Stus-List C&C 30 MK1 PHRF racing

[Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List]

Hi Steven, 

"I am pointing well, though wounder if I should pinch more or be more off
the wind for speed? I seemed to be passed on reaching and running"

I don't sail a 30 but for pretty much any boat the pinch vs speed question 
the answer depends on the headsail you use, wind speed, chop, the shape of 
your sails, etc..  For example, my 150% can back-wind the main pretty 
badly on the higher end of its useful wind range compared to the 135 so 
it's a definite trade-off on speed vs point when the wind pipes up 
unexpectedly with the 150% up.. 

I'd say the best place to start is with your boat's polar graph.  I made 
an enlarged / highlighted version of mine that includes the best angles 
for wind speeds listed out and that's plastic laminated / taped to my 
bulkhead.  Unless the winds are very slight I usually point 8-10 degrees 
true less than what the polar graph says that seems to be the sweet spot 
for my setup.  Except for the 150%, my sails are pretty much used-up so 
that might have something to do with it. 

Once you know the ballpark angle, the best way to tell is to compare your 
pointing / boat speed with your competitors and keep a very close eye on 
the windex / wind angle gauge, and even more importantly : The telltales 
on your genoa.  I beat my nemesis (A modified Beneteau First 29 with fresh 
carbon sails) this Wednesday night by mostly out-pointing him and also 
because he missed a nice lift :-) 

As for the whole phrf thing ours is scored  ToD and it seems to work 
fairly well.. 

Some boats seem to have a bit of an edge  When we do everything right it 
seems we can beat pretty much anybody in our current class, even the Yoda 
on his Pearson 29 with a phrf of 213.. We have to finish a country mile 
ahead of him with our 105 phrf but it's do-able :-) 


Regards, 
-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA


 

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Re: Stus-List C&C 30 MK1 PHRF racing

[Steven Tattrie via CnC-List]

This is great info, I am new to this list and wasn't sure how it worked. I
think I figured it out. I couldn't figure out how to search the archive.

I sail out of Barrachois, Nova Scotia. BHYC club. ya it is getting pretty
cool to have soo many C&C though I forgot about the Mirage, lol.  I use to
have a redline 25 that was easy to sail and in my opinion got to be one of
the best boats built.

got some material to read, thanks again Randy

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 7:57 PM, RANDY  wrote:

> It's awesome that you have a half-dozen 30-1s racing in your club.  You
> could have your own little one-design fleet :)  You must be somewhere on
> the Great Lakes I'd guess.  And your competition may be reading this email
> thread :)
>
> Regarding tuning the rig, I just followed the owner's manual.  Centered
> masthead side-to-side measuring with main halyard to rail, tightened upper
> shrouds until turnbuckles were "hard to turn", tightened lowers to have an
> inch of play.  Set 8" rake with backstay adjuster (my backstay doesn't have
> a turnbuckle) and with forestay turnbuckle "hard to turn" i.e. very little
> headsail sag.
>
> Here's what I've found so far racing my new-to-me 30-1 in my club's
> just-ended spring series (ten Wednesday nights).  I raced in a
> non-spinnaker PRHF division sailing triangle courses.  My main
> competition is a couple of Catalina 27s with folding props, rating 221, and
> much more experienced skippers and crews.  I have a fixed prop and 198
> rating and crew of total newbies.
>
> 1. Despite propeller differences, I can meet or beat their boat speed on
> every point of sail under the right conditions: a) the wind has to be up
> enough, say Beaufort 4, to overcome their displacement advantage of about a
> ton; and b) my sails have to be optimally trimmed.  The 30-1 has better
> SA/D and D/L ratios than the Catalina 27, but it takes some wind to see
> those advantages, and it takes good sail trim against experienced
> competition.
>
> 2. They can out-point me by maybe five degrees.  I flew my 155% genoa all
> series, because my rating doesn't account for my 170, and I never had a
> windy enough night to drop back to the 135.  I'll start pinching if I get
> closer than say 40 degrees to the wind with the 155.
>
> 3. I'm getting beat on boat handling and tactics.  Our maneuvers aren't
> sharp enough yet, and I need to have consistently good starts and stay in
> clean air more, and these skippers know the lake's wind patterns better
> than I do.
>
> 4. My 30-1 is stiff as hell.  One night after a race the wind piped up to
> Beaufort 6 and I hit 7.6 knots on beam/close reach, according to GPS, under
> full main and 155, and I *still* didn't get a rail in the water (very close
> though, within an inch or another degree of heel).  Then my genoa tore :)
>  She did want to round up under that much wind and sail, and I'd
> say weather helm requires attention and tuning by Beaufort 5.
>
> I decided to stay in the non-spinnaker fleet for the summer series.  Just
> flew the spinnaker for the first time after the race this past Wednesday
> night, and my crew needs more practice with it.  We had a pre-race crisis
> this week - main halyard jammed at masthead sheave - I was at the masthead
> in a bosun's chair unjamming it during my start sequence :)  We managed to
> get the sails up just in time, but we were discombobulated and this will be
> our throw-out race for the summer series :)
>
> Cheers,
> Randy
>
> --
> *From: *"Steven Tattrie via CnC-List" 
> *To: *"cnc-list" 
> *Cc: *"Steven Tattrie" 
> *Sent: *Friday, July 15, 2016 7:13:00 AM
> *Subject: *Stus-List C&C 30 MK1 PHRF racing
>
> Hi,
>
> I have been PHRF racing at our local club, this is my first year with a
> C&C 30 MK1 (1979) is there a thread or anyone have comments on getting the
> best out of the boat, eg tight rigging, rake, sail selection, strength or
> weaknesses specific to the 30 to stay competitive? I have been sailing for
> a couple decades so not looking for general sailing tips. I want to know
> what is best for the 30MK1 or hear from your experience what work best.
>
> I am pointing well, though wounder if I should pinch more or be more off
> the wind for speed? I seemed to be passed on reaching and running.
>
> FYI - we have about half a dozen 30 MK1 racing a couple redwings, a 32 and
> 35 MK1 racing. All C&C.
>
> Steve
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
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Re: Stus-List C&C 30 MK1 PHRF racing

