Re: Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and surveyors)

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Thanks Dave. My boat has a non-hydraulic backstay adjuster, and has a "dimple" 
in the topsides in the area of the port chainplate. I did have it 
professionally surveyed, and the surveyor didn't mention it or didn't notice 
it. I also inspected the boat carefully myself after buying it, following the 
procedures in Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" (including standing 
astern and ahead looking at the verticality of the keel and rudder through a 
grid drawn on a clear sheet of plastic). 

Anyway the "dimple" is an oval-shaped flat spot in the curvature of the hull, 
about 9" high by 6" wide, on the port side only, in the vicinity of the 
chainplate, centered some 12" above the waterline. You can see it pretty well 
in this picture: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTQzlqNkNhR1djSmc 
. It's the dark disruption in the reflections off the topsides. 

I'd welcome any opinions on what this may be. I have no indication that part of 
the hull, or the chainplate knee, is anything but completely solid and 
immobile. Nor do I have any indication this blemish has any effect on the 
sailing characteristics of the boat. Thanks in advance. 

Best Regards, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Dave"  
To: "RANDY"  
Cc: "cnc-list"  
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 4:18:31 PM 
Subject: Re: Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Stus-List Brokers and 
surveyors) 

First sighted when I was looking at a c corvette. This boat had older Dark 
blue awlgrip and had been upgraded (including hydraulic backstab adjuster) and 
was due again for a general refit 
When sighting down the top sides I detected some deep waviness (like 3/16 to 
1/4" distortion) in the top sides right by the chain plates, and when I looked 
closely i could see hard spots where the chain plate knees attached to the 
hull. This had occurred after the paint, and of course the dark paint made it 
easier to spot. 
So, I started looking for this in other boats, and was quite surprised to see 
how often this kind of distortion occurs especially in early '70s boats 
retrofitted with hydraulic adjusters. I have never seen it mentioned in a 
survey. 
Anyway, don't believe me, stand astern and sight along the top sides of boats 
at your marina. 
While you are at it, compare the verticality of the rudder vs the keel. ;-) 
Dave. 

Sent from my iPhone 

On Nov 27, 2016, at 9:38 AM, RANDY < randy.staff...@comcast.net > wrote: 




Dave I was intrigued by your mention below of "buckled topsides at the 
chainplates". What did that look like when you saw it? 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Dave S via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
To: "C Stus List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Cc: "Dave S" < syerd...@gmail.com > 
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 6:27:48 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Brokers and surveyors 

To add to Chuck's thoughts: 






... 

Surveyors/surveys are highly variable, and will not be as thorough or effective 
as you would like. I have read surveys while looking at boats that missed 
obvious problems, bent rudder shaft, (2 C 34s) buckled topsides at the 
chainplates...(several older boats with hydraulic backstay adjusters fitted) 
Specific known issues should be researched by the buyer and specifically 
referenced to the surveyor and broker - again, in writing. Forums and lists 
like this are fantastic sources of info, and the list members know more than 
surveyors, generally. (Examples would be banging kanazaki transmissions, worn 
folding props, rod/wire rigging, keel stub/mast step issues on 33-2, 35-3, 41, 
cracking keels in frozen parts of the world... - no doubt there are many many 
others) It is rare indeed that a surveyor will be that knowledgable or thorough 
with regard to a particular model. (unless he owned one, as in Chuck's case) If 
I were remote- buying a boat that was worth any sort of money I would make a 
point of inspecting it with the surveyor. 

... 







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Re: Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and surveyors)

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Dave,

The list refers to this as "dimples".  In particular there was a discussion
years ago regarding early 32's.  You can try to search the archives for
it.  Conventional wisdom is it is more cosmetic than structural.

Bottom line is it is not uncommon in older C's.  In my opinion, it has
little to do with whether the boat has a backstay or not.

My 35_1 had slight topside dimpling at the upper shroud braces.  Also
visible was the pattern of the roving from post cure shrinkage.  All the
blemishes disappeared after sanding and applying high build primer prior to
painting.  The topsides now are perfectly with smooth.

Dennis C.
Touché 35_1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Nov 27, 2016 5:19 PM, "Dave via CnC-List"  wrote:

First sighted when I was looking at a c corvette.  This boat had older
Dark blue awlgrip and had been upgraded (including hydraulic backstab
adjuster) and was due again for a general refit
When sighting down the top sides I detected some deep waviness (like 3/16
to 1/4" distortion)  in the top sides right by the chain plates, and when I
looked closely i could see hard spots where the chain plate knees attached
to the hull.  This had occurred after the paint, and of course the dark
paint made it easier to spot.
So, I started looking for this in other boats, and was quite surprised to
see how often this kind of distortion occurs especially in early '70s boats
retrofitted with hydraulic adjusters.   I have never seen it mentioned in a
survey.
Anyway, don't believe me, stand astern and sight along the top sides of
boats at your marina.
While you are at it, compare the verticality of the rudder vs the keel.
;-)
Dave.

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 27, 2016, at 9:38 AM, RANDY  wrote:

Dave I was intrigued by your mention below of "buckled topsides at the
chainplates".  What did that look like when you saw it?

Cheers,
Randy

--
*From: *"Dave S via CnC-List" 
*To: *"C Stus List" 
*Cc: *"Dave S" 
*Sent: *Sunday, November 27, 2016 6:27:48 AM
*Subject: *Re: Stus-List Brokers and surveyors

To add to Chuck's thoughts:

...

Surveyors/surveys  are highly variable, and will not be as thorough or
effective as you would like.  I have read surveys while looking at boats
that missed obvious problems, bent rudder shaft, (2 C 34s)  buckled
topsides at the chainplates...(several older boats with hydraulic backstay
adjusters fitted)   Specific known issues should be researched by the buyer
and specifically referenced to the surveyor and broker - again,  in
writing.  Forums and lists like this are fantastic sources of info, and the
list members know more than surveyors, generally.  (Examples would be
 banging kanazaki transmissions, worn folding props, rod/wire rigging, keel
stub/mast step issues on 33-2, 35-3, 41, cracking keels in frozen parts of
the world... - no doubt there are many many others)  It is rare indeed that
 a surveyor will be that knowledgable or thorough with regard to a
particular model.  (unless he owned one, as in Chuck's case)  If I were
remote- buying a boat that was worth any sort of money I would make a point
of inspecting it with the surveyor.

...


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wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List List discussions on list

[Russ & Melody via CnC-List]

Sounds good to me, but sorry to say... not this year.

http://www.greaterfool.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/WORRIES.png?x64811

Cheers, Russ
Sweet   35 mk-1


At 08:53 AM 26/11/2016, you wrote:
Yup – I am Canadian based except Dec to April 
when I will be eenjoying the Florida 
sunshine.  The web hosting company is in the USA.


If anyone gets or is near to Umatilla, FL, drop 
me a note and we’ll try to get together for a rum & coke.


Stu
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Re: Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and surveyors)

[Dave via CnC-List]

First sighted when I was looking at a c corvette.  This boat had older Dark 
blue awlgrip and had been upgraded (including hydraulic backstab adjuster) and 
was due again for a general refit
When sighting down the top sides I detected some deep waviness (like 3/16 to 
1/4" distortion)  in the top sides right by the chain plates, and when I looked 
closely i could see hard spots where the chain plate knees attached to the 
hull.  This had occurred after the paint, and of course the dark paint made it 
easier to spot.
So, I started looking for this in other boats, and was quite surprised to see 
how often this kind of distortion occurs especially in early '70s boats 
retrofitted with hydraulic adjusters.   I have never seen it mentioned in a 
survey.  
Anyway, don't believe me, stand astern and sight along the top sides of boats 
at your marina.  
While you are at it, compare the verticality of the rudder vs the keel.   ;-)
Dave.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 27, 2016, at 9:38 AM, RANDY  wrote:
> 
> Dave I was intrigued by your mention below of "buckled topsides at the 
> chainplates".  What did that look like when you saw it?
> 
> Cheers,
> Randy
> 
> From: "Dave S via CnC-List" 
> To: "C Stus List" 
> Cc: "Dave S" 
> Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 6:27:48 AM
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Brokers and surveyors
> 
> To add to Chuck's thoughts:
> 
> ...
> 
> Surveyors/surveys  are highly variable, and will not be as thorough or 
> effective as you would like.  I have read surveys while looking at boats that 
> missed obvious problems, bent rudder shaft, (2 C 34s)  buckled topsides at 
> the chainplates...(several older boats with hydraulic backstay adjusters 
> fitted)   Specific known issues should be researched by the buyer and 
> specifically referenced to the surveyor and broker - again,  in writing.  
> Forums and lists like this are fantastic sources of info, and the list 
> members know more than surveyors, generally.  (Examples would be  banging 
> kanazaki transmissions, worn folding props, rod/wire rigging, keel stub/mast 
> step issues on 33-2, 35-3, 41, cracking keels in frozen parts of the world... 
> - no doubt there are many many others)  It is rare indeed that  a surveyor 
> will be that knowledgable or thorough with regard to a particular model.  
> (unless he owned one, as in Chuck's case)  If I were remote- buying a boat 
> that was worth any sort of money I would make a point of inspecting it with 
> the surveyor.
> 
> ...
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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

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Re: Stus-List man overboard pole refurb?

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

You might have to call Defender. It is not obvious to me what activates it. My 
light is stored upside-down and turns on rightside-up.

 

Joe Della Barba

j...@dellabarba.com

 

 

On Nov 26, 2016 5:24 PM, "Dave S via CnC-List"  > wrote:

Thanks Jake.I agree that the light would be an important addition but I 
think maybe it should be attached near the buoy, not the pole.  This way the 
swimmer would be attracted to the flotation.  

I shudder to to think about finding somebody in the dark, even on a decent 
night,  I often sail shorthanded with very novice crew or my kids.  Lake 
Ontario can have a steep ugly and confused chop, and can be quite rough at 
times.

Had an interesting chat with Carolyn Burgess at the Rigging Shoppe (in Toronto) 
on this today. Years ago, her parents ended up in Lake Ontario one night when 
their C sank beneath them.  They were tethered to a MOB pole and had both a 
ring buoy (mandatory in Canada) and horseshoe buoy (ditto USA)   She had photos 
taken from the search plane and showed how the humans were not easily seen 
amongst the whitecaps, but the pole was.   

She also said that the horseshoe buoy was the lifesaver, because her mom was 
able to "wear" it but the ring did not work well for her dad, who was too big.  
She advised that I was too big for the ring... :-(

She too thought the strobe was a very good idea but struggled to come up with 
an appropriately compact solution, that would be activated by inversion or 
immersion (but not rain or spray)

I found this online, - LED, compact, SOLAS approved, and reasonably priced - 
but it is unclear to me how the light could be turned on.

 

http://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1|135|2290109|2290110 

 =1282889

 

Anyone know?

 

Dave

 

 



-- Forwarded message --
From: Jake Brodersen  >
To:  >
Cc: 
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 10:21:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Stus-List man overboard pole refurb?

Dave,

 

Those all sound like worthy upgrades to an existing pole.  It should look like 
new when you’re done.  A small water-activated strobe is a good choice.  If you 
could attach it part way up the pole, it would be great for visibility.  If 
it’s too heavy, it may affect the ability of the pole to stay vertical.  It all 
depends on the type of strobe (weight).  The carabiner should have the whistle 
attached with a short leash.  A small float might make them easier to find in 
the water.  I’m thinking a key chain float might work.

 

Jake

 

Jake Brodersen

C 35 Mk-III “Midnight Mistress”

Hampton VA

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com 
 ] On Behalf Of Dave S via CnC-List
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2016 08:52
To: C Stus List  >
Cc: Dave S  >
Subject: Stus-List man overboard pole refurb?

 

Working through some refurb chores and am rehabilitating my Scotty MOB pole, 
fresh paint, new flag, replace or paint some of the UV damaged plastic on the 
float, add reflective tape.  It lives in a tube mounted on the pushpit 
stanchion and is connected to a smallish ring buoy by around 75' of floating 
line.   Am contemplating a strobe and whistle an possibly a carabiner so a 
tired swimmer can more easily tether to the entire assembly.   Any thoughts on 
this?  

 

Thanks, Dave   33-2

 

 

 

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https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

 

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and surveyors)

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Dave I was intrigued by your mention below of "buckled topsides at the 
chainplates". What did that look like when you saw it? 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Dave S via CnC-List"  
To: "C Stus List"  
Cc: "Dave S"  
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 6:27:48 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Brokers and surveyors 

To add to Chuck's thoughts: 






... 

Surveyors/surveys are highly variable, and will not be as thorough or effective 
as you would like. I have read surveys while looking at boats that missed 
obvious problems, bent rudder shaft, (2 C 34s) buckled topsides at the 
chainplates...(several older boats with hydraulic backstay adjusters fitted) 
Specific known issues should be researched by the buyer and specifically 
referenced to the surveyor and broker - again, in writing. Forums and lists 
like this are fantastic sources of info, and the list members know more than 
surveyors, generally. (Examples would be banging kanazaki transmissions, worn 
folding props, rod/wire rigging, keel stub/mast step issues on 33-2, 35-3, 41, 
cracking keels in frozen parts of the world... - no doubt there are many many 
others) It is rare indeed that a surveyor will be that knowledgable or thorough 
with regard to a particular model. (unless he owned one, as in Chuck's case) If 
I were remote- buying a boat that was worth any sort of money I would make a 
point of inspecting it with the surveyor. 

... 



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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Brokers and surveyors

[Dave S via CnC-List]

To add to Chuck's thoughts:

A buyer's agent (or even a helpful broker) will be able to provide you with
information on asking and actual selling prices for broker-sold boats for
the model you are after.  This is a huge help as there can be a large range
as we know (in 2013, it was around 30% for the models I was looking at)
As mentioned, many of the boats owned by those on this list are now out of
the broker market - too cheap - nonetheless, the broker can still make this
info available to you.


Even with a very high level of trust, every expectation you can dream of
should be stated in writing, to both the broker and the surveyor. (or the
seller if applicable) Good fences make good neighbours, and this is not an
imposition, it protects everyone and maintains friendships.  For most
items, clear, friendly, communication in an email trail is fine.


Surveyors/surveys  are highly variable, and will not be as thorough or
effective as you would like.  I have read surveys while looking at boats
that missed obvious problems, bent rudder shaft, (2 C 34s)  buckled
topsides at the chainplates...(several older boats with hydraulic backstay
adjusters fitted)   Specific known issues should be researched by the buyer
and specifically referenced to the surveyor and broker - again,  in
writing.  Forums and lists like this are fantastic sources of info, and the
list members know more than surveyors, generally.  (Examples would be
 banging kanazaki transmissions, worn folding props, rod/wire rigging, keel
stub/mast step issues on 33-2, 35-3, 41, cracking keels in frozen parts of
the world... - no doubt there are many many others)  It is rare indeed that
 a surveyor will be that knowledgable or thorough with regard to a
particular model.  (unless he owned one, as in Chuck's case)  If I were
remote- buying a boat that was worth any sort of money I would make a point
of inspecting it with the surveyor.


You can often get a survey from the seller.  If available, it makes nice
light reading while you wait for your own.  ;-)


Already mentioned - check the paperwork for the FOB point.   This is where
you take title.  Figure out what constitutes your acceptance of the boat's
condition, document all.


Already mentioned - hold back.


Chuck makes an interesting point - wariness about a price drop.   For
someone who is handy, this might actually represent an opportunity.   yards
are expensive to operate and charge a lot of money, (for anything) and any
sailboat can be hard to sell.Depends on the seller's frame of mind, the
issue and the labour involved.  (I rebuilt windstar's keel stub/maststep as
much as a preventative measure as anything, and would not hesitate to buy a
33-2, 35iii, or 41 with an issue identified, provided the price had been
adjusted by the C$20-30k a yard would ask for the same work.)


I think the "pipe dream" when buying is the overly optimistic assessment of
 things like canvas, sails, upholstery/foam, prop, running rigging, galley
stove, "secondary" systems and  wear-out items that are normally not
carefully inspected and can quickly add up to tens of thousands.   (good
bones are not the whole story)  A surveyor can't really help much with that.


Coffee's done...


Dave - 33-2 windstar


On Nov 23, 2016, at 12:59, Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:


Buying a boat from a broker without a buyer’s agent is the same as buying a
house with no realtor representing you.   And doing so from long distance,
stacks the deck even further against you.  The seller’s agent is looking
out for the seller and themselves.  Period.

>>  snip


To the topic of knowledgeable brokers and surveyors, I think that most
brokers tend to follow the money trail and focus their energy and expertise
on what will yield the greatest return for them and their company.  Many
yacht brokers are passing up listings of 30-40 year old sailboats because
demand is low, the potential buyers are cheapskates (yes, that includes
us!) and the time and money it takes to list an old “fixer upper” may
result in the broker being upside down in recovering their costs.  If they
take on an older boat, they’d prefer to list the 40 year old Hinckley or
Morris Yacht that still sells for over $100K, which means their commission
actually amounts to some return for the effort.  This is why you see more
and more cheap boats being represented by “discount” online brokers like
POP Yachts, where the virtual brokerage is located in Florida and their
“regional” sales agent collects  photos from the owner and shows the boat
to clients.  This person may have 50-100 boats listed and may never have
first-hand knowledge of any of them.  From experience, the regional guy is
not usually a sailor and he may have inherited the listing from a prior
broker who may no longer be with the company.



When I purchased Half Magic last winter, I was fortunate that my surveyor,
Mike Collier from Marine Safety in Fairhaven, MA, is also a C Landfall 38
owner