Stus-List Re: Glassing Over Instrument Holes Through Double Bulkheads

[Randal Stafford via CnC-List]

Thanks Dave.  I believe these are the procedures you’re referring to: 
https://www.westsystem.com/wp-content/uploads/Fiberglass-Manual-2015.pdf 


Cheers,
Randy

> On Apr 20, 2021, at 5:03 PM, Dave Godwin via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Randy,
> 
> What Doug said.  I watched that video and that was about the nastiest 
> fiberglass repair job I could imagine.  Since you will have to paint the 
> outside/cockpit side anyway, go ahead and use good fiberglass hole repair 
> procedures (see West System Fiberglass Boat Repair and Maintenance) after 
> which just put something nice over the liner holes. There is no reasonable 
> way to reproduce the liner integrity.
> 
> I’ve done this job and it isn’t hard to do correctly. The only “hard” part is 
> filling, fairing and sanding in order to present a fair surface prior to 
> painting.
> 
> Regards,
> Dave Godwin
> 1982 C 37 - Ronin
> 1998 Mast & Mallet Thomas Point 34 - Katana
> Reedville, VA
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Apr 20, 2021, at 18:25, Doug Mountjoy via CnC-List 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Glass over the outside hole, and hang a picture over the inside. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
>> 
>> Doug Mountjoy
>> Port Orchard YC
>> Port Orchard,  WA
>> Rebecca Leah
>> 1988 LF39 
>> 
>> 
>>  Original message 
>> From: Randal Stafford via CnC-List 
>> Date: 4/20/21 14:39 (GMT-08:00)
>> To: Stus-List 
>> Cc: Randal Stafford 
>> Subject: Stus-List Glassing Over Instrument Holes Through Double Bulkheads
>> 
>> Listers-
>> 
>> Grenadine is getting an instrument system update this year and, as part of 
>> that, I’ll eventually want to glass over previous instrument holes in the 
>> aft cabin wall.
>> 
>> Last night I watched this video https://youtu.be/T4OHQDs8NKk 
>> , which is good, but seems to assume only a 
>> single bulkhead - i.e. the “liner” inside the cabin is not there, or is cut 
>> away (such as in the video) providing access to the inside of the fiberglass 
>> cabin wall.
>> 
>> Does anyone here know how to neatly glass over the hole in both the exterior 
>> wall and the interior liner?  If there’s no good / easy / neat way to do it, 
>> I’ll follow the video above for the exterior wall, then just cover the hole 
>> in the liner with a screwed-on piece of teak.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Randy
>> S/V Grenadine
>> C 30 MK I #79
>> Ken Caryl, CO
>> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
>> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - 
>> Stu
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Glassing Over Instrument Holes Through Double Bulkheads

[Dave Godwin via CnC-List]

Randy,

What Doug said.  I watched that video and that was about the nastiest 
fiberglass repair job I could imagine.  Since you will have to paint the 
outside/cockpit side anyway, go ahead and use good fiberglass hole repair 
procedures (see West System Fiberglass Boat Repair and Maintenance) after which 
just put something nice over the liner holes. There is no reasonable way to 
reproduce the liner integrity.

I’ve done this job and it isn’t hard to do correctly. The only “hard” part is 
filling, fairing and sanding in order to present a fair surface prior to 
painting.

Regards,
Dave Godwin
1982 C 37 - Ronin
1998 Mast & Mallet Thomas Point 34 - Katana
Reedville, VA

