Re: Stus-List Prop pitch. And handing cc 33 mk1 1976

[Dave. via CnC-List]

Doug, 
I found an old survey that indicates that my Martec folding prop is 16x10. Hope 
that is what you needed.
Regards,
Dave.
1975 C 33
SLY

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 3, 2019, at 10:34 AM, Dave. via CnC-List  wrote:
> 
> Congratulations on your purchase of a C 33 mk1. They are great boats, 
> lovely lines and a great sail-er. We have owned one for many years,  since 
> the 80s and love her. Perfect size for cruising with a couple and even with a 
> couple of kids and always performs well on the race course. And we have an 
> atomic 4 V drive with a Martel folding prop. I don’t know the specs for the 
> prop but I will see if I have that information in my file. I can tell you 
> that the pro works fine in forward developing about 6 knots at 1800 RPMs but 
> is a bit difficult in reverse. Takes a lot of revs in reverse to get any way 
> on and most often just wants to back to port or into the wind. Some times one 
> blade of the prop will stay folded causing heavy vibration but this can be 
> corrected by putting in reverse for a moment and then back into forward. 
> Good luck,
> Dave.
> 1975 C 33
> SLY
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Apr 2, 2019, at 10:19 AM, doug coup via CnC-List  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I have recently purchased mk1, with missing prop.  I have seen several other 
>> models but they have different pitches and sizes.  I am looking at Martec 
>> folding props used which I believe were standard.
>> 
>> What is the original spec for this Atomic 4 engine or if you have a newer 
>> better option.
>> Why.
>> 
>> 
>> Doug Coup
>> Renewal by Andersen
>> 847-452-8087
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 


___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

When I got my boat in 1997, the pole had been laying in grass for 4 years and 
was crummy, 4 ½” in diameter, big clunky ends  and weighed a ton, I would never 
have used it.

I ordered a carbon spar from Forespar that I can whip around with one hand. I 
think 16 feet is their limit for 3 ½” diameter, but they made an exception if 
they could put an extra wrap or two of carbon to go to 17’.  Put a Harken track 
up the mast to store it there, works like a dream, and  I have never once 
regretted it. I think at the time it was around $1500.

 

Bill Coleman

C 39 Erie, PAanimated_favicon1

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Richard via 
CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 12:55 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Richard
Subject: Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and 
height

 

Joe; what I would like to get is some analysis on whether the lighter pole is 
worth the additional cost? Thanks 

Sent from my iPhone


On Apr 3, 2019, at 12:25 PM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Pro – it is lighter

Con – it costs more

 

Joe

Coquina

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Richard Bush 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 1:46 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Richard Bush 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and 
height

 

Andy; I liked your article; would you advise pro or con on the cost of using a 
carbon fiber whisker pole? Thanks

 

Richard

s/v Bushmark4: 1985 C 37 CB: Ohio River, Mile 596

Richard N. Bush

2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine 

Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462 

502-584-7255

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Andrew Burton via CnC-List 
To: cnc-list 
Cc: Andrew Burton 
Sent: Tue, Apr 2, 2019 10:26 am
Subject: Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height

Here's a short piece I wrote on how to rig and set a pole. It really isn't too 
big a chore, if you do it right.

https://www.cruisingworld.com/how/sailing-downwind-set-whisker-pole

 

Andy

Andrew Burton 

139 Tuckerman Ave

Middletown, RI 

USA02842

 

www.burtonsailing.com

http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/ 

+401 965-5260


On Apr 2, 2019, at 09:33, David Knecht via CnC-List  
wrote:

I have to disagree with the recommendation to just use the spinnaker pole.  I 
bought a whisker pole because it weighs much less than the spinnaker pole and I 
can store it vertically attached at the mast end.  I don’t think I could 
maneuver the spinnaker pole in place by myself on the unstable deck of a boat 
downwind.  I don’t trust my balance plus it is really heavy and unwieldy even 
on firm ground.  The whisker pole also allows me to set different lengths 
depending on conditions.   

 

Related to that: I read the Forespar recommendations on whisker pole use the 
other day.  They strongly recommended using a topping lift.  I have not done 
that although I have one.  It seems like it might affect sail shape as the 
weight of the pole pulling down on the clew might alter the shape of the leech 
of the sail.  I will play when I can sail again, but wonder if anyone has 
thoughts.  Dave 

 

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT


 

 

On Mar 29, 2019, at 7:04 PM, dwight veinot via CnC-List  
wrote:

 

Pretty serious racers there worrying about using a whisker pole longer than J 
and the associated time penalty and that is really only a consideration on a 
run. There are so many other reasons to take extra seconds or minutes to 
complete the course. Just stick with your spin pole use your topping lift and 
pole the genoa out a little to windward so wing on wing with genoa to weather 
Always found that fastest on a run and less chance of accidental jibe of the 
mainsail. Try it if you got a spinn pole onboard

 

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 7:48 PM David via CnC-List  
wrote:

If I were racing in that neck of the woods I would like some clarification of 
this.   Unrestricted pole length is a major advantage...especially in light 
airs.   

Get Outlook for Android

 


  _  


From: CnC-List  on behalf of Michael Brown via 
CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 12:40:21 PM


To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Michael Brown
Subject: Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height 

 

Not much in the PHRF-LO Handicapper's manual on the topic. It is covered in

meeting notes from 2008 and 2009.

 

WPL penalty – There will no longer be a penalty for oversized Whisker Pole 
lengths.

 

2009 Spring Meeting.

 

https://www.phrf-lo.org/index.php/about-us/meetings/central-council/205-2009-spring-meeting

 

It would be nice if there was some definitive statement in the current 
documentation but I

do not see any.

 

 

Michael Brown

Windburn

C 30-1







Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 12:45:53 + 
From: "Hoyt, Mike"  
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com"  


Michael 

Check the PHRF-LO bylaws carefully.  In PHRF-NS the whicker pole is considered 
to be a 

Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height

[David via CnC-List]

While sail furled (or even unfurled if jibing) attach sheet to pole.  Attach 
inner end of pole to mast. Attach topping lift and fore-guy.  Raise pole up to  
clew of sale whilst under some fore-guy tension.

Unroll sail with sheet while playing out foreguy.

Reverse to put away.

As Andy said...should not be a big deal if you plan ahead.

FYI.  My spin pole is aluminum and almost 17' feet long.

For the  number of times we do this its kinda hard to amortize the cost of 
carbon fibre.




David F. Risch, J. D.

Gulf Stream Associates, LLC

(401) 419-4650


From: CnC-List  on behalf of Frederick G Street 
via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 2:20 PM
To: David via CnC-List
Cc: Frederick G Street
Subject: Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and 
height

One other thing to keep in mind: if you do damage a pole, and it’s carbon 
fiber, it’s going to be a pricey fix.  With aluminum, you can usually remove 
and reuse the end fittings and get new tubing; or if the damage is near an end 
fitting, cut the damaged tubing off and reinstall the end fitting on a shorter, 
but still usable, pole.

— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

On Apr 3, 2019, at 1:00 PM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

That is kind of variable. My aluminum spinnaker pole is heavy and awkward for 
me to deal with. I would LOVE the weight reduction of a carbon fiber pole. It 
would make a hard job easy.
No budget for it through and I can handle the pole, so I do. If I was 5 feet 
tall and 100 pounds, a carbon pole would be more of a requirement than a luxury.

Joe
Coquina
C 35 MK I
___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height

[Richard Bush via CnC-List]

 Jack; thank you for the info; I am surprised at the 50% extra weight; is that 
due to the specs of your pole or are all carbon fiber poles going to have that 
issue?Also, how many people are you including as "crew" does it take more than 
one person to muscle it around?
 
Richard
 s/v Bushmark4: 1985 C 37 CB; Ohio River, Mile 596
Richard N. Bush 
2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine 
Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462 
502-584-7255 
 
-Original Message-
From: Jack Fitzgerald via CnC-List 
To: C 
Cc: Jack Fitzgerald 
Sent: Wed, Apr 3, 2019 3:46 pm
Subject: Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and 
height

All
I had Forespar build a line drive carbon fiber whisker pole (all carbon fiber, 
no aluminum extension) for our C 39TM 5 years ago. I spent the time to 
discuss at length the build with Forespar tech at their facility in CA since I 
wanted the pole to work not only as an expandable whisker pole to use when 
white sail racing but also as a J (16') legal spinnaker pole.
The end result works very well, but the pole is about 50%+ heavier than Honey's 
original aluminum pole, so no joy weight wise. The topping lift must be used 
with this pole due to it's weight, no exceptions.
However, it is expandable to approximately 28' in light to medium breezes and 
has taken all of the punishment that our original aluminum pole did when used 
with either our A sails or symmetrical chutes. 
The final cost was slightly over 4 USD boat bucks in delivered costs and that 
was the wholesale price via our Port Supply (now West Marine PRO) account. 
Carbon Fiber poles are EXPENSIVE and you must keep it covered since they do not 
like UV exposure for long periods of time. Forespar will not warranty their 
poles for US damage related issues.
Also, the line drive carbon pole does not have the outboard release at the butt 
end so we have either drop the pole on to the fore deck to release the clew or 
hope like hell that the fore deck crew doesn't forget to tie on the tag line to 
release the clew before we do the end dip jibe.
Do we like this pole: Yes
Would I have another one built: No
Just my 2 cents worth.

___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Stus-List : Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height

[robert via CnC-List]

We bent a spin pole on a C 33 MKII a day before the start of Chester 
Race Weekcalled the Binnacle who said bring the bent pole and they 
would have us a new one in two hours or less...they cannibalized it and 
only really needed a new tube, which they had. We were ready to go in 1 
1/2 hours.


Now if that had been carbon fibre, we would not have raced in Chester in 
our class.maybe cruiser class, white sail only, no spin.




On 2019-04-03 3:20 p.m., Frederick G Street via CnC-List wrote:
One other thing to keep in mind: if you do damage a pole, and it’s 
carbon fiber, it’s going to be a pricey fix.  With aluminum, you can 
usually remove and reuse the end fittings and get new tubing; or if 
the damage is near an end fitting, cut the damaged tubing off and 
reinstall the end fitting on a shorter, but still usable, pole.


— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(



___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height

[Jack Fitzgerald via CnC-List]

All

I had Forespar build a line drive carbon fiber whisker pole (all carbon
fiber, no aluminum extension) for our C 39TM 5 years ago. I spent the
time to discuss at length the build with Forespar tech at their facility in
CA since I wanted the pole to work not only as an expandable whisker pole
to use when white sail racing but also as a J (16') legal spinnaker pole.

The end result works very well, but the pole is about 50%+ heavier than
Honey's original aluminum pole, so no joy weight wise. The topping lift
must be used with this pole due to it's weight, no exceptions.

However, it is expandable to approximately 28' in light to medium breezes
and has taken all of the punishment that our original aluminum pole did
when used with either our A sails or symmetrical chutes.

The final cost was slightly over 4 USD boat bucks in delivered costs and
that was the wholesale price via our Port Supply (now West Marine PRO)
account.

Carbon Fiber poles are EXPENSIVE and you must keep it covered since they do
not like UV exposure for long periods of time. Forespar will not warranty
their poles for US damage related issues.

Also, the line drive carbon pole does not have the outboard release at the
butt end so we have either drop the pole on to the fore deck to release the
clew or hope like hell that the fore deck crew doesn't forget to tie on the
tag line to release the clew before we do the end dip jibe.

Do we like this pole: Yes

Would I have another one built: No

Just my 2 cents worth.

Best regards,
Jack Fitzgerald
HONEY - US12788
C 39TM (1974)
Savannah, GA 31410 USA
Tel. no: 912 898.1069 - Fax no: 912 898.9458 - 24/7 mobile number: 912
441.2296
Email*: j...@fitzgeraldforwarding.com
www.fitzgeraldforwarding.com

This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
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have received this message in error, then delete it.  Thank you



On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 2:01 PM Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> That is kind of variable. My aluminum spinnaker pole is heavy and awkward
> for me to deal with. I would LOVE the weight reduction of a carbon fiber
> pole. It would make a hard job easy.
>
> No budget for it through and I can handle the pole, so I do. If I was 5
> feet tall and 100 pounds, a carbon pole would be more of a requirement than
> a luxury.
>
>
>
> Joe
>
> Coquina
>
> C 35 MK I
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Richard
> via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 03, 2019 12:55 PM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* Richard 
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Downwind sailing- Whisker pole
> length and height
>
>
>
> Joe; what I would like to get is some analysis on whether the lighter pole
> is worth the additional cost? Thanks
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Apr 3, 2019, at 12:25 PM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Pro – it is lighter
>
> Con – it costs more
>
>
>
> Joe
>
> Coquina
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com
> ] *On Behalf Of *Richard Bush via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 02, 2019 1:46 PM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* Richard Bush 
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length
> and height
>
>
>
> Andy; I liked your article; would you advise pro or con on the cost of
> using a carbon fiber whisker pole? Thanks
>
>
>
> Richard
>
> s/v Bushmark4: 1985 C 37 CB: Ohio River, Mile 596
>
> Richard N. Bush
>
> 2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine
>
> Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462
>
> 502-584-7255
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew Burton via CnC-List 
> To: cnc-list 
> Cc: Andrew Burton 
> Sent: Tue, Apr 2, 2019 10:26 am
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height
>
> Here's a short piece I wrote on how to rig and set a pole. It really isn't
> too big a chore, if you do it right.
>
> https://www.cruisingworld.com/how/sailing-downwind-set-whisker-pole
>
>
>
> Andy
>
> Andrew Burton
>
> 139 Tuckerman Ave
>
> Middletown, RI
>
> USA02842
>
>
>
> www.burtonsailing.com
>
> http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
>
> +401 965-5260
>
>
> On Apr 2, 2019, at 09:33, David Knecht via CnC-List 
> wrote:
>
> I have to disagree with the recommendation to just use the spinnaker
> pole.  I bought a whisker pole because it weighs much less than the
> spinnaker pole and I can store it vertically attached at the mast end.  I
> don’t think I could maneuver the spinnaker pole in place by myself on the
> unstable deck of a boat downwind.  I don’t trust my balance plus it is
> really heavy and unwieldy even on firm ground.  The whisker pole also
> allows me to set different lengths 

Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

One other thing to keep in mind: if you do damage a pole, and it’s carbon 
fiber, it’s going to be a pricey fix.  With aluminum, you can usually remove 
and reuse the end fittings and get new tubing; or if the damage is near an end 
fitting, cut the damaged tubing off and reinstall the end fitting on a shorter, 
but still usable, pole.

— Fred 

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

> On Apr 3, 2019, at 1:00 PM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
> 
> That is kind of variable. My aluminum spinnaker pole is heavy and awkward for 
> me to deal with. I would LOVE the weight reduction of a carbon fiber pole. It 
> would make a hard job easy.
> No budget for it through and I can handle the pole, so I do. If I was 5 feet 
> tall and 100 pounds, a carbon pole would be more of a requirement than a 
> luxury.
>  
> Joe
> Coquina
> C 35 MK I
___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

That is kind of variable. My aluminum spinnaker pole is heavy and awkward for 
me to deal with. I would LOVE the weight reduction of a carbon fiber pole. It 
would make a hard job easy.
No budget for it through and I can handle the pole, so I do. If I was 5 feet 
tall and 100 pounds, a carbon pole would be more of a requirement than a luxury.

Joe
Coquina
C 35 MK I


From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Richard via 
CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 12:55 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Richard 
Subject: Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and 
height

Joe; what I would like to get is some analysis on whether the lighter pole is 
worth the additional cost? Thanks
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 3, 2019, at 12:25 PM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Pro – it is lighter
Con – it costs more

Joe
Coquina

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Richard Bush 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 1:46 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Richard Bush mailto:bushma...@aol.com>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and 
height

Andy; I liked your article; would you advise pro or con on the cost of using a 
carbon fiber whisker pole? Thanks

Richard
s/v Bushmark4: 1985 C 37 CB: Ohio River, Mile 596
Richard N. Bush
2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine
Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462
502-584-7255


-Original Message-
From: Andrew Burton via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
To: cnc-list mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Andrew Burton mailto:a.burton.sai...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tue, Apr 2, 2019 10:26 am
Subject: Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height
Here's a short piece I wrote on how to rig and set a pole. It really isn't too 
big a chore, if you do it right.
https://www.cruisingworld.com/how/sailing-downwind-set-whisker-pole

Andy

Andrew Burton
139 Tuckerman Ave
Middletown, RI
USA02842

www.burtonsailing.com
http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

On Apr 2, 2019, at 09:33, David Knecht via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
I have to disagree with the recommendation to just use the spinnaker pole.  I 
bought a whisker pole because it weighs much less than the spinnaker pole and I 
can store it vertically attached at the mast end.  I don’t think I could 
maneuver the spinnaker pole in place by myself on the unstable deck of a boat 
downwind.  I don’t trust my balance plus it is really heavy and unwieldy even 
on firm ground.  The whisker pole also allows me to set different lengths 
depending on conditions.

Related to that: I read the Forespar recommendations on whisker pole use the 
other day.  They strongly recommended using a topping lift.  I have not done 
that although I have one.  It seems like it might affect sail shape as the 
weight of the pole pulling down on the clew might alter the shape of the leech 
of the sail.  I will play when I can sail again, but wonder if anyone has 
thoughts.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



On Mar 29, 2019, at 7:04 PM, dwight veinot via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Pretty serious racers there worrying about using a whisker pole longer than J 
and the associated time penalty and that is really only a consideration on a 
run. There are so many other reasons to take extra seconds or minutes to 
complete the course. Just stick with your spin pole use your topping lift and 
pole the genoa out a little to windward so wing on wing with genoa to weather 
Always found that fastest on a run and less chance of accidental jibe of the 
mainsail. Try it if you got a spinn pole onboard

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 7:48 PM David via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
If I were racing in that neck of the woods I would like some clarification of 
this.   Unrestricted pole length is a major advantage...especially in light 
airs.
Get Outlook for Android


From: CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> on behalf 
of Michael Brown via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 12:40:21 PM

To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Michael Brown
Subject: Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height

Not much in the PHRF-LO Handicapper's manual on the topic. It is covered in
meeting notes from 2008 and 2009.

WPL penalty – There will no longer be a penalty for oversized Whisker Pole 
lengths.