[Rick Taillieu via CnC-List]

Randy,

 

I can’t comment on rig tuning for a 30 but for your 1-4 list here are a few 
tips.

 

1 – Boat speed is very important. Going up wind keeping up your speed through 
the water will allow the keel to generate lift.

2 – Don’t pinch trying to outpoint the Catalinas.  Don’t trim your genoa closer 
than 4-6” from the spreader, the sail should never touch the spreader, it will 
make you slow.

Do you have inboard tracks? If not still sheet inside the lifelines. I have a 
tape marker on my spreaders 6” from the tip and use that as a trim gauge.

Catalina 27’s have a gift PHRF pretty much everywhere, I have to give them time 
in my 25.

3 – The key to boat handling is practice. Take your crew out on non race days 
and practice starts, mark roundings and sail trim.  I don’t know how many crew 
you have but the helmsman should be concentrating on steering, the trimmers in 
the sail trim and rail meat looking outside the boat for traffic, gusts, lulls 
and shifts and passing them on to the rest of the crew.

4 – Yes, the 30 is very stiff. That means you can carry full sail much longer 
than other boats.  One other point, how old are your sails?

Old sails will be slow and will never out point a boat with newer sails.

 

Good Luck with your racing and keep at it

 

Rick Taillieu

Nemesis

'75 C&C 25  #371

Shearwater Yacht Club

Halifax, NS.

 

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of RANDY via 
CnC-List
Sent: July-15-16 19:57
To: cnc-list
Cc: RANDY; Steven Tattrie
Subject: Re: Stus-List C&C 30 MK1 PHRF racing

 

It's awesome that you have a half-dozen 30-1s racing in your club.  You could 
have your own little one-design fleet :)  You must be somewhere on the Great 
Lakes I'd guess.  And your competition may be reading this email thread :)

 

Regarding tuning the rig, I just followed the owner's manual.  Centered 
masthead side-to-side measuring with main halyard to rail, tightened upper 
shrouds until turnbuckles were "hard to turn", tightened lowers to have an inch 
of play.  Set 8" rake with backstay adjuster (my backstay doesn't have a 
turnbuckle) and with forestay turnbuckle "hard to turn" i.e. very little 
headsail sag.

 

Here's what I've found so far racing my new-to-me 30-1 in my club's just-ended 
spring series (ten Wednesday nights).  I raced in a non-spinnaker PRHF division 
sailing triangle courses.  My main competition is a couple of Catalina 27s with 
folding props, rating 221, and much more experienced skippers and crews.  I 
have a fixed prop and 198 rating and crew of total newbies.

 

1. Despite propeller differences, I can meet or beat their boat speed on every 
point of sail under the right conditions: a) the wind has to be up enough, say 
Beaufort 4, to overcome their displacement advantage of about a ton; and b) my 
sails have to be optimally trimmed.  The 30-1 has better SA/D and D/L ratios 
than the Catalina 27, but it takes some wind to see those advantages, and it 
takes good sail trim against experienced competition.

 

2. They can out-point me by maybe five degrees.  I flew my 155% genoa all 
series, because my rating doesn't account for my 170, and I never had a windy 
enough night to drop back to the 135.  I'll start pinching if I get closer than 
say 40 degrees to the wind with the 155.

