Stus-List Re: Runners/check-stays
Keep them out of your way and if you are on the helm keep them out of your crews way as much as possible. Cruising/club handicap racing boats should not have them. Big mistake C design tem On Thu, Aug 18, 2022 at 1:42 PM Charlie Nelson via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > Hello all; > > My C 36 XL/kcb was delivered with the runners/check-stays run to the aft > rail just about the location of the original headsail winches. They are > rigged with a 4:1 purchase and are released/tightened depending on what > tack we are on. Downwind they are unshackled and pulled forward. > > I removed the baby stay and its purchase/track to save wear and tear on > the headsail during tacks so my boat is slightly modified from its factory > settings. I do have and use a hydraulic backstay adjuster and always race > with a roller furling headsail. > > I just had all the standing rigging replaced after 27 years of mostly PHRF > racing in the lighter airs of the Pamlico Sound/Neuse River in NC. With a > PHRF rating of 120 I am usually competitive with the fleet against similar > sized boats sailed reasonably well--which I manage to do most of the time. > > My question for this group, especially those with runners/check-stays > rigged, is two fold: > > 1. Given their aft location on the quarters, the angle they make with the > mast is mostly aft--I'd guess about 75 degrees from perpendicular to the > mast, or maybe 165 degrees off the bow. At that angle and purchase, they > certainly have a minor effect on pulling the mast to weather upwind, which > I understand is their main purpose (although they may also help prevent > mast pumping in serious chop). Question #1 is do I really need them as > currently set-up? > > 2. If the answer to question #1 is yes, my next question #2 is should I > move them forward so they have a better angle keeping the mast to windward > and perhaps increase their purchase? I know from these groups that some run > their runners/check-stays to winches to put some serious tension on them at > the expense of more trimming, etc. > > Before I do a sailing test with and without them, thoughts from the lists > are welcome. > > BTW, my mast is a relatively bendy Off-Shore spar--hardly a telephone > pole--so it can be bent with the hydraulic backstay adjuster. > > Thanks, > > Charlie Nelson > 1995 C 36 XL/kcb > Water Phantom > > > > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile
Stus-List Re: Runners/check-stays
My mast has 3 spreaders like yours but the runner tails were not rigged to run to any winches on my XL. Actually the main tail of the entire combination (runners/check stays) has a 4:1 purchase and finally exits thru a cam cleat on the last block which locks the runners. The runners/checks, probably like yours, are rigged so that the highest one is connected to the lower one and the lower one has an additional 4 or 6 to 1 purchase with a smaller cam cleat so that the shorter lower one can be adjusted separately of the longer higher one. Since my rigging replacement I have not measured the rig but previously IIRC my rake was ~ 12 inches which was in the ball park of recommendations from the lists. Since I no longer have a baby stay, I cannot bend my mast much since I have nothing to hold or pull the middle of the mast forward--only the hydraulic backstay to pull the top aft (and the runners/check stays to prevent too much bend). OTOH, the 4:1 purchase is such that the crew pulls up to tighten the purchase so they can get the runners/check stays pretty tight without going to a winch. In fact when I saw them run to a winch from some boat on the list, I was concerned that using a winch, especially if there was already a purchase on the line, would be too much and pull the attachment bail out of the deck! Downwind, we usually unclip the single connection of the runner/check stay on the deck and let it be loose to avoid interfering with the main--although I have used bungee cords at the deck level to pull them forward, out of the way. I probably have to answer my questions with some on the water tests with the runners as rigged, unrigged and rigged more forward to keep the mast from sagging too far to leeward upwind. Too much sag to leeward has got to be slow and/or reduce pointing especially in a breeze. In light air, like you I could probably forget about them! Based on where they were rigged at the factory/dealer yard, their main effect is clearly to steady the mast fore and aft. Whether their existence was to improve performance/safety/etc. or merely to give a racy look to what is a cruising boat is an open question. The reason I suspect this is that my non-swept spreaders don't seem consistent to me (or my sail maker) with the need for a baby stay--especially a baby stay mounted on a track with some purchase and then run to a winch could but a heck of a bend in the mast with non-swept spreader---but to what end? Charlie PS: This issue has become more important as one of my competitors is a well sailed J34C rated at 111 vs my 120. We finished tied for 1st place last weekend in 12-15 knots with identical 1,1,2,2,2 records. The good news is that this was the first time in years that I ever beat him, the bad news is that he took the last race and hence the regatta! He can stay with me upwind apparently at about the same angle so I need to get everything I can out of my boat. Most other competitors cannot point with me so I usually get to the weather mark first. OTOH, my LWL is only 30 feet and his is closer to 34 so downwind, without a kite, he will overtake me if don't gain enough going upwind. Hence my inquiry about the checks. -Original Message- From: CHARLES SCHEAFFER To: Stus-List ; cc-3...@googlegroups.com Cc: cenel...@aol.com Sent: Thu, Aug 18, 2022 1:33 pm Subject: Re: Stus-List Runners/check-stays Hi Charlie, Great topics as I'm tweaking my setup as well. I think it's important to try different things and make the boat your own. My R model has the three spreader Offshore Spar with runners, checkstays, single backstay with single hydraulic ram. Is your mast three spreaders or the more common two? In my racing, we found the runners and checkstays were unnecessary below ten knots of wind and most of my races were frustratingly below seven knots. We did have a handful of strong wind races and we reefed down for a few starts. I believe the runners and checkstays straighten the mast when the backstay is applied. They limit the amount of bend and prevent inversion. The previous owner of my boat rigged the runner/checkstays closer to the centerline on the transom as many J-35's have done. He had bunji cords pull the slack tails to the backstay at around ten feet above the deck. This puts them aft of the mainsail leech. At the time, I didn't understand that setup and returned the rig to design. Retractors: I took an idea from U20 sailboats and rigged bunji cords to pull the runner/checkstays forward to the chainplates and hold them out of the way. These work great for singlehanding and I can send you pictures. However it adds lines that create a spider web look and I'm sure some crew members wouldn't like climbing out of the cockpit under the bunji cord to get onto the rail. The R model was designed w the runner tails running forward to turning blocks and up to the outer winches on the
Stus-List Re: Runners/check-stays
FWIW, I've seen some improvement in mainsail shape and boatspeed increase when the backstay is tensioned for headstay and I add runners to straighten the mast a little. Sometimes adding backstay will remove headstay sag, but flatten the mainsail a little too much, and adding a little tension to the runners/checkstays will straighten the mast enough to add roundness back into the mainsail luff area. The change was dramatic. Chuck Scheaffer Resolute 1989 C 34R > On 08/18/2022 1:39 PM Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List > wrote: > > > > Hi Charlie > > > > Different boat but also has check stays and hydraulic backstay. Frers > 33. Somewhat bendy mast (with the hydraulic backstay). > > > > Check stays should be ideally close to mid line in boat at the transom > but that is not very possible because helms person would be hindered by > these. Those boats with a tiller often mount on the track that runs across > the transom. On persistence are mounted to pad eyes at the forward end of > pushpit port and stbd, Rod Stright with the C 99 Equinox also on this list > also had a Frers 33 so may chime in. > > > > We were told when we bought the boat that the checks were to prevent mast > pumping in a chop. We almost never see this. However the boat is masthead > rig and backstay is primarily used to tension forestay and luff of headsail. > This is often detrimental to mainsail shape resulting in large wrinkle > extending down the middle of the main. The check stays pull the mast aft > from a point just below the upper spreader. This eliminates (or reduces) the > wrinkle in the main caused by backstay tension. > > > > Of course we rarely use the check stays as it adds an extra layer of > complication to running the boat but when we have in the past it made for a > better mainsail shape in certain conditions. Normally we just run them down > the shrouds and tie them off at shroud base for simplicity. > > > > We do not have runners. > > > > Hope this helps > > > > Mike Hoyt > > Persistence > > Halifax, NS > > > > > > > > From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List > Sent: August 18, 2022 1:43 PM > To: cc-3...@googlegroups.com; cnc-list@cnc-list.com > Cc: cenel...@aol.com > Subject: Stus-List Runners/check-stays > > > Hello all; > > > > My C 36 XL/kcb was delivered with the runners/check-stays run to the > aft rail just about the location of the original headsail winches. They are > rigged with a 4:1 purchase and are released/tightened depending on what tack > we are on. Downwind they are unshackled and pulled forward. > > > > I removed the baby stay and its purchase/track to save wear and tear on > the headsail during tacks so my boat is slightly modified from its factory > settings. I do have and use a hydraulic backstay adjuster and always race > with a roller furling headsail. > > > > I just had all the standing rigging replaced after 27 years of mostly > PHRF racing in the lighter airs of the Pamlico Sound/Neuse River in NC. With > a PHRF rating of 120 I am usually competitive with the fleet against similar > sized boats sailed reasonably well--which I manage to do most of the time. > > > > My question for this group, especially those with runners/check-stays > rigged, is two fold: > > > > 1. Given their aft location on the quarters, the angle they make with the > mast is mostly aft--I'd guess about 75 degrees from perpendicular to the > mast, or maybe 165 degrees off the bow. At that angle and purchase, they > certainly have a minor effect on pulling the mast to weather upwind, which I > understand is their main purpose (although they may also help prevent mast > pumping in serious chop). Question #1 is do I really need them as currently > set-up? > > > > 2. If the answer to question #1 is yes, my next question #2 is should I > move them forward so they have a better angle keeping the mast to windward > and perhaps increase their purchase? I know from these groups that some run > their runners/check-stays to winches to put some serious tension on them at > the expense of more trimming, etc. > > > > Before I do a sailing test with and without them, thoughts from the lists > are welcome. > > > > BTW, my mast is a relatively bendy Off-Shore spar--hardly a telephone > pole--so it can be bent with the hydraulic backstay adjuster. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Charlie Nelson > > 1995 C 36 XL/kcb > > Water Phantom > > > > > > >
Stus-List Re: Runners/check-stays
Hi Charlie Different boat but also has check stays and hydraulic backstay. Frers 33. Somewhat bendy mast (with the hydraulic backstay). Check stays should be ideally close to mid line in boat at the transom but that is not very possible because helms person would be hindered by these. Those boats with a tiller often mount on the track that runs across the transom. On persistence are mounted to pad eyes at the forward end of pushpit port and stbd, Rod Stright with the C 99 Equinox also on this list also had a Frers 33 so may chime in. We were told when we bought the boat that the checks were to prevent mast pumping in a chop. We almost never see this. However the boat is masthead rig and backstay is primarily used to tension forestay and luff of headsail. This is often detrimental to mainsail shape resulting in large wrinkle extending down the middle of the main. The check stays pull the mast aft from a point just below the upper spreader. This eliminates (or reduces) the wrinkle in the main caused by backstay tension. Of course we rarely use the check stays as it adds an extra layer of complication to running the boat but when we have in the past it made for a better mainsail shape in certain conditions. Normally we just run them down the shrouds and tie them off at shroud base for simplicity. We do not have runners. Hope this helps Mike Hoyt Persistence Halifax, NS From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List Sent: August 18, 2022 1:43 PM To: cc-3...@googlegroups.com; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: cenel...@aol.com Subject: Stus-List Runners/check-stays Hello all; My C 36 XL/kcb was delivered with the runners/check-stays run to the aft rail just about the location of the original headsail winches. They are rigged with a 4:1 purchase and are released/tightened depending on what tack we are on. Downwind they are unshackled and pulled forward. I removed the baby stay and its purchase/track to save wear and tear on the headsail during tacks so my boat is slightly modified from its factory settings. I do have and use a hydraulic backstay adjuster and always race with a roller furling headsail. I just had all the standing rigging replaced after 27 years of mostly PHRF racing in the lighter airs of the Pamlico Sound/Neuse River in NC. With a PHRF rating of 120 I am usually competitive with the fleet against similar sized boats sailed reasonably well--which I manage to do most of the time. My question for this group, especially those with runners/check-stays rigged, is two fold: 1. Given their aft location on the quarters, the angle they make with the mast is mostly aft--I'd guess about 75 degrees from perpendicular to the mast, or maybe 165 degrees off the bow. At that angle and purchase, they certainly have a minor effect on pulling the mast to weather upwind, which I understand is their main purpose (although they may also help prevent mast pumping in serious chop). Question #1 is do I really need them as currently set-up? 2. If the answer to question #1 is yes, my next question #2 is should I move them forward so they have a better angle keeping the mast to windward and perhaps increase their purchase? I know from these groups that some run their runners/check-stays to winches to put some serious tension on them at the expense of more trimming, etc. Before I do a sailing test with and without them, thoughts from the lists are welcome. BTW, my mast is a relatively bendy Off-Shore spar--hardly a telephone pole--so it can be bent with the hydraulic backstay adjuster. Thanks, Charlie Nelson 1995 C 36 XL/kcb Water Phantom
Stus-List Re: Runners/check-stays
Hi Charlie, Great topics as I'm tweaking my setup as well. I think it's important to try different things and make the boat your own. My R model has the three spreader Offshore Spar with runners, checkstays, single backstay with single hydraulic ram. Is your mast three spreaders or the more common two? In my racing, we found the runners and checkstays were unnecessary below ten knots of wind and most of my races were frustratingly below seven knots. We did have a handful of strong wind races and we reefed down for a few starts. I believe the runners and checkstays straighten the mast when the backstay is applied. They limit the amount of bend and prevent inversion. The previous owner of my boat rigged the runner/checkstays closer to the centerline on the transom as many J-35's have done. He had bunji cords pull the slack tails to the backstay at around ten feet above the deck. This puts them aft of the mainsail leech. At the time, I didn't understand that setup and returned the rig to design. Retractors: I took an idea from U20 sailboats and rigged bunji cords to pull the runner/checkstays forward to the chainplates and hold them out of the way. These work great for singlehanding and I can send you pictures. However it adds lines that create a spider web look and I'm sure some crew members wouldn't like climbing out of the cockpit under the bunji cord to get onto the rail. The R model was designed w the runner tails running forward to turning blocks and up to the outer winches on the cabintop. I recently added clutches to the lines so I can free up that winch after setting the runner/checkstay tension. Sometimes I need to adjust halyard tension. Haven't sailed enough to judge this setup. Have you ever measured your prebend and mast rake? Chuck > On 08/18/2022 12:42 PM Charlie Nelson via CnC-List > wrote: > > > Hello all; > > My C 36 XL/kcb was delivered with the runners/check-stays run to the > aft rail just about the location of the original headsail winches. They are > rigged with a 4:1 purchase and are released/tightened depending on what tack > we are on. Downwind they are unshackled and pulled forward. > > I removed the baby stay and its purchase/track to save wear and tear on > the headsail during tacks so my boat is slightly modified from its factory > settings. I do have and use a hydraulic backstay adjuster and always race > with a roller furling headsail. > > I just had all the standing rigging replaced after 27 years of mostly > PHRF racing in the lighter airs of the Pamlico Sound/Neuse River in NC. With > a PHRF rating of 120 I am usually competitive with the fleet against similar > sized boats sailed reasonably well--which I manage to do most of the time. > > My question for this group, especially those with runners/check-stays > rigged, is two fold: > > 1. Given their aft location on the quarters, the angle they make with the > mast is mostly aft--I'd guess about 75 degrees from perpendicular to the > mast, or maybe 165 degrees off the bow. At that angle and purchase, they > certainly have a minor effect on pulling the mast to weather upwind, which I > understand is their main purpose (although they may also help prevent mast > pumping in serious chop). Question #1 is do I really need them as currently > set-up? > > 2. If the answer to question #1 is yes, my next question #2 is should I > move them forward so they have a better angle keeping the mast to windward > and perhaps increase their purchase? I know from these groups that some run > their runners/check-stays to winches to put some serious tension on them at > the expense of more trimming, etc. > > Before I do a sailing test with and without them, thoughts from the lists > are welcome. > > BTW, my mast is a relatively bendy Off-Shore spar--hardly a telephone > pole--so it can be bent with the hydraulic backstay adjuster. > > Thanks, > > Charlie Nelson > 1995 C 36 XL/kcb > Water Phantom > > > >
Stus-List Conduit Size for C 30 Mark 1 ?
Hello All, I am planning to install conduit in the mast of our 30 Mark 1. Unfortunately I am hours away from the boat, and need to buy the conduit Would 1.5" PVC Conduit fit ? Would 1.5" run without obstruction all the way to the masthead, or is there something at the spreader that would get in the way ? I prefer 1 1/2" 1 1/4" is about the minimum I would want to use. Thanks !
Stus-List Runners/check-stays
Hello all; My C 36 XL/kcb was delivered with the runners/check-stays run to the aft rail just about the location of the original headsail winches. They are rigged with a 4:1 purchase and are released/tightened depending on what tack we are on. Downwind they are unshackled and pulled forward. I removed the baby stay and its purchase/track to save wear and tear on the headsail during tacks so my boat is slightly modified from its factory settings. I do have and use a hydraulic backstay adjuster and always race with a roller furling headsail. I just had all the standing rigging replaced after 27 years of mostly PHRF racing in the lighter airs of the Pamlico Sound/Neuse River in NC. With a PHRF rating of 120 I am usually competitive with the fleet against similar sized boats sailed reasonably well--which I manage to do most of the time. My question for this group, especially those with runners/check-stays rigged, is two fold: 1. Given their aft location on the quarters, the angle they make with the mast is mostly aft--I'd guess about 75 degrees from perpendicular to the mast, or maybe 165 degrees off the bow. At that angle and purchase, they certainly have a minor effect on pulling the mast to weather upwind, which I understand is their main purpose (although they may also help prevent mast pumping in serious chop). Question #1 is do I really need them as currently set-up? 2. If the answer to question #1 is yes, my next question #2 is should I move them forward so they have a better angle keeping the mast to windward and perhaps increase their purchase? I know from these groups that some run their runners/check-stays to winches to put some serious tension on them at the expense of more trimming, etc. Before I do a sailing test with and without them, thoughts from the lists are welcome. BTW, my mast is a relatively bendy Off-Shore spar--hardly a telephone pole--so it can be bent with the hydraulic backstay adjuster. Thanks, Charlie Nelson1995 C 36 XL/kcbWater Phantom
