to chair today ?


Regards,
H.
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Cloud SIG Meeting Minutes (2014-08-15)

[Haïkel]

=
#fedora-meeting: Cloud WG
=


Meeting started by number80 at 17:02:54 UTC. The full logs are available
at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-08-15/fedora-meeting.2014-08-15-17.02.log.html
.



Meeting summary
---
* roll call  (number80, 17:03:15)

* automatic smoketests on image build  (number80, 17:06:43)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/38   (number80,
17:06:46)
  * define a testing day when images will build  (number80, 17:08:32)

* start communication/collaboration on cloud image updates  (number80,
  17:18:27)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/51   (number80,
17:18:29)
  * ACTION: jzb start discussion avec cloud image updates policy on the
cloud/releng list  (number80, 17:22:20)

* Process for determining when and why Docker trusted images need to be
  rebuilt  (number80, 17:23:43)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/59   (number80,
17:23:48)
  * ACTION: jzb send a draft for Docker trusted images updates policy on
the list  (number80, 17:25:00)

* Next step on the test plan  (number80, 17:25:34)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/61   (number80,
17:25:40)

* Project Atomic weekly status  (number80, 17:30:08)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/64   (number80,
17:30:15)
  * upcoming support of internal Fedora openstack instance image
uploading in fedimg  (number80, 17:35:51)
  * ACTION: Cloud WG updating #64 (Atomic tracker) every week
(number80, 17:37:45)
  * imcleod is working with legal on HP  (number80, 17:42:36)
  * ACTION: dustymabe/number80 working on Digital Ocean support
(number80, 17:46:41)
  * agrimm working on clearance with legal on GCE, Rackspace  (number80,
17:50:54)

* open floor  (number80, 17:58:02)
  * ACTION: oddshocks Send out email to folks about what we need from
Rackspace, GCE, and HP  (oddshocks, 18:02:17)

Meeting ended at 18:03:45 UTC.




Action Items

* jzb start discussion avec cloud image updates policy on the
  cloud/releng list
* jzb send a draft for Docker trusted images updates policy on the list
* Cloud WG updating #64 (Atomic tracker) every week
* dustymabe/number80 working on Digital Ocean support
* oddshocks Send out email to folks about what we need from Rackspace,
  GCE, and HP




Action Items, by person
---
* dustymabe
  * dustymabe/number80 working on Digital Ocean support
* jzb
  * jzb start discussion avec cloud image updates policy on the
cloud/releng list
  * jzb send a draft for Docker trusted images updates policy on the
list
* number80
  * dustymabe/number80 working on Digital Ocean support
* oddshocks
  * oddshocks Send out email to folks about what we need from Rackspace,
GCE, and HP
* **UNASSIGNED**
  * Cloud WG updating #64 (Atomic tracker) every week




People Present (lines said)
---
* number80 (88)
* jzb (45)
* oddshocks (40)
* imcleod (36)
* stickster (26)
* agrimm (18)
* zodbot (12)
* dustymabe (10)
* frankieonuonga (6)
* dgilmore (6)
* scollier (1)




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Cloud WG mission statement

[Haïkel]

Heya,

Apparently we're the only WG that hadn't a short and nice mission
statement. That appeared during Christoph talk on advocating Fedora.Next at
Flock.

Either we have one and should update the WG page update to reflect it or
make one.

Matthew made one on the spot, by using the pets vs cattle metaphor and it
is probably something we should build upon. Bonus point if someone can do
an illustration for our shiny new mission statement ;)

Regards,
H.
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Re: [Fedocal] Reminder meeting : Fedora Cloud Workgroup

[Haïkel]

Yay, the reminder is not indicating the wrong time anymore.
BTW, since many people are at Flock, we might cancel this week's meeting.

Regards,
H.
Le 6 août 2014 19:00, hgue...@fedoraproject.org a écrit :

 Dear all,

 You are kindly invited to the meeting:
Fedora Cloud Workgroup on 2014-08-08 from 17:00:00 to 18:00:00 UTC
At fedora-meet...@irc.freenode.net

 The meeting will be about:
 Standing meeting for the Fedora Cloud Workgroup.


 Source: https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar//meeting/482/

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Re: fedora.next joint session at flock

[Haïkel]

Le 1 août 2014 16:55, Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org a écrit :

 Sorry, this isn't last minute yet, is it? :)

 Earlier this year at DevConf, we did a session on Fedora.next, with an
 overview presentation followed by a 3 minute report from each WG, and a
 panel discussion. We're aiming to do this again at Flock, with a big joint
 session on Friday.

 Last time, I represented Cloud, and I'm totally happy to do it again, but
if
 someone else would like to, that'd be great too. More diversity, more
public
 faces, more awesome. Anyone interested?


Since I'll be one of the few non-redhatter of our group there, I don't mind
to step in.

Regards,
H.

 --
 Matthew Miller
 mat...@fedoraproject.org
 Fedora Project Leader
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Re: fedora.next joint session at flock

[Haïkel]

Agreed !

H.
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Re: [Fedocal] Reminder meeting : Fedora Cloud Workgroup

[Haïkel]

I don't know why the reminder was sent with the wrong time :/
For the record, meeting will be hold at  this hours @ 17:00 UTC /
13:00 Eastern / 12:00 Central / 10:00 Pacific

btw, I will be missing this week meeting.

Regards,
H.
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Re: Cockpit in Cloud images?

[Haïkel]

2014-07-22 13:46 GMT+02:00 Colin Walters walt...@verbum.org:
 Hi,

 I was originally including Cockpit in

 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Atomic_Cloud_Image

 but rel-eng raised the concern that

 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/CockpitManagementConsole

 is only listed for Server.  Should we include it in Cloud too?  Right
 now it's promoted as part of the Project Atomic, so I think it'd make
 sense to include there.


Makes sense for the Atomic host.

 Perhaps a relevant difference here is that Cloud is more often treated
 as cattle instead of pets - disposable stateless systems managed as a
 group, and thus there's less need to configure things node by node.
 Even then though, Cockpit offers visualization on a per-node level.

 Thoughts?

For the other cloud images, I'm not sure that cockpit bring enough
value to our targeted users.
They prefer using other (and more field-proven) tools.

Regards,
H.
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Big Data Image: call for heroes

[Haïkel]

Hey,

Since our last discussion about what we should include in the Big data
image, not much happened.
I suggest that we work on:
1. listing key packages for the big data images (ie: ambari ?)
2. which services should be start at runtime
3. test cases (I think we agreed about reusing blog posts from the Big
Data SIG folks)
4. Anything else ?

We need to get something working soon.

We'll probably organize a cloud BoF at Flock, I would love to hear
from you if you're coming there.

Best regards,
H.
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New Cloud WG member approval: Andy Grimm

[Haïkel]

Hello,

Since Sandro Mathys (red_trela) stepped down from the Working Group,
we're missing a member.
During last week meeting, Andy Grimm (agrimm, fas: arg) candidated to
replace him and taking ownership of Sandro's tasks.

According our Governance document: When a position in the group
becomes available, that position will be filled by unanimous consent
of the existing members.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud/Governance

So we need to get consent from the remaining Cloud WG voting members
to get Andy onboard.
I suggest we use Apache lazy consensus rule: +1 (approve) +0 (no
opinion, but okay) -1 (disapprove)
and if there's no -1 before the next meeting, and we reached quorum by
then, Andy will be joining us.

Let's start voting !
+1 from myself.

best regards,
H.
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Cloud SIG Meeting Minutes for 2014-07-03

[Haïkel Guémar]

Hello,

The Cloud WG was able to held its weekly meeting despite summer :)
You'll find below the minutes and the logs of the meeting

=
#fedora-meeting: Cloud WG
=


Meeting started by number80 at 14:10:58 UTC. The full logs are available
at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-07-03/fedora-meeting.2014-07-03-14.10.log.html
.



Meeting summary
---
* Hello everyone  (number80, 14:11:34)

* Working Group  (number80, 14:14:29)

* Automatic Smoketests on Image Build  (number80, 14:16:17)
  * taskotron moving toward production and replacing AutoQA soon
(number80, 14:17:34)
  * roshi working on fabric-based test suite for cloud images
(number80, 14:19:34)

* Deliverables and release engineering changes for Fedora.Next
  (number80, 14:22:31)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/50   (number80,
14:22:37)
  * changes freeze is scheduled on 2014/07/08  (number80, 14:23:59)
  * ACTION: jzb ticket 50: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/50
(jzb, 14:24:23)

* start communication/collaboration on cloud image updates  (number80,
  14:25:45)
  * ACTION: mattdm to keep moving this forward; agrimm to help  (mattdm,
14:38:01)

* Docker image  (number80, 14:41:14)
  * dgilmore and jgreguske are working on updating koji to support
docker images creation  (number80, 14:42:28)
  * ACTION: mattdm to ping lsm5 about that too (as he is the feature
owner)  (mattdm, 14:43:57)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/65   (number80,
14:44:12)

* Project Atomic  (number80, 14:46:58)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/64   (number80,
14:47:03)
  * ACTION: agrimm is helping on ticket 64:
https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/64  (number80, 14:50:04)
  * looking for integrating of ostree trees into fedora infrastructure
(number80, 14:52:45)
  * ACTION: jzb trying to setup a cantas instance for the cloud SIG
(number80, 14:58:47)

* next steps on test plan  (number80, 15:00:22)
  * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/61   (number80,
15:00:24)
  * adamw is syncing all tests docs from all WGs  (number80, 15:01:32)

* open floor  (number80, 15:04:14)
  * ACTION: number80 organize the vote to welcome agrimm in the WG
(number80, 15:07:47)

Meeting ended at 15:12:17 UTC.




Action Items

* jzb ticket 50: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/50
* mattdm to keep moving this forward; agrimm to help
* mattdm to ping lsm5 about that too (as he is the feature owner)
* agrimm is helping on ticket 64:
  https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/64
* jzb trying to setup a cantas instance for the cloud SIG
* number80 organize the vote to welcome agrimm in the WG




Action Items, by person
---
* agrimm
  * mattdm to keep moving this forward; agrimm to help
  * agrimm is helping on ticket 64:
https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/64
  * number80 organize the vote to welcome agrimm in the WG
* jzb
  * jzb ticket 50: https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/50
  * jzb trying to setup a cantas instance for the cloud SIG
* mattdm
  * mattdm to keep moving this forward; agrimm to help
  * mattdm to ping lsm5 about that too (as he is the feature owner)
* number80
  * number80 organize the vote to welcome agrimm in the WG
* **UNASSIGNED**
  * (none)




People Present (lines said)
---
* number80 (87)
* jzb (37)
* mattdm (35)
* roshi (22)
* agrimm (21)
* zodbot (12)
* dgilmore (7)
* frankieonuonga (6)
* jsmith (2)
* geppeto (0)




Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4

.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot


Minutes: 
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-07-03/fedora-meeting.2014-07-03-14.10.html 

Minutes (text): 
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-07-03/fedora-meeting.2014-07-03-14.10.txt
Log: 
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-07-03/fedora-meeting.2014-07-03-14.10.log.htm

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Re: Meeting Time?

[Haïkel]

2014-07-02 16:10 GMT+02:00 Joe Brockmeier j...@redhat.com:
 Hey all,

 So - we have a meeting scheduled tomorrow at 9 a.m. Central (or 14:00:00
 to 15:00:00 UTC for those of you not fortunate enough to live in St.
 Louis...).

 I'm concerned about the timing because:

 - It's the day before a U.S. holiday and a lot of folks tend to take
 time off early.
 - I have a conflicting 9 a.m. meeting, and I suspect one or two other
 folks also do.
 - Attendance has been pretty light in general.


+1


 I suspect we do need to talk about changes freeze, though? That's coming
 up on 8 July.

 Thoughts?


Though, I'm fine with the original time, I agree if US based folks want to move.

H.

 Best,

 jzb
 --
 Joe Brockmeier | Principal Cloud  Storage Analyst
 j...@redhat.com | http://community.redhat.com/
 Twitter: @jzb  | http://dissociatedpress.net/


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Re: gone for next meeting

[Haïkel Guémar]

Le 20/06/2014 21:08, Joe Brockmeier a écrit :

Since we've skipped two meetings, did this get resolved?

Haïkel - was your offer temporary because you only want to do it as an
interim, or because you were expecting the group to have other
candidates, or...?


Right now, I can't do better than interim, my personal situation is 
quite unstable.
I'm leaving my current position for health reasons, and many issues 
(left shoulder rehabilitation, I haven't been paid last month, etc.) 
which means that I'm running like a headless chicken :)


For fesco meetings I attended last week and mattdm was present this week.
This week meeting was replaced by an informal one on #fedora-cloud 
around QA with roshi
We started brainstorming around cloud images tests cases and preparing 
the upcoming tests days.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Roshi/QA/Cloud_Docs/what_to_test



Matthew - Can you elaborate on what the role entails?




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Re: question about audit _by default_ in Fedora cloud images

[Haïkel]

2014-06-17 15:04 GMT+02:00 Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org:
 I was looking at https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1311, and it occured
 to me that we don't ship the selinux troubleshooting tools by default in the
 minimal cloud image (add 'em if you need them). We do leave _audit_ there.

 What do people think about removing it? (As noted in the ticket, it's mostly
 useful with configuration, not in the default state.)

 --
 Matthew Miller
 mat...@fedoraproject.org
 Fedora Project Leader

It makes sense, unless security folks have a good reason to advise us
to keep it.

H.
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Re: gone for next meeting

[Haïkel]

2014-06-10 15:13 GMT+02:00 Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org:
 I have the next few days off for some family travel. That means I'll miss
 the meeting this week. One topic that might be worth discussing is if
 someone else would like to take over as FESCo liaison for Fedora Cloud. This
 mostly entails coming to the FESCo meetings at least every other week and
 being generaly on top of what's going on for when people ask. It also
 involves some degree of being the talking head for the subproject.I think a
 lot of WG members could easily do it, but it is an extra degree of
 commitment

 As I mentioned in my blog post
 http://fedoramagazine.org/first-thoughts-as-fedora-project-leader/, I'm
 still very interested in being involved here, but given everything else, I
 think the liasion responsibility is something I could hand off to help keep
 my life and schedule in some semblance of balance. Discuss at meeting? :)

 --
 Matthew Miller
 mat...@fedoraproject.org
 Fedora Project Leader


Hi,

I could temporarily assume being the Cloud SIG liaison with fesco.

best regards,
H.
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Re: Chair for tomorrow's meeting?

[Haïkel]

Hi,

Being currently one-armed, I can't properly chair an irc meeting.

Regards
H.

PS: the gmail android app is a PITA w/ mailing lists, sorry jzb for the
noise
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semi-away notice

[Haïkel Guémar]

Hi,

yesterday, I broke my left arm, so my response time will be 
significantly slowed down for about 4 weeks.
I kindly ask my co-maintainers and provenpackagers to look after my 
packages.

I'll still be around, i'll also finish my packages reviews.

Regards,
H.
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Re: enabling spam filter

[Haïkel Guémar]

Le 30/03/2014 18:54, Matthew Miller a écrit :

You don't usually see 'em because they hit the moderation queue, but this
list gets a ridiculous amount of spam. I've enabled spam filtering and will
now automatically discard highly-scored spam messages. This shouldn't affect
any legitimate messages, but if you post and it doesn't get through... that
might be it and I'll look at adjusting the settings.



do you need help for moderating the list ?

regards,
H.
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Re: Redacted our PRD a tiny bit

[Haïkel Guémar]

Le 14/02/2014 06:44, Sandro red Mathys a écrit :

FYI, I redacted the PRD a tiny bit in the past 24h - mostly because I
needed to read the whole thing anyway (catching up on things I missed
in the past two months due to my ongoing Tokyo adventure).

So there were some typos or duplicate words, etc. that I fixed. I also
felt urged to replace Amazon by AWS at least once so as to not confuse
people and add one or two links. Last but not least, I added the FESCo
approval date to the history.

Hope you don't mind any of those (IMHO very minor) changes. Otherwise,
please feel free to undo them (or tell me to do so). Here's the full
diff:
https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Cloud_PRDdiff=369895oldid=369157

Cheers,
Sandro

PS. Great job everyone, that document is amazing work done. And
apologies I totally missed the chance to participate in its writing.
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I agree with the changes, thank you for proof-reading the PRD :)

regards,
H.
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Re: min-metadata-service 2014.2

[Haïkel Guémar]

Le 12/02/2014 00:32, Colin Walters a écrit :

Hi,

https://github.com/cgwalters/min-metadata-service

is a new project of mine which might be of interest to a potential few 
people here in the cloud space that are building smaller operating 
systems - small enough to not include Python (or other scripting 
languages).


I just released 2014.2, and it successfully provisions SSH keys from 
OpenStack.




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Thanks for bringing this here, it could be useful in constrained 
environments.
We were having discussions about alternatives to cloud-init, it might be 
worthy to keep an eye on min-metadata-service in the long run.
At least, we should document it so people who wants to build custom 
cloud images could use it. (packaging is already done, so i assume it is 
planned to be submitted to the packages collection if it's not already done)


regards,
H.
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Re: prd is approved by fesco. now: next deliverable!

[Haïkel Guémar]

Great news \o/
I'm quite impatient to start making things happen ^^

H.
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Re: Minutes from today's (12/04/2013) cloud WG meeting

[Haïkel Guémar]

Hi Dennis,

thank you for your feedback.

 I suggest that if you want Release Engineering and QA's help as you 
clearly need it you properly engage with them


+1
I'll repeat it as much as needed: Nobody in the WG want to add more 
burden to Rel-eng or QA. Either we're able to automate things or do it 
ourselves in close collaboration with the aforementioned teams.


 We have no way to determine how big an update set is so that would be 
needed. something to monitor updates for security bugs to trigger image 
creation. you need to assume we have no tooling to do anything you want. 
so someone will need to write and maintain it.


it could be possible to use fedmsg to monitor updates, technically 
do-able, we may need to synchronize with Rel-Eng and infra for the 
proper architecture.


Best regards,
H.
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Re: Fedora.next Product Branding for Cloud

[Haïkel Guémar]

Le 22/11/2013 19:25, Joe Brockmeier a écrit :

On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 05:16:06PM +0100, H. Guémar wrote:

Hi,

since i might be unable to join the cloud WG meeting, here are my thoughts
about it:

1. Just Enough OS for developping SaaS applications in an agile  devops
fashion :).

I think your response and mine are largely similar, but I don't think
we want to limit to SaaS, do we? If someone wants to develop an
application of any kind in public/private cloud, we want to be able to
be the foundation for that.


My definition of SaaS is here quite large, it include every piece of 
software that could benefit from elasticity (on-demand software, 
scale-out applications etc...).
It could also be used as a building block for PaaS like OpenShift, 
Clever Cloud, Heroku etc.


The difference is probably that i'd like to emphasize the devops side, a 
bare image would bring little value to the existing.


The main idea between having products and Fedora.next is reducing the 
scope (target, features, etc.) so we could solve Fedora users issues 
while providing a rock solid experience.
SaaS applications is already a large target, i don't think we could 
bring any value to a larger target.



2. developers *and* operators that develop and maintain SaaS applications
(could be hosted on a cloud, virtualization server, etc...)

Are we talking about the same thing, here? (SaaS)
SaaS is a delivery model, it could be hosted on virtualization servers: 
from basic kvm/libvirt to full-fledged oVirt or vSphere. Cloud hosting 
is commonly understood as IaaS/PaaS, but as a developer, most of the 
time, development and testing is done on bare metal  virtual machines.
Having exactely the very same image for development/staging/production 
environment would be an improvement of our target workflow.
We should learn from Vagrant success though it's not-so-good piece of 
software, does solve an important issue to devops teams.



Best,

jzb

best regards,
H.
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Re: Fedora.next Product Branding for Cloud

[Haïkel Guémar]

Le 22/11/2013 21:02, Joe Brockmeier a écrit :


Ah, OK.

For sanity's sake, can we use industry definitions instead of coining
our own? SaaS == Software as a Service, e.g. Salesforce or Dropbox.


agreed, i'm not a native speaker so it's probably a misunderstanding, i 
wanted to convey that SaaS as a delivery model covers many use cases.


best regards,
H.
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Re: GCE - cloud init, or google-daemon/google-startup-scripts

[Haïkel Guémar]

Hi,

the more predictible for the user, the better.
Cloud-init does a great job abstracting image initialization accross 
platforms, so i'd rather stick to one method in our default image.


Anyway, google-daemon/initscript should be packaged and made available 
in Fedora anyway.


best regards,
H.
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Re: Interaction and intersection with the server WG

[Haïkel Guémar]

Le 14/11/2013 08:25, Matthias Runge a écrit :

Hey everybody,

during yesterday's cloud WG meeting, the question about interaction and
interference with the server WG came to us.

There are quite a few intersection points, e.g. when thinking about
providing cloud server infrastructure (which probably belongs to server
WG). But when it comes to ssh key injection in the cloud image itself,
we need both WG to collaborate.

Thus, I'd like to ask for opinions: should we (as Cloud WG) take
responsibilities for cloud infrastructure, should we deny that, how do
you differentiate between cloud and server WG?

Matthias
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Hi,

Server WG is managing a hell lot of things:
* web servers
* database servers
* cloud hosting
etc.


My POV is that it's impossible to do everything, the cloud WG should 
collaborate with the Server WG on the cloud hosting questions.

Our responsibilities:
* acting as a stakeholder for the cloud questions in the server WG: i 
recommend having a representative who'll voice us

* taking server-related tasks: packaging, testing, etc.
* making sure that cloud  server products evolve together is in sane way.
Active collaboration between our two WG is the only way to make Fedora 
the best platform for cloud computing.


If i had to give one reason: the Fedora Cloud product *must* be runnable 
on top of the Fedora Server product. Fedora has always strived to be 
self-sufficient, there's no reason to change that. Neglecting the 
hosting side would be un-fedora.


best regards,
H.
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Re: Attending AWS re:Invent - what would you like to know?

[Haïkel Guémar]

Le 11/11/2013 17:28, Joe Brockmeier a écrit :

I'm going to be going to AWS re:Invent this week with an eye to talking
to people about how they're using images on AWS and how Fedora can
improve there. (Among other things.)

If you were in my shoes, any specific questions you'd like answers to?

Best,

jzb


Hi,

I have many questions but i'll focus on our mainline product aka cloud 
image:
* what do expect to find on a base image and what you actually find ? 
Are there any missing tools or unrequired stuff ?
* which frequency, do you refresh your images ? (system updates, 
application updates etc...)

* do you use any tool to generate your own images ? which ones ?
* do you use configuration management tools on your images like Puppet, 
Chef, Ansible ? Would you like to get them embedded on our images ?
* if Fedora Cloud Product was offering parallel installable applicative 
stacks (ie: python 2.7/3.3, php 5.4/5.5/5.6, java 6/7/8 etc.), would you 
use it ? Would it solve any issue in your day job ?

* support duration ? 1/2/3 years ?
* update frequency of the base image ? weekly ? monthly ?


best regards,
H.

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Re: Redesign of Landing page [Roles]

[Haïkel Guémar]

Le 31/10/2013 13:23, Dave Neary a écrit :

Hi Haikel,


Could you hold off until next week or so? They're undergoing changes all
the time right now.

Thanks,
Dave.



No problem, we could already start working on the PRD using these 
personas as a basis.


Thanks,
H.
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Re: ZOMG WHAT ARE WE BUILDING?!

[Haïkel Guémar]

Le 30/10/2013 21:30, Joe Brockmeier a écrit :

Hi all,

(For those who weren't in today's IRC meeting, I sorta apologize for the
subject line. Sorta.)

As we were discussing today - we need to decide what we are building,
and (almost as importantly) what we're not building. We've agreed that
we want to be cooperating with the server SIG, but don't necessarily
plan to build a foundation for an IaaS ourselves.

Some of the questions that were raised during the meeting:

- Should we drop 32-bit?

Not yet, it's still widely used on low-end instances.

- Should we be targeting ARM?
Definitively, many server manufacturers are investing on ARM hardware 
like Dell, HP ...

I'm more worried about QA since we don't have much ARM hardware.

- Do we worry about supporting ALL THE METHODS of building the image, or
   no? (I recommend we focus on One True Way so as not to confuse
   everyone with 80 different ways they *could* do it.)


Ideally, we should at least support a portable way to build images (at 
least on other GNU/Linux systems). It's convenient for our users and 
ease integration with cloud platforms like OpenStack (it has been done 
with Horizon and Image Factory: 
http://blog.aeolusproject.org/building-openstack-images-with-image-factory/) 




Other questions, thoughts, comments, flames?

I also want to recommend that we think hard about not just what we
build, but accompanying it with appropriate amounts of documentation for
the developers/users we expect to be consuming the image. I'm sure it
goes without saying that we would document what we do, but I would like
to see this thought about each step of the way so that when we get to a
finished product, it's dead easy to adopt.


Let's say, that an user come to our landing page, what should she find ?
* a clear mission statement
* description of various use cases each of them linking to a short 
tutorial (ie: deploy my node.js app in 5 minutes in openstack, build and 
deploy my infrastructure using puppet/ansible/whatever)

* how to participate in the Cloud SIG
* user documentation (both narrative and references) = we need to 
collaborate with the documentation team
* users  partners testimonials (yes, if we want to build a product, we 
have to collaborate with industrial partners, neglecting them or the 
community won't do us any good)

* external ressources

Best,

jzb

Thanks,
H.
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Re: Cloud product kernel requirements

[Haïkel Guémar]

Le 30/10/2013 15:07, Josh Boyer a écrit :

Hi All,

I realize the WG is just forming up and you have a lot of other items
to cover for now, but I wanted to get this sent out and have people
start thinking about it sooner rather than later.

The kernel team has heard in the past that the Cloud group would like
to see something of a more minimal kernel for usage in cloud images.
We'd like to hear the requirements for what this smaller image would
need to cover.

Right now, a default x86_64 kernel package on f20 is ~134MB installed.
  Most of that is device drivers installed in /lib/modules/`uname -r`/.
  The vmlinux binary is about 5MB and the initramfs (which is created
at install time and can actually vary quite widely depending on
various things) is about 11MB.  Drivers can be trimmed to a degree,
but please keep in mind that the kernel is already relatively small
for the functionality it provides.  For example, it is not much bigger
than glibc-common (119MB).

So, some caveats to keep in mind while you're thinking about this:

1) We're mostly talking about packaging here, not building a separate
cloud kernel package or vmlinux.  The kernel team really wants to have
a single vmlinux across the 3 products if at all possible.  We can't
scale to much else.

Seems reasonsable.

2) What usecases is the cloud image going to cover?  E.g. is it just
virtio stuff, or will it also fit PCI passthru (which then requires
drivers for those PCI devices)?


We're still discussing our targeted platforms.
As for PCI pass-through, if we target hypervisors (KVM, Xen) or 
virtualization platforms (oVirt, vSphere), it will be a requirement, if 
we target {I,P}aaS platforms, not so much.




3) What are the common provisioning requirements that are driving the
size reduction?  (See comment about glibc-common.  I would think
change is needed in multiple packages, not just the kernel.)


As you pay for storage, the more trimmed down image we can bring, the 
better.
For instance, Ubuntu AWS image is about 228MB compressed and they do 
pretty well on that matter

Uncompressed the raw disk image is 1.5 GB, and the vmlinux 5 MB

4) Other cloudy stuff that I'm entirely unaware of that might be
relevant.  Explain it to me like I'm a child.

Thanks!

josh


Thank you for sharing your concerns with us.

Best regards,
H.
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Re: F19 AMI Cloud Images - how to su? (sudo works)

[Haïkel Guémar]

Le 22/10/2013 22:46, Philip Rhoades a écrit :

People,

Am I forced to use sudo all the time?  Is it possible to su - somehow?

Thanks,

Phil.



root account is disabled by default on AMI, you can enable it using 
cloud-init -not recommended-, please add the following lines in you 
user-data:


#cloud-config
 disable_root: 0


best regards,
H.
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