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 20, 2021, at 18:25, Doug Mountjoy via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Glass over the outside hole, and hang a picture over the inside. 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
> 
> Doug Mountjoy
> Port Orchard YC
> Port Orchard,  WA
> Rebecca Leah
> 1988 LF39 
> 
> 
>  Original message 
> From: Randal Stafford via CnC-List 
> Date: 4/20/21 14:39 (GMT-08:00)
> To: Stus-List 
> Cc: Randal Stafford 
> Subject: Stus-List Glassing Over Instrument Holes Through Double Bulkheads
> 
> Listers-
> 
> Grenadine is getting an instrument system update this year and, as part of 
> that, I’ll eventually want to glass over previous instrument holes in the aft 
> cabin wall.
> 
> Last night I watched this video https://youtu.be/T4OHQDs8NKk, which is good, 
> but seems to assume only a single bulkhead - i.e. the “liner” inside the 
> cabin is not there, or is cut away (such as in the video) providing access to 
> the inside of the fiberglass cabin wall.
> 
> Does anyone here know how to neatly glass over the hole in both the exterior 
> wall and the interior liner?  If there’s no good / easy / neat way to do it, 
> I’ll follow the video above for the exterior wall, then just cover the hole 
> in the liner with a screwed-on piece of teak.
> 
> Thanks,
> Randy
> S/V Grenadine
> C 30 MK I #79
> Ken Caryl, CO
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Glassing Over Instrument Holes Through Double Bulkheads

[Bob Mann via CnC-List]

I just did this on my 35-1.  I taped a cutout of two layers of corrugated 
cardboard inside the opening, from the inside.  I fiberglassed over the outside 
with 8 layers of epoxied glass.  When setup, I removed the inner-most one layer 
of carboard and did it again.  When setup, I covered both sides with Evercoat 
Formula 27 (sands really nicely).  Next step, paing.

Bob Mann
Mystic

> On 04/20/2021 6:24 PM Doug Mountjoy via CnC-List  
> wrote:
>  
>  
> Glass over the outside hole, and hang a picture over the inside. 
>  
>  
>  
> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
>  
> Doug Mountjoy
> Port Orchard YC
> Port Orchard,  WA
> Rebecca Leah
> 1988 LF39 
>  
>  
>  Original message 
> From: Randal Stafford via CnC-List 
> Date: 4/20/21 14:39 (GMT-08:00)
> To: Stus-List 
> Cc: Randal Stafford 
> Subject: Stus-List Glassing Over Instrument Holes Through Double Bulkheads
>  
> Listers-
>  
> Grenadine is getting an instrument system update this year and, as part 
> of that, I’ll eventually want to glass over previous instrument holes in the 
> aft cabin wall.
>  
> Last night I watched this video  https://youtu.be/T4OHQDs8NKk, which is 
> good, but seems to assume only a single bulkhead - i.e. the “liner” inside 
> the cabin is not there, or is cut away (such as in the video) providing 
> access to the inside of the fiberglass cabin wall.
>  
> Does anyone here know how to neatly glass over the hole in both the 
> exterior wall and the interior liner?  If there’s no good / easy / neat way 
> to do it, I’ll follow the video above for the exterior wall, then just cover 
> the hole in the liner with a screwed-on piece of teak.
>  
> Thanks,
> Randy
> S/V Grenadine
> C 30 MK I #79
> Ken Caryl, CO
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help 
> with the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - Stu
> 
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Glassing Over Instrument Holes Through Double Bulkheads

[Doug Mountjoy via CnC-List]

Glass over the outside hole, and hang a picture over the inside. Sent from my 
T-Mobile 4G LTE DeviceDoug MountjoyPort Orchard YCPort Orchard,  WARebecca 
Leah1988 LF39 
 Original message From: Randal Stafford via CnC-List 
 Date: 4/20/21  14:39  (GMT-08:00) To: Stus-List 
 Cc: Randal Stafford  
Subject: Stus-List Glassing Over Instrument Holes Through Double Bulkheads 
Listers-Grenadine is getting an instrument system update this year and, as part 
of that, I’ll eventually want to glass over previous instrument holes in the 
aft cabin wall.Last night I watched this video https://youtu.be/T4OHQDs8NKk, 
which is good, but seems to assume only a single bulkhead - i.e. the “liner” 
inside the cabin is not there, or is cut away (such as in the video) providing 
access to the inside of the fiberglass cabin wall.Does anyone here know how to 
neatly glass over the hole in both the exterior wall and the interior liner?  
If there’s no good / easy / neat way to do it, I’ll follow the video above for 
the exterior wall, then just cover the hole in the liner with a screwed-on 
piece of teak.Thanks,RandyS/V GrenadineC 30 MK I #79Ken Caryl, COThanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

[David Risch via CnC-List]

Even my $500 Navtec Guy got it wrong.  Charged me again the next season after 
it failed as it was beyond warranty.  Right...


Sent from my Android. Please forgive typos. Thank you.


From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:28:53 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

I have never taken a hydraulic backstay adjuster apart so have no firsthand 
knowledge of whether an adjuster is similar to a tractor hydraulic system or 
not.  Surely the principle is the same.  All I can go by is what I am told by 
marina repair technicians that I trust.  The guys at Toressen Marine, who I and 
many others have a high level of trust in, told me that an adjuster should not 
be repaired by an ordinary hydraulics repair shop.  They are not the same.  
They explained that, during training of technicians, after about the 6th 
rebuild, they trainees get it right.  They had my adjuster for a week and could 
not get the proper seal kit from NavTec anymore, so gave it back.  A tractor 
guy would have put off the shelf seals in that weren't designed for the unit 
and you get what you get.

So, FWIW, as I commented before, be careful where you save money.  This is an 
important and expensive piece of hardware.

Jeff Laman
1981 C "Harmony"
Ludington, Mi


From: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:18 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Della Barba, Joe 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free


Back in the day the local hydraulic shop worked on these and autopilot rams for 
us at “farmer and bulldozer driver” prices, not boat prices. They are not all 
that different than anyone else’s hydraulics.





Joe Della Barba

Coquina


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Glassing Over Instrument Holes Through Double Bulkheads

[Randal Stafford via CnC-List]

Listers-

Grenadine is getting an instrument system update this year and, as part of 
that, I’ll eventually want to glass over previous instrument holes in the aft 
cabin wall.

Last night I watched this video https://youtu.be/T4OHQDs8NKk 
, which is good, but seems to assume only a 
single bulkhead - i.e. the “liner” inside the cabin is not there, or is cut 
away (such as in the video) providing access to the inside of the fiberglass 
cabin wall.

Does anyone here know how to neatly glass over the hole in both the exterior 
wall and the interior liner?  If there’s no good / easy / neat way to do it, 
I’ll follow the video above for the exterior wall, then just cover the hole in 
the liner with a screwed-on piece of teak.

Thanks,
Randy
S/V Grenadine
C 30 MK I #79
Ken Caryl, COThanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: C 34-36R deck repair

[Martin DeYoung via CnC-List]

James,

When I rebuilt Calypso’s deck around the mast collar I used a combo of G10 
(1/4” thick) and layers of glass/epoxy in the places where the halyard blocks 
are located. In general this extended out from the mast collar 18”.  I went 
back to using new balsa core as I moved outward and there were no penetrations 
through the laminate.

Calypso, built by Bruckmann’s crew in 1970/71 originally had plywood out aprox. 
12” then went to balsa.  I found the plywood saturated but still had some 
structural integrity, but not enough to be trusted.
Bruckmann’s also ran un-tinned copper “zip” cord along side the balsa (between 
the glass inner and outer deck laminate) for interior lights.  The zip cord 
made a water runway to extent balsa rot for and aft.

BTW, I ran several multi week “dry the balsa” experiments.  If the balsa 
surface is not substantially exposed to the air, the drying seem to be very 
localized, not extending deeper than ½” into the deck laminate. YMMV.

Martin DeYoung
Calypso
1971 C 43
Seattle/Port Ludlow
(soon to be in Port Townsend’s yard for paint)

From: James Bibb via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:07 AM
To: Chuck S via CnC-List
Cc: James Bibb
Subject: Stus-List C 34-36R deck repair

Chuck and I have been going over deck repair information…thought it’d be best 
to get this stuff back on the site where everyone can reference it.

