Re: Stus-List Problem with 2 new fuel gauges...long story

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

The sender doesn't have a polarity.  It is just a resistance.  Is this what
the back of your sender looks like?  Which wires do you have attached where?

Josh
On Apr 4, 2015 10:49 PM, "Robert Boyer via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> When you connect the sensing wire to ground, the needle goes positive all
> the way as it should do but it does not register the fuel level.
>
> I now believe that one gauge is working correctly because the needle moved
> slightly positive when energized--but the tank is completely empty.
>
> The other gauge is hooked up the same way but I think the wires inside the
> tank sender is reversed, which makes the needle go in the wrong direction.
> I remove the ground from the sender and reverse the sender polarity
> tomorrow.
>
> Wal, would I also have to reverse the power supply polarity on the gauge
> to make it work properly?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Bob
>
> Bob Boyer
> S/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD
> 1983 C&C Landfall 38 - Hull #230
> email: dainyr...@icloud.com
> blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
>
> "There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply
> messing about in boats."  --Kenneth Grahame
>
> On Apr 4, 2015, at 10:40 PM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Josh,
>
> This is certainly not sailing related, but if i remember it correctly,
> they are all really ammeters (the current flowing through them creates the
> magnetic field that moves the needle).
>
> Marek
>
>
>
> Josh Muckley via CnC-List wrote:
>
>  All analog meters are just measuring the "voltage drop" across a
> resistance.  The key is to have the appropriate voltage input +12v.  If the
> +12v and the sensing line were reversed then the "voltage drop" would be
> "negative" driving the needle to the empty peg.
>
> Josh
> On Apr 4, 2015 7:08 PM, "Wally Bryant via CnC-List" 
> wrote:
>
> I thought they were Ohm meters. Anyway, I just Googled it to make sure,
> and see a ton of pages on testing marine fuel sender resistance.
>
> Wal
>
> you wrote:
>
> I agree with your diagnosis.  It's gotta be reversed polarity...of the
> sense and gnd.  Fundamentally the fuel gages are just voltage meters.  They
> respond proportionally to the voltage drop across the variable resistance
> in the sender.  I would disconnect the leads and use an ohm meter to
> measure and validate the resistance of the senders.  Switching the polarity
> of the sense and gnd monetarily probably won't break anything.  Before
> doing so validate that your wiring looks like the attached picture.
>
>
>
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>
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Re: Stus-List Problem with 2 new fuel gauges...long story

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Excerpt from the following link:
http://www.doityourself.com/stry/how-does-an-analog-voltmeter-work

An analog voltmeter works by passing a current through a coil that is
suspended between two permanent magnets. This coil of wire is known as a
moving coil since it moves in relation to the permanent magnets when a
voltage is applied. When a voltage is applied and the voltage scale is
chosen, a resistor of known value is placed in series with the measurement
leads. This way Ohm's Law can be applied. The applied voltage through the
coil creates a magnetic field which acts against the permanent magnets that
the pointer pivot is placed between. This magnetic field causes a
corresponding deflection of the pointer. This pointer deflection will be in
direct proportion to the amount of voltage being applied to the moving coil
wrapping the pointer pivot. Once pointer oscillation has stopped, accurate
readings can be made.



So to summerize:  Yes Marek, basic analog meter movement is caused by
current flow through the meter coil.

I suppose in a a way that makes all anaolog coil meters "current" meters.
I referred to the fuel gage as a voltage meter so as to suggest that with
the meter completely removed from the boat a "voltage" applied across the
terminals from sense to ground or sense to vcc (+12v terminal) would cause
meter deflection.  In order to troubleshoot one might select a common 6v
lantern battery for this task.

Using the attached drawing as a referance and understanding that R2 is the
fuel level sender and "D" is the sender "sensing" terminal on the meter.  I
believe that inadvertently swapping the +12v and sense lines or swapping
the ground and +12v lines would cause the symptom of the fuel gage needle
pegging low.

To both our points, the attached picture suggests that the meter being used
is a voltage meter (Vg) and referances the current from points D to B (Ig)
as driving its movement.

Josh
On Apr 4, 2015 10:40 PM, "Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List" <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

>  Josh,
>
> This is certainly not sailing related, but if i remember it correctly,
> they are all really ammeters (the current flowing through them creates the
> magnetic field that moves the needle).
>
> Marek
>
>
>
> Josh Muckley via CnC-List wrote:
>
>  All analog meters are just measuring the "voltage drop" across a
> resistance.  The key is to have the appropriate voltage input +12v.  If the
> +12v and the sensing line were reversed then the "voltage drop" would be
> "negative" driving the needle to the empty peg.
>
> Josh
> On Apr 4, 2015 7:08 PM, "Wally Bryant via CnC-List" 
> wrote:
>
> I thought they were Ohm meters. Anyway, I just Googled it to make sure,
> and see a ton of pages on testing marine fuel sender resistance.
>
> Wal
>
> you wrote:
>
> I agree with your diagnosis.  It's gotta be reversed polarity...of the
> sense and gnd.  Fundamentally the fuel gages are just voltage meters.  They
> respond proportionally to the voltage drop across the variable resistance
> in the sender.  I would disconnect the leads and use an ohm meter to
> measure and validate the resistance of the senders.  Switching the polarity
> of the sense and gnd monetarily probably won't break anything.  Before
> doing so validate that your wiring looks like the attached picture.
>
>
>
> ___
>
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Re: Stus-List Problem with 2 new fuel gauges...long story

[Wally Bryant via CnC-List]

Okay, I'm grinning.  Now we have ammeters, voltmeters, and ohmmeters.  
Let's all just have a beer and admit that we don't really understand 
anything at all. 


I have noticed that when the house bank is low, my WEMA fuel gauge also 
reads low.  I've always wondered why, and figured that it had something 
to do with the voltage differential between positive and ground on the 
house bank somehow affecting the differential between the two on the 
starting bank.  The fuel sensor is definitely wired into the starting 
bank side of things, since it's involved with the whole engine thing.


I'm not a geek, but I suppose I was one once.  I have been drunk now for 
over two weeks, and some people say that there's a woman to blame.  Uh 
Oh, one must be in trouble when one gets Jimmy Buffet lyrics mixed up.


I gotta go fix dinner.

Wal


you wrote:

Josh,

This is certainly not sailing related, but if i remember it correctly, they are 
all really ammeters (the current flowing through them creates the magnetic 
field that moves the needle).

Marek


Josh Muckley via CnC-List wrote:

All analog meters are just measuring the "voltage drop" across a
resistance.  The key is to have the appropriate voltage input +12v.  If the
+12v and the sensing line were reversed then the "voltage drop" would be
"negative" driving the needle to the empty peg.

Josh
I wrote:


I thought they were Ohm meters. Anyway, I just Googled it to make sure,
and see a ton of pages on testing marine fuel sender resistance.

Wal




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Re: Stus-List Problem with 2 new fuel gauges...long story

[Robert Boyer via CnC-List]

When you connect the sensing wire to ground, the needle goes positive all the 
way as it should do but it does not register the fuel level.

I now believe that one gauge is working correctly because the needle moved 
slightly positive when energized--but the tank is completely empty.

The other gauge is hooked up the same way but I think the wires inside the tank 
sender is reversed, which makes the needle go in the wrong direction.  I remove 
the ground from the sender and reverse the sender polarity tomorrow.

Wal, would I also have to reverse the power supply polarity on the gauge to 
make it work properly?

Thanks!

Bob

Bob Boyer
S/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD
1983 C&C Landfall 38 - Hull #230
email: dainyr...@icloud.com 
blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com

"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply 
messing about in boats."  --Kenneth Grahame

> On Apr 4, 2015, at 10:40 PM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Josh,
> 
> This is certainly not sailing related, but if i remember it correctly, they 
> are all really ammeters (the current flowing through them creates the 
> magnetic field that moves the needle).  
> 
> Marek
> 
> 
> 
> Josh Muckley via CnC-List wrote:
> 
> 
> All analog meters are just measuring the "voltage drop" across a resistance.  
> The key is to have the appropriate voltage input +12v.  If the +12v and the 
> sensing line were reversed then the "voltage drop" would be "negative" 
> driving the needle to the empty peg.
> 
> Josh
> 
> On Apr 4, 2015 7:08 PM, "Wally Bryant via CnC-List"  
> wrote:
> I thought they were Ohm meters. Anyway, I just Googled it to make sure, and 
> see a ton of pages on testing marine fuel sender resistance.
> 
> Wal
> 
> you wrote:
> I agree with your diagnosis.  It's gotta be reversed polarity...of the
> sense and gnd.  Fundamentally the fuel gages are just voltage meters.  They
> respond proportionally to the voltage drop across the variable resistance
> in the sender.  I would disconnect the leads and use an ohm meter to
> measure and validate the resistance of the senders.  Switching the polarity
> of the sense and gnd monetarily probably won't break anything.  Before
> doing so validate that your wiring looks like the attached picture.
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: Stus-List Problem with 2 new fuel gauges...long story

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

Josh,

This is certainly not sailing related, but if i remember it correctly, they are 
all really ammeters (the current flowing through them creates the magnetic 
field that moves the needle).

Marek


Josh Muckley via CnC-List wrote:

All analog meters are just measuring the "voltage drop" across a
resistance.  The key is to have the appropriate voltage input +12v.  If the
+12v and the sensing line were reversed then the "voltage drop" would be
"negative" driving the needle to the empty peg.

Josh
On Apr 4, 2015 7:08 PM, "Wally Bryant via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> I thought they were Ohm meters. Anyway, I just Googled it to make sure,
> and see a ton of pages on testing marine fuel sender resistance.
>
> Wal
>
> you wrote:
>
>> I agree with your diagnosis.  It's gotta be reversed polarity...of the
>> sense and gnd.  Fundamentally the fuel gages are just voltage meters.
>> They
>> respond proportionally to the voltage drop across the variable resistance
>> in the sender.  I would disconnect the leads and use an ohm meter to
>> measure and validate the resistance of the senders.  Switching the
>> polarity
>> of the sense and gnd monetarily probably won't break anything.  Before
>> doing so validate that your wiring looks like the attached picture.
>>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Problem with 2 new fuel gauges...long story

[Russ & Melody via CnC-List]

It's okay Josh.

Wally is a geek, he knows. I think he was just entertaining himself. 
Maybe it gets lonely sometimes in Mexico after the sun goes down. :)


Cheers, Russ
east side, Vancouver Island

At 06:13 PM 04/04/2015, you wrote:

All analog meters are just measuring the "voltage drop" across a 
resistance.  The key is to have the appropriate voltage input 
+12v.  If the +12v and the sensing line were reversed then the 
"voltage drop" would be "negative" driving the needle to the empty peg.


Josh
On Apr 4, 2015 7:08 PM, "Wally Bryant via CnC-List" 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
I thought they were Ohm meters. Anyway, I just Googled it to make 
sure, and see a ton of pages on testing marine fuel sender resistance.


Wal

you wrote:
I agree with your diagnosis.  It's gotta be reversed polarity...of the
sense and gnd.  Fundamentally the fuel gages are just voltage meters.  They
respond proportionally to the voltage drop across the variable resistance
in the sender.  I would disconnect the leads and use an ohm meter to
measure and validate the resistance of the senders.  Switching the polarity
of the sense and gnd monetarily probably won't break anything.  Before
doing so validate that your wiring looks like the attached picture.
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Re: Stus-List Problem with 2 new fuel gauges...long story

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

All analog meters are just measuring the "voltage drop" across a
resistance.  The key is to have the appropriate voltage input +12v.  If the
+12v and the sensing line were reversed then the "voltage drop" would be
"negative" driving the needle to the empty peg.

Josh
On Apr 4, 2015 7:08 PM, "Wally Bryant via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> I thought they were Ohm meters. Anyway, I just Googled it to make sure,
> and see a ton of pages on testing marine fuel sender resistance.
>
> Wal
>
> you wrote:
>
>> I agree with your diagnosis.  It's gotta be reversed polarity...of the
>> sense and gnd.  Fundamentally the fuel gages are just voltage meters.
>> They
>> respond proportionally to the voltage drop across the variable resistance
>> in the sender.  I would disconnect the leads and use an ohm meter to
>> measure and validate the resistance of the senders.  Switching the
>> polarity
>> of the sense and gnd monetarily probably won't break anything.  Before
>> doing so validate that your wiring looks like the attached picture.
>>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Problem with 2 new fuel gauges...long story

[Wally Bryant via CnC-List]

I thought they were Ohm meters. Anyway, I just Googled it to make sure, 
and see a ton of pages on testing marine fuel sender resistance.


Wal

you wrote:

I agree with your diagnosis.  It's gotta be reversed polarity...of the
sense and gnd.  Fundamentally the fuel gages are just voltage meters.  They
respond proportionally to the voltage drop across the variable resistance
in the sender.  I would disconnect the leads and use an ohm meter to
measure and validate the resistance of the senders.  Switching the polarity
of the sense and gnd monetarily probably won't break anything.  Before
doing so validate that your wiring looks like the attached picture.



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Re: Stus-List Introduction and a question

[David Lenehan via CnC-List]

Lots of good information from everyone.  Thank you.  I've also asked for
advice on Cruisers Forum and they've tossed in a lot of things.  I have to
admit I've been given a lot to think about but that's no complaint.  I've
also had family here from Queensland so I've been distracted though I've
managed to read everyone's input.

While I'm still at the research stage, I've now been introduced to two
boats which may change my timing a bit.  They are of a price (assuming they
clear a rigorous survey) which could well make an early purchase viable.
And, I could then customise the boat with the pennies left over from a more
expensive option - which would be considerable in each case.  It's food for
thought.

Any other advice is a positive from my point of view.

One question I do have...  How wet is the cockpit in a blow of steep seas?
A bit of damp never hurt anyone and my racing background means I'm familiar
with this phenomenon.  The point was raised elsewhere because of the low
cockpit coamings.  Comments?

On 5 April 2015 at 00:05, D.J. Platt via CnC-List 
wrote:

>  As with all gen 3 C&C's , get a surveyor who knows something about balsa
> cored hulls and have him go over it carefully.
>
> Good luck
>
> David
>
> Wanderer
> C&C 32
>
>  *From:* Jim Watts via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Friday, April 03, 2015 4:41 PM
> *To:* David Lenehan  ; 1 CnC List
> 
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Introduction and a question
>
> Hi David. I'm the guy who recommended you come here. Hopefully someone
> chimes in soon. I think Fred Hazzard has a 44.
>
>  Jim Watts
> Paradigm Shift
> C&C 35 Mk III
> Victoria, BC
>
> On 2 April 2015 at 15:56, David Lenehan via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>>  Hi, I'm David.  I live in Melbourne Australia and I've got lots of
>> blue-water experience in both racing and cruising.  Sadly I am currently
>> between boats having lived in Kazakhstan for the past few years.  But I'm
>> now searching for a boat I hope will be my last.  At this moment my
>> preference is for the C&C 44.  Everything I've managed to collect lavishes
>> praise on this boat from the quality of the construction to the superb and
>> well thought through design and the sparkling performance.
>>
>> That's the gloss.  There are several currently on the market spread
>> around through Eastern Canada, the Caribbean and San Diego.  None in
>> Australia but I'll enjoy bringing her home once I find the one for me.
>>
>> What I really need to know is what to look for when I start stepping
>> aboard the boats that are available.  I'd appreciate comments from those of
>> you with experience both in the 44 and with generic issues with C&C boats
>> in general.  Any sensible comments and advice are welcome.
>>
>> Kind regards
>> David
>>
>> ___
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>>
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Re: Stus-List Harken Furler for sale - Sidney, BC

[Peter Fell via CnC-List]

Furler is sold ... finally!!

For reference, it came apart quite easily with a heat gun, screwdriver (this 
model has set screws, not drift pins) and a stout putty knife to get the foil 
sections separating.

Peter Fell
Sidney, BC
Cygnet
C&C 27 MkIII

From: Peter Fell 
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2014 6:13 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Stus-List Harken Furler for sale - Sidney, BC

For Sale:

Mark 1 Unit 0 Harken furling gear. 

Drum assembly, integral turnbuckle, 7/16" diameter toggle, torque tube, halyard 
swivel. 

Approximately 37-1/2 feet total length, but the top 4-inches or so of the foil 
is damaged. The foil is still assembled and the forestay is still installed but 
the top portion of the forestay is damaged as well. Foil would have to be 
trimmed back to a shorter length and new forestay installed. However, when it 
was removed from the boat, there was some spare foil length under the bottom 
collar. 

The furler is date stamped 1993 but the rigger who installed my new unit deemed 
this one to be in very good condition.

Located in Sidney, British Columbia ... 5-minute walk down the road to a local 
marina, so easy to transport the furler to your boat.

Asking $400

Peter Fell
Sidney, BC
C&C 27 MkIII



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Re: Stus-List Ed Schillay's Wiring Diagram

[Edd Schillay via CnC-List]

Alex,

I love dumb questions. Fire away. 

Seriously, happy to answer anything I can. Been doing a ton of research about 
this subject (nothing else to do with all the snow). 


All the best,

Edd

---
Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
NCC-1701-B
C&C 37+ | City Island, NY
www.StarshipSailing.com
---
914.332.4400  | Office
914.774.9767  | Mobile
---
Sent via iPhone 6
iPhone. iTypos. iApologize

On Apr 4, 2015, at 11:21 AM, Alex Giannelia via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Hi Edd,
 
I love your diagramme and will be lurking on this list to get answers of my 
own.  Mine is a bit simpler than yours, but I plan to re-wire my AC/DC stuff 
after having my electric motor put in and will be re-wiring everything to 
replace the old companionway panel with a Nav station panel and cockpit sub 
panel and all the old wires with new tinned ones.
 
So, I will compose my questions to you first, then later when back from the 
boat. 
 
My boat will, out of space etc and personal leanings be a bit less ambitious 
than yours, but am intrigued with all the devices.
 
So, if you don’t mind a pile of dumb questions, let me fire away.
 
Regards,
 
Alexander M. Giannelia
President
 
the airborne sensing corporation
555 Richmond Street West, Suite 912, PO Box 1008, Toronto, Ontario M5V 3B1, 
Canada
 
Phone(416) 203-9858
Mobile(416) 529-0070
Fax  (416) 203-9843
 
*Notre site web est aussi disponible en français! www.airsensing.com
 
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Stus-List Ed Shillay's Wiring Diagramme

[Alex Giannelia via CnC-List]

Hi Edd,

I love your diagramme and will be lurking on this list to get answers of my 
own.  Mine is a bit simpler than yours, but I plan to re-wire my AC/DC stuff 
after having my electric motor put in and will be re-wiring everything to 
replace the old companionway panel with a Nav station panel and cockpit sub 
panel and all the old wires with new tinned ones.

So, I will compose my questions to you first, then later when back from the 
boat.

My boat will, out of space etc and personal leanings be a bit less ambitious 
than yours, but am intrigued with all the devices.

So, if you don't mind a pile of dumb questions, let me fire away.

Regards,

Alexander M. Giannelia
President

the airborne sensing corporation
555 Richmond Street West, Suite 912, PO Box 1008, Toronto, Ontario M5V 3B1, 
Canada

Phone(416) 203-9858
Mobile(416) 529-0070
Fax  (416) 203-9843

*Notre site web est aussi disponible en français! 
www.airsensing.com

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Re: Stus-List Introduction and a question

[D.J. Platt via CnC-List]

As with all gen 3 C&C's , get a surveyor who knows something about balsa cored 
hulls and have him go over it carefully.

Good luck

David

Wanderer
C&C 32


From: Jim Watts via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 4:41 PM
To: David Lenehan ; 1 CnC List 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Introduction and a question


Hi David. I'm the guy who recommended you come here. Hopefully someone chimes 
in soon. I think Fred Hazzard has a 44.



Jim Watts
Paradigm Shift
C&C 35 Mk III
Victoria, BC



On 2 April 2015 at 15:56, David Lenehan via CnC-List  
wrote:

  Hi, I'm David.  I live in Melbourne Australia and I've got lots of blue-water 
experience in both racing and cruising.  Sadly I am currently between boats 
having lived in Kazakhstan for the past few years.  But I'm now searching for a 
boat I hope will be my last.  At this moment my preference is for the C&C 44.  
Everything I've managed to collect lavishes praise on this boat from the 
quality of the construction to the superb and well thought through design and 
the sparkling performance.


  That's the gloss.  There are several currently on the market spread around 
through Eastern Canada, the Caribbean and San Diego.  None in Australia but 
I'll enjoy bringing her home once I find the one for me.

  What I really need to know is what to look for when I start stepping aboard 
the boats that are available.  I'd appreciate comments from those of you with 
experience both in the 44 and with generic issues with C&C boats in general.  
Any sensible comments and advice are welcome.


  Kind regards

  David


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