Re: Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa core from drilled hole
I found that clear mailing tape works well to cover the bottom of the hole. Bend the end over to help removal later. A shop vac for removing the core is essential. West Systems has a nice booklet and videos that explain proper technigues. West suggests wetting the inside of any hole; core and skins with unthickened epoxy first. I start with about 3 or 4 pumps of resin and hardener in a plastic cup (Dollar Store throw aways). I mix thoroughly with an acid brush, for well over 1 minute, wet out the holes, then I add 404 High Density filler to the cup mixing until it is like mayonaise or peanut butter, and fill the holes using the brush to push it into any voids in the core. One problem with West is the amine blush that forms when it cures, and requires grinding before adding another layer. Scrubbing with a good 3M pad removes it easiest if the surface isn't too rough. Don't wet out more holes than you have prepaired filler. You can keep adding more epoxy/filler as long as the first is still reacting, is in gel form and hasn't cured hard. Once it is hard, you need to grind off the amine blush to get a good bond. Also, in warmer weather, if your cup of epoxy starts to overheat, you can set it in a shallow pan of water to slow down the reaction, and prevent a fire. In colder weather, I like to have a heat gun handy to warm the surface before applying and to warm the epoxy to get it to kick. I also use a heat lamp to keep heat on an area to be sure it will cure thoroughly. I don't like to epoxy anything if the temp of the substrate is below 40 or above 80. Chuck Resolute 1990 C&C 34R Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md - Original Message - From: "Josh Muckley via CnC-List" . To: "kelly petew" , "C&C List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 12:11:14 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa core from drilled hole I just did this for my new stainless steel handrails. I didn't have real good luck with a bent nail so I tried various sizes of allen wrench. I found that a 3/16th or 1/8th inch drill bit through 3/8th holes at various angles worked best. I shop-vaced the chips out. After that you'll have better luck finishing up the hole with anballen wrench. If these are new holes, you might try to avoid drilling through the bottom skin. Otherwise you'll have to tape or plug the bottom hole when you go to fill with epoxy. I wet out the hole with clear penitrating epoxy and then fill in stages with thickend epoxy. If you drill through the bottom layer you can use masking tape to plug it, then a drop or two of 10 minute epoxy in the void to seal it. That way none of the CPE or thickened epoxy leaks out. I was filling the holes in 40-50°F weather so I used the fast hardening agent. In a large flat area this would have been fine but since some of my voids were close to 3 or 4 Tbsp (or 45-60ml) this caused a thermal run away in some of the holes. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 C&C 37+ Solomons, MD On Feb 26, 2015 11:44 AM, "kelly petew via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: I want to remove balsa core from some drilled holes and replace it with epoxy. I've heard that a bent nail inserted into an electric drill works. But I wonder if there is a tool designed specifically to do this job. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Pete W. Siren Song C&C 30-2 Deltaville, VA ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa core from drilled hole
On our deck the balsa core is 3/4" thick, so a small chisel worked best to remove 1/4" of core around the hole. Just worked on a smaller panel where the core is only 1/4" thick. I put the pointy end of a 20 penny nail in a drill chuck, bent the headed end over to a 90 degree angle using visegrips and a hammer. I figured I wanted about 1/4" for gouging out the balsa, so cut the head off at that length. It worked great, and was very quick. I drill the oversized hole 3 X the fastener size, so I drilled the 3/4" hole, placed the nail into it and started the drill, and gouged out the balsa material, using the rim of fiberglass as a guide. Chuck Resolute 1990 C&C 34R Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md - Original Message - From: "Robert Mazza via CnC-List" To: "kelly petew" , "C&C Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 12:27:48 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa core from drilled hole Pete, I've used an Allan Key in a drill chuck to do it, but a bent nails sounded even more efficient. What you are doing is entirely the right approach. All holes through balsa or any other core should be "potted" with epoxy. Use the slow hardener though, the fast hardener generates a lot of exotherm on that much filled epoxy and may even boil. Rob On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 11:43 AM, kelly petew via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote: I want to remove balsa core from some drilled holes and replace it with epoxy. I've heard that a bent nail inserted into an electric drill works. But I wonder if there is a tool designed specifically to do this job. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Pete W. Siren Song C&C 30-2 Deltaville, VA ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa core from drilled hole - resins etc
You need exactly the right size pilot hole for self-tapping screws. Trial and error has led me to two sizes that work reliably. #10 screws need 11/64 pilot hole, 1/4" fasteners need a 1/4" pilot hole. I know that sounds very strange, but try it on some scrap glass and see how it works. Jim Watts Paradigm Shift C&C 35 Mk III Victoria, BC On 26 February 2015 at 10:30, Martin DeYoung via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > Steve, > > > > Epoxy (West’s or others) provides a superior secondary bond over > polyester. West Systems is often used by DIY boat owners because of their > very helpful instructions and guide on their web site and the availability > through retailers. > > > > Also, polyester based resins and fillers absorb moisture faster than > epoxies. (Our company uses both in aerospace and mil-spec components that > are tested for suitability in a wide range of exposures.) > > > > For short term repairs polyester based fillers and resins will work fine. > Over 10+ years epoxy based resins and fillers will provide a better bond > and resist water intrusion/absorption better. > > > > Both need to be protected from UV. > > > > Martin DeYoung > > Calypso > > 1971 C&C 43 > > Seattle > > > [image: Description: Description: cid:D1BF9853-22F7-47FB-86F2-4115CE0BAF2F] > > > > *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Steve > Thomas via CnC-List > *Sent:* Thursday, February 26, 2015 10:15 AM > *To:* Josh Muckley; cnc-list@cnc-list.com > *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa > core from drilled hole - resins etc > > > > I bought a used Natty dodger for my boat and am faced with the same task > for the 30+ holes to install the Lift-the-Dot® fasteners that it requires > to fasten the canvass to the deck. > > I did try to counter sink holes in the gelcoat and screw into the top > fiberglass layer underneath, but that turned out to be a disaster. > > I have done lots of through bolting for various things over the years > without difficulty, but this was my first experience trying to use self > tapping fasteners (look like wood screws) in the deck and it was not a > positive experience. The gelcoat is very thick in places, and in spite of > my attempts to counter sink the gelcoat, often as not the screw chips out a > huge flake. Removing the canvas female fastener from the deck mounted pins > can take some force, and the screws pull out of the thin top layer of fiber > glass. So I concluded after several failures that I need to stop what I was > doing and use the drill and fill procedure. Then came winter. > > > > In all of these discussions about drilling and filling over the years, > everyone defaults to using West System epoxy resin to fill the areas > needing reinforcement. > > What is it about this product that makes it so superior? > > Why not use a polyester resin? - at least gelcoat will stick to it. > > Like most of us older guys I had experience with automotive body fillers > in my younger years. > > They are all polyester. What is wrong with using that? > > > > Some of the Lift-the-Dot® fasteners are difficult to release and I don't > know how to fix them. I have been thinking about changing over to the > flat, 1/4 turn fasteners that are commonly used now. Is it a practical > solution? Has anyone tried this? > > > > Spring project. > > > > Steve Thomas > > C&C27 MKIII > > > > ___ > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the > bottom of page at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > > > ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa core from drilled hole
A forstner bit takes one half of the sandwich off too though right? I thought the idea was to leave the inner and outer skins intact while removing the core. Josh On Feb 26, 2015 5:20 PM, "svpegasu...@gmail.com" wrote: > I use a fostner bit to remove coring. > > Doug > > Pegasus > > LF38 > > > T-Mobile. America's First Nationwide 4G Network. > > -- Original message-- > > *From: *kelly petew via CnC-List > > *Date: *Thu, Feb 26, 2015 08:43 > > *To: *cnc-list; > > *Subject:*Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa core > from drilled hole > I want to remove balsa core from some drilled holes and replace it with > epoxy. I've heard that a bent nail inserted into an electric drill works. > But I wonder if there is a tool designed specifically to do this job. > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. > > Pete W. > > Siren Song > C&C 30-2 > Deltaville, VA > > ___ > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the > bottom of page at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > > > ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa core from drilled hole
I use a fostner bit to remove coring. DougPegasus LF38 T-Mobile. America's First Nationwide 4G Network. -- Original message--From: kelly petew via CnC-List Date: Thu, Feb 26, 2015 08:43To: cnc-list;Subject:Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa core from drilled holeI want to remove balsa core from some drilled holes and replace it with epoxy. I've heard that a bent nail inserted into an electric drill works. But I wonder if there is a tool designed specifically to do this job. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Pete W. Siren Song C&C 30-2 Deltaville, VA ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa core from drilled hole
I have used a screwdriver and a 1/4-inch wide wood chisel successfully to remove balsa cored from drilled holes. The bent nail in a drill never worked very well for me. Bob Bob Boyer S/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD 1983 C&C Landfall 38 - Hull #230 email: dainyr...@icloud.com blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com "There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." --Kenneth Grahame___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa core from drilled hole - resins etc
Steve, Epoxy (West's or others) provides a superior secondary bond over polyester. West Systems is often used by DIY boat owners because of their very helpful instructions and guide on their web site and the availability through retailers. Also, polyester based resins and fillers absorb moisture faster than epoxies. (Our company uses both in aerospace and mil-spec components that are tested for suitability in a wide range of exposures.) For short term repairs polyester based fillers and resins will work fine. Over 10+ years epoxy based resins and fillers will provide a better bond and resist water intrusion/absorption better. Both need to be protected from UV. Martin DeYoung Calypso 1971 C&C 43 Seattle [Description: Description: cid:D1BF9853-22F7-47FB-86F2-4115CE0BAF2F] From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Steve Thomas via CnC-List Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 10:15 AM To: Josh Muckley; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa core from drilled hole - resins etc I bought a used Natty dodger for my boat and am faced with the same task for the 30+ holes to install the Lift-the-Dot(r) fasteners that it requires to fasten the canvass to the deck. I did try to counter sink holes in the gelcoat and screw into the top fiberglass layer underneath, but that turned out to be a disaster. I have done lots of through bolting for various things over the years without difficulty, but this was my first experience trying to use self tapping fasteners (look like wood screws) in the deck and it was not a positive experience. The gelcoat is very thick in places, and in spite of my attempts to counter sink the gelcoat, often as not the screw chips out a huge flake. Removing the canvas female fastener from the deck mounted pins can take some force, and the screws pull out of the thin top layer of fiber glass. So I concluded after several failures that I need to stop what I was doing and use the drill and fill procedure. Then came winter. In all of these discussions about drilling and filling over the years, everyone defaults to using West System epoxy resin to fill the areas needing reinforcement. What is it about this product that makes it so superior? Why not use a polyester resin? - at least gelcoat will stick to it. Like most of us older guys I had experience with automotive body fillers in my younger years. They are all polyester. What is wrong with using that? Some of the Lift-the-Dot(r) fasteners are difficult to release and I don't know how to fix them. I have been thinking about changing over to the flat, 1/4 turn fasteners that are commonly used now. Is it a practical solution? Has anyone tried this? Spring project. Steve Thomas C&C27 MKIII ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa core from drilled hole
I want to remove balsa core from some drilled holes and replace it with epoxy. I've heard that a bent nail inserted into an electric drill works. But I wonder if there is a tool designed specifically to do this job. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Pete W. Siren Song C&C 30-2 Deltaville, VA ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa core from drilled hole - resins etc
I bought a used Natty dodger for my boat and am faced with the same task for the 30+ holes to install the Lift-the-Dot® fasteners that it requires to fasten the canvass to the deck. I did try to counter sink holes in the gelcoat and screw into the top fiberglass layer underneath, but that turned out to be a disaster. I have done lots of through bolting for various things over the years without difficulty, but this was my first experience trying to use self tapping fasteners (look like wood screws) in the deck and it was not a positive experience. The gelcoat is very thick in places, and in spite of my attempts to counter sink the gelcoat, often as not the screw chips out a huge flake. Removing the canvas female fastener from the deck mounted pins can take some force, and the screws pull out of the thin top layer of fiber glass. So I concluded after several failures that I need to stop what I was doing and use the drill and fill procedure. Then came winter. In all of these discussions about drilling and filling over the years, everyone defaults to using West System epoxy resin to fill the areas needing reinforcement. What is it about this product that makes it so superior? Why not use a polyester resin? - at least gelcoat will stick to it. Like most of us older guys I had experience with automotive body fillers in my younger years. They are all polyester. What is wrong with using that? Some of the Lift-the-Dot® fasteners are difficult to release and I don't know how to fix them. I have been thinking about changing over to the flat, 1/4 turn fasteners that are commonly used now. Is it a practical solution? Has anyone tried this? Spring project. Steve Thomas C&C27 MKIII - Original Message - From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List To: kelly petew ; C&C List Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 12:11 Subject: Re: Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa core from drilled hole I just did this for my new stainless steel handrails. I didn't have real good luck with a bent nail so I tried various sizes of allen wrench. I found that a 3/16th or 1/8th inch drill bit through 3/8th holes at various angles worked best. I shop-vaced the chips out. After that you'll have better luck finishing up the hole with anballen wrench. If these are new holes, you might try to avoid drilling through the bottom skin. Otherwise you'll have to tape or plug the bottom hole when you go to fill with epoxy. I wet out the hole with clear penitrating epoxy and then fill in stages with thickend epoxy. If you drill through the bottom layer you can use masking tape to plug it, then a drop or two of 10 minute epoxy in the void to seal it. That way none of the CPE or thickened epoxy leaks out. I was filling the holes in 40-50°F weather so I used the fast hardening agent. In a large flat area this would have been fine but since some of my voids were close to 3 or 4 Tbsp (or 45-60ml) this caused a thermal run away in some of the holes. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 C&C 37+ Solomons, MD On Feb 26, 2015 11:44 AM, "kelly petew via CnC-List" wrote: I want to remove balsa core from some drilled holes and replace it with epoxy. I've heard that a bent nail inserted into an electric drill works. But I wonder if there is a tool designed specifically to do this job. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Pete W. Siren Song C&C 30-2 Deltaville, VA ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com -- ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa core from drilled hole
Pete, I've used an Allan Key in a drill chuck to do it, but a bent nails sounded even more efficient. What you are doing is entirely the right approach. All holes through balsa or any other core should be "potted" with epoxy. Use the slow hardener though, the fast hardener generates a lot of exotherm on that much filled epoxy and may even boil. Rob On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 11:43 AM, kelly petew via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > I want to remove balsa core from some drilled holes and replace it with > epoxy. I've heard that a bent nail inserted into an electric drill works. > But I wonder if there is a tool designed specifically to do this job. > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. > > Pete W. > > Siren Song > C&C 30-2 > Deltaville, VA > > ___ > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the > bottom of page at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > > > ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Need Recommendation for Tool to remove balsa core from drilled hole
I just did this for my new stainless steel handrails. I didn't have real good luck with a bent nail so I tried various sizes of allen wrench. I found that a 3/16th or 1/8th inch drill bit through 3/8th holes at various angles worked best. I shop-vaced the chips out. After that you'll have better luck finishing up the hole with anballen wrench. If these are new holes, you might try to avoid drilling through the bottom skin. Otherwise you'll have to tape or plug the bottom hole when you go to fill with epoxy. I wet out the hole with clear penitrating epoxy and then fill in stages with thickend epoxy. If you drill through the bottom layer you can use masking tape to plug it, then a drop or two of 10 minute epoxy in the void to seal it. That way none of the CPE or thickened epoxy leaks out. I was filling the holes in 40-50°F weather so I used the fast hardening agent. In a large flat area this would have been fine but since some of my voids were close to 3 or 4 Tbsp (or 45-60ml) this caused a thermal run away in some of the holes. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 C&C 37+ Solomons, MD On Feb 26, 2015 11:44 AM, "kelly petew via CnC-List" wrote: > I want to remove balsa core from some drilled holes and replace it with > epoxy. I've heard that a bent nail inserted into an electric drill works. > But I wonder if there is a tool designed specifically to do this job. > > Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. > > Pete W. > > Siren Song > C&C 30-2 > Deltaville, VA > > ___ > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the > bottom of page at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > > > ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
