Re: Stus-List Opinions on hull/keel crack expansion

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Gene,

There is no doubt that the bolts are designed to act together.  Creating
unbalanced strain in a few bolts but not all is probably better than
equally loose on all, but not by much.  On the other hand if you find that
all the accessible bolts are appropriately torqued then it is pretty likely
that the single inaccessible bolt under the mast is tight enough.  To be
honest if I found that to be the case then I would perform the v-groove and
fill with g-flex and call it good.  Do as little as is necessary.

Josh


On Apr 11, 2017 5:49 PM, "Eugene Fodor via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
wrote:

Hi Josh,

I'm not planning on dropping the keel this year. My boats on the hard right
now, but I wasn't planning on dropping the mast. Do you see any issue with
just checking the torque on the ones that are easily accessible?

Thanks,

Gene
"Hawk"
C 29-2 84-85

From: Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com>
> To: "C List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions on hull/keel crack expansion
> Message-ID:
> <ca+zacrc7jpdbfepdbnv8r4mnpiwui-am6jzfp06gpe4qwnd...@mail.gm
> ail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> http://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/keep-your-bilge-dry-with-a-
> garboard-drain-plug/
>
> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:50 PM Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Gene,
> >
> > If you're spending a significant amount of time out of the water and
> can't
> > keep your bilge dry (not uncommon).  Many of the listers have installed
> > garboard drains.  They install the plug and then fare over the outer
> hole.
> > In the winter once the boat is hauled out the plug is removed and the
> > faring is knocked out.  The bilge drains completely for the duration of
> the
> > winter.
> >
> > As for your keel to hull crack.  Many of the listers refer to this as the
> > C smile.  Some do so little that when their boat smiles at them they
> just
> > smile back.  Others have gone so far as to remove the keel and thoroughly
> > refit.  Generally speaking you should at least check the keel bolt
> torque.
> > This should be only be done while sitting on the hard.  It will usually
> > require removal of the mast to get to one of the keel bolts.  You'll also
> > need some jumbo sockets, a torque multiplier, and a torque wrench.  After
> > checking the torque, some of the listers have had good results grinding a
> > 1/2" deep 'V' groove at the crack, filling with thickened epoxy, and
> > applying a 4" wide fiberglass tape bandage all the way around the keel.
> >
> > Here is a different prescription:
> >
> > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8pEh5lnvP1yV1JEN3YxQk1RbHc
> /view?usp=drivesdk
> >
> > Good luck,
> > Josh Muckley
> > S/V Sea Hawk
> > 1989 C 37+
> > Solomons, MD
> >
> >
> > On Apr 10, 2017 1:36 PM, "Eugene Fodor via CnC-List" <
> > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
> >
> > I have a crack at my hull/keel joint and am debating filling it with
> 4200.
> > It is no significant and as I understand it this is pretty normal for
> boats
> > with an external keel. My concern is that since my boats up north in
> > Wisconsin and spends a good amount of time frozen, I'm wondering if
> filling
> > it might actually cause expansion if any water gets down the keel bolt
> and
> > through the cracks. One of my keel bolts has had this problem which I
> > mitigated through drilling a hole on each side of the bulge, epoxy fill
> and
> > some vigorous hammering. Thoughts?
> >
> > Gene Fodor
> > "Hawk"
> > C 29-2 84-85
> >
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Opinions on hull/keel crack expansion

[Eugene Fodor via CnC-List]

Hi Josh,

I'm not planning on dropping the keel this year. My boats on the hard right
now, but I wasn't planning on dropping the mast. Do you see any issue with
just checking the torque on the ones that are easily accessible?

Thanks,

Gene
"Hawk"
C 29-2 84-85

From: Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com>
> To: "C List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions on hull/keel crack expansion
> Message-ID:
> <CA+zaCRC7jPdbfePDbnv8R4mnpiwUi-AM6Jzfp06gpe4QWndKXA@mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> http://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/keep-your-bilge-dry-with-
> a-garboard-drain-plug/
>
> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:50 PM Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Gene,
> >
> > If you're spending a significant amount of time out of the water and
> can't
> > keep your bilge dry (not uncommon).  Many of the listers have installed
> > garboard drains.  They install the plug and then fare over the outer
> hole.
> > In the winter once the boat is hauled out the plug is removed and the
> > faring is knocked out.  The bilge drains completely for the duration of
> the
> > winter.
> >
> > As for your keel to hull crack.  Many of the listers refer to this as the
> > C smile.  Some do so little that when their boat smiles at them they
> just
> > smile back.  Others have gone so far as to remove the keel and thoroughly
> > refit.  Generally speaking you should at least check the keel bolt
> torque.
> > This should be only be done while sitting on the hard.  It will usually
> > require removal of the mast to get to one of the keel bolts.  You'll also
> > need some jumbo sockets, a torque multiplier, and a torque wrench.  After
> > checking the torque, some of the listers have had good results grinding a
> > 1/2" deep 'V' groove at the crack, filling with thickened epoxy, and
> > applying a 4" wide fiberglass tape bandage all the way around the keel.
> >
> > Here is a different prescription:
> >
> > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8pEh5lnvP1yV1JEN3YxQk1RbHc/
> view?usp=drivesdk
> >
> > Good luck,
> > Josh Muckley
> > S/V Sea Hawk
> > 1989 C 37+
> > Solomons, MD
> >
> >
> > On Apr 10, 2017 1:36 PM, "Eugene Fodor via CnC-List" <
> > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
> >
> > I have a crack at my hull/keel joint and am debating filling it with
> 4200.
> > It is no significant and as I understand it this is pretty normal for
> boats
> > with an external keel. My concern is that since my boats up north in
> > Wisconsin and spends a good amount of time frozen, I'm wondering if
> filling
> > it might actually cause expansion if any water gets down the keel bolt
> and
> > through the cracks. One of my keel bolts has had this problem which I
> > mitigated through drilling a hole on each side of the bulge, epoxy fill
> and
> > some vigorous hammering. Thoughts?
> >
> > Gene Fodor
> > "Hawk"
> > C 29-2 84-85
> >
>
>
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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List Opinions on hull/keel crack expansion

[Doug Ellmore via CnC-List]

When I pulled my C 24, I had a little keel smile, too.

I got the yard to work with me to brake the keel bolt nuts free.  It
required just a little heat, too.

We then raised the jack stands so I had about 3/4"-1" gap between the keel
and the bottom of the boat.  I really could not have gone more with the
nuts of the bolts.  I did not want to remove the nuts of the bolts.

I then scraped and cleaned out the area really well.  I chipped away a bit
of the gel coat that was part of the crack.  I ended up exposing some loose
fiberglass above the keel.  Good thing was everything seem dry.

I then filled the gap with 2 tubes of boatlife lifecaulk.  Laying a big bed
in the middle to out to about 1/2" from the edge.

I then cranked up the keel from inside the boat.  Caulk squirted out of the
seam.  I wiped it off with clean rags, leaving excess material around the
previous gap.

We then lowered the boat on the keel and added another 1/2 turn +/-on the
keel bolts.  I broke a smaller bronze nut on the front of the keel and ran
to west marine nearby and got a stainless lock nut of the same thread size
and extra wide washer.

I cleaned up the little extra caulk that squirted out from the final
tightening process.

I splashed the outside of the lifecaulk with water to help start the cure
process and did that every evening for the next three nights.

After I had 3 coats of barrier coat I then used an epoxy fairing compound
around the seam and smile crack.  Then I sanded the fairing the following
day, followed up with 2 coats of barrier coat over the fairing compound.

I took some photos and can forward them if you need to see a few pictures.
But I have a few pics of the project at http://www.hhsa.org/ under photo
for my C 24.

-- 
Doug Ellmore, Sr.
s/v Red Sky C 24
d...@ellmore.net
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Re: Stus-List Opinions on hull/keel crack expansion

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

http://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/keep-your-bilge-dry-with-a-garboard-drain-plug/

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:50 PM Josh Muckley  wrote:

> Gene,
>
> If you're spending a significant amount of time out of the water and can't
> keep your bilge dry (not uncommon).  Many of the listers have installed
> garboard drains.  They install the plug and then fare over the outer hole.
> In the winter once the boat is hauled out the plug is removed and the
> faring is knocked out.  The bilge drains completely for the duration of the
> winter.
>
> As for your keel to hull crack.  Many of the listers refer to this as the
> C smile.  Some do so little that when their boat smiles at them they just
> smile back.  Others have gone so far as to remove the keel and thoroughly
> refit.  Generally speaking you should at least check the keel bolt torque.
> This should be only be done while sitting on the hard.  It will usually
> require removal of the mast to get to one of the keel bolts.  You'll also
> need some jumbo sockets, a torque multiplier, and a torque wrench.  After
> checking the torque, some of the listers have had good results grinding a
> 1/2" deep 'V' groove at the crack, filling with thickened epoxy, and
> applying a 4" wide fiberglass tape bandage all the way around the keel.
>
> Here is a different prescription:
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8pEh5lnvP1yV1JEN3YxQk1RbHc/view?usp=drivesdk
>
> Good luck,
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
>
> On Apr 10, 2017 1:36 PM, "Eugene Fodor via CnC-List" <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> I have a crack at my hull/keel joint and am debating filling it with 4200.
> It is no significant and as I understand it this is pretty normal for boats
> with an external keel. My concern is that since my boats up north in
> Wisconsin and spends a good amount of time frozen, I'm wondering if filling
> it might actually cause expansion if any water gets down the keel bolt and
> through the cracks. One of my keel bolts has had this problem which I
> mitigated through drilling a hole on each side of the bulge, epoxy fill and
> some vigorous hammering. Thoughts?
>
> Gene Fodor
> "Hawk"
> C 29-2 84-85
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
>
___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List Opinions on hull/keel crack expansion

[Dave via CnC-List]

Does the 29-2 have a putty-filled forward Section of keel stub?  If so, be wary 
of a volume of water therein

In windstar (33-2) I did a major keel box repair then lifted the hull off the 
keel a few extra mm, cleaned the gap, (hacksaw blade, fein mutimaster). then 
filled as much of the gap as I could, I think it was 4200.  I then dropped the 
boat back down, torqued the bolts and let the compound kick.  There was lots of 
squeeze out, I wiped it fair.
Then I dished the joint with an angle grinder, about 3-4" either side of the 
joint, covered it with glass cloth laid on its bias, in slightly thickened 
epoxy, then faired it with more epoxy.  (I like epoxy...).  Then, interprotect 
and anti fouling paint.  
One season and a frozen Toronto winter on the hard later, no cracks no leaks.  
The joint is invisible.If I need to repair, I can buzz it off with a 
grinder any time.  

Dave 



Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 10, 2017, at 1:35 PM, Eugene Fodor  wrote:
> 
> I have a crack at my hull/keel joint and am debating filling it with 4200. It 
> is no significant and as I understand it this is pretty normal for boats with 
> an external keel. My concern is that since my boats up north in Wisconsin and 
> spends a good amount of time frozen, I'm wondering if filling it might 
> actually cause expansion if any water gets down the keel bolt and through the 
> cracks. One of my keel bolts has had this problem which I mitigated through 
> drilling a hole on each side of the bulge, epoxy fill and some vigorous 
> hammering. Thoughts?
> 
> Gene Fodor
> "Hawk"
> C 29-2 84-85

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List Opinions on hull/keel crack expansion

[Eugene Fodor via CnC-List]

I don't believe I have an iron core. The C 29-II manual says that it's
lead/antimony alloy cast around steel keel bolts. I'm also in fresh water
(Lake Superior) where rust is slower than in salt. My main concern is
expansion due to small amounts of water getting in through the bilge around
the keel bolts and then expanding gaps due to the freeze/thaw cycle up here.

Gene



>
> Expansion will occur when moisture and ferrous metals react through
> rusting. Do the 29's of these years have a cast iron core?  If so, the
> moisture will cause the iron to corrode and be very serious.  An example of
> this is when concrete reinforced slabs develop cracks sufficient to allow
> water to penetrate to the rebar.  Over time, the slab will fail as an
> integral unit.
>
> Bill Dakin
> 25MKII
>
> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Eugene Fodor via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> > I have a crack at my hull/keel joint and am debating filling it with
> 4200.
> > It is no significant and as I understand it this is pretty normal for
> boats
> > with an external keel. My concern is that since my boats up north in
> > Wisconsin and spends a good amount of time frozen, I'm wondering if
> filling
> > it might actually cause expansion if any water gets down the keel bolt
> and
> > through the cracks. One of my keel bolts has had this problem which I
> > mitigated through drilling a hole on each side of the bulge, epoxy fill
> and
> > some vigorous hammering. Thoughts?
> >
> > Gene Fodor
> > "Hawk"
> > C 29-2 84-85
> >
> > ___
> >
> > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> > wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> >
> > All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> 
> Bill Dakin
> Tapestryaussies.org
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:  com/attachments/20170410/f8f31537/attachment-0001.html>
>
> --
>
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Re: Stus-List Opinions on hull/keel crack expansion

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Gene,

If you're spending a significant amount of time out of the water and can't
keep your bilge dry (not uncommon).  Many of the listers have installed
garboard drains.  They install the plug and then fare over the outer hole.
In the winter once the boat is hauled out the plug is removed and the
faring is knocked out.  The bilge drains completely for the duration of the
winter.

As for your keel to hull crack.  Many of the listers refer to this as the
C smile.  Some do so little that when their boat smiles at them they just
smile back.  Others have gone so far as to remove the keel and thoroughly
refit.  Generally speaking you should at least check the keel bolt torque.
This should be only be done while sitting on the hard.  It will usually
require removal of the mast to get to one of the keel bolts.  You'll also
need some jumbo sockets, a torque multiplier, and a torque wrench.  After
checking the torque, some of the listers have had good results grinding a
1/2" deep 'V' groove at the crack, filling with thickened epoxy, and
applying a 4" wide fiberglass tape bandage all the way around the keel.

Here is a different prescription:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8pEh5lnvP1yV1JEN3YxQk1RbHc/view?usp=drivesdk

Good luck,
Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD


On Apr 10, 2017 1:36 PM, "Eugene Fodor via CnC-List" 
wrote:

I have a crack at my hull/keel joint and am debating filling it with 4200.
It is no significant and as I understand it this is pretty normal for boats
with an external keel. My concern is that since my boats up north in
Wisconsin and spends a good amount of time frozen, I'm wondering if filling
it might actually cause expansion if any water gets down the keel bolt and
through the cracks. One of my keel bolts has had this problem which I
mitigated through drilling a hole on each side of the bulge, epoxy fill and
some vigorous hammering. Thoughts?

Gene Fodor
"Hawk"
C 29-2 84-85

___

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wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
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___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Opinions on hull/keel crack expansion

[Bill Dakin via CnC-List]

Expansion will occur when moisture and ferrous metals react through
rusting. Do the 29's of these years have a cast iron core?  If so, the
moisture will cause the iron to corrode and be very serious.  An example of
this is when concrete reinforced slabs develop cracks sufficient to allow
water to penetrate to the rebar.  Over time, the slab will fail as an
integral unit.

Bill Dakin
25MKII

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Eugene Fodor via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I have a crack at my hull/keel joint and am debating filling it with 4200.
> It is no significant and as I understand it this is pretty normal for boats
> with an external keel. My concern is that since my boats up north in
> Wisconsin and spends a good amount of time frozen, I'm wondering if filling
> it might actually cause expansion if any water gets down the keel bolt and
> through the cracks. One of my keel bolts has had this problem which I
> mitigated through drilling a hole on each side of the bulge, epoxy fill and
> some vigorous hammering. Thoughts?
>
> Gene Fodor
> "Hawk"
> C 29-2 84-85
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>


-- 

Bill Dakin
Tapestryaussies.org
___

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Stus-List Opinions on hull/keel crack expansion

[Eugene Fodor via CnC-List]

I have a crack at my hull/keel joint and am debating filling it with 4200.
It is no significant and as I understand it this is pretty normal for boats
with an external keel. My concern is that since my boats up north in
Wisconsin and spends a good amount of time frozen, I'm wondering if filling
it might actually cause expansion if any water gets down the keel bolt and
through the cracks. One of my keel bolts has had this problem which I
mitigated through drilling a hole on each side of the bulge, epoxy fill and
some vigorous hammering. Thoughts?

Gene Fodor
"Hawk"
C 29-2 84-85
___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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