2009 Spring Meeting.

https://www.phrf-lo.org/index.php/about-us/meetings/central-council/205-2009-spring-meeting

It would be nice if there was some definitive statement in the current 
documentation but I
do not see any.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 12:45:53 +
From: "Hoyt, Mike" mailto:mike.h...@impgroup.com>>
To: 

Re: Stus-List Prop pitch. And handing cc 33 mk1 1976

[Dave. via CnC-List]

Congratulations on your purchase of a C 33 mk1. They are great boats, lovely 
lines and a great sail-er. We have owned one for many years,  since the 80s and 
love her. Perfect size for cruising with a couple and even with a couple of 
kids and always performs well on the race course. And we have an atomic 4 V 
drive with a Martel folding prop. I don’t know the specs for the prop but I 
will see if I have that information in my file. I can tell you that the pro 
works fine in forward developing about 6 knots at 1800 RPMs but is a bit 
difficult in reverse. Takes a lot of revs in reverse to get any way on and most 
often just wants to back to port or into the wind. Some times one blade of the 
prop will stay folded causing heavy vibration but this can be corrected by 
putting in reverse for a moment and then back into forward. 
Good luck,
Dave.
1975 C 33
SLY

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 2, 2019, at 10:19 AM, doug coup via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> I have recently purchased mk1, with missing prop.  I have seen several other 
> models but they have different pitches and sizes.  I am looking at Martec 
> folding props used which I believe were standard.
> 
> What is the original spec for this Atomic 4 engine or if you have a newer 
> better option.
> Why.
> 
> 
> Doug Coup
> Renewal by Andersen
> 847-452-8087
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 


___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height

[John Conklin via CnC-List]

Nice and I am jealous ! What size jib  vs. Pole length? Thx

John Conklin
South East Sales and Business Development
cel 301-412-8991
j.conk...@marraforni.com
www.marraforni.com


From: CnC-List  on behalf of Andrew Burton via 
CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 12:54:48 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Andrew Burton
Subject: Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and 
height

Currently sailing downwind off the N coast of Puerto Rico and just set up the 
22' pole to wing out the jib by myself in 20 knots of breeze while my wife 
steered. It really isn't hard. People often overthink the process, though.
Andy

Andrew Burton
139 Tuckerman Ave
Middletown, RI
USA 02842

+401 965 5260
https://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/



On Apr 3, 2019, at 12:25, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Pro – it is lighter
Con – it costs more

Joe
Coquina

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Richard Bush 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 1:46 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Richard Bush mailto:bushma...@aol.com>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and 
height

Andy; I liked your article; would you advise pro or con on the cost of using a 
carbon fiber whisker pole? Thanks

Richard
s/v Bushmark4: 1985 C 37 CB: Ohio River, Mile 596
Richard N. Bush
2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine
Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462
502-584-7255


-Original Message-
From: Andrew Burton via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
To: cnc-list mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Andrew Burton mailto:a.burton.sai...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tue, Apr 2, 2019 10:26 am
Subject: Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height
Here's a short piece I wrote on how to rig and set a pole. It really isn't too 
big a chore, if you do it right.
https://www.cruisingworld.com/how/sailing-downwind-set-whisker-pole

Andy

Andrew Burton
139 Tuckerman Ave
Middletown, RI
USA02842

www.burtonsailing.com
http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

On Apr 2, 2019, at 09:33, David Knecht via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
I have to disagree with the recommendation to just use the spinnaker pole.  I 
bought a whisker pole because it weighs much less than the spinnaker pole and I 
can store it vertically attached at the mast end.  I don’t think I could 
maneuver the spinnaker pole in place by myself on the unstable deck of a boat 
downwind.  I don’t trust my balance plus it is really heavy and unwieldy even 
on firm ground.  The whisker pole also allows me to set different lengths 
depending on conditions.

Related to that: I read the Forespar recommendations on whisker pole use the 
other day.  They strongly recommended using a topping lift.  I have not done 
that although I have one.  It seems like it might affect sail shape as the 
weight of the pole pulling down on the clew might alter the shape of the leech 
of the sail.  I will play when I can sail again, but wonder if anyone has 
thoughts.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



On Mar 29, 2019, at 7:04 PM, dwight veinot via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Pretty serious racers there worrying about using a whisker pole longer than J 
and the associated time penalty and that is really only a consideration on a 
run. There are so many other reasons to take extra seconds or minutes to 
complete the course. Just stick with your spin pole use your topping lift and 
pole the genoa out a little to windward so wing on wing with genoa to weather 
Always found that fastest on a run and less chance of accidental jibe of the 
mainsail. Try it if you got a spinn pole onboard

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 7:48 PM David via 

Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height

[Andrew Burton via CnC-List]

Currently sailing downwind off the N coast of Puerto Rico and just set up the 
22' pole to wing out the jib by myself in 20 knots of breeze while my wife 
steered. It really isn't hard. People often overthink the process, though. 
Andy

Andrew Burton
139 Tuckerman Ave
Middletown, RI 
USA 02842

+401 965 5260
https://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/



> On Apr 3, 2019, at 12:25, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Pro – it is lighter
> Con – it costs more
>  
> Joe
> Coquina
>  
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Richard 
> Bush via CnC-List
> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 1:46 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: Richard Bush 
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and 
> height
>  
> Andy; I liked your article; would you advise pro or con on the cost of using 
> a carbon fiber whisker pole? Thanks
>  
> Richard
> s/v Bushmark4: 1985 C 37 CB: Ohio River, Mile 596
> Richard N. Bush
> 2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine
> Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462
> 502-584-7255
>  
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew Burton via CnC-List 
> To: cnc-list 
> Cc: Andrew Burton 
> Sent: Tue, Apr 2, 2019 10:26 am
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height
> 
> Here's a short piece I wrote on how to rig and set a pole. It really isn't 
> too big a chore, if you do it right.
> https://www.cruisingworld.com/how/sailing-downwind-set-whisker-pole
>  
> Andy
> 
> Andrew Burton
> 139 Tuckerman Ave
> Middletown, RI 
> USA02842
>  
> www.burtonsailing.com
> http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
> +401 965-5260
> 
> On Apr 2, 2019, at 09:33, David Knecht via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> I have to disagree with the recommendation to just use the spinnaker pole.  I 
> bought a whisker pole because it weighs much less than the spinnaker pole and 
> I can store it vertically attached at the mast end.  I don’t think I could 
> maneuver the spinnaker pole in place by myself on the unstable deck of a boat 
> downwind.  I don’t trust my balance plus it is really heavy and unwieldy even 
> on firm ground.  The whisker pole also allows me to set different lengths 
> depending on conditions.  
>  
> Related to that: I read the Forespar recommendations on whisker pole use the 
> other day.  They strongly recommended using a topping lift.  I have not done 
> that although I have one.  It seems like it might affect sail shape as the 
> weight of the pole pulling down on the clew might alter the shape of the 
> leech of the sail.  I will play when I can sail again, but wonder if anyone 
> has thoughts.  Dave
>  
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
>  
> On Mar 29, 2019, at 7:04 PM, dwight veinot via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
>  
> Pretty serious racers there worrying about using a whisker pole longer than J 
> and the associated time penalty and that is really only a consideration on a 
> run. There are so many other reasons to take extra seconds or minutes to 
> complete the course. Just stick with your spin pole use your topping lift and 
> pole the genoa out a little to windward so wing on wing with genoa to weather 
> Always found that fastest on a run and less chance of accidental jibe of the 
> mainsail. Try it if you got a spinn pole onboard
>  
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 7:48 PM David via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> If I were racing in that neck of the woods I would like some clarification of 
> this.   Unrestricted pole length is a major advantage...especially in light 
> airs.  
> 
> Get Outlook for Android
>  
> From: CnC-List  on behalf of Michael Brown via 
> CnC-List 
> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 12:40:21 PM
> 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: Michael Brown
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height
>  
> Not much in the PHRF-LO Handicapper's manual on the topic. It is covered in
> meeting notes from 2008 and 2009.
>  
> WPL penalty – There will no longer be a penalty for oversized Whisker Pole 
> lengths.
>  
> 2009 Spring Meeting.
>  
> https://www.phrf-lo.org/index.php/about-us/meetings/central-council/205-2009-spring-meeting
>  
> It would be nice if there was some definitive statement in the current 
> documentation but I
> do not see any.
>  
>  
> Michael Brown
> Windburn
> C 30-1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 12:45:53 + 
> From: "Hoyt, Mike"  
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com"  
> 
> 
> Michael 
> 
> Check the PHRF-LO bylaws carefully.  In PHRF-NS the whicker pole is 
> considered to be a spinnaker pole which is limited to J.  You may wish to 
> look in a definitions section if one is available.  I have been involved with 
> handicapping for many years in our region and this is my understanding of how 
> most areas do it.  However I do know there are some areas that have separate 
> limit for whisker pole than for spinnaker pole that is permitted to be longer 
> than J ? I just cannot recall at this time which areas those are 
> 
> 

Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height

[Richard via CnC-List]

Joe; what I would like to get is some analysis on whether the lighter pole is 
worth the additional cost? Thanks 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 3, 2019, at 12:25 PM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Pro – it is lighter
> Con – it costs more
>  
> Joe
> Coquina
>  
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Richard 
> Bush via CnC-List
> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 1:46 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: Richard Bush 
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and 
> height
>  
> Andy; I liked your article; would you advise pro or con on the cost of using 
> a carbon fiber whisker pole? Thanks
>  
> Richard
> s/v Bushmark4: 1985 C 37 CB: Ohio River, Mile 596
> Richard N. Bush
> 2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine
> Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462
> 502-584-7255
>  
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew Burton via CnC-List 
> To: cnc-list 
> Cc: Andrew Burton 
> Sent: Tue, Apr 2, 2019 10:26 am
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height
> 
> Here's a short piece I wrote on how to rig and set a pole. It really isn't 
> too big a chore, if you do it right.
> https://www.cruisingworld.com/how/sailing-downwind-set-whisker-pole
>  
> Andy
> 
> Andrew Burton
> 139 Tuckerman Ave
> Middletown, RI 
> USA02842
>  
> www.burtonsailing.com
> http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
> +401 965-5260
> 
> On Apr 2, 2019, at 09:33, David Knecht via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> I have to disagree with the recommendation to just use the spinnaker pole.  I 
> bought a whisker pole because it weighs much less than the spinnaker pole and 
> I can store it vertically attached at the mast end.  I don’t think I could 
> maneuver the spinnaker pole in place by myself on the unstable deck of a boat 
> downwind.  I don’t trust my balance plus it is really heavy and unwieldy even 
> on firm ground.  The whisker pole also allows me to set different lengths 
> depending on conditions.  
>  
> Related to that: I read the Forespar recommendations on whisker pole use the 
> other day.  They strongly recommended using a topping lift.  I have not done 
> that although I have one.  It seems like it might affect sail shape as the 
> weight of the pole pulling down on the clew might alter the shape of the 
> leech of the sail.  I will play when I can sail again, but wonder if anyone 
> has thoughts.  Dave
>  
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
>  
> On Mar 29, 2019, at 7:04 PM, dwight veinot via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
>  
> Pretty serious racers there worrying about using a whisker pole longer than J 
> and the associated time penalty and that is really only a consideration on a 
> run. There are so many other reasons to take extra seconds or minutes to 
> complete the course. Just stick with your spin pole use your topping lift and 
> pole the genoa out a little to windward so wing on wing with genoa to weather 
> Always found that fastest on a run and less chance of accidental jibe of the 
> mainsail. Try it if you got a spinn pole onboard
>  
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 7:48 PM David via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> If I were racing in that neck of the woods I would like some clarification of 
> this.   Unrestricted pole length is a major advantage...especially in light 
> airs.  
> 
> Get Outlook for Android
>  
> From: CnC-List  on behalf of Michael Brown via 
> CnC-List 
> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 12:40:21 PM
> 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: Michael Brown
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height
>  
> Not much in the PHRF-LO Handicapper's manual on the topic. It is covered in
> meeting notes from 2008 and 2009.
>  
> WPL penalty – There will no longer be a penalty for oversized Whisker Pole 
> lengths.
>  
> 2009 Spring Meeting.
>  
> https://www.phrf-lo.org/index.php/about-us/meetings/central-council/205-2009-spring-meeting
>  
> It would be nice if there was some definitive statement in the current 
> documentation but I
> do not see any.
>  
>  
> Michael Brown
> Windburn
> C 30-1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 12:45:53 + 
> From: "Hoyt, Mike"  
> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com"  
> 
> 
> Michael 
> 
> Check the PHRF-LO bylaws carefully.  In PHRF-NS the whicker pole is 
> considered to be a spinnaker pole which is limited to J.  You may wish to 
> look in a definitions section if one is available.  I have been involved with 
> handicapping for many years in our region and this is my understanding of how 
> most areas do it.  However I do know there are some areas that have separate 
> limit for whisker pole than for spinnaker pole that is permitted to be longer 
> than J ? I just cannot recall at this time which areas those are 
> 
> Mike 
> Persistence 
> Halifax, NS
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the 

Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Pro – it is lighter
Con – it costs more

Joe
Coquina

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Richard Bush 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 1:46 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Richard Bush 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and 
height

Andy; I liked your article; would you advise pro or con on the cost of using a 
carbon fiber whisker pole? Thanks

Richard
s/v Bushmark4: 1985 C 37 CB: Ohio River, Mile 596
Richard N. Bush
2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine
Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462
502-584-7255


-Original Message-
From: Andrew Burton via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
To: cnc-list mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Andrew Burton mailto:a.burton.sai...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tue, Apr 2, 2019 10:26 am
Subject: Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height
Here's a short piece I wrote on how to rig and set a pole. It really isn't too 
big a chore, if you do it right.
https://www.cruisingworld.com/how/sailing-downwind-set-whisker-pole

Andy

Andrew Burton
139 Tuckerman Ave
Middletown, RI
USA02842

www.burtonsailing.com
http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

On Apr 2, 2019, at 09:33, David Knecht via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
I have to disagree with the recommendation to just use the spinnaker pole.  I 
bought a whisker pole because it weighs much less than the spinnaker pole and I 
can store it vertically attached at the mast end.  I don’t think I could 
maneuver the spinnaker pole in place by myself on the unstable deck of a boat 
downwind.  I don’t trust my balance plus it is really heavy and unwieldy even 
on firm ground.  The whisker pole also allows me to set different lengths 
depending on conditions.

Related to that: I read the Forespar recommendations on whisker pole use the 
other day.  They strongly recommended using a topping lift.  I have not done 
that although I have one.  It seems like it might affect sail shape as the 
weight of the pole pulling down on the clew might alter the shape of the leech 
of the sail.  I will play when I can sail again, but wonder if anyone has 
thoughts.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



On Mar 29, 2019, at 7:04 PM, dwight veinot via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Pretty serious racers there worrying about using a whisker pole longer than J 
and the associated time penalty and that is really only a consideration on a 
run. There are so many other reasons to take extra seconds or minutes to 
complete the course. Just stick with your spin pole use your topping lift and 
pole the genoa out a little to windward so wing on wing with genoa to weather 
Always found that fastest on a run and less chance of accidental jibe of the 
mainsail. Try it if you got a spinn pole onboard

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 7:48 PM David via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
If I were racing in that neck of the woods I would like some clarification of 
this.   Unrestricted pole length is a major advantage...especially in light 
airs.
Get Outlook for Android


From: CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> on behalf 
of Michael Brown via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 12:40:21 PM

To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Michael Brown
Subject: Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height

Not much in the PHRF-LO Handicapper's manual on the topic. It is covered in
meeting notes from 2008 and 2009.

WPL penalty – There will no longer be a penalty for oversized Whisker Pole 
lengths.

2009 Spring Meeting.

https://www.phrf-lo.org/index.php/about-us/meetings/central-council/205-2009-spring-meeting

It would be nice if there was some definitive statement in the current 
documentation but I
do not see any.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 12:45:53 +
From: "Hoyt, Mike" mailto:mike.h...@impgroup.com>>
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>


Michael

Check the PHRF-LO bylaws carefully.  In PHRF-NS the whicker pole is considered 
to be a spinnaker pole which is limited to J.  You may wish to look in a 
definitions section if one is available.  I have been involved with 
handicapping for many years in our region and this is my understanding of how 
most areas do it.  However I do know there are some areas that have separate 
limit for whisker pole than for spinnaker pole that is permitted to be longer 
than J ? I just cannot recall at this time which areas those are

Mike
Persistence
Halifax, NS
___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
--
Sent from 

Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Prop pitch. And handing cc 33 mk1 1976

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

I have a spare Martec RH 16DX14 P-3 eliptec folding  prop

I suspect that may not work.

Mike
Persistence
Halifax, NS

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Della Barba, 
Joe via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 5:25 PM
To: 'cnc-list@cnc-list.com'
Cc: Della Barba, Joe
Subject: Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Prop pitch. And handing cc 33 mk1 1976

In that case --- carry on!
:)

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rodney 
Randow via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 4:14 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Rodney Randow 
Subject: Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL] Re: Prop pitch. And handing cc 33 mk1 1976

The C 33-1 has atomic 4 with 2:1  gear  and V drive.

-- Rod

On 4/2/19 4:07 PM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List wrote:
> There is no way those props will work on a direct drive A4.
>
> Joe
> Coquina
>
> -Original Message-
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rodney 
> Randow via CnC-List
> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 4:06 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: Rodney Randow 
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Prop pitch. And handing cc 33 mk1 1976
>
>   From my C owner manual:
>
> C supplied the C 33-1 Atomic Four with 16 x 10 x 1" R.H. 2-blade
> with a 16 x 10 x 1" R.H. Folding Propeller optional.
>
> -- Rod
>
> C 33-1
>
>
> On 4/2/19 1:19 PM, doug coup via CnC-List wrote:
>> I have recently purchased mk1, with missing prop.  I have seen several other 
>> models but they have different pitches and sizes.  I am looking at Martec 
>> folding props used which I believe were standard.
>>
>> What is the original spec for this Atomic 4 engine or if you have a newer 
>> better option.
>> Why.
>>
>>
>> Doug Coup
>> Renewal by Andersen
>> 847-452-8087
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> ___
>>
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>

___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray