Re: [cmake-developers] Drop support for older Xcode versions?

[Gregor Jasny via cmake-developers]

Hello,

On 19/02/16 00:34, Davy Durham wrote:

Actually we have to keep an os x 10.8 box up with the 10.7 sdk using
xcode 4.2 targeting 10.6. Apple long ago stopped allowing you to target
such old APIs in more recent xcodes.


At my company we build 10.6 compatible software using Xcode 6.3.

What exactly does not work for you with Xcode 6/7?

Thanks,
Gregor
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Re: [cmake-developers] Drop support for older Xcode versions?

[Davy Durham]

Actually we have to keep an os x 10.8 box up with the 10.7 sdk using xcode 4.2 
targeting 10.6. Apple long ago stopped allowing you to target such old APIs in 
more recent xcodes.

Sent from my personalized C Spire Galaxy S III

 Original message From: Sean McBride 
<s...@rogue-research.com> Date:02/18/2016  17:25  (GMT-06:00) 
To: Eric Wing <ewmail...@gmail.com>, cmake-developers@cmake.org 
Subject: Re: [cmake-developers] Drop support for older Xcode 
versions? 
On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 15:25:31 -0800, Eric Wing said:

>On 2/9/16, Davy Durham <ddur...@davyandbeth.com> wrote:
>> I'll say that in my line of work, we still have to support OS X 10.6
>> (just dropped 10.5 support) .. And we're doing this at Apple's own
>> request/demand!  It's not fun.  I've had to hack tools around to get
>> somewhat newer tool chains to continue to work, but it's been /great/
>> that cmake hasn't been an obstacle in this endeavour.
>
>Supporting 10.6...this is what I'm referring to. In Apple's world,
>this means you are on 10.11 using Xcode 7.3 and setting the Deployment
>target to 10.6.
>
>I know for hard cases, it is never that simple, but do you really need
>to be on 10.6 to develop for 10.6?

As you say, you can develop on newest and set old deployment target.

But when you run into a bug that only reproduces on 10.6, what then?  The 
nicest is to build & debug on 10.6 so you can debug it.  This means being able 
to use the (newest) Xcode that supports that OS.

Again, I don't care about 10.6 per se, but substitute 10.x for whatever the 
oldest you care about is, and the above still applies.

Cheers,

-- 

Sean McBride, B. Eng s...@rogue-research.com
Rogue Researchwww.rogue-research.com 
Mac Software Developer  Montréal, Québec, Canada


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Re: [cmake-developers] Drop support for older Xcode versions?

[Sean McBride]

On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 15:25:31 -0800, Eric Wing said:

>On 2/9/16, Davy Durham  wrote:
>> I'll say that in my line of work, we still have to support OS X 10.6
>> (just dropped 10.5 support) .. And we're doing this at Apple's own
>> request/demand!  It's not fun.  I've had to hack tools around to get
>> somewhat newer tool chains to continue to work, but it's been /great/
>> that cmake hasn't been an obstacle in this endeavour.
>
>Supporting 10.6...this is what I'm referring to. In Apple's world,
>this means you are on 10.11 using Xcode 7.3 and setting the Deployment
>target to 10.6.
>
>I know for hard cases, it is never that simple, but do you really need
>to be on 10.6 to develop for 10.6?

As you say, you can develop on newest and set old deployment target.

But when you run into a bug that only reproduces on 10.6, what then?  The 
nicest is to build & debug on 10.6 so you can debug it.  This means being able 
to use the (newest) Xcode that supports that OS.

Again, I don't care about 10.6 per se, but substitute 10.x for whatever the 
oldest you care about is, and the above still applies.

Cheers,

-- 

Sean McBride, B. Eng s...@rogue-research.com
Rogue Researchwww.rogue-research.com 
Mac Software Developer  Montréal, Québec, Canada


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Re: [cmake-developers] Drop support for older Xcode versions?

[Eric Wing]

On 2/9/16, Davy Durham  wrote:
> I'll say that in my line of work, we still have to support OS X 10.6
> (just dropped 10.5 support) .. And we're doing this at Apple's own
> request/demand!  It's not fun.  I've had to hack tools around to get
> somewhat newer tool chains to continue to work, but it's been /great/
> that cmake hasn't been an obstacle in this endeavour.

Supporting 10.6...this is what I'm referring to. In Apple's world,
this means you are on 10.11 using Xcode 7.3 and setting the Deployment
target to 10.6.

I know for hard cases, it is never that simple, but do you really need
to be on 10.6 to develop for 10.6?

A corollary issue is that when you buy a new Mac, it usually can't
boot an operating system older than the one it shipped with. Backwards
compatibility is hard. This suggests two alternative paths:

- CMake archives older versions. You can always download the last
official supported version for CMake that runs on 10.6.

- We split the Xcode generators into per-version buckets. (Xcode 3, 4,
5, 6, 7). Work freezes on older generators after awhile, but hopefully
won't break. (Yeah, I know core CMake changes can get dicey, which is
why I didn't really want to suggest this.)

Anyway food for thought.
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Re: [cmake-developers] Drop support for older Xcode versions?

[Davy Durham]

I'll say that in my line of work, we still have to support OS X 10.6 
(just dropped 10.5 support) .. And we're doing this at Apple's own 
request/demand!  It's not fun.  I've had to hack tools around to get 
somewhat newer tool chains to continue to work, but it's been /great/ 
that cmake hasn't been an obstacle in this endeavour.






On 02/08/2016 11:48 PM, Tim Blechmann wrote:

Given Apple's encouragement of developers to always update...

They certainly do, as Eric described.  However, just like everyone
else, Apple often ships regressions in Xcode and it's sometimes vital
to be able to use older versions.  Similarly, if you want to deploy
an app to an older OS, it's very useful to be able to build-run-debug
on that OS, and since the newest Xcodes only run on the newest OSes,
one needs an older Xcode to test/debug on older OSes.

if a project relies on an old xcode version, does it need to use the
most up-to-date cmake? also, there are always make/ninja generators ...




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Re: [cmake-developers] Drop support for older Xcode versions?

[Davy Durham]

I should also have mentioned that we're supporting a number of other 
platforms at the same time.. hence our use of cmake.  And would rather 
not have to maintain cmake files that are lowest-common-denominator for 
the version of cmake that has to continue working on OS X 10.6


On 02/09/2016 08:49 AM, Davy Durham wrote:
I'll say that in my line of work, we still have to support OS X 10.6 
(just dropped 10.5 support) .. And we're doing this at Apple's own 
request/demand!  It's not fun.  I've had to hack tools around to get 
somewhat newer tool chains to continue to work, but it's been /great/ 
that cmake hasn't been an obstacle in this endeavour.






On 02/08/2016 11:48 PM, Tim Blechmann wrote:

Given Apple's encouragement of developers to always update...

They certainly do, as Eric described.  However, just like everyone
else, Apple often ships regressions in Xcode and it's sometimes vital
to be able to use older versions.  Similarly, if you want to deploy
an app to an older OS, it's very useful to be able to build-run-debug
on that OS, and since the newest Xcodes only run on the newest OSes,
one needs an older Xcode to test/debug on older OSes.

if a project relies on an old xcode version, does it need to use the
most up-to-date cmake? also, there are always make/ninja generators ...








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Re: [cmake-developers] Drop support for older Xcode versions?

[Sean McBride]

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 10:31:17 -0500, Brad King said:

>Sean, it looks like you are still running nightly tests on OS X
>10.6 with Xcode 4.2:
>
>  https://open.cdash.org/viewNotes.php?buildid=4226138
>
>and OS X 10.5 with Xcode 3.1:
>
>  https://open.cdash.org/viewNotes.php?buildid=4226202

Yeah, mostly because those machines haven't died either. :)  If/when it's 
decided to drop those Xcodes, I'll switch those builds to makefile generator.

>Given Apple's encouragement of developers to always update...

They certainly do, as Eric described.  However, just like everyone else, Apple 
often ships regressions in Xcode and it's sometimes vital to be able to use 
older versions.  Similarly, if you want to deploy an app to an older OS, it's 
very useful to be able to build-run-debug on that OS, and since the newest 
Xcodes only run on the newest OSes, one needs an older Xcode to test/debug on 
older OSes.

Cheers,

-- 

Sean McBride, B. Eng s...@rogue-research.com
Rogue Researchwww.rogue-research.com 
Mac Software Developer  Montréal, Québec, Canada


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Re: [cmake-developers] Drop support for older Xcode versions?

[Tim Blechmann]

>> Given Apple's encouragement of developers to always update...
> 
> They certainly do, as Eric described.  However, just like everyone
> else, Apple often ships regressions in Xcode and it's sometimes vital
> to be able to use older versions.  Similarly, if you want to deploy
> an app to an older OS, it's very useful to be able to build-run-debug
> on that OS, and since the newest Xcodes only run on the newest OSes,
> one needs an older Xcode to test/debug on older OSes.

if a project relies on an old xcode version, does it need to use the
most up-to-date cmake? also, there are always make/ninja generators ...


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Re: [cmake-developers] Drop support for older Xcode versions?

[Brad King]

On 02/07/2016 01:54 PM, Michael Jackson wrote:
>> What is the oldest version of OS X that CMake actually runs on?
>> I guess I would support the last version of Xcode that actually
>> ran on that platform. In reality this is probably 10.6.8?
[snip]
On 02/08/2016 10:21 AM, Sean McBride wrote:
> What's the oldest version of Xcode that CMake currently supports?

We still have nightly testing on OS X 10.4 with Xcode 2.5.  It was
in support of the i386/ppc universal release binary but that was
dropped as of CMake 3.4.  Now it is really only "just in case" and
because the machine running the tests has not died yet.  I'm not
opposed to dropping Xcode generator support for it since anyone
with such an old machine can always use the makefile generator.

Sean, it looks like you are still running nightly tests on OS X
10.6 with Xcode 4.2:

  https://open.cdash.org/viewNotes.php?buildid=4226138

and OS X 10.5 with Xcode 3.1:

  https://open.cdash.org/viewNotes.php?buildid=4226202

but perhaps do not need the actual Xcode IDE generator to work.

> Personally, I think supporting Xcode 5.0+ would be reasonable at this point.
> It was released about 2.5 years ago and can run on OS X 10.8.

Given Apple's encouragement of developers to always update I think
that would be reasonable for the Xcode IDE generator.  Xcode older
than 6 or so will not even run on OS X 10.11.  Let's give this
thread a while to see if anyone else has feedback.

Thanks,
-Brad

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Re: [cmake-developers] Drop support for older Xcode versions?

[Sean McBride]

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 11:49:07 +0100, Gregor Jasny via cmake-developers said:

>I'd like to get your feedback on deprecating or dropping support for
>older Xcode versions. During changes on the Xcode generator it gets
>harder and harder to test against old and very old Xcode versions like 3
>and 4.
>
>Are there still users around for these versions of Xcode?

Wikipedia has a nice table of Xcode & OS X:



The problem with supporting only current - 1 as Eric suggests is that also 
excludes older versions of OS X, see the 'min OS X to run' column.

What's the oldest version of Xcode that CMake currently supports?

Personally, I think supporting Xcode 5.0+ would be reasonable at this point.  
It was released about 2.5 years ago and can run on OS X 10.8.

Cheers,

-- 

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Rogue Researchwww.rogue-research.com 
Mac Software Developer  Montréal, Québec, Canada


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Re: [cmake-developers] Drop support for older Xcode versions?

[Brad King]

On 02/07/2016 01:54 PM, Michael Jackson wrote:
>> What is the oldest version of OS X that CMake actually runs on?
>> I guess I would support the last version of Xcode that actually
>> ran on that platform. In reality this is probably 10.6.8?
[snip]
On 02/08/2016 10:21 AM, Sean McBride wrote:
> What's the oldest version of Xcode that CMake currently supports?

We still have nightly testing on OS X 10.4 with Xcode 2.5.  It was
in support of the i386/ppc universal release binary but that was
dropped as of CMake 3.4.  Now it is really only "just in case" and
because the machine running the tests has not died yet.  I'm not
opposed to dropping Xcode generator support for it since anyone
with such an old machine can always use the makefile generator.

Sean, it looks like you are still running nightly tests on OS X
10.6 with Xcode 4.2:

  https://open.cdash.org/viewNotes.php?buildid=4226138

and OS X 10.5 with Xcode 3.1:

  https://open.cdash.org/viewNotes.php?buildid=4226202

but perhaps do not need the actual Xcode IDE generator to work.

> Personally, I think supporting Xcode 5.0+ would be reasonable at this point.
> It was released about 2.5 years ago and can run on OS X 10.8.

Given Apple's encouragement of developers to always update I think
that would be reasonable for the Xcode IDE generator.  Xcode older
than 6 or so will not even run on OS X 10.11.  Let's give this
thread a while to see if anyone else has feedback.

Thanks,
-Brad

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Re: [cmake-developers] Drop support for older Xcode versions?

[Eric Wing]

On 2/6/16, Gregor Jasny via cmake-developers  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'd like to get your feedback on deprecating or dropping support for
> older Xcode versions. During changes on the Xcode generator it gets
> harder and harder to test against old and very old Xcode versions like 3
> and 4.
>
> Are there still users around for these versions of Xcode?
>
> PS: I'm talking here about the Xcode generator which creates Xcode
> projects, not the Makefile or Ninja generator.
>
> Thanks,
> Gregor
> --
>

I personally am not using them. My more serious problem is that the
Xcode projects being generated now are not keeping up with modern
Xcode and the features that need to be accessible/set. The reality of
Apple development is you must be on the latest stable Xcode if you
need to ship apps on the Mac or iOS Store, otherwise Apple can reject
your app. Their design philosophy, regardless if you agree with it or
not, is to build with the latest and build against backwards
compatibility deployment targets, not build with the oldest and pray
it will work with future changes that couldn't be predicted at the
time. Their platform, their rules.

So I'm all in favor of dropping legacy platforms if it means
ultimately helping make the Xcode generator work better for modern
Xcode. General rule of thumb for Apple development is support the
latest and -1 version. If you can do more, fine, but don't compromise
the recent stuff in order to achieve distant backwards compatibility.

-Eric
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[cmake-developers] Drop support for older Xcode versions?

[Gregor Jasny via cmake-developers]

Hello,

I'd like to get your feedback on deprecating or dropping support for
older Xcode versions. During changes on the Xcode generator it gets
harder and harder to test against old and very old Xcode versions like 3
and 4.

Are there still users around for these versions of Xcode?

PS: I'm talking here about the Xcode generator which creates Xcode
projects, not the Makefile or Ninja generator.

Thanks,
Gregor
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