Chuck, thanks for the valuable feedback…

Balsa core was the deck core material…I’ve had to remove a large portion of the 
deck around the mast hardware locations…original construction didn’t detail the 
through deck penetrations very well.

I’m waiting for the deck to dry before rebuild.   I’ve ordered balsa to go back 
in…however propose to put marine plywood or comparable material at hardware 
mount points and around the mast ring.  Was that your strategy?

James Bibb

C SV Darwin’s folly 1991 34-36R

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  Thanks - Stu

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Stus-List Re: backstay tension?

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

On my 30-1, I use an old vang and a couple of old blocks – tie the blocks 
together with the sheaves on the split part of the wire (have to un-do the 
turnbuckles). Then hook the ‘vang’ to the joint between them and pull away! 
Goes from about 500# per leg to nearly 1000. On my boat all It does is firm up 
the forestay with my tree trunk mast.

 

Gary

 

From: dwight veinot via CnC-List  
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 2:53 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: dwight veinot 
Subject: Stus-List Re: backstay tension?

 

Backstay tension adjuster. If you are a cruiser!”set it and forget it”. If you 
are a handicap racer, “set it and forget it”. There are many more important 
things to pay attention to. Let that one be “you excuse to lose”. 

 

On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 9:20 PM Robert Abbott via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

Any advice/help appreciatedmy 32 has a split backstaySS rod down 
to the split where it is now wire coated to the turnbucklesno 
hydraulic gauge to measure pressureevery year when stepping the mast 
the backstay is attached and I tension the two turnbuckles before any 
after manual tension available...by looking at the mast, feeling the 
forestay, and the backstay,and I use my Loos RT 10 gaugeI know 
meant for the rod rig shrouds and not  to measure tension on each side 
of the plastic coated wire split backstay.   I estimate it to be 1,000 
to 1,100 lbs. the way I am doing it but who knows.

Is there a better way to determine what my at the slip backstay tension 
could be?

Rob Abbott
AZURA
C 32 - #277
Halifax, N.S.

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

-- 

Sent from Gmail Mobile

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costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Alternate to Spartite

[Rod Stright via CnC-List]

Did someone have a similar product to use instead of Spartite?

 

Rod

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: backstay tension?

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

Backstay tension adjuster. If you are a cruiser!”set it and forget it”. If
you are a handicap racer, “set it and forget it”. There are many more
important things to pay attention to. Let that one be “you excuse to lose”.

On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 9:20 PM Robert Abbott via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Any advice/help appreciatedmy 32 has a split backstaySS rod down
> to the split where it is now wire coated to the turnbucklesno
> hydraulic gauge to measure pressureevery year when stepping the mast
> the backstay is attached and I tension the two turnbuckles before any
> after manual tension available...by looking at the mast, feeling the
> forestay, and the backstay,and I use my Loos RT 10 gaugeI know
> meant for the rod rig shrouds and not  to measure tension on each side
> of the plastic coated wire split backstay.   I estimate it to be 1,000
> to 1,100 lbs. the way I am doing it but who knows.
>
> Is there a better way to determine what my at the slip backstay tension
> could be?
>
> Rob Abbott
> AZURA
> C 32 - #277
> Halifax, N.S.
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu
>
-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Me???
I was talking hydraulics, if you can work a turnbuckle in there you may be able 
to tighten up your backstay if the cylinder pops a leak.

Joe

From: Glen Eddie via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 2:04 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman ; Glen Eddie 
Subject: Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon 
to be free

Joe,

Were you talking about the split pully backstay adjuster.

Glen Eddie
Tel:  416-777-5357
Fax:  1-888-812-2557
Torkin Manes LLP
Barristers & Solicitors
This email message, and any attachments, is intended only for the named 
recipient(s) above and may contain content that is privileged, confidential 
and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this 
message in error, please notify the sender and delete this email message. Thank 
you.

From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: April-20-21 10:34 AM
To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman mailto:jlam...@outlook.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon 
to be free

Yes, there are mechanical backstay adjusters available, and I did consider.  
But, I race and need to make adjustments that take a few seconds, not several 
minutes.  Mechanical adjusters that I looked at are basically all thread with 
an integral wrench.

Jeff L.


From: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:21 AM
To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Della Barba, Joe mailto:joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov>>
Subject: Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon 
to be free


Pro Tip: If you get that much slack, you can always add the longest turnbuckle 
you can find to the backstay and have it normally at full length to give you a 
lot of slack to take up. I really like my mechanical adjuster, it seems utterly 
bulletproof. I have no idea if they are still made.



Joe





From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:17 AM
To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman mailto:jlam...@outlook.com>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to 
be free



In my case, the boat was on the hard all winter.  I checked on it in mid-March 
and saw more than the normal leaked oil at the base.  The backstay was not as 
snug as I would have liked so I gave the adjuster a few pulls, backstay 
tightened, and I left.  Two weeks later, oil all over the cockpit and the 
backstay was wildly flopping around with about a 4 or 5 ft sag -- no way it 
would have supported the mast under load.  Mast probably would not come down, 
but the mast would have had to deflect many inches at the top before 
re-engaging the backstay -- not good.  I quickly removed the backstay adjuster, 
got a couple of large turnbuckles on either end of where the adjuster was, and 
ran a line through 3 or 4 times, pulling the backstay tight again.  Later got 
the NavTec turnbuckle from Torresen and that's how it sits for now.  I'll put 
the new SailTec adjuster on in a few days when it warms up and I finish what 
needs to be done before going in the water.



Jeff Laman

1981 C "Harmony"

Ludington, Mi


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Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

[Glen Eddie via CnC-List]

Joe,

Were you talking about the split pully backstay adjuster.

Glen Eddie

Tel:  416-777-5357

Fax:  1-888-812-2557


Torkin Manes LLP
Barristers & Solicitors

This email message, and any attachments, is intended only for the named 
recipient(s) above and may contain content that is privileged, confidential 
and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this 
message in error, please notify the sender and delete this email message. Thank 
you.

From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
Sent: April-20-21 10:34 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon 
to be free

Yes, there are mechanical backstay adjusters available, and I did consider.  
But, I race and need to make adjustments that take a few seconds, not several 
minutes.  Mechanical adjusters that I looked at are basically all thread with 
an integral wrench.

Jeff L.


From: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:21 AM
To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Della Barba, Joe mailto:joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov>>
Subject: Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon 
to be free


Pro Tip: If you get that much slack, you can always add the longest turnbuckle 
you can find to the backstay and have it normally at full length to give you a 
lot of slack to take up. I really like my mechanical adjuster, it seems utterly 
bulletproof. I have no idea if they are still made.



Joe





From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:17 AM
To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman mailto:jlam...@outlook.com>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to 
be free



In my case, the boat was on the hard all winter.  I checked on it in mid-March 
and saw more than the normal leaked oil at the base.  The backstay was not as 
snug as I would have liked so I gave the adjuster a few pulls, backstay 
tightened, and I left.  Two weeks later, oil all over the cockpit and the 
backstay was wildly flopping around with about a 4 or 5 ft sag -- no way it 
would have supported the mast under load.  Mast probably would not come down, 
but the mast would have had to deflect many inches at the top before 
re-engaging the backstay -- not good.  I quickly removed the backstay adjuster, 
got a couple of large turnbuckles on either end of where the adjuster was, and 
ran a line through 3 or 4 times, pulling the backstay tight again.  Later got 
the NavTec turnbuckle from Torresen and that's how it sits for now.  I'll put 
the new SailTec adjuster on in a few days when it warms up and I finish what 
needs to be done before going in the water.



Jeff Laman

1981 C "Harmony"

Ludington, Mi

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Stus-List C 34-36R deck repair

[James Bibb via CnC-List]

Chuck and I have been going over deck repair information…thought it’d be best 
to get this stuff back on the site where everyone can reference it.  

Chuck, thanks for the valuable feedback…

Balsa core was the deck core material…I’ve had to remove a large portion of the 
deck around the mast hardware locations…original construction didn’t detail the 
through deck penetrations very well. 

I’m waiting for the deck to dry before rebuild.   I’ve ordered balsa to go back 
in…however propose to put marine plywood or comparable material at hardware 
mount points and around the mast ring.  Was that your strategy? 

James Bibb

C SV Darwin’s folly 1991 34-36R

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Hydraulic backstay adjuster pressure?

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

Just found this in my Sailtec documentation,

 

Pressure (PSI) Reading   (#) TensionCyl. DiameterCyl. Bore

-08 size matches.6:1.00 psi 1.50"
1.002

-10 size matches 1:1.00 psi 1.75"
1.250

-12 size matches 1:1.30 psi 2.00"
1.500

-17 size matches 1:1.76 psi 2.25"
1.750

-22 size matches 1:2.20 psi 2.75"
2.000

 

So it does look like the -10 is Hydraulic pressure = Tensile #

I learn something every day. I have two  -10 cylinders on a split backstay,
so I guess 1,000# pressure = 2,000 tensile#. 

 

They don't make it easy to find all this stuff.

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 11:07 AM
To: Stus-List
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman
Subject: Stus-List Re: Hydraulic backstay adjuster pressure?

 

Hi All.  Also wanted to comment on the pressure question.  As I noted in my
post about the NavTec - 10 failure, I have been examining all the issues
that I more or less ignored or was happily ignorant of till now.  One item
was to determine the yield and breaking load on my backstay and correlating
backstay shortening to load.  If you do a little geometry and have knowledge
of stress/force/strain/elongation, it is a fairly simple determination (I am
a structural engineer).  Others have provided photos of simple shortening
measure devices, which I now intend to make and install.  If others have
photos, please share!  But, one comment on pressure and force -- the
pressure on the hydraulic backstay is directly related to force.  So, if I
trouble myself to read it, I will pay much more attention to the pressure on
the gauge right in front of my face.  At the moment, I don't recall what I
read -- either NavTec or SailTec, or maybe both, 1000 psi = 1000 lbs force.
The NavTec - 10 has a relief valve set to 4000 lbs.  SailTec - 10 is 4750
lbs.  Others with more knowledge may have more definitive information.  Long
story but I received the wrong SailTec - 10 the first time -- a custom unit
for J105s that has a pressure relief at 3000 lbs.

 

Excellent discussion, btw everybody!

 

Jeff L.

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Mine uses a winch handle and takes maybe 10-30 seconds.
Joe

From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:34 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon 
to be free

Yes, there are mechanical backstay adjusters available, and I did consider.  
But, I race and need to make adjustments that take a few seconds, not several 
minutes.  Mechanical adjusters that I looked at are basically all thread with 
an integral wrench.

Jeff L.
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Yes, there are mechanical backstay adjusters available, and I did consider.  
But, I race and need to make adjustments that take a few seconds, not several 
minutes.  Mechanical adjusters that I looked at are basically all thread with 
an integral wrench.

Jeff L.


From: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:21 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Della Barba, Joe 
Subject: Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon 
to be free


Pro Tip: If you get that much slack, you can always add the longest turnbuckle 
you can find to the backstay and have it normally at full length to give you a 
lot of slack to take up. I really like my mechanical adjuster, it seems utterly 
bulletproof. I have no idea if they are still made.



Joe





From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:17 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to 
be free



In my case, the boat was on the hard all winter.  I checked on it in mid-March 
and saw more than the normal leaked oil at the base.  The backstay was not as 
snug as I would have liked so I gave the adjuster a few pulls, backstay 
tightened, and I left.  Two weeks later, oil all over the cockpit and the 
backstay was wildly flopping around with about a 4 or 5 ft sag -- no way it 
would have supported the mast under load.  Mast probably would not come down, 
but the mast would have had to deflect many inches at the top before 
re-engaging the backstay -- not good.  I quickly removed the backstay adjuster, 
got a couple of large turnbuckles on either end of where the adjuster was, and 
ran a line through 3 or 4 times, pulling the backstay tight again.  Later got 
the NavTec turnbuckle from Torresen and that's how it sits for now.  I'll put 
the new SailTec adjuster on in a few days when it warms up and I finish what 
needs to be done before going in the water.



Jeff Laman

1981 C "Harmony"

Ludington, Mi
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

I have never taken a hydraulic backstay adjuster apart so have no firsthand 
knowledge of whether an adjuster is similar to a tractor hydraulic system or 
not.  Surely the principle is the same.  All I can go by is what I am told by 
marina repair technicians that I trust.  The guys at Toressen Marine, who I and 
many others have a high level of trust in, told me that an adjuster should not 
be repaired by an ordinary hydraulics repair shop.  They are not the same.  
They explained that, during training of technicians, after about the 6th 
rebuild, they trainees get it right.  They had my adjuster for a week and could 
not get the proper seal kit from NavTec anymore, so gave it back.  A tractor 
guy would have put off the shelf seals in that weren't designed for the unit 
and you get what you get.

So, FWIW, as I commented before, be careful where you save money.  This is an 
important and expensive piece of hardware.

Jeff Laman
1981 C "Harmony"
Ludington, Mi


From: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:18 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Della Barba, Joe 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free


Back in the day the local hydraulic shop worked on these and autopilot rams for 
us at “farmer and bulldozer driver” prices, not boat prices. They are not all 
that different than anyone else’s hydraulics.





Joe Della Barba

Coquina


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Pro Tip: If you get that much slack, you can always add the longest turnbuckle 
you can find to the backstay and have it normally at full length to give you a 
lot of slack to take up. I really like my mechanical adjuster, it seems utterly 
bulletproof. I have no idea if they are still made.

Joe


From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:17 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to 
be free

In my case, the boat was on the hard all winter.  I checked on it in mid-March 
and saw more than the normal leaked oil at the base.  The backstay was not as 
snug as I would have liked so I gave the adjuster a few pulls, backstay 
tightened, and I left.  Two weeks later, oil all over the cockpit and the 
backstay was wildly flopping around with about a 4 or 5 ft sag -- no way it 
would have supported the mast under load.  Mast probably would not come down, 
but the mast would have had to deflect many inches at the top before 
re-engaging the backstay -- not good.  I quickly removed the backstay adjuster, 
got a couple of large turnbuckles on either end of where the adjuster was, and 
ran a line through 3 or 4 times, pulling the backstay tight again.  Later got 
the NavTec turnbuckle from Torresen and that's how it sits for now.  I'll put 
the new SailTec adjuster on in a few days when it warms up and I finish what 
needs to be done before going in the water.

Jeff Laman
1981 C "Harmony"
Ludington, Mi
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Back in the day the local hydraulic shop worked on these and autopilot rams for 
us at “farmer and bulldozer driver” prices, not boat prices. They are not all 
that different than anyone else’s hydraulics.


Joe Della Barba
Coquina

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

In my case, the boat was on the hard all winter.  I checked on it in mid-March 
and saw more than the normal leaked oil at the base.  The backstay was not as 
snug as I would have liked so I gave the adjuster a few pulls, backstay 
tightened, and I left.  Two weeks later, oil all over the cockpit and the 
backstay was wildly flopping around with about a 4 or 5 ft sag -- no way it 
would have supported the mast under load.  Mast probably would not come down, 
but the mast would have had to deflect many inches at the top before 
re-engaging the backstay -- not good.  I quickly removed the backstay adjuster, 
got a couple of large turnbuckles on either end of where the adjuster was, and 
ran a line through 3 or 4 times, pulling the backstay tight again.  Later got 
the NavTec turnbuckle from Torresen and that's how it sits for now.  I'll put 
the new SailTec adjuster on in a few days when it warms up and I finish what 
needs to be done before going in the water.

Jeff Laman
1981 C "Harmony"
Ludington, Mi


From: Dennis C. via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:02 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Dennis C. 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

If you're talking about a traditional cylinder/ram style hydraulic adjuster, a 
complete leak of all fluid should not result in the loss of the rig.  The rod 
and piston will simply extend to the maximum and stop.  The piston will be at 
the top of its travel against the plug in the top of the cylinder.  The 
backstay will be floppy but should still hold the mast up.

Been there, done that.  Happened to Touche' during an offshore race at night.  
We rigged a line from the bottom of the backstay through a snatch block on the 
transom tang to a winch to give us some control and peace of mind but it wasn't 
entirely necessary.  We were going downwind in mid 20's at the time.

The most significant negative was Paul  Eugenio, who was steering, got 
hydraulic oil all over his shirt.  We made him leave it in the cockpit when we 
finally docked.  :)

  --
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 8:43 AM Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Sorry,  but I seem to be missing something.  My split hydraulic backstays have 
leaked in the past, to I initially just set the backstay tension using the 
turnbuckle to a light air setting at the dock and put it on my list for future 
repairs.  Now they're fixed ( and yes, more story on that to come).  So what 
are you folks saying when you talk about a failure at sea being a bad outcome?  
Sure, I understand the loss of fluid, but not something that would result in 
loss of the rig.

Would you please explain?

Thanks!

Bruce Whitmore
1994 C 37/40+
"Astralis"
Madeira Beach, FL
(847) 404-5092


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
  Thanks - Stu


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

If you're talking about a traditional cylinder/ram style hydraulic
adjuster, a complete leak of all fluid should not result in the loss of the
rig.  The rod and piston will simply extend to the maximum and stop.  The
piston will be at the top of its travel against the plug in the top of the
cylinder.  The backstay will be floppy but should still hold the mast up.

Been there, done that.  Happened to Touche' during an offshore race at
night.  We rigged a line from the bottom of the backstay through a snatch
block on the transom tang to a winch to give us some control and peace of
mind but it wasn't entirely necessary.  We were going downwind in mid 20's
at the time.

The most significant negative was Paul  Eugenio, who was steering, got
hydraulic oil all over his shirt.  We made him leave it in the cockpit when
we finally docked.  :)

  --
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 8:43 AM Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Sorry,  but I seem to be missing something.  My split hydraulic backstays
> have leaked in the past, to I initially just set the backstay tension using
> the turnbuckle to a light air setting at the dock and put it on my list for
> future repairs.  Now they're fixed ( and yes, more story on that to come).
> So what are you folks saying when you talk about a failure at sea being a
> bad outcome?  Sure, I understand the loss of fluid, but not something that
> would result in loss of the rig.
>
> Would you please explain?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Bruce Whitmore
> 1994 C 37/40+
> "Astralis"
> Madeira Beach, FL
> (847) 404-5092
>
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Navtec Hydraulic backstay adjuster, soon to be free

[Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List]

Sorry,  but I seem to be missing something.  My split hydraulic backstays
have leaked in the past, to I initially just set the backstay tension using
the turnbuckle to a light air setting at the dock and put it on my list for
future repairs.  Now they're fixed ( and yes, more story on that to come).
So what are you folks saying when you talk about a failure at sea being a
bad outcome?  Sure, I understand the loss of fluid, but not something that
would result in loss of the rig.

Would you please explain?

Thanks!

Bruce Whitmore
1994 C 37/40+
"Astralis"
Madeira Beach, FL
(847) 404-5092
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Auto pilot???

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

+ 1 on the Octopus. When I was a Raytheon installed we never used Raytheon 
drives, we used the Octopus drives exclusively. As long as the autopilot 
computer is sized to handle the load it does not care.
Joe
Coquina
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu