Stus-List Re: Keel wobble

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

Hah!  I love it!

From: Don Kern via CnC-List 
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 4:39 PM
To: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
Cc: Don Kern 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Keel wobble

Jeff

I guess you have the Knack  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8vHhgh6oM0

Don Kern
Fireball, C Mk2
Bristol, RI
Aerospace Eng.

On 3/20/2022 10:52 AM, Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List wrote:
I couldn't let this note pass as I believe, as an engineer myself, there is 
some misunderstanding presented regarding the differences between engineers, 
architects, and trades and a confusion of terminology.  There are of course 
superstars and incompetents in every professional field.  But, generally, the 
architect (or scientist, take your pick) is the dreamer, the engineer figures 
out how to make the dream a reality (often with a high degree of creativity -- 
another misunderstanding about engineers, that they are dull and uncreative...) 
, and the trades (builders) implement the engineer's instructions.  A good, 
experienced engineer will have spent time in the trades, will be able to build 
anything she/he designs, and understands the theory, the stresses, the loads, 
etc. of whatever is built.  Engineer's do not just draw lines on paper.  That's 
a drafter, not an engineer.  If a thorough evaluation of a structure's 
condition is desired, and engineer is the best qualified, by far.

Jeff Laman
81 C
"Harmony"
Ludington, MI


From: CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List 

Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 8:37 PM
To: Stus-List ; 
stephenk...@gmail.com 

Cc: CHARLES SCHEAFFER 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Keel wobble

First point:  No offense to professional naval architects and surveyors, but 
I'd prefer a good boat builder look at the boat rather than  an engineer.  
Engineers are dreamers and they draw lines on paper.  Builders know how to 
build the engineer's dream and how a boat and keel should behave and how to fix 
it and what it will cost.  Yes, I'd rather have Bruckman's opinion than 
Cuthbertson.  The builder made all those engineer's dreams, all those "lines on 
paper", into boats and come to life.

Second point:  Maybe the 25 repair costs more than she's worth.  Buy a better 
and bigger C:  The market is full of low priced C boats.  There are many 
seaworthy C on the market for sale.  Many 27's, 30's, 32's, 34's, 35's, etc. 
 One of my favorites is the 27 MkV which has a decent interior space and can be 
trailored home for winter storage.

Chuck Scheaffer, Resolute 1989 C 34R, Annapolis


On 03/19/2022 6:22 PM cenelson--- via CnC-List 
 wrote:


1+ to recommendations for a serious evaluation of this issue by someone who 
really knows boats—naval engineer, architect, whatever, unless of course your 
sailing venue (current and future) is inshore in reasonable temperature waters 
and perhaps within easy reach of rescue and that you require all on board to 
wear PFDs all the time, etc.

Like most on this list, I am game to tackle most any boat repair, upgrade, 
modification, etc. However, and often at significant cost, I pay a professional 
to do jobs that are either beyond my wheelhouse or would require so much prep 
and research that it would take forever(allowing for amateur mistakes and 
redoing certain jobs when the first attempt goes ‘awry’ for one reason or 
another).

For any repair or upgrade that might send the boat to the bottom if it went 
awry (standing rigging replacement, hull deck joint refurbishment, centerboard 
pennant replacement, stuffing box issues, cutlass bearing replacement, etc.) I 
use a pro.

Of course with a ‘well found’ boat like C, there is seldom an issue with a 
design flaw at the seaworthy level—in fact I am confident that my boat design, 
whatever the details, resulted in a boat that is ‘smarter’ than her skipper and 
she will only permit me to screw things up but so far before her design saves 
my a— once again!

Most boat issues really aren’t ‘rocket science’ and are amenable to reasonable 
DIY fixes. IMHO, this keel wobble issue probably requires a nautical ‘rocket 
scientist’ (naval engineer, architect, etc. to have a look!

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
1985 C XL/kcb
Sent from the all new AOL app for 

Stus-List Re: Keel wobble

[Don Kern via CnC-List]

Jeff

I guess you have the Knack https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8vHhgh6oM0

Don Kern
/Fireball/, C Mk2
Bristol, RI
Aerospace Eng.

On 3/20/2022 10:52 AM, Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List wrote:
I couldn't let this note pass as I believe, as an engineer myself, 
there is some misunderstanding presented regarding the differences 
between engineers, architects, and trades and a confusion of 
terminology.  There are of course superstars and incompetents in every 
professional field.  But, generally, the architect (or scientist, take 
your pick) is the dreamer, the engineer figures out how to make the 
dream a reality (often with a high degree of creativity -- another 
misunderstanding about engineers, that they are dull and 
uncreative...) , and the trades (builders) implement the engineer's 
instructions.  A good, experienced engineer will have spent time in 
the trades, will be able to build anything she/he designs, and 
understands the theory, the stresses, the loads, etc. of whatever is 
built. Engineer's do not just draw lines on paper.  That's a drafter, 
not an engineer.  If a thorough evaluation of a structure's condition 
is desired, and engineer is the best qualified, by far.


Jeff Laman
81 C
"Harmony"
Ludington, MI


*From:* CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List 
*Sent:* Saturday, March 19, 2022 8:37 PM
*To:* Stus-List ; stephenk...@gmail.com 


*Cc:* CHARLES SCHEAFFER 
*Subject:* Stus-List Re: Keel wobble
First point: No offense to professional naval architects and 
surveyors, but I'd prefer a good boat *builder* look at the boat 
rather than  an engineer.  Engineers are dreamers and they draw lines 
on paper.  Builders know how to build the engineer's dream and how a 
boat and keel should behave and how to fix it and what it will cost.  
Yes, I'd rather have Bruckman's opinion than Cuthbertson.  The builder 
made all those engineer's dreams, all those "lines on paper", into 
boats and come to life.


Second point: Maybe the 25 repair costs more than she's worth.  Buy a 
better and bigger C:  The market is full of low priced C boats. 
There are many seaworthy C on the market for sale.  Many 27's, 
30's, 32's, 34's, 35's, etc.  One of my favorites is the 27 MkV which 
has a decent interior space and can be trailored home for winter storage.


Chuck Scheaffer, Resolute 1989 C 34R, Annapolis


On 03/19/2022 6:22 PM cenelson--- via CnC-List 
 wrote:



1+ to recommendations for a serious evaluation of this issue by 
someone who really knows boats—naval engineer, architect, whatever, 
unless of course your sailing venue (current and future) is inshore 
in reasonable temperature waters and perhaps within easy reach of 
rescue and that you require all on board to wear PFDs all the time, etc.


Like most on this list, I am game to tackle most any boat repair, 
upgrade, modification, etc. However, and often at significant cost, I 
pay a professional to do jobs that are either beyond my wheelhouse or 
would require so much prep and research that it would take 
forever(allowing for amateur mistakes and redoing certain jobs when 
the first attempt goes ‘awry’ for one reason or another).


For any repair or upgrade that might send the boat to the bottom if 
it went awry (standing rigging replacement, hull deck joint 
refurbishment, centerboard pennant replacement, stuffing box issues, 
cutlass bearing replacement, etc.) I use a pro.


Of course with a ‘well found’ boat like C, there is seldom an 
issue with a design flaw at the seaworthy level—in fact I am 
confident that my boat design, whatever the details, resulted in a 
boat that is ‘smarter’ than her skipper and she will only permit me 
to screw things up but so far before her design saves my a— once again!


Most boat issues really aren’t ‘rocket science’ and are amenable to 
reasonable DIY fixes. IMHO, this keel wobble issue probably requires 
a nautical ‘rocket scientist’ (naval engineer, architect, etc. to 
have a look!


Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
1985 C XL/kcb
Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS 
 

Stus-List Re: Keel wobble

[Matthew via CnC-List]

I didn't intend to start a controversy about the most appropriate type of
expert, but I meant what I said.  If it were my boat, I'd want an engineer
to have a look.  I agree with Jeff's assessment below.

 

From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List  
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 10:53 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Keel wobble

 

I couldn't let this note pass as I believe, as an engineer myself, there is
some misunderstanding presented regarding the differences between engineers,
architects, and trades and a confusion of terminology.  There are of course
superstars and incompetents in every professional field.  But, generally,
the architect (or scientist, take your pick) is the dreamer, the engineer
figures out how to make the dream a reality (often with a high degree of
creativity -- another misunderstanding about engineers, that they are dull
and uncreative...) , and the trades (builders) implement the engineer's
instructions.  A good, experienced engineer will have spent time in the
trades, will be able to build anything she/he designs, and understands the
theory, the stresses, the loads, etc. of whatever is built.  Engineer's do
not just draw lines on paper.  That's a drafter, not an engineer.  If a
thorough evaluation of a structure's condition is desired, and engineer is
the best qualified, by far.

 

Jeff Laman

81 C

"Harmony"

Ludington, MI

 

  _  

Stus-List Re: Keel wobble

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

I couldn't let this note pass as I believe, as an engineer myself, there is 
some misunderstanding presented regarding the differences between engineers, 
architects, and trades and a confusion of terminology.  There are of course 
superstars and incompetents in every professional field.  But, generally, the 
architect (or scientist, take your pick) is the dreamer, the engineer figures 
out how to make the dream a reality (often with a high degree of creativity -- 
another misunderstanding about engineers, that they are dull and uncreative...) 
, and the trades (builders) implement the engineer's instructions.  A good, 
experienced engineer will have spent time in the trades, will be able to build 
anything she/he designs, and understands the theory, the stresses, the loads, 
etc. of whatever is built.  Engineer's do not just draw lines on paper.  That's 
a drafter, not an engineer.  If a thorough evaluation of a structure's 
condition is desired, and engineer is the best qualified, by far.

Jeff Laman
81 C
"Harmony"
Ludington, MI


From: CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List 
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 8:37 PM
To: Stus-List ; stephenk...@gmail.com 

Cc: CHARLES SCHEAFFER 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Keel wobble

First point:  No offense to professional naval architects and surveyors, but 
I'd prefer a good boat builder look at the boat rather than  an engineer.  
Engineers are dreamers and they draw lines on paper.  Builders know how to 
build the engineer's dream and how a boat and keel should behave and how to fix 
it and what it will cost.  Yes, I'd rather have Bruckman's opinion than 
Cuthbertson.  The builder made all those engineer's dreams, all those "lines on 
paper", into boats and come to life.

Second point:  Maybe the 25 repair costs more than she's worth.  Buy a better 
and bigger C:  The market is full of low priced C boats.  There are many 
seaworthy C on the market for sale.  Many 27's, 30's, 32's, 34's, 35's, etc. 
 One of my favorites is the 27 MkV which has a decent interior space and can be 
trailored home for winter storage.

Chuck Scheaffer, Resolute 1989 C 34R, Annapolis


On 03/19/2022 6:22 PM cenelson--- via CnC-List  wrote:


1+ to recommendations for a serious evaluation of this issue by someone who 
really knows boats—naval engineer, architect, whatever, unless of course your 
sailing venue (current and future) is inshore in reasonable temperature waters 
and perhaps within easy reach of rescue and that you require all on board to 
wear PFDs all the time, etc.

Like most on this list, I am game to tackle most any boat repair, upgrade, 
modification, etc. However, and often at significant cost, I pay a professional 
to do jobs that are either beyond my wheelhouse or would require so much prep 
and research that it would take forever(allowing for amateur mistakes and 
redoing certain jobs when the first attempt goes ‘awry’ for one reason or 
another).

For any repair or upgrade that might send the boat to the bottom if it went 
awry (standing rigging replacement, hull deck joint refurbishment, centerboard 
pennant replacement, stuffing box issues, cutlass bearing replacement, etc.) I 
use a pro.

Of course with a ‘well found’ boat like C, there is seldom an issue with a 
design flaw at the seaworthy level—in fact I am confident that my boat design, 
whatever the details, resulted in a boat that is ‘smarter’ than her skipper and 
she will only permit me to screw things up but so far before her design saves 
my a— once again!

Most boat issues really aren’t ‘rocket science’ and are amenable to reasonable 
DIY fixes. IMHO, this keel wobble issue probably requires a nautical ‘rocket 
scientist’ (naval engineer, architect, etc. to have a look!

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
1985 C XL/kcb
Sent from the all new AOL app for 
iOS

Stus-List Re: Teak Handrail install

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List]

Hey Bill,
I am just learning about these threaded inserts and heli-coils.  Can you share 
what you learned from using both?

Chuck S



> On 03/19/2022 11:16 PM Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I did that about 15 years ago, I used brass inserts epoxied into the 
> outside rails.
> 
> Then later I did the sliding hatch cover by epoxying  SS Helicoils into 
> the teak.
> 
>  
> 
> Bill Coleman
> 
> Entrada, Erie, PA
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
> Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 9:37 PM
> To: CNC boat owners, cnc-list
> Cc: CHARLES SCHEAFFER
> Subject: Stus-List Teak Handrail install
> 
> 
> Curious if anyone else tried this?
> 
>  
> 
> My cabin top handrails are bolted to a matching set in the cabin ceiling. 
>  They were throughbolted to each other using long bolts and nuts and the 
> holes bunged.  I removed them to fix leaks many years ago and want to install 
> them now so I can simply remove the screws from inside and remove both for a 
> winter retouch.
> 
>  
> 
> They were originally through bolted together, the outside cabintop 
> handrails had 3 1/2" long 10-24 screws and the cabin ceiling handrails had 
> nuts holding it all together, both fasteners had teak bungs over the 
> fasteners.
> 
>  
> 
> My plan is to install threaded inserts into the outside handrails and use 
> stainless 10-24 screws from the inside ones to hold them together.  My plan 
> is to bung the outer handrails and leave out bungs on the inner set, so I can 
> remove the the screws from inside, each winter.  I've already overbored and 
> redrilled and countersunk the deck holes, and will use butyl tape for 
> bedding.  This should provide a way to remove the long screws from inside 
> without removing the bungs on the outside handrails.
> 
>  
> 
> https://www.mcmaster.com/90016A011/
> 
>  
> 
> Chuck Scheaffer Resolute 1989 C 34R Annapolis
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
>