 

3. I'm getting beat on boat handling and tactics.  Our maneuvers aren't sharp 
enough yet, and I need to have consistently good starts and stay in clean air 
more, and these skippers know the lake's wind patterns better than I do.

 

4. My 30-1 is stiff as hell.  One night after a race the wind piped up to 
Beaufort 6 and I hit 7.6 knots on beam/close reach, according to GPS, under 
full main and 155, and I *still* didn't get a rail in the water (very close 
though, within an inch or another degree of heel).  Then my genoa tore :)  She 
did want to round up under that much wind and sail, and I'd say weather helm 
requires attention and tuning by Beaufort 5.

 

I decided to stay in the non-spinnaker fleet for the summer series.  Just flew 
the spinnaker for the first time after the race this past Wednesday night, and 
my crew needs more practice with it.  We had a pre-race crisis this week - main 
halyard jammed at masthead sheave - I was at the masthead in a bosun's chair 
unjamming it during my start sequence :)  We managed to get the sails up just 
in time, but we were discombobulated and this will be our throw-out race for 
the summer series :)

 

Cheers,

Randy

 

  _  

From: "Steven Tattrie via CnC-List" 
To: "cnc-list" 
Cc: "Steven Tattrie" 
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 7:13:00 AM
Subject: Stus-List C&C 30 MK1 PHRF racing

 

Hi, 

 

I have been PHRF racing at our local club, this is my first year with a C&C 30 
MK1 (1979) is there a thread or anyone have comments on getting the best out of 
the boat, eg tight rigging, rake, sail selection, strength or weaknesses 
specific to the 30 to stay competitive? I have been sailing for a 

Stus-List modified

[LCHRIS11185--- via CnC-List]

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Re: Stus-List C&C 30 MK1 PHRF racing

[RANDY via CnC-List]

It's awesome that you have a half-dozen 30-1s racing in your club. You could 
have your own little one-design fleet :) You must be somewhere on the Great 
Lakes I'd guess. And your competition may be reading this email thread :) 

Regarding tuning the rig, I just followed the owner's manual. Centered masthead 
side-to-side measuring with main halyard to rail, tightened upper shrouds until 
turnbuckles were "hard to turn", tightened lowers to have an inch of play. Set 
8" rake with backstay adjuster (my backstay doesn't have a turnbuckle) and with 
forestay turnbuckle "hard to turn" i.e. very little headsail sag. 

Here's what I've found so far racing my new-to-me 30-1 in my club's just-ended 
spring series (ten Wednesday nights). I raced in a non-spinnaker PRHF division 
sailing triangle courses. My main competition is a couple of Catalina 27s with 
folding props, rating 221, and much more experienced skippers and crews. I have 
a fixed prop and 198 rating and crew of total newbies. 

1. Despite propeller differences, I can meet or beat their boat speed on every 
point of sail under the right conditions: a) t he wind has to be up enough, say 
Beaufort 4, to overcome their displacement advantage of about a ton; and b) my 
sails have to be optimally trimmed. The 30-1 has better SA/D and D/L ratios 
than the Catalina 27, but it takes some wind to see those advantages, and it 
takes good sail trim against experienced competition. 

2. They can out-point me by maybe five degrees. I flew my 155% genoa all 
series, because my rating doesn't account for my 170, and I never had a windy 
enough night to drop back to the 135. I'll start pinching if I get closer than 
say 40 degrees to the wind with the 155. 

3. I'm getting beat on boat handling and tactics. Our maneuvers aren't sharp 
enough yet, and I need to have consistently good starts and stay in clean air 
more, and these skippers know the lake's wind patterns better than I do. 

4. My 30-1 is stiff as hell. One night after a race the wind piped up to 
Beaufort 6 and I hit 7.6 knots on beam/close reach, according to GPS, under 
full main and 155, and I *still* didn't get a rail in the water (very close 
though, within an inch or another degree of heel). Then my genoa tore :) She 
did want to round up under that much wind and sail, and I'd say weather helm 
requires attention and tuning by Beaufort 5. 

I decided to stay in the non-spinnaker fleet for the summer series. Just flew 
the spinnaker for the first time after the race this past Wednesday night, and 
my crew needs more practice with it. We had a pre-race crisis this week - main 
halyard jammed at masthead sheave - I was at the masthead in a bosun's chair 
unjamming it during my start sequence :) We managed to get the sails up just in 
time, but we were discombobulated and this will be our throw-out race for the 
summer series :) 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Steven Tattrie via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Steven Tattrie"  
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 7:13:00 AM 
Subject: Stus-List C&C 30 MK1 PHRF racing 

Hi, 

I have been PHRF racing at our local club, this is my first year with a C&C 30 
MK1 (1979) is there a thread or anyone have comments on getting the best out of 
the boat, eg tight rigging, rake, sail selection, strength or weaknesses 
specific to the 30 to stay competitive? I have been sailing for a couple 
decades so not looking for general sailing tips. I want to know what is best 
for the 30MK1 or hear from your experience what work best. 

I am pointing well, though wounder if I should pinch more or be more off the 
wind for speed? I seemed to be passed on reaching and running. 

FYI - we have about half a dozen 30 MK1 racing a couple redwings, a 32 and 35 
MK1 racing. All C&C. 

Steve 

___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated! 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List C&C 30 MK1 PHRF racing

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Hi Steve, 

Earlier this year I asked a number of questions about racing a 30-1, since I 
just bought one (hull #7) this year and started racing it. The good folks on 
this list were kind enough to share their wisdom with me. Here are links to the 
relevant threads in the email list archives: 

* http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2016-February/082562.html 
* http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2016-April/084180.html 
* http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2016-May/084680.html 
* http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2016-May/085167.html 
* http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2016-June/086296.html 
* http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2016-June/086391.html 

Incidentally you can search the archives via google by appending " 
site:cncphotoalbum.com" to your search string, e.g. "PHRF 
site:cncphotoalbum.com". But it's hard to come up with the right search terms 
sometimes, and google is not always up-to-date with the mail list archives. So 
you can manually browse them at 
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/, e.g. view by thread for 
each month and scan the list of threads. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C&C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Steven Tattrie via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Steven Tattrie"  
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 7:13:00 AM 
Subject: Stus-List C&C 30 MK1 PHRF racing 

Hi, 

I have been PHRF racing at our local club, this is my first year with a C&C 30 
MK1 (1979) is there a thread or anyone have comments on getting the best out of 
the boat, eg tight rigging, rake, sail selection, strength or weaknesses 
specific to the 30 to stay competitive? I have been sailing for a couple 
decades so not looking for general sailing tips. I want to know what is best 
for the 30MK1 or hear from your experience what work best. 

I am pointing well, though wounder if I should pinch more or be more off the 
wind for speed? I seemed to be passed on reaching and running. 

FYI - we have about half a dozen 30 MK1 racing a couple redwings, a 32 and 35 
MK1 racing. All C&C. 

Steve 

___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated! 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List C&C 30 MK1 PHRF racing

[David Platt via CnC-List]

C&C 30 mark 1's will do relatively better when it is blowing. Don't miss 
the heavy air nights.  I never thought mine did that well when I 
pinched.  Best way to tell for sure to is look at your VMG with a GPS.


Good Luck

david

On 2016-07-15 09:13 AM, Steven Tattrie via CnC-List wrote:

Hi,

I have been PHRF racing at our local club, this is my first year with 
a C&C 30 MK1 (1979) is there a thread or anyone have comments on 
getting the best out of the boat, eg tight rigging, rake, sail 
selection, strength or weaknesses specific to the 30 to stay 
competitive? I have been sailing for a couple decades so not looking 
for general sailing tips. I want to know what is best for the 30MK1 or 
hear from your experience what work best.


I am pointing well, though wounder if I should pinch more or be more 
off the wind for speed? I seemed to be passed on reaching and running.


FYI - we have about half a dozen 30 MK1 racing a couple redwings, a 32 
and 35 MK1 racing. All C&C.


Steve


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This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
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___

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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Wednesday Night racing - now scoring systems

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

I'm in a J30 one design fleet in Annapolis, but there are also PHRF classes
in Annapolis and West River.  Not sure of the details.

The Cruiser class has been switching to ORC for weekend races.  While I
suspect most C&Cs are in the database, a Hylas 44 was not.

