Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Stephen Kidd via CnC-List]

Good idea, and it makes sense to check. I'm pretty certain nothing has been
tinkered with, given the consistent patina and materials throughout, but
we've had her all of 4 of her 42 years.

The hull is indeed solid fiberglass with a cored deck. So at least it's not
the scariest of the scary.

I've got to say thanks for the the Windstar blog! It's an incredible
resource and our go-to for getting a sense of how these boats fit together.


On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 8:45 PM Dave S  wrote:

> Another thought, and this may seem like a silly question - has the boat
> been modified in any way?   Any structure removed?
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 18, 2022, at 7:50 PM, Dave S  wrote:
>
> Curious.   If the hull is solid glass or cored and sound I’d tackle a diy
> repair without hesitation, provided you are handy and are either willing to
> learn about the techniques and material involved or have a knowledgeable
> friend who can help.  There are many here who can help identify well
> intentioned bad advice.
> HOWEVER- is this hull balsa cored below the waterline?  One  very nasty
> possible hypothesis is that the keel support structures- transverse
> ‘floors’ (beams) and bulkheads are bonded to the inner skin of a failed
> cored hull.  This (I’d imagine) might cause what you are describing.
> Now that I’ve scared you I’ll say I have no idea how the 25-2’s hull is
> built, but this does fit the description.  Even that could be fixed but it
> might be an involved and complex job, again depending on how the boat is
> built.
>
> Dave 33-2 windstar
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 18, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Stephen Kidd via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> 
> Greetings,
>
> I wanted to give an update on the keel wobble on our 25 MKII. It took a
> while for us to get our ducks and the weather in a row, but it gave us time
> to do a lot of reading and research following the leads provided through
> the list. As our next step in investigating the keel wobble, we tightened
> the bolts and checked the keel with the boat in slings. Torquing the bolts
> went smoothly using a torque wrench, torque multiplier and an extra deep
> socket. Before tightening, we backed them up a little, and they all budged
> with between 100 - 150 ft/lbs of torque on the wrench. We were able to
> torque the keel bolts to 350 ft/lbs, and there was no indication of the
> bolt spinning or washers digging into the glass.
>
> We then had the boat lifted in slings, and the keel continued to flex with
> a moderate push with a foot. At this point, I noticed that the flex wasn't
> between the keel and the hull (that was encouraging!), but it was the
> entire hull flexing. I then climbed aboard and asked the very
> accommodating marina manager to wiggle the keel, which he did with vigor.
> The entire bottom of the bilge visibly flexed. Interestingly to me, the
> keel bolts didn't appear to move relative to the rest of the hull,
> everything was in it together. The hull/keel joint actually seems pretty
> solid, so I am glad that we took this step before dropping the keel.
> The hull flexing is something we should have caught right away, but we
> looked right past it because we assumed it was the hull/keel joint.
>
> Even if the hull/keel joint is off the hook for the wobble, from past
> discussions on this list and elsewhere, I suspect this is not a good
> finding. We have seen cases where people have made significant and
> impressive structural repairs, many of which have been referenced here on
> the list, to increase rigidity. The both of us carefully inspected the
> bilge area for signs of cracking or separation, and we have not identified
> anything obvious (untrained eyes). Thus, we would not know what to fix were
> we to go that route. The marina manager is similarly at a loss. I'm also
> not comfortable not knowing why the hull is visibly flexing. At the same
> time, several sailors at the marina suggested that she's probably fine and
> we should just go sailing and keep an eye on it. As tempting as that is,
> that's beyond our comfort zone.
>
> So, that's the general outcome of the wobbly keel investigation. I do have
> a question: Is this a repair that a reasonable person would be able to take
> on? I'm not sure that person would be me, but I do not want to scrap a boat
> that someone could make good use of. Afterall, she has been an incredible
> boat for us and is undeniably an adorable 25' C
>
> Many thanks,
> Stephen
>
>
Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx

Stus-List Surveyor in the Baltimore/Annapolis Area?

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

A client of mine recently lost their 42' Jefferson motor yacht in a fire.
They are boat shopping again.

 

They have an interest in a President 43 Sundeck that is in the Pasadena, MD
area. From the photos and listing it looks like it could be a decent boat
for their expectations. We will probably be making a day trip up there next
week to look at the boat.

 

Of course, at the cost of one of these puppies, if this progresses to offer
and acceptance, we will need to get a survey and sea trial done.

 

Can anyone recommend a good surveyor in the area? Someone knowledgeable
about turbo diesels (Lehmans in this case) and other systems typical of big
power boats.

 

I'd rather get a survey from someone recommended, rather than use one the
broker suggests. Or perhaps use the broler's surveyor if he is recommended
by someone on the list.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

 

Rick Brass

Imzadi  C 38 mk2 #47

la Belle Aurore  C 25 mk1 #225

Washington, NC

 

Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Dave S via CnC-List]

Another thought, and this may seem like a silly question - has the boat been 
modified in any way?   Any structure removed?


Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 18, 2022, at 7:50 PM, Dave S  wrote:
> 
> Curious.   If the hull is solid glass or cored and sound I’d tackle a diy 
> repair without hesitation, provided you are handy and are either willing to 
> learn about the techniques and material involved or have a knowledgeable 
> friend who can help.  There are many here who can help identify well 
> intentioned bad advice.
> HOWEVER- is this hull balsa cored below the waterline?  One  very nasty 
> possible hypothesis is that the keel support structures- transverse ‘floors’ 
> (beams) and bulkheads are bonded to the inner skin of a failed cored hull.  
> This (I’d imagine) might cause what you are describing.  
> Now that I’ve scared you I’ll say I have no idea how the 25-2’s hull is 
> built, but this does fit the description.  Even that could be fixed but it 
> might be an involved and complex job, again depending on how the boat is 
> built.  
> 
> Dave 33-2 windstar 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Mar 18, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Stephen Kidd via CnC-List 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> Greetings, 
>> 
>> I wanted to give an update on the keel wobble on our 25 MKII. It took a 
>> while for us to get our ducks and the weather in a row, but it gave us time 
>> to do a lot of reading and research following the leads provided through the 
>> list. As our next step in investigating the keel wobble, we tightened the 
>> bolts and checked the keel with the boat in slings. Torquing the bolts went 
>> smoothly using a torque wrench, torque multiplier and an extra deep socket. 
>> Before tightening, we backed them up a little, and they all budged with 
>> between 100 - 150 ft/lbs of torque on the wrench. We were able to torque the 
>> keel bolts to 350 ft/lbs, and there was no indication of the bolt spinning 
>> or washers digging into the glass. 
>> 
>> We then had the boat lifted in slings, and the keel continued to flex with a 
>> moderate push with a foot. At this point, I noticed that the flex wasn't 
>> between the keel and the hull (that was encouraging!), but it was the entire 
>> hull flexing. I then climbed aboard and asked the very accommodating marina 
>> manager to wiggle the keel, which he did with vigor. The entire bottom of 
>> the bilge visibly flexed. Interestingly to me, the keel bolts didn't appear 
>> to move relative to the rest of the hull, everything was in it together. The 
>> hull/keel joint actually seems pretty solid, so I am glad that we took this 
>> step before dropping the keel. The hull flexing is something we should have 
>> caught right away, but we looked right past it because we assumed it was the 
>> hull/keel joint. 
>> 
>> Even if the hull/keel joint is off the hook for the wobble, from past 
>> discussions on this list and elsewhere, I suspect this is not a good 
>> finding. We have seen cases where people have made significant and 
>> impressive structural repairs, many of which have been referenced here on 
>> the list, to increase rigidity. The both of us carefully inspected the bilge 
>> area for signs of cracking or separation, and we have not identified 
>> anything obvious (untrained eyes). Thus, we would not know what to fix were 
>> we to go that route. The marina manager is similarly at a loss. I'm also not 
>> comfortable not knowing why the hull is visibly flexing. At the same time, 
>> several sailors at the marina suggested that she's probably fine and we 
>> should just go sailing and keep an eye on it. As tempting as that is, that's 
>> beyond our comfort zone. 
>> 
>> So, that's the general outcome of the wobbly keel investigation. I do have a 
>> question: Is this a repair that a reasonable person would be able to take 
>> on? I'm not sure that person would be me, but I do not want to scrap a boat 
>> that someone could make good use of. Afterall, she has been an incredible 
>> boat for us and is undeniably an adorable 25' C 
>> 
>> Many thanks,
>> Stephen
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>> On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 3:32 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>> Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are 
>> having with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter 
>> projects and were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat 
>> was on the travel lift, a little bit laterally. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel bolts. Here are some 
>> observations:
>> 
>> 1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation 
>> when lifted from the stands.
>> 
>> 2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak. 
>> 
>> 3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on 
>> internet searches.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill 

Stus-List Re: 2022 Rendezvous

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

I’m in, though I probably can’t bring the boat this time.

 

But, hey, that just leaves more money to buy North Carolina rum as door prizes.

 

 

Rick Brass

Imzadi  C 38 mk2 #47

la Belle Aurore  C 25 mk1 #225

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 2:31 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: j...@dellabarba.com
Subject: Stus-List 2022 Rendezvous

 

Too soon?

We really had fun at the last ones!

 

 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA

 

 

Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Dave S via CnC-List]

Curious.   If the hull is solid glass or cored and sound I’d tackle a diy 
repair without hesitation, provided you are handy and are either willing to 
learn about the techniques and material involved or have a knowledgeable friend 
who can help.  There are many here who can help identify well intentioned bad 
advice.
HOWEVER- is this hull balsa cored below the waterline?  One  very nasty 
possible hypothesis is that the keel support structures- transverse ‘floors’ 
(beams) and bulkheads are bonded to the inner skin of a failed cored hull.  
This (I’d imagine) might cause what you are describing.  
Now that I’ve scared you I’ll say I have no idea how the 25-2’s hull is built, 
but this does fit the description.  Even that could be fixed but it might be an 
involved and complex job, again depending on how the boat is built.  

Dave 33-2 windstar 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 18, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Stephen Kidd via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Greetings, 
> 
> I wanted to give an update on the keel wobble on our 25 MKII. It took a while 
> for us to get our ducks and the weather in a row, but it gave us time to do a 
> lot of reading and research following the leads provided through the list. As 
> our next step in investigating the keel wobble, we tightened the bolts and 
> checked the keel with the boat in slings. Torquing the bolts went smoothly 
> using a torque wrench, torque multiplier and an extra deep socket. Before 
> tightening, we backed them up a little, and they all budged with between 100 
> - 150 ft/lbs of torque on the wrench. We were able to torque the keel bolts 
> to 350 ft/lbs, and there was no indication of the bolt spinning or washers 
> digging into the glass. 
> 
> We then had the boat lifted in slings, and the keel continued to flex with a 
> moderate push with a foot. At this point, I noticed that the flex wasn't 
> between the keel and the hull (that was encouraging!), but it was the entire 
> hull flexing. I then climbed aboard and asked the very accommodating marina 
> manager to wiggle the keel, which he did with vigor. The entire bottom of the 
> bilge visibly flexed. Interestingly to me, the keel bolts didn't appear to 
> move relative to the rest of the hull, everything was in it together. The 
> hull/keel joint actually seems pretty solid, so I am glad that we took this 
> step before dropping the keel. The hull flexing is something we should have 
> caught right away, but we looked right past it because we assumed it was the 
> hull/keel joint. 
> 
> Even if the hull/keel joint is off the hook for the wobble, from past 
> discussions on this list and elsewhere, I suspect this is not a good finding. 
> We have seen cases where people have made significant and impressive 
> structural repairs, many of which have been referenced here on the list, to 
> increase rigidity. The both of us carefully inspected the bilge area for 
> signs of cracking or separation, and we have not identified anything obvious 
> (untrained eyes). Thus, we would not know what to fix were we to go that 
> route. The marina manager is similarly at a loss. I'm also not comfortable 
> not knowing why the hull is visibly flexing. At the same time, several 
> sailors at the marina suggested that she's probably fine and we should just 
> go sailing and keep an eye on it. As tempting as that is, that's beyond our 
> comfort zone. 
> 
> So, that's the general outcome of the wobbly keel investigation. I do have a 
> question: Is this a repair that a reasonable person would be able to take on? 
> I'm not sure that person would be me, but I do not want to scrap a boat that 
> someone could make good use of. Afterall, she has been an incredible boat for 
> us and is undeniably an adorable 25' C 
> 
> Many thanks,
> Stephen
> 
> 
>  
> 
>> On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 3:32 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List 
>>  wrote:
>> 
> Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are 
> having with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter 
> projects and were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat 
> was on the travel lift, a little bit laterally. 
> 
>  
> 
> I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel bolts. Here are some 
> observations:
> 
> 1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation when 
> lifted from the stands.
> 
> 2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak. 
> 
> 3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on 
> internet searches.
> 
>  
> 
> Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?), 
> fair, and paint, or is this beyond a "smile" fix? 
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Stephen
> 
> 
> 
> Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx
Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Stephen Kidd via CnC-List]

Greetings,

I wanted to give an update on the keel wobble on our 25 MKII. It took a
while for us to get our ducks and the weather in a row, but it gave us time
to do a lot of reading and research following the leads provided through
the list. As our next step in investigating the keel wobble, we tightened
the bolts and checked the keel with the boat in slings. Torquing the bolts
went smoothly using a torque wrench, torque multiplier and an extra deep
socket. Before tightening, we backed them up a little, and they all budged
with between 100 - 150 ft/lbs of torque on the wrench. We were able to
torque the keel bolts to 350 ft/lbs, and there was no indication of the
bolt spinning or washers digging into the glass.

We then had the boat lifted in slings, and the keel continued to flex with
a moderate push with a foot. At this point, I noticed that the flex wasn't
between the keel and the hull (that was encouraging!), but it was the
entire hull flexing. I then climbed aboard and asked the very
accommodating marina manager to wiggle the keel, which he did with vigor.
The entire bottom of the bilge visibly flexed. Interestingly to me, the
keel bolts didn't appear to move relative to the rest of the hull,
everything was in it together. The hull/keel joint actually seems pretty
solid, so I am glad that we took this step before dropping the keel.
The hull flexing is something we should have caught right away, but we
looked right past it because we assumed it was the hull/keel joint.

Even if the hull/keel joint is off the hook for the wobble, from past
discussions on this list and elsewhere, I suspect this is not a good
finding. We have seen cases where people have made significant and
impressive structural repairs, many of which have been referenced here on
the list, to increase rigidity. The both of us carefully inspected the
bilge area for signs of cracking or separation, and we have not identified
anything obvious (untrained eyes). Thus, we would not know what to fix were
we to go that route. The marina manager is similarly at a loss. I'm also
not comfortable not knowing why the hull is visibly flexing. At the same
time, several sailors at the marina suggested that she's probably fine and
we should just go sailing and keep an eye on it. As tempting as that is,
that's beyond our comfort zone.

So, that's the general outcome of the wobbly keel investigation. I do have
a question: Is this a repair that a reasonable person would be able to take
on? I'm not sure that person would be me, but I do not want to scrap a boat
that someone could make good use of. Afterall, she has been an incredible
boat for us and is undeniably an adorable 25' C

Many thanks,
Stephen




 On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 3:32 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List <
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

>>> Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are
 having with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter
 projects and were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat
 was on the travel lift, a little bit laterally.



 I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel bolts
 . Here are some
 observations:

 1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation
 when lifted from the stands.

 2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak.

 3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on
 internet searches.



 Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?),
 fair, and paint, or is this beyond a "smile" fix?



 Thanks!

 Stephen



Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx

Stus-List Re: While we wait now IOR broach issues

[Richard Bush via CnC-List]

 Rob; your description of the design changes certainly explains why there was 
such a marked difference in the 1970s era boats and the 1980s boats; I always 
thought the "pinched end" looked somehow "yacht-ier" (if that's a term); does 
the narrow stern make, or contribute to.. the instability you mentioned?
Thanks!
 
Richards/v Bushmark4: 1985 C 37 CB; Ohio River, Mile 596:
 
Richard N. Bush Law Offices 
2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine 
Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462 
502-584-7255 
 
-Original Message-
From: Robert Mazza via CnC-List 
To: Martin DeYoung 
Cc: Stus-List ; Robert Mazza 
Sent: Fri, Mar 18, 2022 11:49 am
Subject: Stus-List Re: While we wait now IOR broach issues

Hi Martin,
The C designs under the CCA rule such as the 43s and the 35s for instance, 
did not rate well under the IOR rule, especially after Peterson's Gambare was 
launched in 1973 and defined what the IOR shape was going to be. As you say, 
these differences included pinched ends, but also wider beams and reduced 
stability.  Add to that the left over CCA elements in the Sail Area 
calculations that only counted 85% of the fore triangle and accepted 150% 
overlaps without penalty. This perpetuated the use of masthead rigs with large 
fore triangles and ribbon mains and enormous spinnakers, sometimes with 
overlength poles. Large spinnakers combined with reduced stability in high 
winds put a lot of load on the rudder and created some white knuckle steering 
as you continually "bounced" the rudder off stall! Exciting days!
Rob
On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 6:56 PM Martin DeYoung  
wrote:

Matt and Rob, It sounds like the design evolution from the 1970 43’s to the 
more IOR based 1975/76 42’s the boats lost a bit of reliability downwind.  Was 
it mostly the IOR rewarding max beam more forward and a pinched in stern, a 
increase in sail area with a reduction on ballast (SA/Displ.), or a little of 
both? IIRC the 1970 43 hull design included something called a “high prismatic” 
ratio. Maybe the swept back keel design makes it more forgiving when pushed 
hard off the wind. It also has a fuller hull shape aft compared to later IOR 
designs like the C 39. So Rob, what I’m asking is for something like a short 
study/discussion similar to your “Good Old Boat” magazine Design Comparisons 
articles.  The current issue’s Design Comparison has some good CCA vs IOR 
discussion but it seems the 1970 43s and 1976 42s are all IOR with no CCA 
influence. Martin DeYoungCalypso1971 C 43Port Ludlow/Seattle From: Robert 
Mazza via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 12:01 PM
To: Matthew
Cc: Stus-List; Robert Mazza
Subject: Stus-List Re: While we wait for spring So, what you are saying Matt, 
since I was the one steering when we went into that broach on Burlington Bay, 
that it wasn't my fault! Thank you for that reassurance 40 years after the 
fact. ;-)  However, all those masthead rigged IOR boats were a handful off the 
wind. However, I remember pegging the speedo at 20 knots onMarauder with the #2 
hoisted on the pole in over 30 knots of breeze during the middle distance race 
in Canada's Cup. The bow wave was breaking at the chainplates. I'd attach a 
photo taken of the crew at that point but know how that gets held up for 
approval.  Rob  
Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  ThankxPlease trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx

Stus-List Re: While we wait now IOR broach issues

[Robert Mazza via CnC-List]

Hi Martin,

The C designs under the CCA rule such as the 43s and the 35s for
instance, did not rate well under the IOR rule, especially after Peterson's
*Gambare* was launched in 1973 and defined what the IOR shape was going to
be. As you say, these differences included pinched ends, but also wider
beams and reduced stability.  Add to that the left over CCA elements in the
Sail Area calculations that only counted 85% of the fore triangle and
accepted 150% overlaps without penalty. This perpetuated the use of
masthead rigs with large fore triangles and ribbon mains and enormous
spinnakers, sometimes with overlength poles. Large spinnakers combined with
reduced stability in high winds put a lot of load on the rudder and created
some white knuckle steering as you continually "bounced" the rudder off
stall! Exciting days!

Rob

On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 6:56 PM Martin DeYoung 
wrote:

> Matt and Rob,
>
>
>
> It sounds like the design evolution from the 1970 43’s to the more IOR
> based 1975/76 42’s the boats lost a bit of reliability downwind.  Was it
> mostly the IOR rewarding max beam more forward and a pinched in stern, a
> increase in sail area with a reduction on ballast (SA/Displ.), or a little
> of both?
>
>
>
> IIRC the 1970 43 hull design included something called a “high prismatic”
> ratio. Maybe the swept back keel design makes it more forgiving when pushed
> hard off the wind. It also has a fuller hull shape aft compared to later
> IOR designs like the C 39.
>
>
>
> So Rob, what I’m asking is for something like a short study/discussion
> similar to your “Good Old Boat” magazine Design Comparisons articles.  The
> current issue’s Design Comparison has some good CCA vs IOR discussion but
> it seems the 1970 43s and 1976 42s are all IOR with no CCA influence.
>
>
>
> Martin DeYoung
>
> Calypso
>
> 1971 C 43
>
> Port Ludlow/Seattle
>
>
>
> *From: *Robert Mazza via CnC-List 
> *Sent: *Thursday, March 17, 2022 12:01 PM
> *To: *Matthew 
> *Cc: *Stus-List ; Robert Mazza
> 
> *Subject: *Stus-List Re: While we wait for spring
>
>
>
> So, what you are saying Matt, since I was the one steering when we went
> into that broach on Burlington Bay, that it wasn't my fault! Thank you for
> that reassurance 40 years after the fact. ;-)
>
>
>
> However, all those masthead rigged IOR boats were a handful off the wind.
> However, I remember pegging the speedo at 20 knots on *Marauder* with the
> #2 hoisted on the pole in over 30 knots of breeze during the middle
> distance race in Canada's Cup. The bow wave was breaking at the
> chainplates. I'd attach a photo taken of the crew at that point but know
> how that gets held up for approval.
>
>
>
> Rob
>
>
>
>
>
Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx