Re: Stus-List Raymarine to octopus drive upgrade - UPDATE
Hi Dave I got a reply from Genco Marine on cost for the octopus unit, the ACU 200 and a rudder position sensor. Would be interested if you’re exploring a tiller arm alternative. There are some machine shops around here, but I don’t have any real good contacts yet. Brad Pulse C 33/2 Lake Huron ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Raymarine to octopus drive upgrade - UPDATE
The reason they gave you a non-answer is they see liability in their future when someone forgets the extra switch and can’t retake manual control and runs over a boat full of preschoolers on a field trip. Make SURE you aren’t either driving into the rudder stops and also are not using the autopilot drive as a rudder stop. This means you could hit the stops but program the autopilot not to. You HAVE to be able to do this. Joe Della Barba DCSI 410-966-7255 From: Dave S [mailto:syerd...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 11:14 AM To: C Stus List ; Della Barba, Joe Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Raymarine to octopus drive upgrade - UPDATE Joe, great summary of the issues, thanks. This is consistent with much of the information I've received so far. * The RS drive is electric, and requires 7A - less than most hydraulic drives. Apparently it also offers less resistance when not in use. The ACU 100 can supply just enough current (IIRC) * The RS also has an electrically operated clutch (equivalent to the solenoid you mention) and requires this capability in the autopilot control unit. The Ray ACU 100 has no provision for this, the ACU-200 does. As you mention, the possibility exists to control the clutch manually with a switch, and in any case the RS can be overridden by hauling on the wheel in an emergency,. The ACU-200 was the smallest Ray ACU recommended by octopus, I believe this is due to the provision for the clutch.. * The RS has an optional rudder position sensor that is gear-driven and mounts as a module on the drive motor assembly - so no separate installation hassle. All Ray ACUs support this sensor. * The RS drive's motor is mounted remotely at the end of the supplied 6' bowden cable, on a 6"X6" plate, not sure of the height. Longer cables are available. It might be worth trying this setup with the ACU100 and saving a grand at the risk of blowing the output fuse. When asked about manually switching the clutch, the tech at octopus gave me something like a non-answer. Am going to mock up a drive/cable to ensure that I can make a really clean install. Will also explore local machine shops who might be able to fabricate a tiller arm. (if anyone else is interested, please reach out, and if anyone knows of a shop who can make one, would appreciate hearing more..) the edson unit seems very spendy for what it is. Dave 33-2 windstar. - Forwarded message -- From: "Della Barba, Joe" mailto:joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov>> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>" mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> Cc: Bcc: Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 12:31:01 +0000 Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine to octopus drive upgrade - UPDATE I have the ancient predecessor to that autopilot, the old AH-4000. I collect parts of them when I find them to have spares and recently was messing around with my drive units. One of them was always undoing itself, so I had a bungee for the lever to keep it on. The other one was doing the opposite, it would slip when loaded up. Full power on the engine was enough to make it slip. Apparently slipping is a belt too loose and popping off on its own is a belt too tight. I managed to combine the best parts of the slipping one with a couple other drives and a new belt and now I have one that neither slips nor pops loose :) I think the newer grey ones have a much easier way to adjust the belt. If your drive pops the lever loose on its own, try loosening the belt a bit. The EV-100 should be vastly superior to my old AH-4000 course computers. Mine will drive a ruler straight line upwind or in calm conditions, but following seas can confuse it and it really can't cope with a spinnaker in a lot of wind. Now for what you are trying to do, there are a few layers to the problem. One is the total current the drive transistors can control. There is no way the old 4000 could ever power a hydraulic drive. Maybe the EV-100 can sink that much current?? The next issue is the solenoid valve. Hydraulic units lock the rudder in place when the autopilot is on by closing a bypass valve and opening the valve allows you to steer by hand again. You would need to rig something to operate that valve. You could just have a switch on it you activate yourself, but this has an obvious pitfall if anyone but you is running the boat. The last issue is the algorithm the autopilot uses to steer the boat. You really would want a rudder reference and even then I can't say for sure how well the autopilot would adapt to a much different level of response than it expects from a wimpy wheel drive. You need the autopilot to NOT try ramming the rudder into the stops with full force. The wheel pilot can do that and not break anything, hydraulics not so much. Joe Della Barba Coquina C 35 MK I www.dellabarba.com<https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=7238729f-2eae447c-72385be8-0cc4
Re: Stus-List Raymarine to octopus drive upgrade - UPDATE
Joe, great summary of the issues, thanks. This is consistent with much of the information I've received so far. - The RS drive is electric, and requires 7A - less than most hydraulic drives. Apparently it also offers less resistance when not in use. The ACU 100 can supply just enough current (IIRC) - The RS also has an electrically operated clutch (equivalent to the solenoid you mention) and requires this capability in the autopilot control unit. The Ray ACU 100 has no provision for this, the ACU-200 does. As you mention, the possibility exists to control the clutch manually with a switch, and in any case the RS can be overridden by hauling on the wheel in an emergency,. The ACU-200 was the smallest Ray ACU recommended by octopus, I believe this is due to the provision for the clutch.. - The RS has an optional rudder position sensor that is gear-driven and mounts as a module on the drive motor assembly - so no separate installation hassle. All Ray ACUs support this sensor. - The RS drive's motor is mounted remotely at the end of the supplied 6' bowden cable, on a 6"X6" plate, not sure of the height. Longer cables are available. It might be worth trying this setup with the ACU100 and saving a grand at the risk of blowing the output fuse. When asked about manually switching the clutch, the tech at octopus gave me something like a non-answer. Am going to mock up a drive/cable to ensure that I can make a really clean install. Will also explore local machine shops who might be able to fabricate a tiller arm. (if anyone else is interested, please reach out, and if anyone knows of a shop who can make one, would appreciate hearing more..) the edson unit seems very spendy for what it is. Dave 33-2 windstar. - Forwarded message -- From: "Della Barba, Joe" To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" Cc: Bcc: Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 12:31:01 + Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine to octopus drive upgrade - UPDATE I have the ancient predecessor to that autopilot, the old AH-4000. I collect parts of them when I find them to have spares and recently was messing around with my drive units. One of them was always undoing itself, so I had a bungee for the lever to keep it on. The other one was doing the opposite, it would slip when loaded up. Full power on the engine was enough to make it slip. Apparently slipping is a belt too loose and popping off on its own is a belt too tight. I managed to combine the best parts of the slipping one with a couple other drives and a new belt and now I have one that neither slips nor pops loose :) I think the newer grey ones have a much easier way to adjust the belt. If your drive pops the lever loose on its own, try loosening the belt a bit. The EV-100 should be vastly superior to my old AH-4000 course computers. Mine will drive a ruler straight line upwind or in calm conditions, but following seas can confuse it and it really can't cope with a spinnaker in a lot of wind. Now for what you are trying to do, there are a few layers to the problem. One is the total current the drive transistors can control. There is no way the old 4000 could ever power a hydraulic drive. Maybe the EV-100 can sink that much current?? The next issue is the solenoid valve. Hydraulic units lock the rudder in place when the autopilot is on by closing a bypass valve and opening the valve allows you to steer by hand again. You would need to rig something to operate that valve. You could just have a switch on it you activate yourself, but this has an obvious pitfall if anyone but you is running the boat. The last issue is the algorithm the autopilot uses to steer the boat. You really would want a rudder reference and even then I can't say for sure how well the autopilot would adapt to a much different level of response than it expects from a wimpy wheel drive. You need the autopilot to NOT try ramming the rudder into the stops with full force. The wheel pilot can do that and not break anything, hydraulics not so much. Joe Della Barba Coquina C 35 MK I www.dellabarba.com ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Raymarine to octopus drive upgrade - UPDATE
I have the ancient predecessor to that autopilot, the old AH-4000. I collect parts of them when I find them to have spares and recently was messing around with my drive units. One of them was always undoing itself, so I had a bungee for the lever to keep it on. The other one was doing the opposite, it would slip when loaded up. Full power on the engine was enough to make it slip. Apparently slipping is a belt too loose and popping off on its own is a belt too tight. I managed to combine the best parts of the slipping one with a couple other drives and a new belt and now I have one that neither slips nor pops loose :) I think the newer grey ones have a much easier way to adjust the belt. If your drive pops the lever loose on its own, try loosening the belt a bit. The EV-100 should be vastly superior to my old AH-4000 course computers. Mine will drive a ruler straight line upwind or in calm conditions, but following seas can confuse it and it really can't cope with a spinnaker in a lot of wind. Now for what you are trying to do, there are a few layers to the problem. One is the total current the drive transistors can control. There is no way the old 4000 could ever power a hydraulic drive. Maybe the EV-100 can sink that much current?? The next issue is the solenoid valve. Hydraulic units lock the rudder in place when the autopilot is on by closing a bypass valve and opening the valve allows you to steer by hand again. You would need to rig something to operate that valve. You could just have a switch on it you activate yourself, but this has an obvious pitfall if anyone but you is running the boat. The last issue is the algorithm the autopilot uses to steer the boat. You really would want a rudder reference and even then I can't say for sure how well the autopilot would adapt to a much different level of response than it expects from a wimpy wheel drive. You need the autopilot to NOT try ramming the rudder into the stops with full force. The wheel pilot can do that and not break anything, hydraulics not so much. Joe Della Barba Coquina C 35 MK I www.dellabarba.com ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Raymarine to octopus drive upgrade - UPDATE
Hello Dave I am following with interest as you work through this, I also have the 33/2 and the EV100 wheel, which I am NOT happy with. It doesn’t steer in less than ideal conditions and has taken to skipping recently, at very least I need to tear the drive apart and see what’s going on. Last winter at the TO boat show the Ray-rep suggested all I needed was to upgrade the software, which I can’t seem to do through my smart phone and chart plotter for some reason. Thanks for keeping us updated Brad Pulse C 33/2 Lake Huron ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Raymarine to octopus drive upgrade - UPDATE
It’s a fair question as the wheelpilot works fine in gentle conditions. I generally sail singlehanded and sometimes in rough or breezy conditions it unlatches or partially unlatches itself. This has been quite a surprise a few times, not always a safe one.Have read that many owners rig a bungee cord to hold the latch closed. I realize it can be adjusted though the plastic bits and means of adjustment seem really Marginal to me. maybe I haven’t spent enough time playing with it. I don’t like the motor noise. (Lol) I’m hoping the drive will be faster, which would help a bit off the wind in rougher conditions, which is also when it unlatches. Again to be fair I sometimes carry quite a bit of sail, part of the fun for me. I guess in the end it doesn’t seem as bulletproof or effective as the other work or upgrades I’ve done, (which, to your point, come at a price) and I don’t quite trust it. It it fails and I’m solo that would be a real nuisance for me, and I’m progressing through longer passages in more challenging conditions as I learn. I welcome any comments or suggestions. Dave Sent from my iPad > On Oct 12, 2019, at 6:13 PM, Paul Fountain wrote: > > Dave, > > Interested why you feel the current unit needs to be replaced. We put the ray > system you have on Perception our 33-ll 3 years ago when we upgraded our > electronics so far it’s performed as well as the Navico wheel pilot it > replaced, and as Dennis has said they work well! With our short season I > could not justify the expense and effort to put in the octopus unit, which I > really wanted to use. > > Used the saved funds towards the rest of the electronics upgrade. > > Paul > From: CnC-List on behalf of Dave S via > CnC-List > Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 11:13:56 AM > To: C Stus List > Cc: Dave S > Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine to octopus drive upgrade - UPDATE > > Had an exchange (after some effort) with the folks at octopus drives and > here’s the result: > > > >>> >>> >>> The boat is a 1985 C 33 mkii, and it displaces around 10,000 lbs. it is >>> currently fitted with a 2015 Raymarine ev100 wheelpilot system. This >>> system includes a control unit - the acu-100 - which can provide 7A of >>> current to a drive unit. the acu-100 has provision for a rudder position >>> sensor, but one is not currently installed. It does not have electrical >>> connections for a clutch. >>> I am not happy with the wheel drive for a variety of reasons and would like >>> to install a below-deck linear drive. >>> Unfortunately, Most larger and especially hydraulic drives require more >>> than the 7A current available from the ev-100, meaning I would have to >>> upgrade to a larger unit (acu) in addition to acquiring the drive itself >>> and hardware. >>> >>> It appears however that the octopus RS drive is designed more or less for >>> this sort of application, though I do have some questions and have been >>> unable to find consistent application information. >>> >>> -Is this drive compatible with the Raymarine system described above? >>> No it is not, I believe the EV100 does not have a solenoid/clutch output.. >>> though the 7A max is no problem the EV200 would be the minimum requirement >>> -how does the clutch engage/disengage electrically? Would assume 12v >>> either engages or disengages the clutch, and this could be accomplished >>> with a switch if necessary. >>> Engaged and disengaged by the ECU >>> Is it even necessary given the “joggle the wheel” clutch disengagement >>> feature of the RS drive? (You could have the clutch engaged by the motor >>> voltage, then disengage manually in the absence of that voltage, if I >>> understand correctly) >>> It still requires a joggle of the wheel to disengage the pin activated by >>> the solenoid >>> - is this the drive your experts would recommend for this application? Is >>> there a better option? >>> This is the preferred drive for smaller displacement sailboats due to its >>> lower amp draw and less wheel resistance compared to the hydraulic linear >>> drives >>> -Any other advice? >>> Upgrade to a EV200 or any other pilot with clutch/solenoid output >>> ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Raymarine to octopus drive upgrade - UPDATE
Dave, Interested why you feel the current unit needs to be replaced. We put the ray system you have on Perception our 33-ll 3 years ago when we upgraded our electronics so far it’s performed as well as the Navico wheel pilot it replaced, and as Dennis has said they work well! With our short season I could not justify the expense and effort to put in the octopus unit, which I really wanted to use. Used the saved funds towards the rest of the electronics upgrade. Paul From: CnC-List on behalf of Dave S via CnC-List Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 11:13:56 AM To: C Stus List Cc: Dave S Subject: Re: Stus-List Raymarine to octopus drive upgrade - UPDATE Had an exchange (after some effort) with the folks at octopus drives and here’s the result: The boat is a 1985 C 33 mkii, and it displaces around 10,000 lbs. it is currently fitted with a 2015 Raymarine ev100 wheelpilot system. This system includes a control unit - the acu-100 - which can provide 7A of current to a drive unit. the acu-100 has provision for a rudder position sensor, but one is not currently installed. It does not have electrical connections for a clutch. I am not happy with the wheel drive for a variety of reasons and would like to install a below-deck linear drive. Unfortunately, Most larger and especially hydraulic drives require more than the 7A current available from the ev-100, meaning I would have to upgrade to a larger unit (acu) in addition to acquiring the drive itself and hardware. It appears however that the octopus RS drive is designed more or less for this sort of application, though I do have some questions and have been unable to find consistent application information. -Is this drive compatible with the Raymarine system described above? No it is not, I believe the EV100 does not have a solenoid/clutch output.. though the 7A max is no problem the EV200 would be the minimum requirement -how does the clutch engage/disengage electrically? Would assume 12v either engages or disengages the clutch, and this could be accomplished with a switch if necessary. Engaged and disengaged by the ECU Is it even necessary given the “joggle the wheel” clutch disengagement feature of the RS drive? (You could have the clutch engaged by the motor voltage, then disengage manually in the absence of that voltage, if I understand correctly) It still requires a joggle of the wheel to disengage the pin activated by the solenoid - is this the drive your experts would recommend for this application? Is there a better option? This is the preferred drive for smaller displacement sailboats due to its lower amp draw and less wheel resistance compared to the hydraulic linear drives -Any other advice? Upgrade to a EV200 or any other pilot with clutch/solenoid output ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Raymarine to octopus drive upgrade - UPDATE
Had an exchange (after some effort) with the folks at octopus drives and here’s the result: >> >> >> The boat is a 1985 C 33 mkii, and it displaces around 10,000 lbs. it is >> currently fitted with a 2015 Raymarine ev100 wheelpilot system. This system >> includes a control unit - the acu-100 - which can provide 7A of current to a >> drive unit. the acu-100 has provision for a rudder position sensor, but one >> is not currently installed. It does not have electrical connections for a >> clutch. >> I am not happy with the wheel drive for a variety of reasons and would like >> to install a below-deck linear drive. >> Unfortunately, Most larger and especially hydraulic drives require more than >> the 7A current available from the ev-100, meaning I would have to upgrade to >> a larger unit (acu) in addition to acquiring the drive itself and hardware. >> >> It appears however that the octopus RS drive is designed more or less for >> this sort of application, though I do have some questions and have been >> unable to find consistent application information. >> >> -Is this drive compatible with the Raymarine system described above? >> No it is not, I believe the EV100 does not have a solenoid/clutch output.. >> though the 7A max is no problem the EV200 would be the minimum requirement >> -how does the clutch engage/disengage electrically? Would assume 12v either >> engages or disengages the clutch, and this could be accomplished with a >> switch if necessary. >> Engaged and disengaged by the ECU >> Is it even necessary given the “joggle the wheel” clutch disengagement >> feature of the RS drive? (You could have the clutch engaged by the motor >> voltage, then disengage manually in the absence of that voltage, if I >> understand correctly) >> It still requires a joggle of the wheel to disengage the pin activated by >> the solenoid >> - is this the drive your experts would recommend for this application? Is >> there a better option? >> This is the preferred drive for smaller displacement sailboats due to its >> lower amp draw and less wheel resistance compared to the hydraulic linear >> drives >> -Any other advice? >> Upgrade to a EV200 or any other pilot with clutch/solenoid output >> ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