Joel

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 1:29 PM, Eric Baumes via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> On the Hudson River, we use ToT at the club level and ToD for interclub
> regattas.
>
> The rationale for ToT at the club level is roughly:
>
> 1. The RC doesn't need to know the exact length of the course. While we
> race around fixed marks, the RC boat will move to give us the best
> approximate W/L course. This eliminates need to know the exact length of
> the course.
> 2. While we have 20+ boats split over 2 fleets (spin/non spin) the PHRF
> range is 57 - 261. ToT is said to give the slower boats a better chance.
>
> Not sure why we still use ToD at the interclub level.
>
> We use the default A/B values.
>
> Advantages for PHRF vs other systems is that it is cheap and easy to
> administer. While overall numbers for PHRF racing may be down, there is yet
> to really be another handicapping system that has taken hold and can work
> easily with local admin. A couple years ago there was a big push for IRC by
> making it cheaper and easier to apply for an un-endorsed cert, but IRC
> seems all but dead. I got an email from US Sailing the other day pushing
> ORC pushing ORC club. But it is fighting the installed base of local YRAs
> in the US that issue thousands of PHRF certificates each year.
>
> A PHRF application is really pretty easy to fill out for even a novice
> sailor vs the measurement requirements for other systems. Also the money
> and administration for an ORC certificate is going to US Sailing vs. your
> local YRA who more directly support racing in your area. Full disclosure I
> am a member of our local YRA board.
>
> Eric
> C&C 34/36
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 9:23 AM, Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes. We switched to PHRF TOT from our former ASPN (also TOT) system in
>> 2009.  Atlantic Speed Potential Number was in fact our Time Correction
>> factor in percent.  It was simpler for the racers than PHRF but made a lot
>> more work rating existing boats that came from other areas and already had
>> an established PHRF number.
>>
>>
>>
>> As some have said PHRF is not always fair.  But short of measuring every
>> single boat (ex ORR) and having different numbers for each wind and sea
>> state there is not really anything that is any better.  One Design is
>> fairer except I doubt everyone want the same thing from a boat so we all
>> but something different.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> Persistence
>>
>> Halifax
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Ken
>> Heaton via CnC-List
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2016 9:03 AM
>> *To:* cnc-list
>> *Cc:* Ken Heaton
>> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Wednesday Night racing - now scoring systems
>>
>>
>>
>> We use Time on Time PHRF here in Nova Scotia.  We have our handicaps set
>> by Sail Nova Scotia and use A=695 and B=525
>>
>>
>>
>> Ken Heaton & Anne Tobin
>> S/V Salazar - Can 54955
>> C&C 37/40 XL - Hull # 67
>> Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.racethecape.ca/the-race/entrants/salazar/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 14 July 2016 at 16:29, Pete Shelquist via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>> All –
>>
>> For your local races, how many use PHRF vs ORC or other?  TOT vs TOD?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
>> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
>> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
>> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
>> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>>
>>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Wednesday Night racing - now scoring systems

[Eric Baumes via CnC-List]

On the Hudson River, we use ToT at the club level and ToD for interclub
regattas.

The rationale for ToT at the club level is roughly:

1. The RC doesn't need to know the exact length of the course. While we
race around fixed marks, the RC boat will move to give us the best
approximate W/L course. This eliminates need to know the exact length of
the course.
2. While we have 20+ boats split over 2 fleets (spin/non spin) the PHRF
range is 57 - 261. ToT is said to give the slower boats a better chance.

Not sure why we still use ToD at the interclub level.

We use the default A/B values.

Advantages for PHRF vs other systems is that it is cheap and easy to
administer. While overall numbers for PHRF racing may be down, there is yet
to really be another handicapping system that has taken hold and can work
easily with local admin. A couple years ago there was a big push for IRC by
making it cheaper and easier to apply for an un-endorsed cert, but IRC
seems all but dead. I got an email from US Sailing the other day pushing
ORC pushing ORC club. But it is fighting the installed base of local YRAs
in the US that issue thousands of PHRF certificates each year.

A PHRF application is really pretty easy to fill out for even a novice
sailor vs the measurement requirements for other systems. Also the money
and administration for an ORC certificate is going to US Sailing vs. your
local YRA who more directly support racing in your area. Full disclosure I
am a member of our local YRA board.

Eric
C&C 34/36


On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 9:23 AM, Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Yes. We switched to PHRF TOT from our former ASPN (also TOT) system in
> 2009.  Atlantic Speed Potential Number was in fact our Time Correction
> factor in percent.  It was simpler for the racers than PHRF but made a lot
> more work rating existing boats that came from other areas and already had
> an established PHRF number.
>
>
>
> As some have said PHRF is not always fair.  But short of measuring every
> single boat (ex ORR) and having different numbers for each wind and sea
> state there is not really anything that is any better.  One Design is
> fairer except I doubt everyone want the same thing from a boat so we all
> but something different.
>
>
>
> Mike
>
> Persistence
>
> Halifax
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Ken
> Heaton via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2016 9:03 AM
> *To:* cnc-list
> *Cc:* Ken Heaton
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Wednesday Night racing - now scoring systems
>
>
>
> We use Time on Time PHRF here in Nova Scotia.  We have our handicaps set
> by Sail Nova Scotia and use A=695 and B=525
>
>
>
> Ken Heaton & Anne Tobin
> S/V Salazar - Can 54955
> C&C 37/40 XL - Hull # 67
> Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia
>
>
>
> http://www.racethecape.ca/the-race/entrants/salazar/
>
>
>
>
>
> On 14 July 2016 at 16:29, Pete Shelquist via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> All –
>
> For your local races, how many use PHRF vs ORC or other?  TOT vs TOD?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List C&C 115 Racing Question

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

We raced a 115 against a J109 for several years.  We were rated 63 and the 109 
rated 66.  Usually we were ahead of the 109.  63 was a fair rating

The 115 goes upwind really well.  It especially loves weight on the rail.  The 
gear is in some cases a bit undersized.  Main can be a bit tricky as the sheet 
is 2:1 and runs to winches on the coaming.  Downwind to upwind adjustment has a 
lot of sheet to bring in quickly and is sometimes a two person job.  When very 
windy with lots of crew we would often have one person on traveler and a second 
on sheet.  All trim controls for main other than traveler requires cabintop 
winch use.  Outhaul, vang, Cunningham, etc ... backstay is hydraulic and 
located on the front side of binnacle.  With #1 outhaulers are necessary to get 
optimal sail trim.

The 115 is a great boat.  Koobalibra just left Halifax on Monday and will now 
be located in California.  We miss that boat!

Mike
Main Trimmer (former)
Koobalibra
C&C 115 #59


From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Jim Peterson 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 11:48 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Jim Peterson
Subject: Stus-List C&C 115 Racing Question

Hi everyone, I'm a new poster.  I've been lurking for about 6 months and really 
appreciate the group's comradery and support of each other.  I do not own a 
sailboat yet, although I've been lusting after the C&C 115 for the last 8 
years.  It seems to have the perfect blend of racing bones and cruising comfort 
for deployment in Northern Michigan, principally on Lake Michigan.

The one question I have is with the 115's PHRF rating.  While its national 
ratings vary from 51 to 85, on Lake Michigan, 66 looks like its rating.  I just 
wondered from those that have raced the 115, does that rating seem fair?  Just 
comparing it to other possibilities is the J/109 which rates at 69.  Does the 
115 really beat the J/109 on unadjusted time?  How do 115 racers feel about 
their PHRF rating?

Jim Peterson
Currently living in Wellesley, MA and racing on OPB's off Marblehead, MA
Anxious to move to Harbor Springs, MI in the next few years
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Stus-List C&C 115 Racing Question

[Jim Peterson via CnC-List]

Hi everyone, I'm a new poster.  I've been lurking for about 6 months and
really appreciate the group's comradery and support of each other.  I do not
own a sailboat yet, although I've been lusting after the C&C 115 for the
last 8 years.  It seems to have the perfect blend of racing bones and
cruising comfort for deployment in Northern Michigan, principally on Lake
Michigan.

 

The one question I have is with the 115's PHRF rating.  While its national
ratings vary from 51 to 85, on Lake Michigan, 66 looks like its rating.  I
just wondered from those that have raced the 115, does that rating seem
fair?  Just comparing it to other possibilities is the J/109 which rates at
69.  Does the 115 really beat the J/109 on unadjusted time?  How do 115
racers feel about their PHRF rating?

 

Jim Peterson

Currently living in Wellesley, MA and racing on OPB's off Marblehead, MA

Anxious to move to Harbor Springs, MI in the next few years

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Wednesday Night racing

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Hi Bill, 

I have not met a Mark DeDenisio in Colorado sailing circles or elsewhere. It 
looks like he's on the board of Dillon Yacht Club: 
http://www.dillonyachtclub.com/directors.html Dillon races on weekends, so we 
have some Dillon people crewing in our Wednesday night races at Chatfield ( 
http://www.csyc.org ). Maybe Mark does that at Cherry Creek ( 
http://www.denversailing.org ). 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Bill Coleman via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Bill Coleman"  
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 6:15:38 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Wednesday Night racing 



Randy, 

I have a childhood friend who has been in the Denver area for some time. He 
sails, but he might out of Dillon, even tho he is in Southern Denver. 

Mark DeDenisio, do you know of him? He just bought a Freedom 30 which he has in 
Oriental, NC which he may retire to in a few years. 




Bill Coleman 

C&C 39 Erie, PA 





From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of RANDY via 
CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 10:42 PM 
To: Edd Schillay 
Cc: RANDY; cnc-list 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Wednesday Night racing 





Hi Edd, 





Yes, we're lake sailors here in Colorado :) Have a look at my photo album at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTY0VBM2hlT0hveDQ and you can see 
the lake I sail on. But we get to the Caribbean, Gulf, and Pacific whenever we 
can :) 





There's actually quite a healthy sailing scene here, with racing yacht clubs at 
Chatfield, Cherry Creek, and Dillon Reservoirs, and at Carter Lake. The racing 
at Dillon in particular is very competitive (and the mountain winds pretty 
violent). The scene may be vibrant here precisely because there are so few 
suitable bodies of water for keelboats, serving a pretty large urban corridor 
and population base. 





All that said, I just finished an analysis of participation in my club's 
keelboat series by year since 2012. We had 37 boats in 2012, and have 
alternated between 31 and 25 ever since. So yeah, a 33% decline in five years. 
Causes include people getting old, people moving, people too busy with other 
things, and probably people not wanting to spend the money any more. We've had 
good luck finding people to crew by starting a meetup group. Of course we get a 
variety of experience levels, but it's been a good way to find new people 
interested in sailing around here. 





Cheers, 


Randy 



- Original Message -



From: "Edd Schillay"  
To: "RANDY"  
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 10:33:08 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Wednesday Night racing 





Randy, 





By “everywhere”, I meant everywhere on Western LI Sound. I don’t know what 
things are like in Colorado. Heck, I didn’t even know you could sail in 
Colorado. Ski, yes. Sail? Wow. Looks pretty land-locked on my map. 





In my area, you can see the decline on sites like yachtscoring.com . But 
there’s been a lot I can see with my own eyes, along with the chatter around 
the clubs/boards. I think they can yelled Block Island Race Week this year 
because of too few entries. 





It’s a shame, but I get it. Times are tough and racing (moreso than just 
cruising) gets expensive. People are also working more and spending more time 
with their spouses and kids — getting crew to consistently participate is a 
challenge too. 



All the best, 





Edd 








Edd M. Schillay 


Starship Enterprise 


C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B 


City Island, NY 


Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 






















On Jul 13, 2016, at 11:58 AM, RANDY < randy.staff...@comcast.net > wrote: 





"Racing numbers are down everywhere". Edd where can I find published data on 
that? 





I'm doing that analysis right now for my club, using published race results 
dating back to (only) 2012 to study the number of boats racing each year. I 
haven't finished the analysis yet, but I can already tell we're down at least 
20% from 2012. We seem to be holding at about 28 boats across six fleets for 
the last two years. We gain a boat or two each year, but we lose a boat or two 
each year. 





Cheers, 


Randy Stafford 


S/V Grenadine 


C&C 30-1 #7 


Ken Caryl, CO 



- Original Message -



From: "Edd Schillay via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
To: "cnc-list" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Cc: "Edd Schillay" < e...@schillay.com > 
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 8:18:01 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Wednesday Night racing 





Great article, Don. Thanks for sharing. 





The trend is a little more bleak in Western LI Sound. Racing numbers are down 
everywhere. Years ago, our Wednesday Night series had around 125 boats with 9 
divisions. Now we are around 30 and 4 divisions. 





One of the four clubs on City Island just closed its doors for good. Sad to see 
the decline. 



All the best, 





Edd 








Edd M. Schillay 


Starship Enterprise 


C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B 


City Island, NY 


Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 

Re: Stus-List Wednesday Night racing - now scoring systems

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

Yes. We switched to PHRF TOT from our former ASPN (also TOT) system in 2009.  
Atlantic Speed Potential Number was in fact our Time Correction factor in 
percent.  It was simpler for the racers than PHRF but made a lot more work 
rating existing boats that came from other areas and already had an established 
PHRF number.

As some have said PHRF is not always fair.  But short of measuring every single 
boat (ex ORR) and having different numbers for each wind and sea state there is 
not really anything that is any better.  One Design is fairer except I doubt 
everyone want the same thing from a boat so we all but something different.

Mike
Persistence
Halifax

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Ken Heaton 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 9:03 AM
To: cnc-list
Cc: Ken Heaton
Subject: Re: Stus-List Wednesday Night racing - now scoring systems

We use Time on Time PHRF here in Nova Scotia.  We have our handicaps set by 
Sail Nova Scotia and use A=695 and B=525

Ken Heaton & Anne Tobin
S/V Salazar - Can 54955
C&C 37/40 XL - Hull # 67
Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia

http://www.racethecape.ca/the-race/entrants/salazar/


On 14 July 2016 at 16:29, Pete Shelquist via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
All –
For your local races, how many use PHRF vs ORC or other?  TOT vs TOD?

Thanks,



___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Stus-List C&C 30 MK1 PHRF racing

[Steven Tattrie via CnC-List]

Hi,

I have been PHRF racing at our local club, this is my first year with a C&C
30 MK1 (1979) is there a thread or anyone have comments on getting the best
out of the boat, eg tight rigging, rake, sail selection, strength or
weaknesses specific to the 30 to stay competitive? I have been sailing for
a couple decades so not looking for general sailing tips. I want to know
what is best for the 30MK1 or hear from your experience what work best.

I am pointing well, though wounder if I should pinch more or be more off
the wind for speed? I seemed to be passed on reaching and running.

FYI - we have about half a dozen 30 MK1 racing a couple redwings, a 32 and
35 MK1 racing. All C&C.

Steve
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Wednesday Night racing

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

Randy, 

I have a childhood friend who has been in the Denver area for some time. He 
sails, but he might out of Dillon, even tho he is in Southern Denver.

Mark DeDenisio, do you know of him? He just bought a Freedom 30 which he has in 
Oriental, NC which he may retire to in a few years.

 

Bill Coleman

C&C 39 Erie, PA

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of RANDY via 
CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 10:42 PM
To: Edd Schillay
Cc: RANDY; cnc-list
Subject: Re: Stus-List Wednesday Night racing

 

Hi Edd,

 

Yes, we're lake sailors here in Colorado :)  Have a look at my photo album at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTY0VBM2hlT0hveDQ and you can see 
the lake I sail on.  But we get to the Caribbean, Gulf, and Pacific whenever we 
can :)

 

There's actually quite a healthy sailing scene here, with racing yacht clubs at 
Chatfield, Cherry Creek, and Dillon Reservoirs, and at Carter Lake.  The racing 
at Dillon in particular is very competitive (and the mountain winds pretty 
violent).  The scene may be vibrant here precisely because there are so few 
suitable bodies of water for keelboats, serving a pretty large urban corridor 
and population base.

 

All that said, I just finished an analysis of participation in my club's 
keelboat series by year since 2012.  We had 37 boats in 2012, and have 
alternated between 31 and 25 ever since.  So yeah, a 33% decline in five years. 
 Causes include people getting old, people moving, people too busy with other 
things, and probably people not wanting to spend the money any more.  We've had 
good luck finding people to crew by starting a meetup group.  Of course we get 
a variety of experience levels, but it's been a good way to find new people 
interested in sailing around here.

 

Cheers,

Randy

 

  _  

From: "Edd Schillay" 
To: "RANDY" 
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 10:33:08 AM
Subject: Re: Stus-List Wednesday Night racing

 

Randy,

 

By “everywhere”, I meant everywhere on Western LI Sound. I don’t know what 
things are like in Colorado. Heck, I didn’t even know you could sail in 
Colorado. Ski, yes. Sail? Wow. Looks pretty land-locked on my map. 

 

In my area, you can see the decline on sites like yachtscoring.com. But there’s 
been a lot I can see with my own eyes, along with the chatter around the 
clubs/boards. I think they can yelled Block Island Race Week this year because 
of too few entries. 

 

It’s a shame, but I get it. Times are tough and racing (moreso than just 
cruising) gets expensive. People are also working more and spending more time 
with their spouses and kids — getting crew to consistently participate is a 
challenge too. 


All the best,

 

Edd

 

 

Edd M. Schillay

Starship Enterprise

C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B

City Island, NY 

Starship   Enterprise's Captain's Log

 

 

 






 

On Jul 13, 2016, at 11:58 AM, RANDY  wrote:

 

"Racing numbers are down everywhere".  Edd where can I find published data on 
that?

 

I'm doing that analysis right now for my club, using published race results 
dating back to (only) 2012 to study the number of boats racing each year.  I 
haven't finished the analysis yet, but I can already tell we're down at least 
20% from 2012.  We seem to be holding at about 28 boats across six fleets for 
the last two years.  We gain a boat or two each year, but we lose a boat or two 
each year.

 

Cheers,

Randy Stafford

S/V Grenadine

C&C 30-1 #7

Ken Caryl, CO

 


  _  


From: "Edd Schillay via CnC-List" 
To: "cnc-list" 
Cc: "Edd Schillay" 
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 8:18:01 AM
Subject: Re: Stus-List Wednesday Night racing

 

Great article, Don. Thanks for sharing. 

 

The trend is a little more bleak in Western LI Sound. Racing numbers are down 
everywhere. Years ago, our Wednesday Night series had around 125 boats with 9 
divisions. Now we are around 30 and 4 divisions. 

 

One of the four clubs on City Island just closed its doors for good. Sad to see 
the decline. 


All the best,

 

Edd

 

 

Edd M. Schillay

Starship Enterprise

C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B

City Island, NY 

Starship   Enterprise's Captain's Log

 






 

On Jul 12, 2016, at 8:53 PM, Don Harben via CnC-List  
wrote:

 


 

 
http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2016/07/12/summer-tradition-still-going-strong/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Scuttlebutt%204623%20-%20July%2013%202016&utm_content=Scuttlebutt%204623%20-%20July%2013%202016+CID_9b7e47dad615547db1dfe51d875d17cd&utm_source=Email%20Newsletter&utm_term=Summer%20Tradition%20Still%20Going%20Strong



Don





Do

Re: Stus-List Wednesday Night racing - now scoring systems

[Ken Heaton via CnC-List]

We use Time on Time PHRF here in Nova Scotia.  We have our handicaps set by
Sail Nova Scotia and use A=695 and B=525

Ken Heaton & Anne Tobin
S/V Salazar - Can 54955
C&C 37/40 XL - Hull # 67
Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia

http://www.racethecape.ca/the-race/entrants/salazar/


On 14 July 2016 at 16:29, Pete Shelquist via CnC-List  wrote:

> All –
>
> For your local races, how many use PHRF vs ORC or other?  TOT vs TOD?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!