Re: Stus-List Sail Flaking

[Chuck S via CnC-List]

Hi Dennis,

I read your suggestion about "pocketing the main".  30 to 40% from the 
gooseneck positions me on the cabintop.   And we are not flaking, but making a 
burrito that we stuff and roll up onto the boom and tie with a single sail tie? 
 Is that right?


Chuck
Resolute
1990 C 34R
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md

> On December 3, 2016 at 10:17 PM "Dennis C. via CnC-List" 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 9:30 PM, Jim Eagon via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> > > I've been reading this subject for a few days now, and 
> it's interesting that it doesn't look like anybody has mentioned the Dutchman 
> Flaking System. I really like mine and it works very well for flaking my sail 
> when single-handing.
> > 
> > > 
> 
> Nobody has mentioned "pocketing" the main either.  However, pocketing is 
> a LOT easier with a second person or an autopilot.  It is NOT nearly the 
> equivalent of a Dutchman, Lazy Jack or stack system.
> 
> Pocketing is simply rolling the main in on itself.  First, the boom is 
> sheeted to center line and the sail is dropped.  A crew or the single hander 
> stands on one side of the boom about 35-40% of the way back from the 
> gooseneck, reaches across the boom, grabs a handful of sail and rolls it 
> inward towards himself.  Repeat until the sail is in a moderately tight roll 
> and then secure it with a sail tie.  The sail is secured and can be flaked 
> neatly later at the dock or anchorage.
> 
> I've used this technique dozens of times with success.
> 
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
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Re: Stus-List Sail Flaking

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 9:30 PM, Jim Eagon via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

>
> I've been reading this subject for a few days now, and it's interesting
> that it doesn't look like anybody has mentioned the Dutchman Flaking
> System. I really like mine and it works very well for flaking my sail when
> single-handing.



Nobody has mentioned "pocketing" the main either.  However, pocketing is a
LOT easier with a second person or an autopilot.  It is NOT nearly the
equivalent of a Dutchman, Lazy Jack or stack system.

Pocketing is simply rolling the main in on itself.  First, the boom is
sheeted to center line and the sail is dropped.  A crew or the single
hander stands on one side of the boom about 35-40% of the way back from the
gooseneck, reaches across the boom, grabs a handful of sail and rolls it
inward towards himself.  Repeat until the sail is in a moderately tight
roll and then secure it with a sail tie.  The sail is secured and can be
flaked neatly later at the dock or anchorage.

I've used this technique dozens of times with success.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA
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Re: Stus-List Short handed sailing; sail selection - now lazy jacks

[Daniel Sheer via CnC-List]

Two years ago I had Chesapeake Sailmakers make a stack pack for Pegathy. The 
actual admiral (Pegathy's her college nickname) is less than 5'. That's all 
she'll admit to. So it's difficult for her to help flake a main that's sliding 
all over the cabin top, much less help put on the sailcover. And it's not a one 
person job on a 38' boat. Except now it is, with the stack pack. The sails 
raises on slides in the mast, and even if there's no one at the mast 
encouraging the sail to flake properly (a one man job), the sail flakes pretty 
well anyway, as long as the boat's dead into the wind. It's wonderfully easy - 
lower and zip, and I leave the stack pack on and raised unless I'm racing. 

The main is loose footed, so the stack pack attaches to the boom via a sewn in 
tape that slides in the the boom slot. The whole thing can be tied close to the 
main with sail ties under the main for racing. The lazy jacks can then be led 
along the boom, straight up, then down the mast around a single cleat on each 
side. There's a flap that goes around the front of the boom and attaches with 
zippers to each side of the stack pack. All in all a wonderful arrangement, and 
easy to install and remove.

Two complaints - 

1) the boat needs to be dead into the wind when raising and when lowering the 
sail, or the battens catch the  jacks, and 

2) the stack pack can chafe on the jib sheets when tied to the boom going 
downwind. 

These are nothing when compared to the reduction in effort in raising, 
lowering, and covering the sail. I wouldn't be without it ever again. Oh, and I 
have a pacific blue sail sunbrella cover for an LF38 - very good condition, 
used 2 seasons - for sale if anyone wants it.
Dan SheerPegathy, LF38 
Rock Creek off the Patapsco
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Re: Stus-List Fwd: Short handed sailing; sail selection

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Gotcha

On Dec 3, 2016 2:41 PM, "BillBinaList via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> What I said was that there are no mods to the sail cover needed. Some
> systems require the sail cover to have slots cut in it, and the Dutchman
> system requires mods to the sail itself.  :-)
>
> Bill Bina
>
> On 12/3/2016 3:27 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> Why isn't a sail cover needed?
>
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
> On Dec 3, 2016 12:24 PM, "BillBinaList via CnC-List" <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> I have the lazy jack system (Sail Cradle) from Sailcare.com. It is a
>> little different from standard lazy jacks and after using it for many
>> years, I like the way it works, and appreciate the different approach. I
>> made one minor modification. I added cheek blocks (sailcare has a line of
>> iIalian sailing hardware that rivals Harken, but at much nicer prices)
>> where they attach to the mast, and a halyard coming down so I can adjust
>> the tension easily. After about 5 years, the original shock cord started to
>> lose it's strength and I replaced it easily with better quality shock cord
>> from Defender that is probably 8 years old now and shows no signs of
>> weakening. Because of the shock cord, I can deploy the lazy jacks whenever
>> convenient while out sailing, and there is no chafe of the sails, because
>> it doesn't slide or move at all. When I got mine, I think they were at
>> Mark-II. Now they are at Mark-IV. I have no idea what the changes are. I
>> single-hand a lot, and this really makes things a lot easier. No mods to
>> the sail or sail cover needed. Sailcare has expanded into a source for a
>> lot of sailing specific goodies.
>>
>> http://www.sailcare.com/sailcradle.shtml
>>
>> Bill BIna
>>
>>
>
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Re: Stus-List Fwd: Short handed sailing; sail selection

[BillBinaList via CnC-List]

What I said was that there are no mods to the sail cover needed. Some 
systems require the sail cover to have slots cut in it, and the Dutchman 
system requires mods to the sail itself. :-)


Bill Bina


On 12/3/2016 3:27 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List wrote:

Bill,

Why isn't a sail cover needed?

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD

On Dec 3, 2016 12:24 PM, "BillBinaList via CnC-List" 
> wrote:


I have the lazy jack system (Sail Cradle) from Sailcare.com. It is
a little different from standard lazy jacks and after using it for
many years, I like the way it works, and appreciate the different
approach. I made one minor modification. I added cheek blocks
(sailcare has a line of iIalian sailing hardware that rivals
Harken, but at much nicer prices) where they attach to the mast,
and a halyard coming down so I can adjust the tension easily.
After about 5 years, the original shock cord started to lose it's
strength and I replaced it easily with better quality shock cord
from Defender that is probably 8 years old now and shows no signs
of weakening. Because of the shock cord, I can deploy the lazy
jacks whenever convenient while out sailing, and there is no chafe
of the sails, because it doesn't slide or move at all. When I got
mine, I think they were at Mark-II. Now they are at Mark-IV. I
have no idea what the changes are. I single-hand a lot, and this
really makes things a lot easier. No mods to the sail or sail
cover needed. Sailcare has expanded into a source for a lot of
sailing specific goodies.

http://www.sailcare.com/sailcradle.shtml


Bill BIna




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Re: Stus-List Fwd: Short handed sailing; sail selection

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Bill,

Why isn't a sail cover needed?

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD

On Dec 3, 2016 12:24 PM, "BillBinaList via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> I have the lazy jack system (Sail Cradle) from Sailcare.com. It is a
> little different from standard lazy jacks and after using it for many
> years, I like the way it works, and appreciate the different approach. I
> made one minor modification. I added cheek blocks (sailcare has a line of
> iIalian sailing hardware that rivals Harken, but at much nicer prices)
> where they attach to the mast, and a halyard coming down so I can adjust
> the tension easily. After about 5 years, the original shock cord started to
> lose it's strength and I replaced it easily with better quality shock cord
> from Defender that is probably 8 years old now and shows no signs of
> weakening. Because of the shock cord, I can deploy the lazy jacks whenever
> convenient while out sailing, and there is no chafe of the sails, because
> it doesn't slide or move at all. When I got mine, I think they were at
> Mark-II. Now they are at Mark-IV. I have no idea what the changes are. I
> single-hand a lot, and this really makes things a lot easier. No mods to
> the sail or sail cover needed. Sailcare has expanded into a source for a
> lot of sailing specific goodies.
>
> http://www.sailcare.com/sailcradle.shtml
>
> Bill BIna
>
> On 12/3/2016 11:27 AM, Garry Cross via CnC-List wrote:
>
> I don't think this was answered. I have a lazy jack system that I built
> myself similar to what is on the photo album website. It's only 3 legged
> and if I was to do it again I would make if 4 legged. My horn cleats are on
> the mast in line with the boom with the blocks above the spreaders. Stowing
> and deploying are similar to described on the website. I used 3/16 and
> nylon thimbles in the eye's.
> The issue with lazy jacks versus a stack pack would likely be spilling of
> the sail. I don't think with the pack it can fall out. I get this with only
> 3 legs when windy and choppy and single handed with the boat rocking and
> rolling and not quite head to wind.
>
> It is still way better than no jacks or pack at all. One of the first
> things I added.
>
> Garry Cross
> 1974 CC35, CBYC, Lake Ontario
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Fwd: Short handed sailing; sail selection

[BillBinaList via CnC-List]

I have the lazy jack system (Sail Cradle) from Sailcare.com. It is a 
little different from standard lazy jacks and after using it for many 
years, I like the way it works, and appreciate the different approach. I 
made one minor modification. I added cheek blocks (sailcare has a line 
of iIalian sailing hardware that rivals Harken, but at much nicer 
prices) where they attach to the mast, and a halyard coming down so I 
can adjust the tension easily. After about 5 years, the original shock 
cord started to lose it's strength and I replaced it easily with better 
quality shock cord from Defender that is probably 8 years old now and 
shows no signs of weakening. Because of the shock cord, I can deploy the 
lazy jacks whenever convenient while out sailing, and there is no chafe 
of the sails, because it doesn't slide or move at all. When I got mine, 
I think they were at Mark-II. Now they are at Mark-IV. I have no idea 
what the changes are. I single-hand a lot, and this really makes things 
a lot easier. No mods to the sail or sail cover needed. Sailcare has 
expanded into a source for a lot of sailing specific goodies.


http://www.sailcare.com/sailcradle.shtml

Bill BIna


On 12/3/2016 11:27 AM, Garry Cross via CnC-List wrote:
I don't think this was answered. I have a lazy jack system that I 
built myself similar to what is on the photo album website. It's only 
3 legged and if I was to do it again I would make if 4 legged. My horn 
cleats are on the mast in line with the boom with the blocks above the 
spreaders. Stowing and deploying are similar to described on the 
website. I used 3/16 and nylon thimbles in the eye's.
The issue with lazy jacks versus a stack pack would likely be spilling 
of the sail. I don't think with the pack it can fall out. I get this 
with only 3 legs when windy and choppy and single handed with the boat 
rocking and rolling and not quite head to wind.


It is still way better than no jacks or pack at all. One of the first 
things I added.


Garry Cross
1974 CC35, CBYC, Lake Ontario



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Re: Stus-List Sail Flaking

[Tim Goodyear via CnC-List]

I would second support for the Dutchman system, it worked very well on my boat, 
apart from maybe the finicky mainsail cover (the same as lazy jacks if you 
don't move them before you cover the sail).

We have just changed over to lazy jacks and a stack pack sail cover because it 
wouldn't have been possible to put the cover on over the new Bimini.  Our sail 
slide stack is ~9' above the deck, so this is much easier than climbing on the 
gooseneck.

Tim

> On Dec 2, 2016, at 11:30 PM, Jim Eagon via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I've been reading this subject for a few days now, and it's interesting that 
> it doesn't look like anybody has mentioned the Dutchman Flaking System. I 
> really like mine and it works very well for flaking my sail when 
> single-handing.
> 
> They have a website you can Google and learn more about the system - it's 
> simple and works really well and doesn't seem to be a problem for cruising or 
> racing and it's never in the way. 
> 
> Fair winds and fun sailing!
> 
> Jim Eagon 
> "Trinity"
> 

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Re: Stus-List Fwd: Short handed sailing; sail selection

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

My boat came with lazy jacks and they worked... Sorta.  As others have
mentioned, the attachment to the mast was foo narrow.  As it turns out it
was also too low.  Since the boom is so high it was extremely difficult to
put the sail cover on and monkeying with it around the jacks was annoying.
Then the hole pack would sag down around the boom and drag on the dodger.
If you can stand on the cabin top and have the boom at waist height or
lower then a pack may not be significantly easier.

When I had the sail pack made, the maker moved the blocks off the mast, on
the second spreader (2 of 3), and about 1/3rd of the way out.  He used a 4
leg design and it seems that this is mainly dependent on the length of the
boom.  I'm almost 16' long so a jack leg every 4' helps keep the sail from
slipping out and it distributes the load of the pack better so that the
sides don't get saggy.

There are different ways of finishing off the leading edge at the mast.
Some packs use zippers to attach a cover that wraps around.  I've seen some
that use bungee to create a blouse on each side and nothing wraps around
the mast.  The method I requested was to have a partial sail cover made.  I
call it the horse collar.  Can't really even explain why.  If we're coming
in for a night I might not even put it on.  It just closes up the forward
edge.  I guess to protect the luff from sun damage...

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD

On Dec 2, 2016 2:10 PM, "bushmark4--- via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> Marek; thanks for the advice...I sure like the idea of spending $1000 vs
> many $100sss!
>
> Richard
> S/V Bushmark4; 1985 C 37 CB; Ohio River, Mile 596.
> Richard N. Bush
> 2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine
> Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462
> 502-584-7255 <(502)%20584-7255>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List 
> To: cnc-list 
> Cc: Marek Dziedzic 
> Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2016 2:42 pm
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Short handed sailing; sail selection
>
>
> I am not to try dissuading you about the stack pack; however, before you
> spring $$$ for that improvement, try a simple set of lazy jacks. The total
> cost of a set would be under $100 (especially, if you do it all yourself).
> I find them (lazy jacks) extremely useful, especially, if you single handle.
>
> Some people don’t like the lazy jacks (but the stack pack would have the
> same issues). The problems arise from the lines getting entangled in
> battens. The solution for that is to move the lines from the mast to the
> spreaders (half way is enough) and making sure that when you set the main
> or drop it you are reasonably close to wind (right into the wind,
> preferably).
>
> Marek
> 1994 C270 “Legato”
> Ottawa, ON
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Fwd: Short handed sailing; sail selection

[Garry Cross via CnC-List]

I don't think this was answered. I have a lazy jack system that I built
myself similar to what is on the photo album website. It's only 3 legged
and if I was to do it again I would make if 4 legged. My horn cleats are on
the mast in line with the boom with the blocks above the spreaders. Stowing
and deploying are similar to described on the website. I used 3/16 and
nylon thimbles in the eye's.
The issue with lazy jacks versus a stack pack would likely be spilling of
the sail. I don't think with the pack it can fall out. I get this with only
3 legs when windy and choppy and single handed with the boat rocking and
rolling and not quite head to wind.

It is still way better than no jacks or pack at all. One of the first
things I added.

Garry Cross
1974 CC35, CBYC, Lake Ontario

-- Forwarded message --
From: bushma...@aol.com
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc:
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 15:40:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Stus-List Fwd: Short handed sailing; sail selection
Mike, could you elaborate a bit? Do you mean the lazy jacks are not as good
as having a stackpack type arrangement? Thanks

Richard
S/V Bushmark4; 1985 C 37 CB; Ohio River, Mile 596

Richard N. Bush
2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine
Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462
502-584-7255 <%28502%29%20584-7255>


-Original Message-
From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List 
To: cnc-list 
Cc: Hoyt, Mike 
Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2016 3:37 pm
Subject: Re: Stus-List Fwd: Short handed sailing; sail selection

I have lazy jacks and I have sailed on a boat with Stack Pack.  Lazy Jacks
are not at all the same.

Mike
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Stus-List 25 for sail - almost free.

[Dave via CnC-List]

Saw this this morning.   Bargains often are not, however here's a low price for 
a 25 - Canadian $.
No knowledge of boat.

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-sailboat/oakville-halton-region/c-and-c-25-1-000-first-person-647-973-1466/1220630583?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

Dave.

Sent from my iPad___

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Re: Stus-List Short handed sailing; sail selection - now lazy jacks

[Dave S via CnC-List]

Worked a lot on shorthanded sailing last season.

Another vote for lazy jacks.  Mine use a rolling hitch at the mast - I have
to go forward to slide the hitch(es) up and down to loosen/tighten.   The
33-2 is small enough that I can stand on the bridgedeck and fake the sail
into the lazyjacks by yanking on the leech as the sail drops.
My new mainsail has two full battens so I expect this will be easier.
Dave - am interested in seeing your new and improved lazyjack design if you
don't mind posting or sending.   Many thanks.

Dave Syer windstar 33-2


-- Forwarded message --
From: Dave Godwin 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc:
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 18:31:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Stus-List Short handed sailing; sail selection - now lazy jacks
Richard,

I’ve never had lazy-jacks on any of my boats but have just given my new
rigger a detailed set of drawings for a 3-leg lazy-jack system that allows
me to pull on one line which will pull all the lazy-jacks tight to the mast
while sailing. I really, really hate the idea of lazy-jacks and/or a
topping lift rubbing against my mainsail. Just the way I roll I guess.

That said, these days, having the ability to drop a mainsail/ fake it and
cover it fairly quickly makes my wife very happy…

If you’re interested, I can send you a copy of the design.

Best,
Dave Godwin
1982 C 37 - Ronin
Reedville - Chesapeake Bay
Ronin’s Overdue Refit 
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Re: Stus-List Short handed sailing; sail selection - now lazy jacks

[Andrew Burton via CnC-List]

Speaking as one who has used in boom furling a lot, my advice is don't do it! 
It's finicky in that it requires the boom to be at exactly the right angle to 
the mast when you're furling, and you have to be pretty close to head to wind 
to reef or drop the sail. Many times with either a bat-car or Tides system I've 
reefed while running wing and wing and wouldn't have wanted to turn the boat 
around and motor into the seas in those conditions. It's also one more thing to 
break. I would never consider it for myself. When using that system on clients' 
boats, I always have to position someone up by the mast to monitor the sail as 
it's furling to make sure the sail isn't winding forward or aft, either of 
which can damage the sail. With lazy jacks and a Tides Strong Track, I can drop 
the sail by simple letting the halyard go when I'm head to wind and two seconds 
later the sail is down. Not with the in boom furling system.
Just my $.05.
Andy
C 40
Peregrine

Andrew Burton
61 W Narragansett
Newport, RI 
USA02840

http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

> On Dec 2, 2016, at 19:04, Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> In boom furling.  Mike drop!
> 
> Typoed from my iPhone
> 
> Tom Buscaglia
> Alera 1990 C 37+/40
> Vashon Island WA
> O 206.463.9200
> C 305.409.3660
> Skype - thombusc
> 
> 
> 
>> On Dec 2, 2016, at 3:51 PM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote:
>> 
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 15:50:12 -0800
>> From: "Larry" 
>> To: 
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Short handed sailing; sail selection - now lazy
>>   jacks
>> Message-ID:
>>   
>> 
>> 
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> 
>> David
>> 
>> I have a system that is very similar to E Z  jack system and it is great. I 
>> store it when underway and only deploy it when I am ready to lower the sail.
>> 
>> I tried their website, but there seems to be a problem with their site.
>> 
>> I can send you a couple of pdf?s with the design and how to set it up. I 
>> just replaced all the line to mine. 
>> 
>> A real easy system to maintain and use.
>> 
>> Larry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dave 
>> Godwin via CnC-List
>> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2016 3:32 PM
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish 
> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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